Chiefs are giving franchise DT Chirs Jones a four-year, $85 million deal that includes $60 million in guarantees, per source.
— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) July 14, 2020
Good teams don’t let top players leave. The Kansas City Chiefs might be the best run franchise in the NFL currently.
It’s easy to say that when you’re winning games with Patrick Mahomes at quarterback. Yet this is the organisation that saw the talent in Mahomes that others (Chicago) didn’t and traded up to get a player who could, potentially, be the best quarterback we’ve ever seen. They had the foresight to sit him for a year behind a superb mentor in Alex Smith. They built around him with an arsenal of weapons.
They needed to improve the defense and were pro-active trading for Frank Clark and signing Tyrann Mathieu. The end result? A Super Bowl championship.
In recent articles we noted they easily had the cap space to retain Chris Jones. So it proved. Now, if nothing else, their defensive unit will include Jones and Clark for the foreseeable future. With a highly dynamic offense — that’ll always give them a chance.
The Seahawks, in comparison, do not base their entire offensive scheme around the quarterback. They clearly value Wilson extremely highly. Yet it’s understandable why Wilson would be slightly jealous of the power and control Mahomes has in KC.
Seattle’s biggest recent investments in terms of weapons are signing a 35-year-old tight end and drafting D.K. Metcalf in round two (after L.J. Collier and Marquise Blair, mind). Compare that to the multiple high draft picks and free agent signings the Chiefs have invested in.
The Seahawks revamped their offensive line this year but have done so with a cast of backups and projects.
On defense they haven’t made any significant trades like the Chiefs did with Clark. Neither have they retained their best defensive lineman. Kansas City paid up for Jones. The Seahawks didn’t for Clowney — which is fine. Nobody else paid up either. Yet they didn’t go after a viable alternative and now they’re relying on Benson Mayowa and Bruce Irvin to solve a major issue.
Wilson clearly wants them to sign Antonio Brown. Earlier this year he campaigned for Clowney to re-sign. He asked for stars. He wants to see this team being more like the Chiefs. He’s not blind to the issues. If you’re prepared to look critically at the situation, you’ll see the issues too. Seattle has not done a good enough job addressing their roster and improving their team this off-season.
The quarterback wants to win.
Are the Seahawks providing him with the best possible opportunity to win?
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One more hope is now gone. Good for KC, clearly JS is not doing stuff right. We should have atleast Frank clark signed :(. Let’s hope we do right thing here on.
The problem Seattle has is they clearly decided not to pay Clark & Clowney. Fine. But you have to replace players like that. You can’t just drift along, hoping late first round draft picks and players like Benson Mayowa are going to get it done.
What you end up with is a weaker team.
The Seahawks have been the opposite of pro-active this year. They haven’t addressed their issues. They haven’t done a good enough job. And I suspect the QB will be fairly pissed off about that.
It’s troubling to me that this is the second year they’ve really neglected to address the DL. Is this a trend now?
Last year they traded Clark away and were seemingly content with starting the year with rookie Collier, a 6 game gap in their roster (Reed), super-green Green (pun intended), Jacob Martin and busted-shoulder Ziggy on the DL until the Clowney deal fell into their lap.
We asked in 2019 if we were going to see a similar apathy to the DL in 2020. We’ll be asking that again in spring 2021. Will there be a better answer next offseason?
It’s a good question that must be asked.
Because if this is an issue unaddressed in two off-seasons, why wouldn’t it be three? And at what point do fans, seemingly like the QB, start to ask why more isn’t being done?
The idea that the Seahawks would be penciling in Green and Collier for significant roles was laughable 4 months ago. But here we are.
We have a saying at Texas A&M, do something once, it is a trend, do it twice and it is tradition. Here’s hoping that this is not going to be a new tradition for the Seahawks.
how is doing something one time a trend?
Aggieland…go figure! đ
I think the idea behind the quote is that it doesn’t take long for something to become the norm.
KC can do this because they are not paying anyone else yet. They have 2 DL, 1 LB, 1SS, both OTs, RB, WR, TE, and QB that are now getting paid like high level performers and only 1DL, 1LB, 1G, 1RB, a C and a CB at the journeyman mid level of 2-7M against the cap. This means 14 of 23 starters (NCB and WLB are both starters to me) are getting paid and they will not be getting draft picks going forward to replenish high end talent and in 2021 they will only have 2DL, 1LB, 1SS, 1RB, 1TE, and 2OT high end and at 200M against the cap with 1G, 1LB, 1S, 1C, 1CB 1RB at the Journeyman level. 200M for 14 players and without a WR, or CB getting paid more than 3M and only one getting more than 1.2M with a backloaded Maholmes contract.
Seahawks are paying for the length of time they have been good and have 28 players over 1.2M and are spending 20M less than KC.
Q: Are the Seahawks providing him with the best possible opportunity to win?
A: Nope.
Who is left on the open market? Any defensive tackles? I assume they are done at end.
Just the usual suspects… Snacks Harrison, Brandon Mebane etc.
Jones gone now plus Cleveland is extending Myles Garrett – 5yrs $125m. Teams really value their star lineman these days. Last minute trade with Jacksonville or Baltimore for one of their tagged edge rushers before the deadline tomorrow not likely? Clowney and Griffen talks don’t seem to be happening? Looks like our best/only bet is to grow our own talent in Taylor, Green, Collier, and Robinson. Don’t think that is going to get it done. Headscratcher that KC can afford Mahomes, Jones, Clark, Honey Badger, Watkins, Kelce, Hill etc. Just goes to show it is magic money-you can sign anyone and everyone if you just manipulate the cap if their really is one.
There won’t be any last minute trades.
This offseason has been one of the most disappointing in recent years. Our best addition is Quinton Dunbar who may be arrested and/or suspended from the league…
We missed on Clowney and Yannick. Did not sign AB. Most likely wont get Jamal Adams. Pete just seems like he is just happy with the current roster… I am sad to say but dont see the Hawks returning to the SB anytime soon.. Mediocre playoff seasons aren’t enough and may not help us as fast as a rebuild.
I really feel like this is the last season for Pete and John. The 2012 draft was 8 years ago. Their time has come and gone IMO.
