New podcast & analysis of PFF’s Seahawks grades

September 16th, 2020 | Written by Rob Staton

Before getting into today’s article, please check out our latest podcast finishing off the Atlanta game talk and moving on to a preview of the Patriots game.

The Seattle Seahawks are very reliant on three players.

Everyone knows how important Russell Wilson is.

Jamal Adams and Bobby Wagner are essentially the defensive version.

It’s not even worth considering what Seattle’s defense would look like without their elite pair.

There’s room for improvement with certain players. It’d be unfair to judge Quinton Dunbar after one game, especially after a challenging pre-season.

Yet the week one PFF grades below speak for themselves. The sheer brilliance of Adams masked a lot of warts on Sunday. And regardless of the degree in which Russell Wilson is donning a chef’s hat and apron — they are going to need much more from their defense to make a serious run.

PFF grades on defense

Bobby Wagner — 87.3
Jamal Adams — 85.8
K.J. Wright — 71.2
Damontre Moore — 70.1 (on 20 or so snaps)
Jordyn Brooks — 69.5 (again barely any snaps)
Lano Hill — 65.8
Bruce Irvin — 63.4
Rasheem Green — 62.3
Jarran Reed – 60.6
Poona Ford— 58.7
Benson Mayowa — 56.3
L.J. Collier — 55.7
Quandre Diggs — 53.8
Shaquill Griffin — 52.1
Marquise Blair — 44.9
Quinton Dunbar — 40.6

Here’s how PFF explain their grading scale:

100-90 – Elite
89-85 – Pro Bowler
84-70 – Starter
69-60 – Backup
59-0 – Replaceable

You might say it’s only one game. Yet it confirms all previous fears about this defense. A couple of stars (Wagner, Adams) but serious issues elsewhere.

Look at how the starting D-line graded:

Jarran Reed – 60.6
Poona Ford— 58.7
Benson Mayowa — 56.3
L.J. Collier — 55.7

All but Reed graded above the lowest ‘replacement level’ grade — and he only just avoided it.

This isn’t just a ‘could be better’ situation. It’s a serious problem.

Take Benson Mayowa for example. Many will be surprised at his 56.3 grade. What you’ve got to remember though is he’s being asked to do a role he’s never done before (and possibly isn’t suited to). He’s always been a rotational defensive end. Some might say, that’s what he’s best at. Yet in Seattle he played 71 snaps — the fifth most on defense.

As a rotational piece, Mayowa is a solid option. As a premier rusher? The results are somewhat represented in the grade. He will flash from time-to-time but is he able to hold up the end of a line for +70 snaps week-in and week-out and deliver a consistent performance? Arguably not.

It didn’t cost the Seahawks against Atlanta because of the brilliance of Wilson and the up-tempo, pro-active, aggressive offensive game plan. If they can do that most weeks, they might be able to cover up the problem like an unwanted pimple. That pimple, that blemish, will still be there though.

The concern will be that come the serious games that decide division titles and playoff progress, this level of performance simply won’t be good enough.

It’s a real shame too. We saw a glimpse of Seattle’s potential on Sunday. Elite level players displaying their talents. Complementary players on offense to support the QB.

There shouldn’t be a single unit on this team threatening to ruin anything. Not after the veritable splurge Seattle had this year.

You can’t be great everywhere. It’s unrealistic.

You also can’t be terrible somewhere and hope to be serious contenders.

Look at the Chiefs in 2018. Patrick Mahomes was unbelievable. The offense was dynamic and at times unstoppable. They won 12 games. Yet they came unstuck in the playoffs because the defense was a problem. Thus — they traded for Frank Clark and made a big splash to land Tyrann Mathieu.

It’s surprising they haven’t acted this week. D’Andre Walker, as much as I liked him at Georgia, hasn’t played football in nearly two years. The chances of him having an impact this year are remote at best. If Alton Robinson can’t get activated, what chance has Walker got?

Seahawks fans are generally not big supporters of Clay Matthews. It shouldn’t have ever come to needing him as an emergency signing in mid-September. I won’t go over old ground but they should’ve signed other players long before now.

Yet surely it’s better to have him on the roster, providing something, rather than D’Andre Walker?

The fact that he isn’t here can only be down to money. Seattle has cap space to play with but that doesn’t mean they’re going to automatically match Everson Griffen’s salary in Dallas for example. Presumably Matthews wants a certain amount and interested parties such as Seattle and Denver have so far not matched it.

They also need a defensive tackle. Someone to absorb space on early downs and provide interior stoutness versus the run. Those players are available but again, what are they asking for?

With contracts no longer guaranteed now that the season has begun, there’s nothing to lose in adding a player or two and seeing how it goes. In a few weeks time you can make a call — especially if the trade market offers better options as teams fall out of contention. Last year the trade for Quandre Diggs was inspired. They need to find a D-line version somewhere in 2020.

They brought in Breeland Speaks for a tryout this week. Speaks was the #46 overall pick in 2018 but struggled for form and health in Kansas City.

The Chiefs draft for physical ideals in the first two rounds. Look at their early picks over the last few years. Clyde Edwards-Helaire, Willie Gay Jr, Mecole Hardman, Juan Thornhill, Breeland Speaks, Patrick Mahomes, Tanoh Kpassagnon. They seek out high upside in terms of explosive traits and speed. You can also include Frank Clark in this list. He possessed the best combination of explosive athleticism and agility to enter the league in the last 10 years.

Speaks ran an impressive 4.87 forty at 283lbs, a 1.64 10-yard split and he has good length (34 inch arms). His highlights tape was strong but his overall play at Ole Miss was inconsistent.

There’s nothing wrong with taking a look at Speaks. However, there’s not a great history of second round picks being dumped after two years then emerging as key role players elsewhere, after sitting on the open market for a couple of weeks.

Neither is he really what the Seahawks need. He’s more of an inside/out type or a nickel interior rusher. Seattle badly needs a proper EDGE threat and a good interior run defender.

Even so — he’s probably willing to accept a job for a modest price.

In terms of the PFF grades on offense, unsurprisingly Wilson led the way:

Russell Wilson — 91.2
Duane Brown — 75.9
Tyler Lockett — 74.6
Greg Olsen — 71.4
Jacob Hollister — 70.1
D.K. Metcalf — 68.8
Damien Lewis — 67.9
Chris Carson — 65.2
Brandon Shell — 64.4
Freddie Swain — 63.9
David Moore — 60.5
Nick Bellore — 60.0
Luke Willson — 60.0
Penny Hart — 60.0
Jordan Simmons — 58.5
Travis Homer — 58.5
Carlos Hyde — 57.2
Ethan Pocic — 55.2
Will Dissly — 52.9
Mike Iupati — 37.9

The big concern here is the performance of Iupati and Pocic. It’s perhaps not surprising that the Seahawks gave Jordan Simmons some snaps at left guard. If this grade becomes a trend for Pocic, it’ll increase the chances of Justin Britt returning.

The positives are Brandon Shell must’ve recovered to get a 64.4 given the way he started the game. Damien Lewis had a good debut and Duane Brown was superb. Seattle’s key playmakers all graded well too.

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368 Responses to “New podcast & analysis of PFF’s Seahawks grades”

  1. cha says:

    Jarran Reed – 60.6

    That’s 2019 Jarran Reed. We need the 2018 Jarran Reed to show up.

    Damien Lewis — 67.9

    Excellent grade IMO considering the penalties and he was facing Grady Jarrett in his first NFL start.

    Damontre Moore — 70.1

    If they’re not getting anyone else this week, he’s earned some more snaps vs NE

    Russell Wilson — 91.2

    Does this take into account his being sacked? That’s the only blemish on his performance Sunday.

    • Rob Staton says:

      Todays’ PC conference:

      — Happy birthday Pete x2
      — How do you stay so young and fresh Pete?
      — Social justice questions x4
      — Crowd noise questions x2

      • cha says:

        Yikes. I checked this morning and no press conf link was showing.

        Again, doesn’t seem like I missed much.

      • JUJUS says:

        God I miss Shiel Kapadia.

        Journalism is dying.

        Rob I wish you were asking the questions.

      • Matt says:

        Seattle sports media is so embarrassing. Their top 2 priorities have become 1) try to be buddy-buddy with Seahawk coaches and players and 2) make sure their political preferences get the publicity they desire.

        Asking actual football questions is apparently down the list.

      • Noah Parker says:

        This is spot on. Seriously, what feedback mechanisms are there for the reporters covering these press conferences? It’s truly awful. How can we write to Art Thiel?

  2. Andy J says:

    Dear Rob:

    I am curious how you evaluate PFF metrics. Aren’t they quite controversial?? For example, I read elsewhere that Ethan Pocic was the player who improved the most based upon last week’s play. I would similarly be concerned with the high rating for Damien Lewis when he was at fault for several false starts. And why did Will Dissly earn a 52.9? I guess, I would be interested in a critical account of these grades and some film evaluation to match the grade with what’s on tape. Curious what your thoughts are.

    The only other comment I have is that to properly evaluate these PFF grades, wouldn’t we need a league-wise comparison? Without preseason, I imagine that grades would be substantially lower across the league this year, especially this first week. Is the large number of replacement-level grades a league-wide problem??

    All my best and keep up the great, and constant, analysis!
    -Andy

    • Danny P says:

      Jamal Adams having a borderline historic day, yet only making the cut for ‘pro bowl’ by 0.8 points should tell you plenty. He was apparently a ways off from elite play on Sunday…hopefully he will come around.

      PFF is pretty awesome. But ya

    • Rob Staton says:

      “I am curious how you evaluate PFF metrics. Aren’t they quite controversial??”

      They certainly can be, yes. There have been some nonsense ones in the past. However, I think as they’ve gained more national recognition things have become more polished. I can’t remember, unlike the 2012/2013 period, any absolutely honking grades.

      “I read elsewhere that Ethan Pocic was the player who improved the most based upon last week’s play.”

      I re-watched the game and did not think Pocic played particularly well. I didn’t study his game to the extent PFF did but I would say he needs to grow into the starting job. Maybe he can do that.

      “I would similarly be concerned with the high rating for Damien Lewis when he was at fault for several false starts.”

      He also did a lot of things right though. He’s very talented.

      “And why did Will Dissly earn a 52.9?”

      I don’t know but let’s be right, he didn’t really do much in the game.

      • pdway says:

        anyone stand out to you in the re-watch, that maybe didn’t pop in the original viewing?

      • landon says:

        keep in mind that as of week #1 the median defensive tackle graded a 59.6 out of 112 players graded and the median edge defender graded a 63.4 (which was Irvins grade) out of 103 graded players. It was noteworthy that Frank Clark, Ngakoue, and Everson Griffen came away with a pitiful 45.6 42.5, and 33.7

        • Rob Staton says:

          It is noteworthy, for sure.

          But I suspect the Watt’s, Clark’s and Ngakoue’s likely won’t grade this way all year.

          • landon says:

            I don’t disagree. I have followed PFF for a while now and their grading explanations of:
            100-90 – Elite
            89-85 – Pro Bowler
            84-70 – Starter
            69-60 – Backup
            59-0 – Replaceable

            are more theoretical and not representative of the reality of actual grades given out over a season. At the completion of any full season and basically regardless of the position being graded, the median (50th percentile) player grade will be in the 60’s and there are very few players in the 90’s. If I was to rename each level I would say:

            90’s = you are in the top 3 at your position
            80’s = pro bowl level of play
            70’s = above average level of play
            60’s = average level of play
            50’s = below average level of play
            40’s and below = backup/replaceable/ bad

  3. CaptainJack says:

    I think there’s a lot of undeserved optimism about this team after a win against a poorly coached Atlanta squad that’s coming off a fairly dismal season.

    I see the talent and potential of Bobby and Jamal. Wilson will be brilliant as always. But the weaknesses on the oline and dline probably render this team good for only 9 or 10 wins and an early post season exit, especially considering how brutal the nfc west looks this year.
    I think we’ll see the first taste of that this Sunday. The patriots will never be easy to beat with Belichick at the helm. If the dline can’t stop the run and the pats pass defense shows up, we could be in store for a major reality check.

    And they have truly limited options to improve either unit at this point. Britt might be the best option out there in terms of net value he’d bring to the team but we already tried to bring him in once and couldn’t figure it out.

    • pdway says:

      Atlanta did finish 6-2 over the back half of the ’19 season, including wins over the Saints and Niners.

    • Rob Staton says:

      “I think there’s a lot of undeserved optimism about this team after a win against a poorly coached Atlanta squad that’s coming off a fairly dismal season.”

