Give us your take on the 2012 draft.
Live Chat – Post-draft reaction
This should be fun.
Cant make it to the chat but just wanted to throw one thing out there. When you watch PC and JS’s day two summarry video JS clinches his fist and says somthing to the effect of being frustrated about missing out on certain guys…… I belive he directly talking about missing out on Michael Kendricks. My impession is that they targeted Russell willson in round three unless somthing dramatic happened. so that only leaves the second round pick. i think they got cute and lost out on their guy.
I will forever watch the career of micheal kendricks (No. 46) and compare it to Bobby Wagners and the two picks we picked up.
• Second-round pick (No. 47):Bobby Wagner
• Fifth-round pick (No. 154):Koory Toomer
• Seventh-round pick (No. 232):Greg Scruggs
Without doubt Joe, IMO. There was a real ‘pissed off’ vibe from that war room when they made the pick in round two. The fact Schneider even referenced that they’d missed out on a guy confirmed it for me. I suspect Carroll was a huge fan of Kendricks and wanted him badly. Schneider had a deal to move down and probably reassured PC Kendricks would still be on the board. I think John got burned there, trying to be too cute for extra picks. Hope that’s a lesson learned if true.
I’m going to post my draft grades tomorrow. I’ve had 6 hours of sleep since Thursday, or something like that.
I agree that they did seem to react to losing Kendricks.
Last night I was listening to Pete and John;s press conferences in day one and day two. When they talk about Bruce Irvin, they light up with enthusiasm. When they talked about Bobby Wagner, they talked about how Wagner would help their defense and how they thought he was a player that could help the team, but the tone was clearly of a lower level. Then when the topic of Russell Wilson came up, the enthusiasm shot back up to 11. They should try bottling Pete’s excitement when he talks about Russell Wilson and market it as an anti-depressant.
It’s pretty clear that PC/JS had a lot of enthusiasm for Irvin and Wilson, whereas the way that they talked about Wagner had kind of a James Carpenter “plan B” type vibe to it. If they really did rate Kendricks significantly higher, than I don’t understand why they traded back behind the Eagles, a team that everyone and their grandma knew was taking a LB at #46. That makes me think that they probably viewed Kendricks and Wagner as a options 1a and 1b kind of thing.
I graded the Kendricks and Wagner pretty close and in some ways Wagner does have his advantages. Jerry Jones gets a lot of shit, but he’s actually a pretty good talent evaluator and he said he would have taken Wagner (over Kendricks) at #45 if he still had that pick.
I read a report today (grain of salt, of course) that said Dallas had they not traded up for Claiborne would have drafted Wagner at #45 overall. Glad that didn’t happen.
I’m not worried about whether they wanted Kendricks or Wagner more. We got a great player and Wagner generally grades out just as highly, though some sources I’ve read had Kendricks as an ILB and Wagner as an OLB.
Wagner was invited to the combine, though, as an ILB.
I agree that trading down and then missing on Kendricks was a real blunder. But, look at what the Rams did — trading down and then missing on both Blackmon and Floyd. Bradford must be shaking his head …
But they did get Brian Quick!!!
Not a blunder – Wagner is very similar to Kendicks, and both are very similar to Irvin. In fact – you could probably use any of the those three for pass rushing off the edge with similar results.
Phil, Blackmon was off the board when the Rams traded down.
In the chat you shocked many of us with your suggestion that Wilson start for the Seahawks this year.
Reading the entire transcript, I think you said two things (and correct me if I am wrong): one, that there should be (will be) a QB compeition; two, that whoever wins that compeition should/will start at the position. However (I guess three things) you suggest that if it’s even close, Wilson should get the nod so that they can determine without question if he is the QBotF.
Regarding Flynn, your position is that he doesn’t fit the PC prototype and that he was signed for the same reason a dog licks himself (because he can). In other words, they made the most of FA at the position.
This sounds right to me. I would project Flynn’s upside as Hasselbeck (good, not great). I would project Wilson’s upside as a combination of Brees/Vick – the talent and arm of Drew, and the athleticism and mobility of Michael (absent the knucklehead).
If PC sees it the same way, the question would be: how soon does the rookie-Wilson overtake the slightly-more-experienced Flynn? And as headcoach, what do I do to accelerate the process? The answer might be to start Wilson and begin the painful process of development.
[…] hour marathon live-chat session. If you missed it and want to look through what was discussed, click here. Tomorrow we’ll begin to go through the tape as we review Seattle’s draft picks. […]
Hawksince77 – You’ve actually broken down my thoughts on this subject better than I did myself in the live chat. That’s exactly how I feel. I don’t think Wilson or Flynn should have the job handed to them, but I feel the investment in Wilson with the 3rd round pick is greater than the monetary investment placed in Flynn. Therefore, I want to see what Wilson can do to justify that faith if it’s a close run battle in camp. I also want to know whether he’s good enough (or not) so we can plan accordingly for the next draft and whether we’re talking about a realistic QBOTF candidate here.