Keep in mind this is a front office that spent $13 million on Luke Joekel and Eddie Lacy a couple years ago when they could have had Calais Campbell for $10 million in first year cap money. There is no magic with this team any more, just a lot of reaches, failed draft picks, and misses.
I keep seeing people suggesting it’s the last year for Pete and John.
Who’s making that decision then?
Jody Allen is not going to fire Pete Carroll and John Schneider. So unless you think they’re both going to resign and give up millions — or in Pete’s case retire — then this isn’t happening. They will both be in Seattle until they decide to move on or a new owner buys the team. They made Russell Wilson the highest paid player in the league a year ago. Pete Carroll is not going to retire two years into that new contract with Wilson in his peak.
I don’t think John Schneider will go anywhere.
But I do think, that he needs to evaluate the coaching and scouting staff, a.s.a.p
Jody Allen, finally, is not deeply entrenched in the Seahawks, and my lead the foundation to sell’em sooner than later.
If Bezos acquires them, he will consider winning forever vs. winning a title. PC would be out before he can count to three.
John Schneider has zero control on the coaching. Pete Carroll is the VP of football operations and in complete control. Carroll makes every call on coaches and staff.
Scouting? That’s different. But maybe the process is as much of a problem as the scouting?
Hypothetical situations where the Allen’s sell, Bezos buys and then projecting how he’d feel about Pete Carroll doesn’t really get us anywhere.
John Schneider’s draft picks are more of the reason why the Seahawks have mediocre talent than is Pete Carroll’s coaching. The only reason this team has a chance to win in ’20 is because of the QB – because the rest of the “talent” on the team does not equal a .500 club. Not even close.
“because the rest of the âtalentâ on the team does not equal a .500 club”
Dunbar, Diggs, Griffin, McDougald plus Blair /Amadi/Flowers.. That’s a top ten maybe to 5 secondary. Yep, Schneider. Do you disagree that the talent is well above average? Tell me 5 secondaries that you think have more talent…
Wagner, Wright is a top 3 LB pair, and Brooks is one of the best tablets and fasten defenders drafted at the position in the last two years. It’s a top 10, arguably top 5 LB group, thanks to JS. Do you disagree that the talent is is well above average? Tell me 5 LB groups that you think have more talent…
Penny, Carson, Hyde is one of the best RB groups in the league, maybe the best top 3. All brought on by Schneider… Do you disagree that the talent is well above average? Tell me 5 more talented groups at the position…
Will Dissly is one of the most talented young TEs. Greg Olsen is one of the best TEs of the last decade and has a decent healthy season last year receiving balls from the worst station QB in the NFL. Add Hollister and Parkinson… It’s one of the 10 most talented TE groups in the NFL. if you disagree, tell me 10 teams that habe more pure talent at the position…
Tyler Lockett has been the most consistently efficient WR for the last two seasons.
DK was a top there rookie WR, and a Schneider pick. He set the all time nfl record for rookie performance on a playoff game… That looks like a top ten 1-2 punch at WR. Tell me 10 more talented top 1-2 combos in the NFL…
OL looks like a mystery because of the unknowns, but Brown was brought in for Jeremy Lame and a 2nd round pick, and signed to an extension that looks cheap as all get out. BJ finney was the best non franchise free agent OC on the market, signed for cheap. Damien Lewis was the best OL on the best OL in college football. That’s fair talent at 3 spots. We’re are 15 players on the roster to fit the other 2 starting spots…I’m pretty sure they can replace Fluker and Ifedi level performance, and center can only be better than last season.
Hate on DL as much as you want… You might be right and you might be wrong.
Other than DL, tell me again how there is NO TALENT on this team. Compared to the rest of the NFL… I just don’t see the pessimism about the talent on this team…
I don’t think Bobby’s point is that there’s ‘no’ talent on the team.
I think his point is quite fair. Wilson elevates what would otherwise be quite a poor looking roster overall into a playoff team.
He says the team has mediocre talent, and that their talent besides Wilson is not even close to a 0.500 team.
I pointed out that each of the three offensive skill positions, WR, RB, TE, are quite a bit above average and filled with talent, and that the LB and secondary grips are likewise quite a bit above average and filled with talent.
All of those position groups look like the talent you’d want for a playoff run (regardless of the uncertainty and pessimism about the OL and the well earned cynicism about the DL).
Fire Schneider is becoming a thing, but I think it’s because they focus on the misses, especially the public ones, instead of looking at the gross number of successes.
Even though this team doesn’t have a premier pass rusher, and will have to do some significant scheming to get close to 40 sacks, this team has a tremendous amount of talent. Aside from Wilson, there are 17 players that would start or have a 1b role on any team in the NFL (Brown, Lewis, Carson, Penny, Lockett, Metcalf, Olsen, Dissly, Reed, Ford, Wagner, Wright, Brooks, Dunbar, Diggs, Griffin, McDougald). That is a lot of talent compared to other NFL teams.
You seem to be taking his suggestion that the team has mediocre talent and interpreting that to mean they have no talent, though. Which isn’t correct. Even the Bengals who had the #1 pick this year had some talent. The roster, overall, isn’t very good. There are glaring weaknesses too. Russell Wilson however is fantastic and covers a lot of warts. That’s a perfectly fair opinion to have.
And no, ‘fire Schneider’ is not becoming a thing. Questioning and critiquing a poor off-season is a thing.
“There’s a lot of talent if you don’t count the OL and DL”
Gotcha.
Not saying the Hawks aren’t a good team at all. They will likely make the playoffs again but then will he eliminated in the second round or so. If we are to actually make a deep dive in the playoffs we need some truly game-changer like players and/or some major progression from players on the team (pro bowl minimum but all-pro like development).
Russ alone will give us a shot in the playoffs. He needs more support though, especially on the OL. Aaron Donald, Chandler Jones, Nick Bosa + Company is what he will be facing just in the division. BWagz and our secondary need help on the DL. Our defense was near the bottom of the league last year if you dont remember. Dunbar was a good trade however he is facing some really bad criminal offenses. If he is unable to play, do you really see our defense getting significantly better? Yeah, we made some cheap good value signings this offseason. But we have not really added a major difference maker (aside from Dunbar who may not play this year).