      A lot of fans won’t want to hear it but I agree. It was a good win but the reaction has been OTT in some instances. There will be big changes in Atlanta by next year I think.

      “I see the talent and potential of Bobby and Jamal. Wilson will be brilliant as always. But the weaknesses on the oline and dline probably render this team good for only 9 or 10 wins and an early post season exit, especially considering how brutal the nfc west looks this year.”

      I think Wilson is good enough to get to 11, as he did last year. But I agree the two lines, especially the D-line, will likely prevent them from reaching their full potential.

      “I think we’ll see the first taste of that this Sunday. The patriots will never be easy to beat with Belichick at the helm. If the dline can’t stop the run and the pats pass defense shows up, we could be in store for a major reality check.”

      Maybe — but let’s also not forget the Pats have lost so many players to the opt-out and are breaking in a new QB. I would expect a Seahawks win in this game, one way or another. Perhaps comfortably. We’ll see.

      “And they have truly limited options to improve either unit at this point. Britt might be the best option out there in terms of net value he’d bring to the team but we already tried to bring him in once and couldn’t figure it out.”

      Britt is the only realistic option to improve the O-line. The defensive line is going to be tremendously hard to fix and shouldn’t have been left to this point to act. More should’ve been done months ago. They better hope the trade market has a solution or two in a few weeks.

  4. pdway says:

    But do we trust the reliability of PFF grades? And if we do – – then based on the bigger sample size of the full 2019 season: Dunbar was the #2 CB in the NFL, ahead of Stephon Gilmore, and Shaq Griffen was #13 in the league, ahead of guys like Tre’davious White and Denzel Ward.

    Do we believe that Shaq Griffen (who was taken some blows on this site of late) is better than those guys? If not, then we need to question the reliability.

    • Rob Staton says:

      “But do we trust the reliability of PFF grades?”

      I’m not going to die on a hill for PFF grades but they are also interesting and personally they kind of matched my own eye test.

      “Dunbar was the #2 CB in the NFL, ahead of Stephon Gilmore, and Shaq Griffen was #13 in the league, ahead of guys like Tre’davious White and Denzel Ward.”

      I didn’t watch Dunbar or Gilmore in 2019 so I couldn’t pass comment. But maybe he played really well? It’s possible.

      “Do we believe that Shaq Griffen (who was taken some blows on this site of late) is better than those guys? If not, then we need to question the reliability.”

      I don’t think he’s better than Gilmore or White. But he might’ve been overall last year. I didn’t watch them every week.

  5. Gohawks5151 says:

    I’m not super familiar with the scoring system. I’m guessing DK’s score is reflective of the drops? Carson too. Is it because of attempts and yards per carry?

    I would like a guy like Speaks. I bet that 1.64 split at that size is hard to ignore for a PC reclamation project. But you are right they need a legit run stopping DT. I’m surprised the Anthony Rush kid hasn’t been called up yet. He has real size and got some good experience at the end of the year in Philly.

  6. HoBro says:

    I don’t have the skills to rate most players’ performances so I can’t argue with the bulk of the PFF rankings, but their overall assessment of Sunday’s performance by the Seahawks is just odd. According to their rating scale, only nine of the Seahawks turned in a performance worthy of an NFL starter. By many metrics, the Falcons are close to average and I don’t understand how a team fielding only nine players worthy of being starters could beat an average team as convincingly as the Seahawks beat the Falcons. They rated DK Metcalf’s performance as being at backup level, and while it wasn’t perfect I think a majority of teams would be happy to have him start for them. And if Jamal Adams’ performance wasn’t elite then the word ceases to be meaningful.

    More positively, Footballoutsiders ranked the Seahawks’ special teams performance, another dismal part of the game last year, at #3.

    • Rob Staton says:

      “Their overall assessment of Sunday’s performance by the Seahawks is just odd”

      Really? I thought it compared very well to the eye test.

      “According to their rating scale, only nine of the Seahawks turned in a performance worthy of an NFL starter.”

      Well… yeah. We know the Seahawks rely a lot on three elite players and a handful of really good secondary ones (eg Duane Brown).

      “They rated DK Metcalf’s performance as being at backup level”

      Well in fairness to D.K. he had a horrendous drop and I’ve not studied every route he ran. That can impact your grade.

      “If Jamal Adams’ performance wasn’t elite then the word ceases to be meaningful.”

      Let’s be clear — Adams was superb. But he literally ran into his own player to give up an easy touchdown. That has to come at a cost to overall grade.

  7. Submanjoe says:

    When Seahawks got up 31 to 12, I am watching to see… can the defense stop Atlanta. Almost all the 4th quarter left. I am thinking now a top notch defense will slam the door shut. I know Atlanta will be passing. Seahawks will have their chance for sacks and sack fumbles and interceptions etc. Disappointingly, none of that happened. Alas, I know the defense is not yet elite.

    Now, this was one game. Maybe they are elite and have not yet shown it. Maybe Matty Ice just was able to freeze them in their tracks with his cold killer comeback demeanor.

    Maybe the defense is not yet elite.

    Until the defense is able to slam the door shut on a team once the offense has opened up a nice 3 score lead (or whatever score lead), I will know it is not an elite defense.

    Unfortunately, while Clay Mathews could surely help, I don’t think he puts them over the top.

    I don’t know about Pff grades. I do know what I saw.

    • Rob Staton says:

      Two players are elite — Wagner and Adams. The rest is not.

      • Submanjoe says:

        Exactly.

        What I want is the defense to be elite. It needs more than just Wagner and Adams. I am resigned to hoping the defense will be ‘coached up’, able to outperform the sum of its parts. But I just cannot get away from them knowing Atlanta would come out throwing down 31-12 and yet still none of the d line could get through and sack Ryan. Griffin still cannot jump a route that he reads.

      • Elmer says:

        KJ is OK. Need to worry about the rest of the D except maybe Diggs, Dunbar,Blair.

    • pdway says:

      we’re nowhere near elite . . . an elite defense, and a hall-of-fame QB in his prime, that would be something to have. hasn’t happened all that many times that I can think of over the last 20 years in the NFL.

      we just need to be good enough. And you’re premise is not wrong to me, you have to be able to rush the passer, esp in the 4th quarter. I’m left w hoping that Mayowa is going to exceed expectations, and we’ll get something from Collier/Irvin, and even Adams in that area.

      Are we giving up on Taylor for the season?

    • A prevent defence that neither prevents scoring nor keeps the clock running has been a problem for two seasons or more. Maybe it is the instincts of the back seven not being a good fit to that approach, but it gives me the jitters every time.

  8. The Hawk's nest says:

    Wow, Shell’s grade surprised me. Didn’t look good out there at all, but as you said Rob, he must recovered after the poor start. On the flipside, when i was watching Pocic, especially in pass pro, he looked pretty solid, but they are watching every play and every player, so I’ll trust their numbers.

  9. cha says:

    Joe Fann
    @Joe_Fann
    Falcons DC Raheem Morris reportedly shared that he didn’t take the #Seahawks
    passing attack “as seriously as he should have” going into Week 1.

    https://twitter.com/Joe_Fann/status/1306317010930786304

    Every once in a while I need to pull back and stop criticizing the Hawks coaching so much. This is one of those times.

    This is an insane level of stupidity. Compounded by the fact that your HC is Dan Quinn, who had a front row seat to RW’s performances in Seattle. And who they’ve played 4x in the last 5 years!

    • charlietheunicorn says:

      Was he the CB that got burnt like toast on the 4th and 5 for the TD?

      DK talked about the play, how he felt disrespected by the CB playing him 1 v 1……
      the funny part was listening to Hugh Millen talk about the play, how NFL WRs are not supposed to be able to do what DK did to a NFL quality CB. He stacked him and blew right by him….. making the catch with 3-4 yards of separation on an inside release then headed on an out/up route, with safety help to the inside.

      One of the highlight plays of the 2020 season.

    • Big Mike says:

      Guessing there’s zero chance Hoodie doesn’t take RE and the passing game seriously.

    • SeahawkeyezSubj80 says:

      Goes to show they knew Pete has always been a run, run, pass if you have to (to a fault). Caught Atlanta by surprise, lends a lot of credibility to Robs earlier article about Russ putting the influence on. Interesting to keep watching how this plays out.

  10. charlietheunicorn says:

    “Damien Lewis — 67.9

    Excellent grade IMO considering the penalties and he was facing Grady Jarrett in his first NFL start.”
    ~cha

    I thought Lewis played respectably. He has to develop chemistry with the C and RT still, so his raw natural instincts, held up his own against Jarrett who was playing straight up on him most of the game… and is probably the #2 DT in the NFL, behind your and my Rams favorite Donald.

    I think his penalties were all holding penalties, and some of them were on inside twists involving Grady using a 2 man game inside/out with the LDE/OLB. After the 1st quarter, he definitely looked like he calmed down and looked much more comfortable out there playing.

  11. Hoggs41 says:

    Is all I know is we are 1-0. The only stat that matters.

    • BobbyK says:

      The only stat that matters is winning the Super Bowl. This current DL will never be part of a team that wins the Super Bowl. They must do something or Taylor needs to eventually play like Lawrence Taylor when he first takes the field for the Seahawks. Something significant needs to happen on the DL or it will be a wasted season all because of that particular unit.

  12. RWIII says:

    Hey Rob I get it. The defensive line is the worst in the NFL. Why do you have to keep beating us over the head about the defensive line?

    • BobbyK says:

      Perhaps because he likes the Seahawks the way we do and doesn’t want another wasted season because of that singular unit. And because it’s true. And it’s his blog.

      • Danny P says:

        Only one game, but the d line hasn’t been a problem yet.

        See how they do against the Tebow Playbook next week. Might be a super fascinating game. Very familiar, elite coaches with holes and weapons in interesting areas throughout their rosters. My money is on RW being the difference.

        If the o line can perform, I believe the story of the season will be their whole offense, not the d line 🙂

        Here’s hopin

        • Rob Staton says:

          The D-line is inadequate.

          We don’t need to wait for any amount of games to assert that.

          It might not cost the Seahawks until the playoffs or a key NFC West game. But the moment will come.

          You simply cannot have Benson Mayowa as your primary rusher, with L.J. Collier at five technique and only three defensive tackles on the entire roster.

          And Carroll knows it.

    • Rob Staton says:

      It’s the defining topic of the season. If you don’t want to talk about it you don’t want a serious discussion about the Seahawks.

  13. DougK says:

    Good article and I agree that our D-line is our weak link.

    But I quibble over the small sample size for the PFF grades, some may be accurate, others not. So I am not going to put too much weight on PFF after only 1 game.

    For example, in the same one game sample size here’s some other PFF grades of highly touted players who nobody would judge as that weak:

    JJ Watt – 58.9
    Dante Fowler Jr – 52.7
    Frank Clark – 45.6
    Yannick Ngakoue – 42.5
    Everson Griffen – 33.7

    • SeahawkeyezSubj80 says:

      Exactly, 1 game of data does not paint a good picture.This truly was a preseason game. Im not getting to high or low. Im encouraged that this offense does have the ability to put up points and make the other team 1 dimensional. Time will tell how good Atlanta is and can we do this game in game out. Especially with good to elite defensive lines which all 3 of our division rivals possess. Go Hawks!

    • BobbyK says:

      You are correct. Very relevant. But we know that when Frank Clark puts up a 45.6 that his age and history dictate this isn’t something to be overly worried about through one singular game.

      Our guys we’re concerned with on the DL (Mayowa, Ford, etc.) do not have any history of being good so when they aren’t good – even if it’s only one week – it’s more of a concern. No? I would say the odds of Watt, Fowler, Clark, Ngakoue, or Griffen posting a higher ranking than some of our clown show DL is much higher going into week two. If we had to bet money in Vegas on rankings if they all had the same odds going into next week – who would we put our money on? I guarantee that someone who values making money wouldn’t put it on our best guy in Mayowa.

    • RWIII says:

      Doug. Excellent point. You the man.

      When Seattle acquired Jamar Adams the first thing I said was that opposing offensive coordinators are going to have to account for Adams on every single play. Then remarks were made that he is only a strong safety. That ain’t gonna happen. Well today Marcus Spears was asked how do you attack a dominate Seattle defense? The first thing Spears said was that you are going to have to account for Adams on every play. BTW: 5 of Adam’s 12 tackles was behind the line of scrimmage. Tackling runners behind the line of scrimmage is HUGE when trying to stopping the opposing offense.