I think Seattle seized an opportunity with Flynn. His market was ice-cold and when Cleveland showed little interest and Miami were kind of interested but maybe not really… the Seahawks decided to work out a deal. So he’s in Seattle to compete now. He wasn’t handed the starters role. And he isn’t the same kind of physical talent Carroll has added to this roster so far in terms of the position. So I don’t think signing Flynn was a statement of anything more than, “Why not?”
And hey – Pete’s talked about young QB’s starting early. We see it every year these days. They clearly rate the guy, so let’s see what he can do.
Not that i’m optimistic, but i think tjack will be and should be our starter next year. It is incredulous to say that Wilson has a chance to be a starter…even if Carroll loves him enough to reach for him in the 3rd. Flynn will be overwhelmed imo with the lack of speed and skill in his receiving corps and also a inexperienced offensive line(this is not the Packers). Tjack fits this team because 1. he has experience and 2. he is the leader on this team. 3) he knows the system up and down. The Wilson pick is mystifying…but maybe Tjack will teach him that jump pass!
Incredulous? Why? Honestly, Wilson is clearly the ideal PC quarterback in every way but two — his height and his lack of pro experience — and PC obviously doesn’t see the latter as a problem, but rather as a reason to let the kid play. The only real question is whether Wilson’s height disadvantage is too great for him to succeed as a starter. If it is, best find that out soonest; but if he and the coaches can work out ways for him to succeed despite that, then he’s probably as ready to start quickly as any QB in the draft not named Luck.
One thought occurs to me: there are normally two problems for short QBs, but I think Wilson only has one of them. He has the vision problem, certainly, but with those long arms, I’m guessing he doesn’t have a particularly low release.
Wilson has a high, quick release. He had a total of 4 balls batted down his senior year. I don’t know if that is a lot or a little (haven’t seen comparisons) but it doesn’t sound like a lot to me.
TJack will be lucky to make the team, let alone start (his roster spot will depend on how far along Portis has come – if he has progressed well, they won’t want to risk having him on the practice squad).
But you do bring up a good point. While we have seen Flynn succeed in Greenbay’s offense, he has to learn a new one here, with different WRs. Both he and Wilson are starting at ground zero with the Seahawks, and ironically, Wilson has played far more competitive football than Flynn (Wilson a 4-year starter, Flynn a one-year starter in college with 2 pro games).
Hey, love this site. I’m curious, what are your thoughts on the Seahawks letting Hawthorne walk so easily. He had 3 int’s, was a leading tackler (115) etc. It couldn’t have been financial. I think if we retained him, we really could have ‘tackled’ (har) this draft and reasessed our needs for success. Regardless, loved the draft – but also thought Hawthorne is still young, a great LB & worth retaining….
I wanted to give you a shout for tagging Irvin/Wilson so early. Nice Job, those two guys were probably my two top favorite players in the draft.
I believe that Wilson, should start ASAP, if he’s the player I believe he is, it won’t be a problem, if I’m totally wrong about him, then Barkeley, Tyler Wilson here we go….for some reason I don’t think it’s going to shake out that way.
The question I have to anyone is what does Wilson have to do to keep and retain his job? THe last few years of Hass and Tjax, have been fair to middling, so if Wilson, does what, say have even one fourth quarter comeback, and becomes the first QB in three years to throw say, and this is nothing, 18 td’s to even let’s call it 10 ints, is that a success? That would be better then either of those two guys for the last two years. How long do we wait? I mean Alex Smith was roundly hailed as a success last year after 7 seasons for finally throwing a mere 17 td’s to 5 ints……
I don’t care who it is, but one of our QBs has got to be the QBOTNF (the Quarterback of the NEAR future). I think the Seahawks odds of winning the Matt Barkley sweepstakes next year are next to zero, so I’m looking forward to what I hope will be an intense competition for the QB job, and I expect the winner to be the QB for the next 4 or 5 years at least. While it would be great to find a “franchise” QB among TJack, Portis, Flynn, or Wilson, I think it’s much more realistic to hope — in the short run — that we can find one who will not run out of bounds on a key third down, one who will throw the ball away instead of taking a sack, and one who may not always win the game for us, but seldom or never will lose the game for us. PC and the front office have built a team that relies on defense and the running game. Next year, with big improvements in our pass rushing and with modest improvements in our QB play, we can compete with SF and maybe take back the division. So, let’s root for all of them even though one “isn’t a prototypical PC QB” who was signed just because we could, one is too short, one played at a small college, and one has questionable judgment. It’s way too soon to be playing favorites.