And “better than average” is not enough for a SB run. We need to be elite at multiple positions and impactful. When we won and returned SB next year… We had a probowl QB, superstar RB, better than average WR (ADB was a beast btw), average TE, average OL. Our DL was deep and pro bowl level, superstars at LB, super-superstars at DB.
Now, our superstars are just at QB, MLB and SS (maybe). The teams that win SBs are loaded with multiple elite players who can really change the game. If your bar for success is making the playoffs and making it to the second round or so we are good enough for that. But are we good enough to really beat the elite teams in the NFL? With the lack of moves they have made this year, I don’t think so. Russ will always give us a shot- but if its anything like last year’s playoff loss- he will have to score like every possession in order to keep us in the game.
We can agree that the constant fumbling on first and second round picks doesn’t help. But I come to think those players are as much coaches darlings as you can get. With the exception of Collier, who was a panic move, IMO.
But even if the blame lays squarely at JS (which means he has to redo scouting, anyway)…
Still, I don’t get why Seahawks RBs are injured as a rule. I don’t get why we let Baldwin walk and don’t use the replacement in the slot until virtually the last play of the season, prompting a vital first down. I don’t get our incapability to screen.
I don’t get why tackling is that lazy with players who were good tacklers at college. I don’t get why Barton still plays after being a lazy tackler, while BBK sits on the bench getting no equal chance.
I don’t get why we have a bottom 5 run D, while also featuring the best LB corps in the league. I don’t get why the pass rush having two former pro bowlers was not able to take off.
There are many other things, and all of them are coaching.
And you’re right, RW abilities are enforcing enough lucky punches to stay afloat. And luck we had. Had Greg-the-Leg punched that late FG in the first Rams game, we wouldn’t have seen the playoffs.
Hat’s off to the Chiefs, they are killing it right now. Fortunately they are in the AFC.
I think the Chiefs are just as thin and have holes just like the Seahawks. They have 1 WR 1CB both are potential pro bowl selections but not top ten by any means. They are built around speed and the edges of the trenches and spend their money getting cheap speed the ball and the line going up in spend as it moves to the edge. They also are spending to win in the next 1-2 years then purge while the Seahawks are on the tail end of the rebuild if 50% of the high draft choices pan out as starters with 1-2 exceptional which has been the success rate for Schneider over any 4 year period.
What makes me a little sick to my stomach is how good a job Lynch is doing in SF and if he can ever get a real QB instead of a presnap read QB the NFC west is screwed.
The Chiefs are far stronger across their roster.
This has by far been my least favorite offseason in a while. Watching the Cards steal Hopkins would have been a pipe dream move for us. Don’t love that, then to watch the Clowney situation explode in our face. I want super stars too! can’t blame Wilson for wanting that. At this point, I hope they can some how manage to get Clowney back. Brown is a head case but if he can pull it together then I’m in for the signing. But I’m not optimistic about him or Gordon. Not to mention my season tickets were refunded cause of covid. Weird off-season followed by a weird season.
I have this feeling we’re going to look back at the Wilson Seahawks like the Brees Saints. Great franchises in the non-Belichick division, HOF QB, one championship, and questions about not maximizing the opportunity of having a HOF QB.
I know there are more chances for Super Bowl wins for both, but I feel like both teams didn’t or haven’t reached their potential despite all the success.
Except in fairness to the Saints theyâve traded up for players, filled out their roster, given Brees the status Mahomes more or less has in KC.
Totally agree about the differences in how the two teams build their teams and focus on the HOF QB, both on and off the field. I was more thinking about outcomes rather than approach.
On the plus side for the Seahawks, at least they haven’t payed their players (that we know of publicly) to injure other teams’ players. Looking at the W/L for the Saints … hard to prove it’s the reason, but they have 4 7-9 seasons following their punishment.
Edit: 4 7-9 seasons out of 5 seasons. There was the 11-5 year where they lost in the playoffs to the eventual Super Bowl winning Seahawks.
The Saints have been doing their best to get back to the big dance for years now and Sean is an amazing coach. For some reason something manages to dis-rail them and I don’t think it is all their fault. They are always in the top quarter of the NFC, not to mention the whole league.
The current Saints have had more misfortune in the playoffs than any team probably ever.
Could not agree more, especially incompetent officiating
It’s kind of a miracle that the Seahawks keep getting to the playoffs when their are no easy opponents in our division.
The ‘easy opponents’ days are over — IMHO, the Hawks are destined for .500 (or worse) seasons for the next years … not much to show for our Rd.1 or Rd.2 draft picks for the past few years.
Not that I’m one to defend Schneider’s first few rounds of drafting since 2012 – but they did get DK last year. If there was a redraft today – he’d be a top 10 lock. But, yeah, they have been consistently quite mediocre for awhile.
Details
I don’t think there’s any question that the Seahawks have tried to build around Wilson. They made aggressive trades for Duane Brown, Jimmy Graham, Percy Harvin. They traded up in the draft for Metcalf, invested high round draft picks on multiple offensive linemen (Ifedi, Lewis, Britt, Pocic). They’ve been burned many times in trying to build around Wilson in an aggressive manner, but you can’t argue that they haven’t made it a priority or haven’t tried.
I don’t know how you can make the case that the Saints have invested in supporting Brees but the Seahawks haven’t invested in supporting Wilson. I don’t get that.
For starters, trading for Duane Brown is hardly ‘building around Wilson’. That’s simply called having an actual left tackle and not needing to start Rees Odhiambo any more. The fact they actually went into the season with Fant & Odhiambo as the two LT options is an overwhelming counter that they were ‘building around Wilson’. The Brown trade happened mid-season and could easily be described as a panic move, even if it’s nicely paid off.
Harvin was a Pete project. He’d wanted him since the USC days. Jimmy Graham was a reaction to the Super Bowl. You’ve listed all the O-liners they’ve drafted but that’s as much about needing players in those positions as it is ‘building around the QB’. They needed OL and weapons this year and drafted a linebacker with their top pick, despite spending $25m on two LB’s already this year.
Now go and look at the money New Orleans has thrown at its O-line, the aggressive trade-up moves, the way Brees and the HC are tied at the hip, the weapons he’s had.