      • charlietheunicorn says:

        Now if they had Clowney in the front 7 (beating a dead horse) who is also very good at TFLs….. man I can taste how sweet it would have been. If they can get at least 1 more DL to replicate the TFLs that Clowney did during 2019, they will be very tough to beat.

    • Elmer says:

      The purpose isn’t to have a statistically significant sample size. The purpose, rather, is to be informative in an objective manner. That means including the good and the not so good.

    • cha says:

      Just curious DougK, how did the entire DL do in those low PFF grades for those star players?

      Because Rob’s article was talking about the entire DL having poor grades, not single players.

    • Rob Staton says:

      I guess it’s just possible they all played badly.

      The difference is we’ve seen all those players play very well.

  14. charlietheunicorn says:

    Mike Iupati — 37.9

    Ok, this is dreadful. Perhaps the LG play influenced (negatively) the play of Pocic at center??
    I have been thinking LG is a very high priority spot to fill in 2021…. this more than proves it to me. They do have some other options and perhaps Finney might land in that spot, which wouldn’t be any worse than this DREADFUL performance.

    On the other hand, he is more known for his run blocking than pass blocking, so maybe that had something to do with it.. since Russ was cooking so much early.

  15. JW says:

    I would have liked to see in 2012 and ’13 pff grades on our defense. i think PFF didnt get a foothold until later if im not mistaken?

    its like the tom cable lines of the past, your going to downright suck for at min 8 games a year but can you do just enough in the other 8 to get a win.

    its not going to be pretty, but then again its 2020 🙂

  16. JW says:

    They need to address both tackle spots IMO. but sadly not having a first rounder for the next few years and this organizations unwillingness to spend in FA on solid O-line talent makes the next several years quite dicey.

  17. God of Thunder says:

    PFF ? Pffft.

    What wasn’t captured by some of these grades was how utterly confident the team looked. Except for the second quarter when Atlanta rallied and the Seahawks had already put two scores on the board.

    There were hardly any shambolic fire drill moments. At all. The offence looked like it could move upfield at will. So many options for the OC and Wilson. The defence was similarly confident. We looked like we do after 4-5 games.

    • pdway says:

      that’s a good point. RW’s efficiency and effectiveness really did set a tone.

    • SeahawkeyezSubj80 says:

      I would be curious if PFF has a point system for clutch play especially when it result in change of possession. Making key stops. Benson Mayowa knocked ball away on 4th down and the flying man sack on 4th down. The hit by Blair on the fake punt to cause a fumble on a play where Atlanta got the first down. All impact-full plays that had a direct effect on the game.

      What about when corners are told to play off the ball 5 to 10 yards and allow free release keep everything in front of you, which is what pretty much what happened from the end of the third quarter on.

      PFF serves a purpose especially as you get more and more data which does hone in on a “general idea” of a players play. But IMO does not take into account the “human heart factor” the “want to factor” when it comes to needing a play that impacts a game.

      • TomLPDX says:

        PFF grades try to capture all of the nuances. Are they perfect? No. But I think they are trying to be as neutral as possible to judge a particular player’s skills. They will continue to hone it but for the most part are pretty close to what is happening. Just my opinion…just like PFF’s opinion is their own opinion. Take it for what it is worth or throw it away. I personally give it credence.

  18. Cortez Kennedy says:

    Kind of crazy seeing the Hawks ranked #4 (usually one spot ahead of Santa Clara) in almost every majors publication’s power ranking.

  19. charlietheunicorn says:

    First-Year Eligibles (Pro Football Hall of Fame)
    Quarterback – Peyton Manning
    Wide Receivers – Calvin Johnson, Wes Welker, Roddy White
    Tight End –Heath Miller
    Running Back – Steven Jackson
    Offensive Linemen – D’Brickashaw Ferguson (T), Logan Mankins (G)
    Defensive Backs – Charles Tillman (CB), Charles Woodson (CB/S)
    Defensive Linemen – Jared Allen (DE), Justin Tuck (DE), Kevin Williams (DT)
    Linebacker – Jerod Mayo

    There are some very fine players here. I feel a bit old checking out his list.

    • Big Mike says:

      Pssssh, old is when guys you watched as a kid are dying e.g. Bart Starr, Johnny Unitus, etc.

      In all seriousness, after Peyton and Megatron it’ll be interesting to see who else gets in. Woodson seems like a great bet as well.

      • charlietheunicorn says:

        I don’t think Megatron will make it in 1st ballot.

        Woodson and Peyton are locks…. perhaps Mankins, but I would have to look at the guys on the list still eligible to be voted in…. there are some excellent players lurking.

        • God of Thunder says:

          Agreed on Megatron. Poor guy tho’, all those years with a pretty bad team.

          It’s not an overwhelming class, to my eye.

          I hope Wes Welker gets in. May not happen immediately. There ought to be a degree of difficulty algorithm 😂 What he achieved with his size and talent foundation is impressive. Led the league in receptions 3x. Not only went I drafted but wasn’t invited to the combine.

  20. BobbyK says:

    Rob, Will you please explain to some that Mayowa is better than Bruce Smith in his prime, Poona Ford is the second coming of Cortez Kennedy, and LJ Collier is 10x better than Red Bryant. Also, please not that Griffin is 5x better than Sherman ever was. Once you do this – you will make many people happy. It doesn’t matter if it’s true – many only care about what they want to read, not what’s actually real. It’s kind of like the real world and people who complain about politics. No liberal will ever give Fox News a chance and no conservative will ever give CNBC a chance. Nobody cares about anything unless it fits the narrative they want to believe. Critical thinking isn’t a priority. You’re getting sleepy… sleepy… sleepy… sleepy…

    • SeahawkeyezSubj80 says:

      I totally agree. The age of if you dont speak my belief system, there is something wrong with you. Its really sad. Its most prevalent in politics, music,religion,racial, sexual preference. It like its not okay to disagree anymore. You must be eradicated/punished if you disagree on a topic. Instead of hey I understand what your saying, but here is my viewpoint. A dish served nicely even if its liver and onions is better received than a pizza and beer slapped down and thrown at you.

    • Rob Staton says:

      👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

    • AlaskaHawk says:

      You know what makes me happy? A Seahawks win! Yeah!

      You may now return to the team analysis.

  21. SeahawkeyezSubj80 says:

    BTW, Rob happy birthday to whoever is celebrating in your house. Noticed the birthday banner in the background

  22. cha says:

    Ken Norton’s press conf today he pretty much said what we’re all thinking.

    Asked about Irvin & Mayowa’s snaps, he said they’re playing way, way more snaps than they’re used to. Even referenced their prior years’ snap percentages. And the team has to find ways to keep them fresh.

    Brady Henderson asked about the front 4 pressure on Sunday and clarified he was not talking about blitzes, just the front 4. Norton talked about how crazy people are about sack stats and talked about getting the QB to move his feet and his completion % goes way down. Ended with “it’s just the first week”, “our guys are working to get better” and “we have to watch their technique”, expressed “confidence in the guys we have” and pulled out the “coverage helps us” and “there’s lots of different ways to get to the QB” chestnuts.

  23. James Z says:

    With those grades on the DL take a guess on what Belichick might have in mind for the SH’s on offense…

  24. Justin Mullikin says:

    I enjoyed the Podcast very much. I hope it continues after each game. 🙂

  25. clbradley17 says:

    2020 Week 1: Seahawks at Falcons | Seahawks All Access

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqk35QuhEOM&ab_channel=SeattleSeahawks

  26. cha says:

    Just for reference, the 2019 PFF grades for our DL pass rushers.

    Bruce Irvin: 62.9, Rank: 70
    Benson Mayowa: 60.1 Rank: 83
    Rasheem Green: 57.3 Rank: 89
    LJ Collier: 48.6 Rank: 99

  27. Luca Brasi says:

    According to PFF, Seattle flew 3,000 miles across the country and beat down what most say is a respectable team in their own house by 13 points with only 4 starter-caliber players on D, and 5 on O. What were the grades for the Falcons?!? Sure, there are a lot of things to improve, and the D-line is a ruptured achilles. Say what you want, that PFF system just don’t seem right.

    • Rob Staton says:

      Why Luca?

      Because it didn’t just say, ‘flawless’ and leave it at that?

      • The PFF ratings align to reputation far too often to depend on, and as we know withut looking outside of the Seahawks in recent years, reputation does not equal impact.

      • God of Thunder says:

        Hey my grouchy metre pinged at the hostile reply to that guy Rob. I think a number of us fairly neutral observers would agree that the scores didn’t reflect how smooth we looked (as an offensive unit especially). Yeah maybe reputation does play a role re the scores. As another poster puts it.

      • Luca Brasi says:

        Haha! No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I agree with your take on pretty much every area of need and improvement I’ve heard you identify, for individuals and position groups alike. The corners were a major eyesore in that game. And the D-line situation alone will be deadly if they don’t do something, if for no other reason than half the guys will expire on the field from injury and exhaustion.

        My question is more of PFF. I confess upfront I haven’t read their methodology, assuming it’s available. It just seems implausible that a team with only 9 “starter” caliber performances could deliver such a convincing win on a long road trip like that against a decent team like Atlanta presumably are, and wind up ranked 4-8 in most power rankings.

        How many starter caliber performances were the Falcons graded for? Or do both sides grade out incredibly poorly and, in effect, PFF is saying this game just sucked in terms of NFL skills? Does performance on 4th down mid-game count the same as performance in garbage time?

  28. charlietheunicorn says:

    PC mentioned the team speed on defense multiple times
    The local radio talking heads noted team speed in practice multiple times
    My eyes said they were faster in the LB/SS area of the team….. week #1

    We all know “speed kills”, so does the defense have enough speed to compensate for other shortcomings? Enabling Seattle to be around an end of the year top 15 defense?

    • Rob Staton says:

      “We all know “speed kills”, so does the defense have enough speed to compensate for other shortcomings?”

      Speed is great and will be very useful because it has been an issue for some time.

      But you can’t compensate for a lack of D-line talent and depth with speed at the second level. The two things need to work hand in hand. If you’re creating pressure and moving the QB up front and you have players flying around to make plays too — that’s the winning combo.

    • GerryG says:

      Having great team speed is fantastic, and I am all for it.

      But I fail to see how the D is really that much faster this season, aside from Mayowa replacing the rotting corpse of Z Ansah.

      Brooks isnt really playing. Adams is great, but he isnt ET in terms of speed, I guess he plays a little faster than Bradly Mcdougal, definitely more impactful. Irvin is fast, but so is Michael Kendrick.

  29. Trevor says:

    Most teams if they have a blatant glaring weakness try to address it by adding either a high high quality depth or add a ton of depth and competition.

    Scary part is the Hawks did neither. They don’t have any depth at all and very little quality. Poona and Reed aren’t great but what happens if one of them gets hurt? Same is Benson or Bruce.

    The state of the DL and how it was not addressed is the most mind boggling personnel decision in the PC/JS era.

  30. Sea Mode says:

    Another one of Rob’s opinions proving to be true:

    Why does there seem to be more buzz about WR Jaylen Waddle than there is about his teammate Devonta Smith, even though Smith is far more accomplished at Alabama? What’s the sentiment inside scouting circles?

    I can tell you that’s not true inside of scouting circles, as scouts have Smith graded a half-round earlier than Waddle. Although in the case of Waddle, just a few scouts grade underclassmen.

    Based on highlight reels though, Waddle is a better deep threat and game-breaker as well as a terrific return specialist. Smith is much more polished, and I consider him a slightly sturdier, more advanced version of Jerry Jeudy.

    https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-draft-rumors-news-pauline-alabama-smith-waddle

  31. Sea Mode says:

    Gregg Bell
    @gbellseattle
    ·15h

    Pete Carroll thinks the new speed, aggressiveness, swagger on the #Seahawks’ changed defense showed up big-ly in the opener.

    “The message is clear: We’re coming out to knock the hell out of you.”

  32. Logan Lynch says:

    I’m very interested to see how the gameplans for each team shake out on Sunday night. I have a feeling SEA is going to sell out a bit to stop the run and make Cam beat them through the air. Knowing Bill, he will probably plan for that and have Cam throw the ball more. Stopping the run needs to happen, otherwise it will be a long night for the defense. On offense, I expect SEA to run the ball more than week 1, but still give Russ the flexibility to make calls and checks at the line. I could see a big day for the TE group.