This Wilson discussion sounds like a debate over Madden GM decision-making. In a vacuum, starting Wilson is a nice idea but in the real NFL, 3rd-round picks don’t start in their rookie year over a free agent QB signed for 3 yrs/$26m. He hasn’t been “handed” the starting job, but it is certainly Flynn’s to lose regardless of Carroll’s competition platitudes. What else would he say? He wants his players to push each other and take nothing for granted. Is Flynn starting the *right* decisions? Maybe, maybe not, but that is the clear and obvious path for this coaching staff. Keep in mind that Flynn wasn’t just a random free agent QB. He was the hallowed Green Bay Packers backup to the vaunted Aaron Rodgers. Carroll would look ridiculous signing him to that deal and then not giving him the opportunity to prove himself in favor of a 3rd-round rookie.
But the QB controversy will rage on, because no fanbase loves to root for the backup like the 12th Man. I’ve been hearing it since Sam Adkins wore #12. Amusing but annoying.
Well that’s a pretty patronising way of putting it, lemonverbena. I’ve never seen a Madden reference to the suggestion of starting a third round pick before, that’s usually saved for the rosterbation desire of accumulating picks and drafting every great player on the board.
First of all, let’s understand the Flynn situation. You say it’s a $26m contract, but in actual fact the bulk of the deal is weighted into this year. Seattle could very, very easily cut Flynn next off-season. When free agency opened, nobody wanted to sign him. Cleveland said, “No thanks.” Miami were lukewarm. The rest of the league showed no interest. Eventually he arranged a flight to Seattle and left without a deal. Miami clearly weren’t overwhelmingly interested. So he signs in Seattle on a deal that rewards him if he succeeds and makes him expendable if he doesn’t. The Seahawks are taking zero risk here. They’re seeing if there’s an opportunity to be had with this guy. But he’s here to compete. Simple as that. Jackson will get the initial first team snaps according to Pete Carroll. This is not anyone’s to lose, it’s open. It’s only the high profile nature of the Flynn addition which makes people think otherwise. They made a big trade and paid Charlie Whitehurst and he never started. Let’s not forget that.
Nobody would look ridiculous if Flynn doesn’t start, in the same way nobody is saying Seattle looked ridiculous for taking a chance on Whitehurst. They’re trying to find ‘the guy’ and if Flynn doesn’t start, he’ll just be the latest guy they tried. In my opinion, the investment in Wilson is greater than the investment in Flynn. They’ve given some money to Flynn to secure his signature. He will actually receive a very similar amount to Whitehurst and Jackson. Wilson on the other hand, has cost a valuable third round pick. It is clear that this organisation loves Russell Wilson. They have done nothing to dampen down enthusiasm for this guy. Carroll has admitted that younger QB’s can start these days – which is true – and Schneider has said he was one of the top players in the draft. Seattle took this guy in round three because his height dictated he would last that long. Had he been a round one pick, and it sounds like Seattle almost see him as such, he’d be competing to start.
So it’s not Madden-esque to suggest it could happen, because it could. This is a three-way competition now and if it’s tight between Flynn and Wilson, I think Wilson will get the nod. It’s got nothing to do with rooting for the backup because nobody has declared Wilson the backup. This team LOVES Russell Wilson. They’ve taken a low-risk chancer on Flynn with a get out in 12 months. And when has this team ever thought conventionally?
No offense intended and I apologize if my comment came off as patronizing. But to see the QB competition as an actual three-way race is to ignore the other factors. Coach-speak can rarely be taken at face value. Tarvaris has ~zero chance of winning the job barring catastrophic circumstances. His ceiling has been reached, and the team would not want to be put in the position of needing to re-sign Jackson next offseason with both Flynn and Wilson on the roster and a big QB draft upcoming (though this is a franchise on the upswing and they would have to pull off an RGIII trade to get Barkley–not likely). And between Wilson and Flynn, I’ve pointed out why I believe Wilson has little chance of winning the job out of camp. I would be pleasantly surprised if he did, honestly; but the chance appears so slim to me as to not be worth serious contemplation.
Thance may be slim for Wilson, but if it works, this gambles pays huge….meaning you don’t need to do RGIII stule trade next year, and can keep getting better everywhere else on the team. That’s a gamble I’m willin gto take….if it fails and Wilson’s floor and ceiling are somehow a backup QB forever then we have a bakc-up QB. As you said regardless of drafting Wilson, Tjax is basically maxed out potential. Few QB’s ever get to spend thsi much time in one system without significant growth and keep their jobs
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