You could easily apply all of those rationales you mentioned to other teams, such as the Chiefs, who have aggressively made moves that benefit their quarterback. I don’t disagree that they were desperate for a proper left tackle, and that influenced their decision to acquire Brown, but I don’t think they make that move if they don’t have an elite quarterback to protect.
Also, saying that they traded for Harvin simply because Pete wanted a new toy to play with is a bit silly and naive. All for Pete? Really??
Thankfully, I’m glad they didn’t reach for an Ifedi, Britt, or Pocic this year and instead found great value (fingers crossed) in Lewis. I don’t see the likes of Isaiah Wilson, Robert Hunt, or Ezra Cleveland as clear upgrades (tp this point) over the players they already have on the roster.
I think it’s also worth noting that Pete is more of a defensive minded coach when assessing his relationship with Wilson. On the other hand, I read many reports from when they hired Schotty that he and Wilson were working very closely a la Brees and Peyton.
Side note: While I whole-heartedly believe in everything I’ve said, I’m also playing a bit of devil’s advocate. I appreciate you indulging me.
You could easily apply all of those rationales you mentioned to other teams, such as the Chiefs, who have aggressively made moves that benefit their quarterback.
No you can’t. Aggressively trading for Clark and signing Mathieu to improve a bad defense is pro-active. The Seahawks haven’t done anything like that. Then look at the Chiefs long list of weapons, the experience and talent they have on their O-line. It’s miles apart. The Chiefs are doing everything it takes. Nobody could accuse the Seahawks of that.
Also, saying that they traded for Harvin simply because Pete wanted a new toy to play with is a bit silly and naive. All for Pete? Really??
A word of advice — accusing me of being ‘silly and naive’ just means you’re incapable of having an adult conversation. Especially when you put words in my mouth. I never said anything about ‘Pete wanting a new toy to play with’. I said he recruited him like crazy at USC and had always liked/wanted him. Which is a fact.
It was not my intent to be accusatory. I was simply intending to critique the argument, not disrespect you as a person. However, I was not considerate of the potential impact of my statement. My bad. I’ll slow my roll. I’m just bored.
Also wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth. It just seemed that calling him a “Pete project” insinuated that he was acquired simply for Pete to work with.
That’s a good point re: effort vs outcome.
Hawks draft an OT in the 1st it is Ifedi; Saints draft an OT in the 1st – Ramcyzk
Hawks draft a C in the 2nd – Pocic; Saints: McCoy
Hawks draft a WR in the 2nd – Richardson; Saints: Thomas
Hawks draft a RB in the 1st: Penny; Saints: Ingram
Hawks draft a RB in the 3rd: Procise; Saints: Kamara
Hawsk draft Britt as an OT in the late 2nd; Saints find OT Armstead in the 3rd.
Does it seem every single the Saints are right up against the cap yet figure out to get a guy .this year E Sanders and Jenkins both are over 30 but the roster says playoffs doesn’t it. Oh yeah J Winston as well .Micky Loomis is a genius on the cap gets guys to pay cuts or modify contracts somehow pulls it off every year
You can always compare to one of the best scouting staffs out there an loose out. The question here is, when and why did we finally lost our scouting mojo?
I think you’re mixing “building around RW” with “building a winning team”.
They had a top 5 offense and a bottom 5 defense and a middling special teams in 2020.
The best thing they could have done for RW this offseason was aggressively improve the defense. As Rob has pointed out, they could have overhauled their pass rush and opened up plenty of options in the draft to take another weapon for RW to play with.
But they didn’t.
Man, I know Iâm just feeling the affects of the quarantine and all the other negativity in the world. Plus Iâm just having a bad day. Can you guys ever remember in off-season so void a reason for genuine optimism or excitement?
I mean, I hope this draft class works out and as is loaded with young stars… but between that Dunbar situation, and lack of any kind of big move for Clowney or anyone else it just doesnât really get me moving. Like Rob says, a lot of retreads and bargain/journeyman guys, but it just seems like we need more.
I hear ya. I normally enjoy seeing all the moves and anticipating how players will work out. This year I donât feel nearly the same. Maybe this is also a side effect of more thorough knowledge of the team and players. Maybe ignorance did lead to happiness, lol. Hopefully things turn around for our team. Itâs a real buzzkill watching teams in the division making great moves while we make questionable ones.
That’s a big statement by the Chiefs. I think Jones is great – probably the best D-lineman in the league after Donald. Still – didn’t really think a team could have two $20M+ players on the same D-line, who do they have filling out that side of the ball?
Anyway – fully acknowledge this off-season has lacked punch, and I can’t disagree w the commentary on the failure to address the pass rush. But I’m not as ready as some to talk about how the franchise has failed Wilson – we’ve been mostly proactive over the years – yes you can say that Clowney, ‘fell into our laps’, but then you’d also have to say that Hopkins fell into the Cards laps, or Campbell fell to the Ravens.
Totally fair to ask questions about this off-season – but I think we are still one of the top-5 franchises in the league, and a lot of it is Russell, but it’s not a total one-man show.
I don’t think the franchise has failed Wilson. Not yet, anyway. But I don’t think they’re doing everything to provide him with the best opportunity to succeed.
Big difference. Clowney filled a huge, sorely needed spot that had been neglected. Hopkins and Campbell are great players being added to very good position groups already well built on their new teams.
Hopkins was ABSOLUTELY a gift. The price they paid for what they got….. #1 WRs are very hard to find and they (AZ) paid literally pennies on the dollar in draft capital. That is still one of the most shocking trades I can remember since…. possibly a famous Dallas one from the mid 1980s.
No, what I meant is that all those deals (clowney, hopkins, campbell) were total gifts – – there’s are probably a bunch of teams that would take those deals, but some team had the wherewithal to step up and make it happen.
Last year, it was us. We have tried to make some smart value proactive moves, Diggs and Dunbar are two (it’s not our fault what’s going on w Dunbar, no way to foresee that). But I do agree that the D-line is glaring.
I think the most likely story is what’s been posited on here before – we were pretty confident that we’d get a deal done w Clowney, and have been caught flatfooted without a plan B, when it didn’t. That’s a fail – no doubt about it.