    • Gohawks5151 says:

      I think you are going to see a little more base (Oh no….) due to the run. They had 7 and 8 OL in some formations last week. Maybe more Brooks on the field if the choose to play Irvin down on the line. I hope they add Rush from the practice squad to the DL. They are going to need some size. I think Adams may play a more traditional Kam/deathbacker role. A stricter cover 3 overall. Time for the DBs to earn their money. If Russ races out to a big lead again and forces Cam to pass it would play to Seattle’s strengths more. Agree on TE group

  33. dcd2 says:

    For the Pats game, does anything worry you on their offense?

    Who do we think will match up on Edelman? He seems like the only real receiving threat, and I’m not sure putting Blair on him is a great plan. Ugo only played special teams, and I’m not sure he’s even quick enough to stay up. Is Dunbar a sticky CB? Would we put him at NB and play Flowers more at corner?

    Cam ran quite a bit, and most of it was be design. Wags/Brooks/KJ as spies? Jamal as spy?

    Just wondering what we might scheme for them, as their strengths and weaknesses seem quite pronounced.

    • Aaron says:

      What worries me the most is the Pats run run run and we just keep giving up a ton of yardage. The Pats end up dominating time of possession. They play keep away from Russ. When we do get the ball they give our o line fits with stunts and such. When we try to run they deploy an attacking front to give our o line fits.

      As for who covers Edelman, I’m thinking you should put one person on him the whole game. I’d go with Shaq or Dunbar. He’s their only receiving threat that can give us fits.

      I’m pretty concerned about this game. As long as BB is in NE he’s gonna find a way to take away your biggest strengths and attack your biggest weaknesses. He’s a damn good coach, but that goes without saying.

      Game prediction
      NE: 21
      SEA: 23

      Last second Myers FG ftw…

      • dcd2 says:

        That’s my thought as well. Try to take the air out of the ball, especially with Cam. Their RB’s don’t scare me much, but Cam is a huge dude. He’s bigger than Bruce and damn near as big as Mayowa.

        I’d like to see someone stick to Edelman too, but I’m not sure Blair can do it.

        On offense, I think this could be a really nice game for Lockett and Oldsen. DK is gonna have his hands full with Gilmore.

  34. Sea Mode says:

    He’s not wrong!

    Adam Schefter
    @AdamSchefter
    ·1h

    Bill Belichick this morning on Russell Wilson, the QB that the Patriots will be facing Sunday night in Seattle: “Honestly I think he’s in a way underrated by the media or the fans, I don’t know. But I don’t really see anybody better than this player.”

  35. Gaux Hawks says:

    i’d like yo see the PFF scores for both teams side by side… that would be telling.

    • Gaux Hawks says:

      Ouch!

      “Selected at 16th overall in the 2020 NFL Draft, rookie cornerback A.J. Terrell was expected to slot right into the Falcons defense as its No.1 corner. He had a long afternoon against the likes of D.K. Metcalf and Tyler Lockett. Lined up at wide corner for 84% of his total snaps, he surrendered a completion on every single one of his targets in coverage.” -PFF

    • Rob Staton says:

      Atlanta’s defense:

      Deion Jones — 79.9
      Deadrin Senat — 76.0
      Takk McKinley — 72.0
      Tyeler Davison — 71.6
      Damontae Kazee — 68.8
      Grady Jarrett — 68.4
      Foyesade Oluokun — 65.4
      Keanu Neal — 62.9
      Blidi Wreh-Wilson — 62.9
      Jacob Tuioti-Mariner — 60.0
      Allen Bailey — 55.6
      Dante Fowler — 52.7
      Darqueze Dennard — 50.8
      Isaiah Oliver — 50.0
      A.J. Terrell — 43.4
      John Cominsky — 40.9
      Steven Means — 35.8
      Mykal Walker — 32.6
      Ricardo Allen — 29.8

      Atlanta’s offense:

      Calvin Ridley — 89.5
      Julio Jones — 83.8
      Matt Ryan — 83.8
      Russell Gage — 76.4
      Jake Matthews — 70.6
      James Carpenter — 67.8
      Kaleb McGary — 61.8
      Hayden Hurst — 59.2
      Matt Gono — 58.5
      Luke Stocker — 58.2
      Chris Lindstrom — 58.1
      Ito Smith — 58.0
      Matt Hennessy — 57.5
      Brandon Powell — 56.6
      Alex Mack — 56.0
      Brian Hill — 53.0
      Todd Gurley — 48.7

      FYI — Gurley was ranked 59th out of 59 running backs this week.

      • Gaux Hawks says:

        interesting to see that their WRs were all rated better than ours (dramatically) and how closely the QBs were rated (considering my eye test).

        sad to see gurley so low. wonder how much that has to do with the defense (doubtful given their scores). i like PFF, but definitely not worth “dying on a hill for…”

        thanks for sharing, rob!

      • AlaskaHawk says:

        Very interesting stats. It’s fun to compare the two teams. I understand Metcalf getting a lower grade because of his drops.

        Gurley looked pretty washed up to me. The Rams are advertising a three headed running back attack, so they should get some yards out of those three. I don’t think they will really miss Gurley, he only had a couple good years there.

  36. Logan Lynch says:

    Christmas added to the PS and Lenoir cut per Mike Dugar. I’d imagine Christmas will be one of the PS callups for the game.

  37. Jake says:

    If only we could have had Jessie Bates III or Jordan Poyer at Safety instead of Jamal Adams, imagine how much better how defense would have been!

    Jessie Bates III – 91.6 PFF Grade – 5 tkls, 3 targets, 1 reception allowed
    Jordan Poyer – 90.7 PFF Grade – 3 tkls, 1 target, 1 reception allowed
    Jamal Adams – 85.8 PFF Grade – 10 tkls, 2 targets, 1 reception allowed, 1 sack

    Jamal: 3rd defensive back in NFL history to record 10+ tackles, 1 sack, 1 TFL, and 2 PBUs in a single game.
    PFF: But did you see Jesse Bates 5 tackles?!

    • Rob Staton says:

      With respect, have you watch how they played? And Jamal Adams’ grade is probably impacted by the fact he ran into a team mate and gave up an easy touchdown.

      • Lewis says:

        Think he was being sarcastic and demonstrating that pff scores have some limitations

      • Jake says:

        I did have the unfortunate opportunity of watching the bengals-chargers game (brother in law is a big fan) and I can remember Bates popping up a time or two with some big hits. My point is obviously that the PFF grades are flawed particularly when looked in small samples (like a single game). I am not disagreeing with your assessment that the d-line did not particularly impress but PFF grades have always bothered me because they are a black box stat that misconstrues reality. Your argument was based on PFF stats so I thought it was interesting to point out how bad they seem to be.

        Last example – pick your player out of these 2 QB’s from last week:

        Player A: PFF grade 96.0 – 32/44, 72.6% completion %, 8.3 yards/attempt 364 yards, 4 TD’s
        Player B: PFF grade 91.2 – 31/35, 88.6% completion %, 9.2 yards/attempt 322 yards, 4 TD’s

        Player A is Aaron Rodgers and Player B is Russell Wilson who threw the same # of TD’s as incompletions

        • cha says:

          Isn’t the whole point of PFF to get beyond the easy counting stats and get to the heart of the player’s total performance?

          Anyway. I’d wager this factored into the PFF grade:

          AR Sunday: 0 sacks, 2 QB hits

          RW Sunday: 3 sacks, 10 QB hits

        • Rob Staton says:

          I’m not sure that’s a great example though. By all accounts Rodgers was sensational at the weekend. Wilson, in the first half, held the ball too long and absorbed a few sacks. If both players played brilliant but Rodgers avoided those unnecessary sacks, it’s not unrealistic that he graded a few points higher. And based on what I saw of the highlights, Rodgers thoroughly deserved his lofty grade.

          You have to remember these grades account for the good and the bad. And while Adams was fantastic (and received an excellent grade) he also cost the team a touchdown by running into Griffin.

          • Jake says:

            Obviously we disagree about the significance of PFF grades and how they correlate to actual performance. The methodology itself of the statistic itself is a bit of a black box and is subjective (you can read that on their own website – https://www.pff.com/grades) which is why it bothers me so much. Anyway, we can agree to disgree.

            Go hawks!

    • Volume12 says:

      What was Jonathan Abram’s grade? Played like a man possessed. Flat-out stud.

  38. pdway says:

    I’ll say this about the PFF scores . . . . excellent conversation starter. Good mid-week topic for sure.

    Keep it up, and this blog may just have some staying power. 🙂

  39. Rob Staton says:

    Russell Wilson, asked if he communicated to the team essentially what Florio reported.

    Practically confirmed it.

    “I want to be remembered. I want to be able to leave a legacy that people can’t ever forget.”

    “I come to this game to be the best in the world. That’s the bottom line.”

    “I’m trying to break away, you know what I mean, to be the best that’s ever done this.”

    Big shout out to all the people on twitter who said Florio was talking bollocks.

    • cha says:

      What a crucial offseason 2021 is going to be. Replacing all those one year contracts, bolstering up the pass rush, and only one pick in the top 3 rounds.

    • Scot04 says:

      Good for Wilson. Sadly it didn’t lead to a big improvement on the D-line or Pass Rush. Can’t imagine he’s to thrilled with our offseason.

    • Alex H says:

      Big ambitions. He’ll need to win at least 7 Super Bowls. One down, 6 more to go. Assuming he retires at 40, he has 8-9 years to win 6. That’s winning two super bowls every three years.

      • Rob Staton says:

        He doesn’t literally have win more Super Bowls than Tom Brady to be remembered in lofty terms.

        But there’s nothing wrong with aspiring to that either.

        • charlietheunicorn says:

          Just win 1 and you are great, win 2 and you are epic and win 3 or more and you are GOAT material. If a guy doesn’t have that type of hunger, then he won’t reach the summit / goals he puts forth throughout his career. Just another way that RW is more than an average NFL QB.

  40. cha says:

    Did LJ Collier just say he wasn’t in shape last year because he didn’t know how the NFL offseason works?

    //smacks forehead

    • CaptainJack says:

      He checks off all the boxes.

      Unproductive in college, Short, unathletic, injury prone, and can’t even bothered to get in shape as a professional athlete.

      How did this dude even get drafted

    • Rob Staton says:

      Sounds very much a player who realised his ambition by being drafted early.

      Not by becoming a great NFL player.

      • cha says:

        Him and Green and have the drive and personality equivalent of a crouton.

        The only way these guys got drafted is desperation to fill a DL spot. NOT because they fit what the PC Seahawks are looking for.

        • Rob Staton says:

          They have the same amount of fire as a wet arctic cod

          • cha says:

            Didn’t the Seahawks make a big deal about 3-4 years ago about some kind of psychological profiling in their scouting and evaultions? Like ‘we know these guys are athletes but can they stand up to the rigors of intense competition’?

            They must have either quit it or decided not to factor it as much.

            Penny eating fast food his rookie year

            Collier showing up out of shape because he ‘didn’t know how an offseason in the NFL works’

            Green revealing a breakthrough in his training regimen this summer – drinking water

            Jennings not even making the roster as a 4th round pick

            • Darnell says:

              It’s early, and while we’re not privy to everything, it feels like the 2020 class deviated from that type in a positive way.

              Lewis, Taylor and Brooks come across as grown men who are cut from the right cloth. DK and Blair too going back a year.

              I wonder if that was ever part of the Clowney discussion; nice player for sure, but not pissed off for greatness like Doug, Sherm, and now Jamal.

              • Rob Staton says:

                “I wonder if that was ever part of the Clowney discussion; nice player for sure, but not pissed off for greatness like Doug, Sherm, and now Jamal.”

                Then sign someone else.

                • CaptainJack says:

                  It’s one game, but Clowney certainly looked “pissed off for greatness” Monday night in Denver.

                  • Darnell says:

                    Did he? he had two solo tackles.

                    I guess what I am trying to say is he has never struck me as someone cut from that Sherm, Kam, Doug, Marshawn ‘Dog’ mold. He seems satisfied being a mercenary, who come 2021 will probably be on his 4th team in 4 years.

            • CaptainJack says:

              To be fair in regards to Green, he was seen as a late first round talent who was available late round three. It’s hard to criticize that pick in context. Was there a dline drafted after Green that year that’s been any good?

              However, the Penny and Collier picks are inexcusable. In round one, even at the end, you’ve got to be able to identify some players that are at least “mentally ready” to be pros. We also saw them take a guy early round two (we all know who I’m referring to) who didn’t even like football.

              Drafting first rounders and early second rounders who are seriously unable to make the slightest impact year one has really hurt the past few years.