I still think of Schneider as one of the smarter, more proactive GM’s around. Though I agree that he should not be above the criticisms some of you are making.
Here is what I know, JS has gotten the Seahawks players that got them into the win column more times than the rest of their history. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. There are other teams in the NFL that would kill for a GM even half as good as he has been….. *looking at Detroit*
I’m not saying the trade compensation wasn’t crazy. I was responding to the point raised that the Hawks are proactive.
I’m saying that the Hawks had no foresight to know Clowney would be available, and went into the year with QJ, Poona, Green, Collier, Ziggy, Jacob Martin and the decaying remains of Bark Mingo as their pass rush corps. WITH Clowney their pass rush was bottom 5 in the NFL.
That’s NOT being proactive. At all. Not even a little.
And Hopkins and Campbell werenât added right before the season to fill massive glaring holes.
The point is really that Seattle weâre going to start Mingo, Marsh and Martin as their pass rush in 2019 until Clowney fell out of the sky. The Ravensâ defense and Cardinals receiving group are nowhere near that desperate and both trades happened in the opening frame of free agency.
As I see what KC has done since the drafting of Mahomes, I see such a positive trend of progression and setting up for the future. Seattle looked like that between 2010 & 2012. Since then I feel the drafts have gotten “cuter”. The vet trades have been hit or miss and Free Agency has been uninspiring.
– I was one that didn’t mind the Harvin trade
– I hated the Jimmy Graham trade
– Sheldon Richardson HAD to happen after we drafted McDowell and that debacle happened
– JaDaveon Clowney & Quandre Diggs were good moves. Excited to see Diggs in 2020
We’ve made a bunch of depth/competition 1-yr deals and lost out on guys like Clark/Clowney. Rob has hit the nail on the head several times regarding this offseason and how we could’ve easily allocated money. I have to ask: What is the road forward? We are walking into 2020 with potentially 4 new starters on the OL (everyone but Brown), a plethora of guys that scream “part-timers” at the DE position and we traded for a CB that was suppose to be an upgrade over Flowers and the dum-dum and his friends couldn’t not potentially rob some guys at a party and then get caught bribing them to recant their story and bear false witness… I’m not a doom and gloom kind of guy, but if Rasheem Green and LJ Collier don’t like sh*t up, I’m gonna be pissed. Wagner is the best MLB in the game, KJ is on his last leg physically (IQ is there, but body can’t quite do what the brain wants it to at all times) and the secondary has some promise.
Things that I feel should still be addressed:
– If they still want Clowney back, can we get him to come back?
– Not saying we had a shot at getting Chris Jones, but now that he’s gone, do we call Snacks now?
– Do we offer AB a deal that is incentive-laden? (Availability & Performance)
– Is Dunbar going to be worth the headache? Do we cut bait and fill that hole?
I know its way to early to be thinking about things like this (but these are also things I don’t see KC having to worry about anytime soon):
– RB after 2020: Carson/Hyde will be FAs and Penny would have 1/2 a season after a significant injury
– OL Concerns: Brown isn’t getting younger. Lewis may be the ONLY long term solution we have
I bring these 2 things up because they will GREATLY affect the strength of this team: RUSSELL WILSON
Like most here on SDB Iâm left wondering what could have been about this offseason. I also find it interesting that Pete thinks they have actually addressed the weaknesses on the team. He thinks by adding a great tackling LB they have improved the run defense, and by adding Bruce, Mayowa, Taylor and Robinson they have fixed the pass rush. I like Bruce and Mayowa as situational guys but not as the main guys!
Only time will tell if Brooks, Taylor and Robinson can become above average players, but we know they arenât likely to greatly contribute in year one. Same can be said for Lewis on the OL.
So, I wonder if Pete really believes what heâs saying about having a much improved defense, or its more of Peteâs endless, but often misguided optimism? Iâm having a hard time seeing great improvement right now.
Get Clowney back, hope Dunbar can play, add a quality DT then maybe they can be a league average defense!
“I donât think the franchise has failed Wilson.”
Could this be a repeat of what the Packers have done with Aaron Rodgers?
Weâve been down this road before except it was our star offensive linemen who the front office didnât want to pay. We shipped Unger, let Okung walk & the OL descended below a functional level of play. Fast forward and we ship Clark & are poised to let Clowney walk.
In âAggie speakâ that is now considered a tradition.
Agree with everyone’s sentiments that the Seahawks off-season seems to show little in the way of a concrete plan moving forward. Just makes no sense overall and seems like after the Clowney thing threw off their plans, and maybe the virus/salary cap uncertainty too, they decided to just go conservative and save their money for next year.
It just made me think of an old pinball machine at a pizza parlor I used to go to as a kid. When you pressed the buttons without putting in any coins, a female voice would say: “You wanna play? You gotta pay.”
Seems like teams like the Chiefs, Ravens, and even 49ers are telling that to the Seahawks right now.
Why we refuse to pony up for good players (Clark, Clowney) but have no problem over-paying for older depth/reclamation guys is baffling to me. You can’t hit a home run every at bat, but you can still score by stringing together enough singles and doubles, together with one or two heavy hitters in the lineup. Are they stuck on trying to make every negotiation a steal?
Agree 100% Seamode. Wonder if it has anything to do with new ownership structure. There were no long term deals and almost no real guarenteed $ in the deals they did this off season.
What this Chris Jones immediately after the Mahomes signing tells me is that in the NFL the cap means almost nothing if you are willing to be flexible in how you structure contracts. Rob has been saying this for years and I think this is a prime example.
It also makes the trading away of Clark even more bafflling. Clark was a guy who they traded up to get. Took a huge public image hit with because of his background then proceeded to develop into a star at an absolutely critical postion in Peteâs defense. If there was eve anyone they were going to resign to a big deal I thought it would have been Clark. He was a dog and brought an edge as well. When they traded him I thought there had to be an off feild issue or something but apparently not. I personally think it was one of the biggest mistakes in the PC / JS era and one which this defense has still not recovered from. The glaring hole as edge / pass rusher is going to be need #1 next off season as well making it 3 years in a row.
Could the Hawks unwillingness to pay Clark and now to spend any real $ on long term deals this off season have anything to do with the new ownership structure. I personally think it almost has to and if not PC/ JS have really dropped the ball and have to be held accountable for a roster that has gotten worse or at the very best merely treaded water for years now.
I still make the Clark trade.
Not replacing his production with a 1st, 2nd and $20 million is the problem.
When you draft and develop the player why take the chance though and even have to try and replace the production?
IMO, arguments for overpays and 3rd contracts indicate an understandable lack of confidence in the FO to draft, develop and sign good players.
The Clark trade was good process, but our opinion of it has been influenced by Ziggy Ansah and LJ Collier.
As a standalone argument I suppose that’s valid.
But in the midst of a SB window with a franchise QB, trading your best rusher with no viable candidate to immediately replace the production anytime soon is questionable at best.
What would have 2019 played out like if the Seahawks had Clark and Clowney on the DL? Answer: A heck of a lot better than Clowney and Ziggy.
IMO, they’re not in ‘the midst of a SB window.’
I don’t know at this point. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but…
The Hawks 2019 cap hit for Ziggy+Collier was bigger than Clark’s cap hit with KC. ($10m to $6.5m)
Clark’s 2020 KC cap hit is $19.3m. I can think of a handful of ways the Hawks could have made that work.
Ha. Sorry, should have refreshed.
In a lot of ways the Cheifs are at where the Seahawks were at in their best years.
Theyve got a HOF coach with a roster perfectly suited to what he does best, and also possibly the best player ever. I suspect they’ll be the envy of the league for some time to come.
True. They got it all laid out. Only thing that can stop em is injuries. Its what killed the Seahawk dynasty as much as anything else. Mahomes, Hill, and Kelce have all been hurt for long periods the past few years.
Injuries . . but also ego and attrition. You win SB’s and other teams start poaching away your coaches, and overpaying your 2nd tier players. It’s also hard to maintain any depth when you have to pay your stars top dollar.
And then, as happened with us, there can be internal implosions too, as players battle for recognition and credit for the success. Hard to have a dynasty in the NFL, most teams get 5-yr windows, and then you have to keep re-loading, esp on defense.
But yeah, they’re sure set up nicely for the next few years, that’s for sure. Should be some great battles w the Ravens.
Listen to John Clayton and Pete conversation, Pete as we know was upbeat and expects Defense to improve with Benson Mayoua and Bruce Irvin. Are we missing anything here? Should we surprised if we have Hawks can get 50 sacks (28 in 2019) and good pressure with some improved play call and performance?
We know Pete is always optimistic but he know defense and get best with his skills. Maybe I’m giving myself a hope đ
Nothing wrong with giving one’s self some hope. However, 50 sacks would be a miracle. I read this article the other day from Joe Fann that may be of interest.
https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/seattle-seahawks/yay-or-nay-seahawks-defense-will-record-40-sacks-2020
Pete no doubt said similar things about Ziggy Ansah a year ago.
Words are nothing. We know how bad the pass rush is.
he sure was DONE by the time he got to us.
Well said, that sums up well.
So what you are saying is that all Seattle has to do is sign Clowney, Brown and Gordon and we’re good. đ
If we sign Clowney, and either of Gordon or Brown (got to figure Gordon happens if he’s reinstated and we don’t sign AB) — i’m not feeling that bad about things.
The Mayowa/Irvin help looks paltry by itself, but if it’s complementary to Clowney, then it’s better than what we had last year.
And our skill positions should be improved over last year as well.
Mayowa and Irvin bring in 8 sacks each. That’s a single sack less than the 45m Jones-Clark-combo. Clowney had a meagre 3.
IMO, they try to moneyball here. Which could work out or not.
I think it won’t work as long as there is no clear top dawg DT anchoring the DL. Dareus and Harrison are still available.
Waiting out Clowney has brought us nothing but offseason inaction. Enough of that crap.
It’s not about sacks.
What if Bruce Irvin gets half of those eight sacks in garbage time in losing efforts? He gets eight sacks but what is he actually bringing to the team?
The point is the Jones/Clark combo bring consistent pressure and demand focus in game-planning and game execution. How many teams are going to be having sleepless nights thinking about facing Mayowa and Bruce?
None. The answer is none.
I don’t say I like what they do or think it will work. I wanted to opinionated, that all their actions indicate a somewhat one-dimensional “let’s buy pressure” thinking.
And this is indeed the essence of moneyballing.
To be entirely fair, we played two former pro bowlers last season, and it was still a nightmare. Even the Bengals were completely unafraid.
There has to be more to the problem.
I think anyone suggesting this was a masterplan ‘moneyball’ style is being incredibly generous.
They specifically stated, numerous times, that retaining Jadeveon Clowney was a huge priority. They also, reportedly, offered him a significant contract albeit one he wasn’t interested in having misjudged his market.
What we’ve seen is, in my opinion, damage limitations. They’ve added what they can because Plan A (and maybe Plan B and C) didn’t come off. They signed two players who are familiar with the scheme and then had to trade up in round two to add another player. This isn’t moneyball. This is reacting to a major problem and trying to add bodies.
The thing about Moneyball that seems too frequently glossed over (it’s not even mentioned in the movie!) is the As enjoyed a massive advantage in their starting trio of pitchers. Mulder-Zito-Hudson logged 57 wins for about $2.2million total in salary.
Barry Zito took home the AL Cy Young at $500k.
By comparison, Randy Johnson took the NL CY for $13.5m.
It’s very romantic to talk about a scrappy team winning with a bunch of spare parts, and no doubt they deserve a lot of credit for putting together a cohesive team strategy that pushed them over the top. But they had developed some serious cheap young star power that propelled them so far.
As much as I’d like them to, the Hawks have not been able to do that on the DL to near the level of the Moneyball A’s.
Rob,
Several teams are doing the Chiefs strategy of wear out your starters and expose your depth. I think KC built their team that way as well with a large rotation of rushers as the largest spend on defense by far. This strategy completely won the Superbowl as a high play count with extended plays throughout left the Niners gassed midway through the 3rd quarter and that is when the speed on offense showed what it could do.
The Seahawks have approached countering this with a efficient offense that runs a lot to reduce the total snap count in the game keeping their superstars valuable instead of exhuasted. It works as long as they can get the first downs but backfires if the start slow like the last few years due to the O-Line and TE issues.