              • Big Mike says:

                Yep, been saying that for some time now. It has felt at times, including this year with Brooks that PCJS have been trying to hard to outsmart the league rather than pick a stud. Obviously the jury is out on Brooks but I don’t envision Collier playing in many Pro Bowls. Outside of Frank they definitely seem to have a blind spot on the dline. Even Bellichick has one at WR but it’s more crippling when it’s at the LOS.

                • BobbyK says:

                  Probably the only reason they hit on Frank was because of his checkered past. Had he not had the domestic abuse issues, he would have easily been a first-round pick based on production and workout numbers. That’s more looking past character than anything else – which was fine in that case because Frank hasn’t had any more personal problems like that and it’s clear he has fire in his belly for football, which Green and Collier obviously do not.

                  When they drafted Collier, they said he was a try hard guy who had fire because he yelled at Tom Cable during the Senior Bowl. He probably didn’t yell because he didn’t have “fire” but rather he’s entitled based on his rookie season and what we know about him now.

          • bootfall says:

            I would take that as a compliment, as Arctic cod is extremely 🔥🔥🔥

        • God of Thunder says:

          Agreed, kind of.

          How’s about we wait a season or two to judge them though?

          A lot of these kids grow up in circumstances we probably would never encounter. Like knowing about nutrition and say sleep patterns.

          I was an amateur athlete with multiple University degrees. Not long ago for a lark I attended a short talk by a young nutritionist. Holy crap, I must’ve learned three things I did not know. Humbled me quickly.

          • cha says:

            Like I said above, my problem isn’t the players as much as the Seahawks.

            I’m quite certain a guy like Collier had some kind of guidance on food and fitness in college. And I’m quite certain the Seahawks sat down with him after drafting him in the first round and put together a workout plan for the offseason.

            To get drafted so high and signed to a big contract, and then show up to camp out of shape and then publicly say ‘I didn’t know how NFL offseasons work’ is a red flag that appears to have been missed in scouting.

        • pdway says:

          I’m with you on Green – but let’s get a little more sample size on Collier before we write him off.

          I saw him doing some positive things on Sunday. .. .i’m holding out a little hope he can be a decent starter.

  41. cha says:

    DK, at what point did you decide that no one can guard you?

    DK: When I was born

    LOL

  42. Rusty says:

    That’s the old PFF grading scale , more recently they’ve described ~65 as an average starter at that position. 59 and below is backup level

    • Rob Staton says:

      They should make that easier to find on their website then!

      • Rusty says:

        Yeah I couldn’t find anything to confirm it … but I swear I read a PFF post outlining their new grades like a year ago …

        But yeah doesn’t exactly change your point. Our entire Dline was either backup level or below replacement … whatever lol

  43. Sea Mode says:

    Big opening section on Schotty and the “let Russ cook” movement:

    https://www.si.com/.amp/nfl/2020/09/17/brian-schottenheimer-russell-wilson-week-1-cook

  44. Alex says:

    If this is what an easy win looks like I’ll take it every time. You can slant the story however you want- but end of the day it was a comfortable victory. I know some work PFF does is very good, but it shouldn’t be the tell all. That’s like using BMI to judge if you’re in shape or not. It’s in vogue right now to torch the team over the dlineman but right now it is what it is. Be interesting if you showed Atlanta’s grades next to ours. No pre season doesn’t help either in terms of overall execution.

  45. Shamblin_Mound says:

    I really appreciate the contributions Robbie brings to these discussions. Part of what I’ve valued most about SDB over the years is the focus on what can be done to maximize the pieces that are in place, just like with draft analysis it’s important to look at what a player can do rather than focusing too much on specific limitations. That’s not to say everything needs to be rainbows and bubbles, honest self reflection is absolutely a critical part of quality evaluation. I just feel like at some point I get more from the former as a reader/listener. Plus as we’ve seen, the team seems to be adapting to a more creative pass rush attack because of the limitations on DL, and we’ve seen exciting results so far.

    I’m so excited to see us face off against NE this weekend. Two model franchises led by hall of fame coaches that have undergone fundamental shifts in what had been long established and successful formulas. With only one week of tape for each, this could be a really cool coaching chess match.

    I feel like in a way the teams have switched identities, we used to be the defense-focused team that was built to run the ball and control the clock, and they used to be a team that was built to maximize their offensive firepower and keep their opponent on their heels. It might be too early in the season to say that really, but it’s sure the way things look as of now. Either way what an exciting contest for primetime, there’s every reason to expect both teams will shine on that stage.

    Thanks to Rob and Robbie and GO HAWKS! My prediction: SEA 28 – NE 24, lead changes galore and a nailbiter finish with Tyler Lockett being even more clutch than we’ve come to expect.

  46. Noah Parker says:

    Love the PFF grades. Will you be doing this every week?

  47. Adog says:

    Lots of smoke is blown about concerning the Seattle pass rush and how they addressed it in this off season. Atlanta put up some yards, but they are not close in offensive scheme to the other three teams in the nfc west in my opinion. Those offenses seem to operate on the idea of getting rid of the ball quick and running zone read type plays. Who better to combat this than jamal adams? I read that Carrol said that this defense is faster than any he has in awhile. Surely that is no coincidence when you consider their nfc west foes. This is a bend don’t break defense…so when these nfc west teams get into the red zone and you got all that speed in secondary bottled up and at the line of scrimmage…I believe we’ll see turnovers. However the question remains…does this scheme impact the importance of a pass rush?

    • Rob Staton says:

      “Lots of smoke is blown about concerning the Seattle pass rush and how they addressed it in this off season.”

      Nope.

      People voiced legitimate concerns. You saying ‘lots of smoke is blown’ isn’t a counter to the serious discussion that was held. It’s simply an attempt to dismiss the opposing arguments without actually presenting anything in response. It’s bollocks.

      “Atlanta put up some yards, but they are not close in offensive scheme to the other three teams in the nfc west in my opinion. Those offenses seem to operate on the idea of getting rid of the ball quick and running zone read type plays. Who better to combat this than jamal adams?”

      If you think one player is going to be able to stop three of the most prolific offense’s in the NFL you’re in for a let down.

      “I read that Carrol said that this defense is faster than any he has in awhile. Surely that is no coincidence when you consider their nfc west foes.”

      It’s not a coincidence. But what has this got to do with the arguments about the D-line which you dismissed as ‘blown smoke’?

      “However the question remains…does this scheme impact the importance of a pass rush?”

      Yeah who needs a pass rush.

      • Adog says:

        No I don’t think one player can stop a whole team, but Adam’s is much more suited to counter those offenses than Clowney. Adam’s affects the whole field… Clowney the middle of the line of scrimmage. How important is a pass rush when the nfc west teams throw the ball on three step drops? It seems speed from the linebacker and safety spots to the edges on quick screens and middle is more relevant than a Clowney busting through after the ball has been released. Hence we got the Jordyn Brooks draft pick. I think they wanted Clowney, he did not want them, and the Seahawks made a brilliant adaptation…speed and knock the hell out of you at the linebacker and safety spots. The smoke is supposed to lift from the city of Seattle this weekend…and I predict that it will lift from the blog after they play a Patriots offense that the Seahawks d is built for.

        • Rob Staton says:

          “No I don’t think one player can stop a whole team, but Adam’s is much more suited to counter those offenses than Clowney.”

          This is silly though Adog. You can’t say a ‘safety’ is more equipped to defend THREE teams than a defensive end (who they said was the priority to keep). Totally different positions, both capable of impacting games in very different ways and both needed.

          “How important is a pass rush when the nfc west teams throw the ball on three step drops?”

          It’s very important against any opponent.

          “It seems speed from the linebacker and safety spots to the edges on quick screens and middle is more relevant than a Clowney busting through after the ball has been released.”

          Why don’t you ask the Niners about that?

          “the Seahawks made a brilliant adaptation”

          LOL. Yeah, sure they did.

          “they play a Patriots offense that the Seahawks d is built for.”

          Amazing — they are built to defend the three NFC West teams and now the Pats.

          Who knew all you needed to do to create the greatest defense ever was create the worst D-line in the league and spend two high picks on a safety.

          • Adog says:

            Clowney started this year like last year… clearly out of shape. Adams has played one game and dominated…. Clowney dominated one game all of last season. Adams can cover, tackle and blitz at an all pro level. Clowney once again is out of shape and/or hurt for half the year.

            • Rob Staton says:

              Yeah Clowney looked really out of shape against Cincy here in week one:

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPsqtQPe5I

              Big fat useless Clowney, sprinting around like a man possessed.

              And that pick six in week four? Cumbersome.

              Not to mention that ‘non dominating’ game against the Eagles in the playoffs where the coach credited him with being a one-man band on defense.

              Seahawks fans don’t half talk some rubbish sometimes.

  48. Bankhawk says:

    Rob, superb chemistry between you and Robbie! Where did he start out? How’d you get together?
    Keep ’em coming!

  49. dcd2 says:

    Some top tier talent is opting out of the NCAA season of late. Penei Sewell (T-UO) recently and Shaun Wade (CB-tOSU) today. So disappointing to not see that game this year. So many great games that got scrapped that won’t happen again for years, if ever.

    2021 draft is going to be something else.

    • Tree says:

      I would also appreciate the PFF grades each week. I also would be interested to see what the PFF grades were for the Patriots in 2017 and 18. The question is whether this line is good enough for the Hawks to win the SB where they have an elite offensive and a potentially elite back 7 (which has a number of hitters and a number of one time pro bowlers and two all pros). Could the Hawks use that last bit of $ to sign Snack or make a
      mid season Diggs type of trade for a DL? Will the Hawks continue to use Adams as a chess piece and blitz him? Can Blair make an impact with his playmaking and hitting while he learns the nickel? Will they get Brooks on the field for his speed and hitting more as the season progresses? Will D Taylor play and be worthy of a high second by the end of the year? Can Collier, Green, and Robinson improve with playing time? Hope so.

      • Rob Staton says:

        The Pats had plenty of good front seven players in 2017 and 2018.

        It’s wrong to suggest they didn’t.

        • Tree says:

          I don’t have a PFF account but an article I read said the 2017 Patriots had the worst PFF pass rush ranking in the league. The whole debate of the off-season has been whether the Hawks could take the next step despite their DL. You just wrote an article noting PFF grades of the DL. The 2017 and 2018 Patriots are recent examples of teams with weak defensive lines who went to the SB with a strong back 7 and a good offense. The fact a poorly run team paid a boat load of $ to a seven sack a year guy doesn’t change that. https://www.pff.com/news/pro-have-the-patriots-rectified-their-pass-rush-from-2017

          • Rob Staton says:

            I’ve already explained this to death.

            Any time your argument is ‘the Patriots’ you’ve lost the argument.

            Why?

            Tom Brady

            Bill Belichick

            And the Pats had far better players on their DL and pass rush than Seattle has now.

          • cha says:

            If anyone could do what the Patriots do B & B wouldn’t have 6 rings and 10 SB appearances.

            • Tree says:

              Pete
              Russell
              Is there a team in the league that has a more similar duo? Obviously different teams/players with different styles and strengths (e.g. we have better skill guys and the Patriots have a better OL) and weaknesses but lots of similarities in terms of roster construction on D to those Patriots teams. And although Pete is not as creative as Bill they already showed they will blitz and move Adams around and at least one game play four safeties (sound familiar?). Point is it can be done and if you are going to hold PFF as benchmark then comparing their ratings to another similarly constructed recent super bowl teams is relevant to the discussion.

              • Rob Staton says:

                Cheerleading isn’t a counter, tree.

                • Submanjoe says:

                  I still think the Seahawks are one of a few teams with a legitimate shot to win a superbowl, because Pete and Russ. They did it once and nearly twice. There are only kansas city, green bay, new orleans, seattle, plus Bill and Tom in new england and tampa, and oh by the way Foles in chicago, who have qbs who have won super bowls the last 11 years and are active. Alot of teams get there once, niners, rams, panthers, falcons, and don’t go back. And Rodgers and Brees haven’t been back in a decade or more… however, pete and wilson haven’t in six years either. Just fun facts, obviously doesn’t mean anything. For arguments sake though, the seahawks have a qb who’s done it and gone back, and no other team does now that Tom has left Bill.

  50. Brian Barlow says:

    PC has been watching old Hawks/Pats game film. He remembers in ’16 unleashing a previously unknown RB named Prosise and whipping up on Brady and company. DeeJay Dallas is most hyped rookie in camp and gets a healthy scratch in week 1? They were hiding him…even marching out Homer to cover his scent. Get ready for the 2nd coming of Prosise…. SCHOTTY DOES DALLAS!