In your opinion do you prefer Andy Reids approach of buy into the trend and spend your money on depth at the positions that either don’t get tired or make the other team tired and rotate lower tier but high athleticism bodies in a gameplan to wear out the other team or Pete’s approach of paying for special players and shrinking the game to maximize the value of each snap with better players?
I don’t have a preferred approach and to be honest, I’m not sure this is the best way to describe Reid & Carroll’s approaches to team building and philosophy.
I just know the Seahawks had a collection of things they needed to get done this off-season and they whiffed.
Oh my..
Of course the Titans are going to get hammered now by all the twats on Twitter.
But if they’d let Henry walk, either this year or next, and put everything on Ryan Tannehill — people would be questioning them anyway. At least if the end result was what you’d expect from a team relying on Tannehill. One of the main reasons the Titans’ offense functioned as well as it did on their run last season was because Henry is really talented. If this doesn’t work out, so what? There’s nothing wrong with keeping your best players of which Henry is undoubtedly one. Not every move has to be analysed as if every player at every position possesses the same level of value. That is a severely limiting and stupid debate that I suspect twitter is about to have.
I actually thought it was a good deal for both parties. The guy is a beast and together with Tannehill, it should be the base of a really good offense. I know most people don’t like Ryan but I do, and not just because he is an Aggie. We’ll see if last season was an outlier but I bet it wasn’t.
Glad I don’t do twitter! đ
I think two years is a guaranteed is a great deal for both. Gets some injury / decline protection and he can hit the market again and have choices if he wants.
That was my thinking too, Cha. He is worth 12.5M/yr for the next 2 years and after that, knowing how tough it is for RBs to have longevity, it seems like a good balance.
*Twatter
ROTFLMAO! Perfect!
That’s what most of us call it over here in Yorkshire!
It seems like Twitter NFL analytics treats player value static across teams. I had to socially distance myself from Twitter. One thing I’ve learned from baseball analytics is that a player’s value can vary dramatically, depending on a team’s need and the increased likelihood of playoff success.
In this case, one could argue that Henry means more to the Titans RB position and the Titans chance to win the SB than he does to any other team. To the Cowboys or Giants, Henry has, essentially, $0 value and to the Titans he’s worth 4/$50 (or whatever the “true” value of the contract is). Both numbers can be seen as reasonable.
Exactly.
Yes, hindsight and all, but there’s NO WAY I don’t pay Frank. We were rewarded with a top 10 talent by being willing to dig deeper into the situation than other teams and take a shot on him. In my mind, that’s exactly the kind of talent you want to spend your cap space in.
Getting a late R1 + R2 was nice, especially in a year when we desperately needed more picks, but nobody of Clark’s level was ever likely to be available in late R1, and the only eventual options would be to either hope lightning strikes twice in the draft or to overpay a lesser player, which we are basically facing now.
And now after Myles Garrett gets $25m/apy just a year later and other top rushers will follow suit, Clark’s $20.8m/apy doesn’t look bad at all, even for those who argued he shouldn’t be paid as an elite rusher. Besides the fact that Rob has pointed out so many times that his year one cap hit was very manageable and we easily could have fit it in.
IMO it wasn’t a great idea at the time and still hurts now, unless they had serious reason to believe there would be motivational issues after he got paid. And our DL and defense as a whole lost a lot of its “dog mentality” when he walked out the door.
Would we still have been able to get Clowney if we paid Frank? Who knows. But as of right now, we gave up the chance to keep Frank and then sent a R3 and R5 pick for a one-year rental and have neither of them moving forward.
Yeah, the way everything has shaken out – you’re not wrong. I wish we had paid him too. And the other way to look at it (hindsight aided) is that you know the Chiefs have no regrets w how it worked out.
I suppose the fair thing to do is see how our 1st and 2nd round picks perform this year – and to also factor in the 2nd next year. But RW ain’t getting any younger.
With hindsight, it was a massive own goal trading Frank Clark. It simply created a huge gaping hole in the roster. Rather than adding to what they had in 2018, they’ve been playing catch-up ever since. They’ve gone from having one terrific pass rusher to having none. They had to pump draft resource into trying to fix the issue but Collier doesn’t look like he’s solving any problems and we’ll see with Taylor.
As you say, the picks probably felt appealing in a year without many. The great D-line draft class also probably gave them confidence. But they badly misjudged the way the draft would fall and thus the situation. And now we’re left with what is, bluntly, a mess.
It seems surreal that we were (rightly) talking about the Hawks needing to improve their pass rush after the 2018 season, with Clark coming off a 13 sack year and Reed a 10.5 sack year. Little did we know 2019 was going to be so rough and 2020 isn’t shaping up to be much better.
literally no one has hope on L J Collier. Is he that bad? He might turn out decent if not star. Possible?
He could still be yes. But this place is not really one of projection. People want to see the production first, or at least improvement. No shame in that. Its the same thing with Rasheem Green, who i think will have a good year. Collier still the same guy as when they drafted him. Heavy hands, inside /outside guy, limited counter moves. Was not gonna be a 13 sack guy, but maybe 6 with inside pressure. If anything, without Clowney, Green and Collier going to have a ton of opportunity.
That’s the thing Ashish – we don’t remotely have answers to those questions. Granted Collier was a rookie, and hurt last year. But he was a healthy scratch way more than a first round pick needed to be. And when he played his name was rarely called.
I still have a hard time not liking the Clark trade. Value wise the trade was absolutely worth it imo. You just need to use those resources wisely. If Collier will never improve, then drafting him was a whiff, not trading Clark.
Addtionally, I believe the perspective on Clark is kinda messed right now. He was really good for us in some games but then was also very quiete in others. He was never that consistent thread that other superstar passrushers are. Now with the KCC he was exactly that again. In the playoffs and the end of the season he turned on the motor and produced but I remember everyone laughing at the Chiefs for that trade early in the season when he was pretty invisible again. So I dare everyone not to think that Frank Clark would have been the answer to all of our passrushing issues.
He’s not a top5 rusher, but give me Reed, Clark, Ford. Remove Collier, Lewis (I like him, but he’s a rookie OG), and some guys who makes decent money (Irvin, Finney, Dunbar, Hollister, Mayowa). You have your passrushers. You can target anyone in both drafts. Like a TE, or WR, RB, or even DT or LB
Nobody said Frank Clark wouldâve been the answer to âallâ the pass rushing problems.
The point is he was the teams only viable pass rush threat. Instead of building around Clark they removed him. You say he wasnât consistent. Well look what happened to the pass rush without him. In hindsight theyâd have been far better off paying him and providing him with capable pass rushing team mates. Now theyâre scrambling to replace Clark, let alone actually adding and improving. The end result is a pass rush that was embarrassingly poor in 2019 and could be even worse this year.
Love this blog! Thank you, Rob. You rock! You have been extremely rough on the hawks this off season, and I’ve wondered if the Hawks were more genius than apathetic. It is obvious they had cap space to spend but they didn’t like any of the options to spend it on. How can you fault them for sticking to their plan and their ability to not lock into huge contracts for sub-premier players? Their genius may lay in the fact that they have signed players that are serviceable now, but not to long term commitments. They seem to be waiting for the right player to come in the future, or the right trade. I would be more upset if they screwed up their cap situation for the years to come for a player that is above average, not great. Have faith, brother!
All of that is fine Joe. But it’s hard to make the case you have there when you see teams like the Ravens trading a bag of footballs for Calais Campbell, or the Cardinals landing DeAndre Hopkins, or the Falcons and Bears making moves to add more to their pass rush with Dante Fowler and Robert Quinn, or the Browns signing Jack Conklin to a reasonable contract. To me it’s a bit of a stretch to think the Seahawks observed all of these plausible moves and decided not a single one was worthy and instead they’re going to invest millions in players like Branden Jackson, Cedric Ogbuehi and Brandon Shell before deciding to try and fix their pass rush with Benson Mayowa and Bruce Irvin. Then they opted to spend their first round pick on a linebacker when they’re already paying $25m to Bobby Wagner and KJ Wright this year, having only traded up for Cody Barton a year ago.
None of that warrants ‘faith’. It warrants serious questioning. Because this looks like a team that is drifting, not competing like they claim.
So many franchise tag deadline deals this year. I canât help but wonder if this signals anything about the cap next year and desire to ink something now rather than roll the dice. I donât think the hawks had an idea about that during free agency, but a lower cap next year could be a silver lining to this awful offseason.
Obviously the off-season has been rather underwhelming to this point, but how would you rate them if they were to sign both brown and Clowney by the time the season starts?
PS been a big fan of the blog for a few years now, but never got around to commenting! Always an interesting and insightful take on the Seahawks!!
With what money?
This bombshell report set to release in the Washington Post about the misconduct allegations in the Redskins franchise sounds devastating. No wonder they’re rushing to change their name and deflect the tidal wave of scorn coming their way.
I’ve seen all these tweets from journalists saying how big this story is going to be. Someone just break the damn thing and let’s hear what it is.
Josina is on the phone as we speak.
She’s discovered that breakfast is a morning meal and that today is in fact Thursday.
Haha, 2 things? That’ll cover at least 4 tweets.
BREAKING NEWS
Lol, when will it end? If she hasn’t been brought on by another media outlet, it definitely shows.
Pretty hard to feel any sympathy for RW wanting âStarâ power considering how many Stars have gotten their walking papers from the Hawks to afford RW. Sherman, Earl Thomas, Frank Clark, Michael Bennett, even the rift it caused with Beast Mode. Iâm not blaming RW, but PC knows how to build championship teams without elite QB play or salary cap infringement. I really donât understand the obsession with adding more offensive weapons, as compared with the need for defensive help. Iâd be all in on grabbing Gordon on the cheap, but a hard no on AB. Iâm a total homer, and Iâm well aware of it but I didnât hate the offseason. Targeting building a strong defense thru the draft, will look better season after next, and nobody saw the Dunbar thing coming but that is a huge loss for the team.
I don’t think RW solely was campaigning for offensive playmakers when he called for more star players. The comment about stars is being connected to him specifically calling for more offensive weapons because he’s the QB. He publicly tweeted to Clowney to come back to the Hawks.
Pretty big sweeping statement there. Affording RW isn’t the overriding reason those guys were let go.
Especially when you consider they had $60m of cap room this offseason.
Who’s obsessed with adding more to the offense here? We’ve been banging the table for more defensive help for 2 years.
The first two picks of the 2020 draft were defensive, so they are attempting to improve the defense. They picked two defensive ends!
The previous years draft picks need to step up their performance. They need to develop some of those picks into stars. I’m still rooting for the forgotten pick, late round Poona Ford.
They picked Brooks a linebacker, then Taylor a defensive end, and the second defensive end was Robinson in the fifth round. They need to develop these players!
Poona was UDFA not a late roundpick. I was pretty surprised he went undrafted and we got him
Hello Rob! Just had a question about something…
I pop over to Field Gulls once in a blue moon and noticed today that they had a written interview up with Cody Barton. How can we get you access to some of these players? I can’t help but think that you would do a much better job (no offense to whoever did the interview for FG). Would provide some great offseason content for us to listen to.
Warm regards.
I suspect you put in a request to the Seahawks media team. It’s something I’ve never really tried to find out about in terms of whether it’d be possible.
But hey if Russell fancies a chat my DMâs are open on Twitter đ
Does this apply to former players?
Are they free to talk to whoever they want after their career is over?
There are some juicy former players that could be fun to interview.
Former players are fair game unless employed by the team.
If anyone has any suggestions or requests, I’m happy to look into it.
“Josina is on the phone as we speak.”
Did you know she heard if you travel East across the international date line you gain an extra day….. and traveling West you lose a day. Some hard hitting journalism right there.
Donât let this distract you from the fact that Hector is going to be running three Honda civics with spoon engines, and on top of that, he just went into Harryâs and bought three t66 turbos with nos, and a motec exhaust system.
Rob, are you planning to do camp battles for roster? I know its unusual off-season, nothing to compare between two players hope to see some practice.
I wonât be doing specific pieces on camp battles, itâs not really something Iâve ever done. And I donât get to watch practise to canât judge for myself when things start. But I will obviously give thoughts on whatever is available and whatever develops.