  51. drrew76 says:

    ESPN had the pass rush win rate at 12th in the league.

    I believe PFF also revised their pressure rate upward after viewing the all 22.

    • Rob Staton says:

      I can only imagine there were a LOT of bad week one pass rushing performances then.

      Because in no way was that ‘good’ last weekend.

      Which is why Pete and Ken Norton said what they said in their press conferences.

      I also suspect the score is impacted by the blitzing which was admittedly a success in week one.

      • cha says:

        I thought it was telling in Norton’s press conf that the reporter asked about “pressure” from the front 4 and got lectured a bit about how the media loves sacks and sacks get too much attention and just getting the QB’s feet moving is a laudable goal as well. Before launching into the clichés about it’s early and its a work in progress, etc.

        A bit defensive and telling on yourself a bit with that answer.

  52. Chris Alexander says:

    I have a love-hate relationship with PFF with their grades befuddling me more often than not. However, they provide a very good platform for comparing match-ups from a relative standpoint.

    For example

    Seattle’s starting defensive line (Week 1):

    Jarran Reed – 60.6
    Poona Ford— 58.7
    Benson Mayowa — 56.3
    L.J. Collier — 55.7

    New England’s starting offensive line (Week 1):

    LT Isaiah Wynn – 78.4
    LG Joe Thuney – 82.3
    C David Andrews – 80.4
    RG Shaw Mason – 89.2
    RT Jermaine Eluemunor – 75.2

    Seattle’s defense is predicated on “our 4 beating your 5” but Seattle’s 4 (in Week 1) averaged a PFF grade of 57.825 whereas New England’s 5 (in Week 1) averaged a PFF grade of 81.1. Ouch!

    Good luck on Sunday night!
    (kinda seems like the D-line is gonna need it)

    • McZ says:

      Damn it, Jermaine Eluemunor was a prospect I wanted badly when the Ravens waived him two years ago. And, btw, he’s a Brit.

      I think we can forget about generating consistent pressure. This has everything to do with simply having no speed off the edges.

  53. Denver Hawker says:

    Chubb haunts me every week- what could have been.

  54. https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/1306732140982349827?s=19

    This doesnt look bad.

    Better than NEP. 😁

    And look at Phily who gave up 8 sacks.

    • McZ says:

      The Eags fandom is blaming the OL for those sacks, it was darn obvious it was Wentz consistently losing his mind in the pocket, becoming wildly inaccurate and fumbling the ball.

      Really, he’s a fifth year QB, and he was playing like a rookie.

  55. charlietheunicorn says:

    The Seahawks were tied for 19th in ESPN’s Pass Block Win Rate (50%) for Week 1.
    They were 28th (53.5%) last year. ~ B. Henderson / ESPN

    Encouraging.

  56. SonGoku says:

    Do you think Dunlap is available via trade? Think the compensation wouldn’t be that high.

  57. Rob Staton says:

    Re-watching the game again this morning. Few quick notes:

    Damien Lewis — as good as advertised. Had a couple of ugly plays including a terrible hold when he was flat-footed but he looks at home in the NFL. Terrific pick. More like that please.

    Shaquill Griffin — deary me. No way should they pay him big money.

    Cody Barton — Good grief. Re-watch the Todd Gurley GL TD. He was in prime position to get a stop and just flopped into the pile. And then had the temerity to get up waving his arms saying he didn’t get in. He had NO need to dive into the pile. No reason to come off his feet. He just falls on to the pile of bodies and Gurley literally jumps over him. If he stands up on the GL he makes the stop.

    DK Metcalf — I enjoy watching him as much as everyone else. Incredible talent. But he’s 6-4 and 230lbs and still gets jammed by CB’s (in this instance, Isaiah Oliver). We all know he can run past people and on crossing routes he’s extremely difficult to stop. He won’t realise his massive potential though until he starts using his size to his advantage.

    • cha says:

      Pick up anything on Pocic?

      • Rob Staton says:

        Didn’t plant the anchor enough. Lacks power, still. Seemingly always on the move. When he squares up he generally contains but when a DL attacked the A gap he gave up some interior pressures. Would prefer to see a center who can get after players at different angles, latch-on and contain with power. On the Grady Jarrett sack he actually engages Jarrett who then just brushes him off and stunts around for the sack. A bit more violence there and it never happens.

        To me he’s an odd-fit for this line. You’ve got massive size and power across the board and that’s just not Pocic.

        What he does do well is avoid the Joey Hunt beasted back into the QB stuff. When he’s engaged by a DL front-on he holds his ground, which is what he always did well at LSU.

        • cha says:

          Thanks. So I can see a 55 PFF grade from that.

        • Gohawks5151 says:

          I remember thinking that he was a little tall for the position. 6’6″ i believe. Not being a natural bender puts him in bad leverage situations. Hard to drop the anchor for him. A passive approach in his hands doesn’t help either.

        • Lewis says:

          Hopefully he can continue to improve, since unless they resign Britt, help is NOT on the way.

          • Rob Staton says:

            I wish they’d been able to get Cesar Ruiz. He and Lewis could’ve been the foundation of a highly ranked OL.

            • Submanjoe says:

              Sometimes this FO just needs to take the obvious olineman in the draft. Years ago Holmgren drafted hutchison who everyone knew would be a star. Woo so sexy a guard. Badass player they never shoulda let go. A few years later max unger. Brilliant, stud, we knew he’d be center and anchor it for years, he did. Until Jimmy Graham… i guess not much point here except this FO doesn’t get those obvious offensive linemen. The center for Indianapolis a few years ago was one, Ruiz was one this year. I have some hope Lewis can be one…

  58. cha says:

    I wonder if unsigned players like Matthews and Britt have been emboldened by Clowney’s negotiation a bit. Clowney basically got he was being offered in the spring and had suitors.

    I didn’t hear any rumors of them having visits or getting offers this week (I guess we can count Matthews and Denver as last week) and I was surprised by that.

    Speaking of having a market, LAC just lost Pouncey for the season so Britt may have another suitor.

    https://twitter.com/Chargers/status/1306687853078872065

  59. Logan Lynch says:

    My one thought about the game on Sun night is that it will be physical and ugly. I think SEA is going to try and really smack Cam when he runs and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Stidham have to take a few snaps. Seems like a good opportunity to get Brooks some more snaps.

  60. Sea Mode says:

    I don’t know who it will be, but with the insecurity looming over the cap next season, I foresee it will be a buyers’ market at the trade deadline with teams out of contention looking to dump salaries. It’s the last straw of hope I am clinging to that PC/JS actually had/have a plan for the pass rush this off-season.

    • Steve Nelsen says:

      I think PCJS had a plan, and backup plans, for the offseason. But, I don’t think things have gone according to plan.
      1. They wanted to sign Jarran Reed and they did that.
      2. They made a push to sign Clowney but when he chose to let things play out, they decided to move to Plan B.
      3. I think we all assumed Plan B would be signing some of the other top-level FA pass rushers. But, instead it was Jamal Adams and some modest FAs who were familiar with our system.
      4. They planned on adding some D-linemen in the draft and added two. They hopefully weren’t planning on much rookie production because they may get very little.
      5. They were planning on some improvement from Collier and Green. The jury is out there after just one week.
      6. PC specifically mentioned the possibility of some surprise cuts based on the 2021 salary cap. That did not materialize.
      7. JS has had success signing veteran DTs for rotational roles at minimum salaries. Not this year so far. Maybe with the additional health risks, fewer players are willing to play this year cheap.
      8. PC specifically mentioned that JS “was working on some things we didn’t know anything about.” Hail Mary.

      • Rob Staton says:

        “I think we all assumed Plan B would be signing some of the other top-level FA pass rushers. But, instead it was Jamal Adams and some modest FAs who were familiar with our system.”

        More like they got to within a month of the season starting and realised the only significant difference between the defense in 2019 and 2020 was swapping Clowney for Benson Mayowa so they gave up a kings ransom for Jamal Adams.

        Calling that ‘Plan B’ would be extremely generous.

      • cha says:

        5. They were planning on some improvement from Collier and Green. The jury is out there after just one week.

        I said this early in the offseason and I wish I was wrong.

        But it appears they have talked themselves into banking on serious improvements from Collier and Green.

  61. Jason says:

    Rob, long time reader first time…commenter?

    I love the realist (some would say pessimistic) tone you’ve taken with the Hawks this year, as it’s a good balance to what is on Field Gulls and other quality sites, and I fully agree that 2017-2019 was all building up to this offseason and JS underwhelmed.

    But that said, the team looked great in Week 1. It’s only one game, but they were impressive. Even on D, there was a physicality to them that we have not seen the past few years. They gave up a ton of yards, but to my eyes they were swarming to the ball and making hits.

    Atlanta has always given us trouble in the PC era, going back to 2010 the Falcons with Matt Ryan have scored 34, 30, 30, 10, 24, 36, and 34 pts (and that 10 point output in 2013 was a 2-8 team w/o Julio Jones). In that context, a fully healthy Falcons team putting up 25 points, with two garbage time scores, is a massive win.

    If the D can be a top 16 unit, and you pair that with a top 3 offense and excellent special teams…you can with a Super Bowl with that combination. I think this D will continue to give up a ton of yards but also create turnovers and make splash plays.

    • Rob Staton says:

      Hi Jason,

      The problem I have with your reply, and others like it, is you seem to have ignored any of the positive things I’ve said this week and only focused on the issues I’ve raised. In a podcast I said Jamal Adams’ performance was one of the best I’ve ever seen by a safety. I praised Pete Carroll’s willingness to adjust his offensive vision to match the players at his disposal. I highlighted the encouraging debut of Damien Lewis and the positive impact Lano Hill had.

      I also voiced some concerns — about the D-line (which looked as impotent as expected) and the poor performances of some members of the secondary.

      If you’re expectation was that I’d ignore these things in favor of simply calling it a ‘great win’ you are mistaken. Every week for a decade I’ve written an instant reaction post discussing pro’s and con’s.

      If people just want fluff and positivity for the sake of it, there are places providing that. I like to have a serious, thought provoking conversation about the team instead — not just churn out filler. Warts and all. Good and bad. My review of the team in Atlanta and their off-season has been completely fair and justified. And I’m not going to ignore things because in the past Atlanta have given them a game.

  62. AlaskaHawk says:

    Rob – Listened to the first 28 minutes of your podcast and will come back for more later.

    As far as the New England game goes, I like our chances if NE runs a lot. My thinking is that it will allow Wagner and Adams to get in on more tackles. So even though the seahawks defensive line will get moved around, running will play into the Seahawks strengths in tackling. On the other hand, that may make the passing attack more potent if we don’t expect it.

    As far as the way NE will defend. In the past, the Cardinals have loaded the defensive line against us, and been quite successful in that approach. With Seahawks using two tight ends, I expect to see 5-7 NE players up on the line. Either blitzing Wilson or trying to stop the run, it is effective either way. Wilson won’t have time for a long pass, so hopefully he will have some short quick passes in his arsenal. My prediction is that Wilson won’t have time for long developing passes.

    Overall – I agree that this is a winnable game.

  63. AlaskaHawk says:

    Also – how soon could we negotiate with Adams on a long term contract? Seems like the Seahawks have a little leverage this season if he is worried about an injury. Perhaps start at 15 million plus incentives and see what his agent says? I agree that he will probably end up closer to 20 million.

    • cha says:

      If they’re smart they’re talking now. NOW NOW NOW

      • Scot04 says:

        I think if they do it during the season the could possibly extend him with an additional 4 years at 17M per year. I think if after the season the numbers will jump. If Seahawks can extend him at 16-17M they should just do it. Not continue waiting until the market goes up even further. I would think the 2M over the current top safety money could do it, but would they go 4 years on the extension.

        • cha says:

          16-17m would be a gift.

          Teams that made the same trades ended up paying top market +20% at least. That’s in the $19m range. If Adams’ desire is to maximize his value he’ll just wait. There are a few safeties that are in line for hefty extensions and he’ll take their numbers and add his serious leverage to them and get paid like a king.

          The only hope at the moment is all his tweets about loving the Seahawks and the organization translate into a desire to lock in sooner rather than later.

      • McZ says:

        They absolutely have to. There is no way they can let him hit the open market.

    • Rob Staton says:

      I think if they start talks now and go in at $15m, it will have a massively negative reaction and could impact Adams’ play.

      The market has been set by Jalen Ramsey. They should’ve had a contract ready to rock when they made the trade.

      Now they might as well wait until later in the year and take the hit. A $20m APY is coming.

  64. Mark Anderson says:

    “How the Seahawks can beat the Patriots” ???? Impossible! How can we ever win a game without Clowney! We are done. Carol/Schneider are complete failures for not paying a ransom to Clowney. It’s a miracle that the hawks were even able to show up for the game with out Clowney.

    • Rob Staton says:

      I cleared this comment, because I wanted to highlight how thoroughly unhinged people have become.

      I receive messages like this daily. The number of people who have become so angry and bitter about a critical review of the off-season has been both unpredictable and disappointing.

      I thought Seahawks fans were a class above, across the board. A significant portion are just like every other fan base. Totally incapable of having an adult conversation about the team if there’s any criticism involved.

      How sad.

  65. Jason says:

    Hi Rob,

    I think your game review was totally fair (I didn’t/don’t listen to the podcast). I expected the D, based on the offseason and talent level, to look worse than it did. As another commenter pointed out, PFF describes an average starter at ~65, so in the context of their grades the Seattle D had two outstanding performers last week (which meets the eye test), six starters who were +/- 6 pts of average. two below average starters (Shaq and Q) and one very poor (Dunbar). Couple those grades with the results in context (how we’ve matched up with ATL in the past) and I think there is cause for optimism about not only the stars, but the mid-level and rotational players.

    In no way am I suggesting you should be more optimistic. But I am suggesting you should be careful not to let bias confirm your expectations.

    You bring up Lano Hill and I think he’s an interesting case. I was surprised to see PFF gave him a 65.8, frankly. He played 29 snaps and in that time got juked out of his shoes by Ridley on a 22 yard pass in 2Q, and was matched up against Julio (on only 1 of 2 snaps where Quandre was not on the field) and got beat for 44 yards where he was out of position and never looked for the ball. Ryan underthrew it or else it was probably a TD. To me, Lano looked like the weakest link the secondary when on the field and I’m convinced Ryan targeted him on that Julio play.

    • cha says:

      Hi Jason, welcome!

      You have some points, but with respect I think you’re looking at one game and putting too much emphasis on that.

      The Seahawks will have different style teams they face, different game plans and different injury situations over the course of the season. There’s no way we can take one game of data and model an entire outlook for the season on it. Even with as good as the offense is, you can’t count on the defense being given a leg up early and making the opposing offense chase them the rest of the game like they did in Atlanta.

      As for looking at confirmation bias, I’d suggest you look at the most recent press conferences with PC and Norton. Their answers, body language and facial expressions all indicate they know the DL is a work in progress and is going to be a real area of concern. Not only in pass rush but run defense as well. And given how poorly it rated last year with players like Clowney and Jefferson on the DL, and how much it cost the Seahawks in key games, and what PFF and the eye test from the Atlanta game showed, it’s completely reasonable to say the DL problem hasn’t been solved and has potential to really disrupt the season.

      • Jason says:

        Hey there – thank you.

        To your points: I absolutely am putting too much emphasis on one game – but intentionally. We only have one game of data to analyze though, and until the data begins to normalize it’s entertaining to look for unexpected outcomes and extrapolate. I think the Week 1 game qualifies as an unexpected outcome on many fronts.

        And it is without a doubt “reasonable” to think the DL is a real area of concern. I don’t even think one can rationally argue the opposite – that it’s “unreasonable.” And even more so, I continue to believe the DL is an area of concern, a massive one. But I am stating unequivocally that I think the D as a whole played better than expected in week 1, that the DL was slightly better than expected, and that with the offensive scheme it appears SEA intends to run, that the D as presently constructed can play a complementary role in a way we did not foresee until this week. By that I mean, if we throw the ball more, take an early lead and average 30+ a game, it will force (some) teams to abandon the run and be one dimensional, the Seahawks can then work in more situational blitzing and let their secondary be physical and take gambles to generate turnovers.

        NE will be a good test of all this because they’re going to run the ball down our throats, and even if the Seahawks take an early lead I don’t expect them to abandon the run like Atlanta did. NE is also very physical on offense, so if this D can hold its own and look as physical as it did against ATL, give up yards but continue to make big hits and hopefully force a turnover or two, we’ll be singing a different tune next week about the defensive potential.

        • cha says:

          I absolutely am putting too much emphasis on one game – but intentionally. We only have one game of data to analyze though, and until the data begins to normalize it’s entertaining to look for unexpected outcomes and extrapolate

          I get that. Sure, that’s entertaining. RW is on pace for 64 TD passes. That’s entertaining. And it’s fun when your team does well.

          But is that realistic to expect that? No, it’s not. Just like it’s not realistic, like I said, to expect the offense to put lots of pressure on the opposing offense to keep up week after week like they did against Atlanta. It’s just not going to happen.

          if this D can hold its own and look as physical as it did against ATL, give up yards but continue to make big hits and hopefully force a turnover or two, we’ll be singing a different tune next week about the defensive potential.

          No we won’t be. Because a good chunk of this forum traffics in reason and logic and not in taking small samples and drawing unsound (but entertaining) conclusions.

          • Jason says:

            If the Seahawks D has an outstanding performance on Sunday night you won’t look at its potential with fresh eyes and think, “hey, there might be more here than I thought”?

            If you compare weeks 1 and 2 to last year they have 7 new starters, I think (Reed was suspended), and with that much turnover there is a wide range of potential outcomes. Think of the D as having a true performance level of X and right now that level sits between 20-80, no matter the performance on Sunday the spread narrows, but if it’s a great performance the mean value of X increases. And look at that, small sample size optimism!

            No conclusions can be drawn from Atlanta, and no conclusions will be drawn against NE. But there is a statistical point where defensive performance stabilizes and it’s informed by the small sample sizes leading up to it.

            • cha says:

              No conclusions can be drawn from Atlanta, and no conclusions will be drawn against NE

              Ok, so we agree.

            • Danny P says:

              Sure we can. If they win, they’d of beaten possibly the best passing attack they will see this year, on the road at 10am, followed by defeating possibly the best rushing attack they will see. Speaking for myself, conclusions will definitely be drawn:)

              Also, it really is all for entertainment. So the Hawks having a surprisingly comfortable opening win, where the d lines perfomance didnt even make the highlights, so to speak, is a great outcome!

              D line performing poorly, as predicted here, yet the d performing as a unit better than usual against The Falcons, including the lob era, is very encouraging.

              Hawks starting slow each season as well as each game has practically been a given for years. No preseason, yet they looked generally like a contender, right out the gate.

              Very entertaining game. So much more so than a typical PC era opener 🙂

              • Rob Staton says:

                “they’d of beaten possibly the best passing attack they will see this year”

                Maybe in terms of a QB and two receivers with talent. Not in terms of a troubling offense. The Rams give them a kicking twice a year.

                There were many positives from the Atlanta game and I wrote about them in the instant reaction piece. I’d also suggest it’s quite possible that Atlanta are, despite Ryan, Julio and one or two others, a fairly average team on the brink of major changes.

                • Danny P says:

                  Thanks for the response!

                  All the kudos you get in these comments, really are well deserved. Can’t tell you how much my knowledge/interest in the draft and prospects has grown directly from lurking here over the last 4 years. The work you’ve put into identifying a potential Hawk is such a cherry-on-top for Hawks fans. Thanks, man. I know it’s a labor of love, so to speak 🙂

                  I dont think either of these offenses will be the best of anything they face this year, to be clear. But I do see how it’s not out of the question. Also a balanced attack, like what we will face in the NFCW is a lot scarier to me than the Tebow playbook they are about to get this week.

                  But i do believe PC sees this game as a dress rehearsal of sorts for facing Kyler Murray. Not that Cam is the same dude, but enough parallels, perhaps. Like a boxer bringing in specifically styled sparring partners to mimic their real opponent.

                  DT looks soft. But Wags, Jamal, Diggs and Blair are all thumpers of sorts and all can be found in the middle of the defense. I could see teams technically having good success running it up the middle, but they will feel it the next day. For whatever that’s worth.

    • Rob Staton says:

      “in the context of their grades the Seattle D had two outstanding performers last week (which meets the eye test), six starters who were +/- 6 pts of average. two below average starters (Shaq and Q) and one very poor (Dunbar).”

      You’re just manipulating the stats by adding your own +/- mark to the equation. The fact is players like Poona Ford (58.7), Benson Mayowa (56.3) and L.J. Collier (55.7) graded poorly. You can’t just insert a +/- to improve those marks. Otherwise let’s just say they were 20 points away from being Pro-Bowl level.

      “In no way am I suggesting you should be more optimistic. But I am suggesting you should be careful not to let bias confirm your expectations.”

      Do you understand how thoroughly contradictory this is?

      You say my game review was fair. Then you say I wrote it to confirm my own bias?

      Either the review was fair and therefore I’m just calling it how I see it, or my game review was wrong and deliberately negative to prove a point.

      It’s also so patronizing to accuse me of trying to confirm my own biases and a cloaked way to have a dig. I’ve written this blog for 12 years. The vast, vast majority of my writing during the Carroll era has been massively positive. And now that I think they’ve had a shite off-season, I’m ‘confirming my bias’ by not being 100% positive after a win? By looking at the pro’s and con’s?

      Get out of here.

      I don’t give a toss about ‘being right’. I don’t fly 5000 miles to watch this team (when allowed). I don’t write this blog as a second full-time job (without pay). I don’t live and breathe ‘Hawks so I can prove my credentials to a bunch of people I don’t know on the internet.

      I write what I write because it’s what I think.

      “You bring up Lano Hill and I think he’s an interesting case. I was surprised to see PFF gave him a 65.8, frankly. He played 29 snaps and in that time got juked out of his shoes by Ridley on a 22 yard pass in 2Q, and was matched up against Julio (on only 1 of 2 snaps where Quandre was not on the field) and got beat for 44 yards where he was out of position and never looked for the ball. Ryan underthrew it or else it was probably a TD.”

      Even Jamal Adams can’t cover Julio Jones 1v1 as a deep safety.

      Lano Hill had a good game, IMO. I said that before seeing the PFF grade, which confirmed what I thought I saw.

      Be more positive Jason.

      • Jason says:

        Rob! You’re really going for it. Ok, allow me to be more specific at your behest.

        With respect to my +/-6 commentary, yes it’s an arbitrary number but the overall point was this: PFF does not weight their grades to ensure that 65 is average play in any given week, and while you seem to be (?) acknowledging that the PFF scale cited in the post was not accurate, you’re not fully recognizing how this changes the evaluations. This statement is not accurate with the added insight into what PFF considers replacement level:

        Look at how the starting D-line graded:

        Jarran Reed – 60.6
        Poona Ford— 58.7
        Benson Mayowa — 56.3
        L.J. Collier — 55.7

        All but Reed graded above the lowest ‘replacement level’ grade — and he only just avoided it.

        The mathematical case is this: The Seahawks non snap count weighted PFF average D grade Sunday was 62.78, almost ‘season long average starter’ level. The non weighted standard deviation was 13, so everyone but Dunbar played within 1 standard deviation of an average starter. And in addition, while the 65 grade is used as a barometer for season long average starter level of play, PFF states you should not expect a player’s season long grade to be the average of their game grades, as 16 games of exactly league average play would actually be more valuable than 4 games of average play.

        Put all that together and I think the PFF grades actually spin Seattle’s defensive performance in a positive light.

        Ok, that point aside, let me address this:

        Do you understand how thoroughly contradictory this is? You say my game review was fair. Then you say I wrote it to confirm my own bias? Either the review was fair and therefore I’m just calling it how I see it, or my game review was wrong and deliberately negative to prove a point.

        Absolutely – it’s the former, your review was fair and you’re calling it how you see it. But so far in the comments myself and others have made historical arguments for upgrading the defensive performance (past games vs. ATL), a contextual argument (reasons why the PFF analysis and scale was not spot on) and your basic eye test assessment, all in favor of upgrading them. You are free to dismiss all of that, and there are valid arguments for doing so, but my suggestion of confirmation bias shouldn’t be met with dismissal. We’re all guilty of it.

        In closing let me say, I get the feeling you’re adding a negative tint to my comments when that’s not at all the intent. I’m not accusing you of being “overly” negative. I think there’s good reason to feel negatively about the offseason and what could have been. I’m not even accusing you of being overly negative about the week 1 defensive performance. You may prove to be right over the course of the season. I’m merely suggesting that often times in football, and especially on defense, the sum is greater than its parts, and while we should maintain a healthy skepticism about the Seattle D given their talent level on the D line, we also need to be open to letting in signals that indicate the D will perform at a much higher level (even league average would qualify) than expected.

        • Rob Staton says:

          “Rob! You’re really going for it”

          I’m really not. I’m just answering the points in the manner in which I think is deserved. I don’t take kindly to being accused of trying to ‘confirm my bias’ especially when you accept my review of the game was fair.

          “PFF does not weight their grades to ensure that 65 is average play in any given week, and while you seem to be (?) acknowledging that the PFF scale cited in the post was not accurate, you’re not fully recognizing how this changes the evaluations.”

          No, I used what was apparently an old description of their grading scale which I was informed had been updated slightly in terms of its language and the way it describes each section. For example, what was once now called ‘replacement level’ is now called ‘below average’. The way I judged the grades was still accurate because they say anything under 60 is below average. You imagined a +/- addition to try and elevate the poor D-line grades into something greater. So you are manipulating the grades to favor your argument.

          “Absolutely – it’s the former, your review was fair and you’re calling it how you see it. But so far in the comments myself and others have made historical arguments for upgrading the defensive performance (past games vs. ATL), a contextual argument (reasons why the PFF analysis and scale was not spot on) and your basic eye test assessment, all in favor of upgrading them. You are free to dismiss all of that, and there are valid arguments for doing so, but my suggestion of confirmation bias shouldn’t be met with dismissal. We’re all guilty of it.”

          You didn’t make a historical argument for upgrading the defensive performance. You said in the past, such as a game four years ago, the Seahawks struggled against the Falcons. So the fact they won on Sunday means I should consider years old games and elevate my review of the performance. That’s not a viable counter.

          “In closing let me say, I get the feeling you’re adding a negative tint to my comments when that’s not at all the intent. I’m not accusing you of being “overly” negative.”

          You literally accused me of attempting to confirm my biases. You jumped from debating my points to challenging my motivation and basically accused me of an agenda. I didn’t need to add a negative tint, it was already there.

          “I’m merely suggesting that often times in football, and especially on defense, the sum is greater than its parts, and while we should maintain a healthy skepticism about the Seattle D given their talent level on the D line, we also need to be open to letting in signals that indicate the D will perform at a much higher level (even league average would qualify) than expected.”

          And? When have I argued against this?

          I praised the aspects of the defense that deserved to be praised. The D-line performance and the efforts of players such as Shaquill Griffin did not warrant praise. I looked at the pro’s and the con’s, as I always do.

          Seeing as you’re so keen to advise me on my language, let me offer you a tip in return. Stop trying to police the discussion.

          • Jason says:

            We’re going in circles here Rob. I gather by the way you’re glossing over each point I make and straying into ad hominem arguments that we’re past the point of productive dialogue, so I won’t continue re-hashing the PFF miscalculation, or going more in depth about how past performance against a very similarly constructed ATL teams can shape our view of this Seattle defense (aka historical argument).

            You’re a good writer, keep it up.

            • Rob Staton says:

              “I gather by the way you’re glossing over each point”

              I haven’t glossed over anything. I’ve answered every single point. Which I didn’t have to, seeing as your points were contradictory, accusatory and of the standard of ‘you should be more positive because a few years ago the Seahawks had a hard time against Atlanta’.

              “I won’t continue re-hashing the PFF miscalculation, or going more in depth about how past performance against a very similarly constructed ATL teams can shape our view of this Seattle defense (aka historical argument).”

              That’s because you can’t. With respect, it was a crap argument.

              Your appeal to history is easily dismissed because what happened last year, let alone years ago, is irrelevant to the current state of the team. The Seahawks won 10 games in a row against the Niners from 2013 to 2018. You wouldn’t give San Francisco ‘extra praise’ for winning in week 17 last season because of that. You just judge the current team against the current opponents. Your argument on PFF (basically if you add six points — without any explanation why you would — the grades don’t look so bad) was just a pure manipulation to try and create a counter that was totally invalid. As I said, you might as well just add 12 or 20 points and call them the best D-line in the league.

              It wasn’t a good argument, Jason. At all.

              • Jason says:

                You seem overly sensitive about the notion that you have bias inherent in your writing and analysis. We all have bias, it’s human nature and nothing to be ashamed of or to try and subvert.

                You’ve been writing all off-season about how the team did not do enough to improve its DL, and your points seemed spot on. They didn’t do enough, in my opinion.

                Then, the team has an outstanding week 1 performance, and the D has a better than expected week 1 performance. And you write a piece arguing that the performance is being overrated, and using third party metrics to show that it’s overrated.

                I have no problem with any of that, mind you, you took a stance and you’re defending it. But that is rife with bias! You have broadcast an opinion publicly and you stand to gain if it’s proven true (readers, clicks, comment section showdowns). On the contrary if everything you write is proven wrong you won’t gain much.

                Then in the course of the analysis you miscited the metrics, and when it was pointed out to you, you downplayed the error and got super defensive. You wrote an article that relied heavily on a subject you didn’t fully understand and you’re trying to minimize it in the comment section. Cool.

                This summary: “you should be more positive because a few years ago the Seahawks had a hard time against Atlanta” is glossing over the argument at hand, as I pointed out earlier.

                I could cite 3 or 8 more examples from your responses if needed. I could also point out that I gave you the PFF standard deviation, because it supports that a 6 point spread tells us very little about the relative performance of those players, but you’re just going to refute it by again telling us how unbiased you are and posing more soapbox rhetorical questions.

                You are certainly free to dismiss the historical results vs Atlanta, but “easily” is a mischaracterization, as we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that the Atlanta offense Seattle faced last week is one of the best passing attacks in the NFL, fully healthy playing on home turf.

                I will give you an easy out and say perhaps we have a different connotation of the word ‘bias.’ It definitely was not a dig, because we all have bias inherent in our opinions, but by getting so defensive you’re just showing that you can’t win a debate on the strength of your argument and have to rely on mischaracterizing what the opposition is saying.

                • Rob Staton says:

                  “You seem overly sensitive about the notion that you have bias inherent in your writing and analysis. We all have bias, it’s human nature and nothing to be ashamed of or to try and subvert.”

                  You’re doing it again. First you accuse me of basing my argument around a bias in order to prove myself right (despite saying what I’d written was fair). Now you’re accusing me of being ‘overly sensitive’.

                  These passive-aggressive attempts to undermine and avoid arguing the points simply aren’t welcome here, Jason. I won’t tell you again.

                  “Then, the team has an outstanding week 1 performance, and the D has a better than expected week 1 performance. And you write a piece arguing that the performance is being overrated, and using third party metrics to show that it’s overrated.”

                  No they didn’t Jason. Some aspects of the defense played well, such as Jamal Adams and Bobby Wagner. Others, such as Lano Hill, played surprisingly well. Other aspects struggled badly. You’re acting like this was an assured, near flawless performance. It was far from it.

                  “And you write a piece arguing that the performance is being overrated”

                  I have written no such thing.

                  Here’s what I wrote about this week:

                  — An instant reaction piece, which discussed the pro’s and con’s of the Atlanta performance

                  — A piece discussing the report regarding Russell Wilson and his desire to ‘cook’

                  — A breakdown of PFF’s grades for week one

                  That’s it.

                  “using third party metrics to show that it’s overrated.”

                  No, I displayed the PFF grades without any reference whatsoever to anything being ‘overrated’.

                  “I have no problem with any of that, mind you, you took a stance and you’re defending it. But that is rife with bias!”

                  Only if you make up a straw man argument by claiming I’ve spent the week writing about an overrated performance which was actually miles better than I’ve suggested, which is bollocks.

                  “Then in the course of the analysis you miscited the metrics, and when it was pointed out to you, you downplayed the error and got super defensive.”

                  No I didn’t. This really is your last warning in terms of making stuff up or making sly little digs to avoid actually making any competent arguments. I’ve had my fill. As I said in my previous reply, I was informed that I’d used a grading scale, published by PFF, that had since been updated. So now instead of saying 60 or below as a grade is replacement level, it’s now referred to as ‘below average’. It is STILL the lowest grade PFF offers. Nothing was mis-cited.

                  You, on the other hand, tried to argue that by adding six points to each grade wouldn’t make things so bad. But you could add ANY number of points to a grade, it doesn’t mean anything. A grade is a grade.

                  “You wrote an article that relied heavily on a subject you didn’t fully understand”

                  More patronising nonsense. You really are full of it.

                  You’re lucky I’m a nice chap. A lot of other people would’ve written a two-word response to this reply.

                  “This summary: “you should be more positive because a few years ago the Seahawks had a hard time against Atlanta” is glossing over the argument at hand, as I pointed out earlier.”

                  Nope. That’s literally the argument.

                  “I could cite 3 or 8 more examples from your responses if needed”

                  You probably could. Based on the evidence so far, I suspect they’d be as crap as the previous ones.

                  “I will give you an easy out”

                  I’ll give you one, too. Stop now or I will stop this myself.

  66. cha says:

    Friday press conf w PC

    “Rain today, helped us all out. Good week, coming home this week and staying here. Take new team through that process. Focused process, need it in several area.”

    [joe fan] Dorsett? “Questionable.”
    [joe] Alton? “Gotta wait until game time.”

    [Gregg bell] Accomplishment no positive COVID? “Really big deal. All contributed to process fantastic. On road for first time – a ton of stuff to orchestrate. Major accomplishment. This weekend first chance at home, new transitions with where we’re at. Make it through 3 stages, be really proud. Let us know we know how to do this. Discipline and care. Surprised in general so few positive in the NFL.”

    [tim booth] Exact injury with Green? “Stinger.”
    [tim] Cam being used by NE as a runner. Similar to Carolina? “Very similar. Their own version of it of course. He’s extraordinary athlete, inside and outside. Not necessarily just a scrambler, but called runs.”

    [bob condotta] Collier see last week? Confirm enthusiasm in camp? “Few good rushes, got picked off on a run he didn’t see. Lot of room to grow. Quickness there, conditioning paid off. This is a really good first step. Looking forward to him to be really active.”

    [john boyle] Belichik team change up what allows him to do that? “Puts them in position to win games, moreso than anyone we’ve faced, focus on defense, marvelous spectrum of stuff they can coach that most teams don’t have.”

    [michael shawn] Rotating players sustainable or add a starter? “Only helps to have more guys available. Unless it starts to show differently, comepitive ops, guy shows he deserves to play more, he’ll play more.”
    [msd] rotation with any other spots? “Possibly, good across the board helps us overall.”

    [Curtis crab] Areas sizable leaps week 1 to week 2? “Not a lot of penalties week one. Obvious teams ready. Will that change in the coming weeks? Open field tackling a priority.”

    [ben Arthur] Parkinson/Penny/Taylor update? “Getting a lot of work. Really frustrating time for them. Wanna get out there. Penny doing good job. I would think he’s ahead of schedule – we predicted middle of season – better than that. Expect him to be available not too far off.”
    [ben] Taylor on track? “not sure. Working really hard. Cares so much. Running hard this week.”

    [art] Lamar Jackson similar style to Cam? “Lamar looking more to run. Cam is more looking to throw. Isn’t as likely to take off. Both have designed runs. A lot of Lamar’s are true scrambles.”

    [maz] Rate Cam’s downfield accuracy? “Cam was coming out, studied that, spectacularly accurate when came out. Guy can bomb ya. Big threat. First game didn’t do a lot, but that’s not how we’re thinking.”

    [joe] Taylor setback? Or just continuing longer than expected? “Thought we had what we needed to know at the time. Workout film we got before draft. We felt like he had a chance to be back sooner. It’s longer than we anticipated and we’ll have to wait it out and get him when we get him.”

    “I don’t know if this is my best performance for you guys. Really excited for first game. How will the fans respond when we make a big play. I’m a bit distracted by that. Activity of the 12s, Art!”

    • Rob Staton says:

      Well, we can write-off Darrell Taylor this year then.

      Starting to wonder if we’ll ever see him.

      This is an injury that kept him out of the Senior Bowl and combine. That was months ago. He was said to be a serious injury red flag as a consequence. Now he’s out indefinitely. And Carroll’s words suggest they didn’t exactly do as much homework on his health as they suggested immediately after the draft.

      That was a forced pick because they failed to properly address the D-line in free agency and it looks like it could be a costly one.

      Go and look at the players selected after Taylor. It will make you weep.

      • cha says:

        And the fact they traded up for him just compounds the problem.

      • Mark Dickinson says:

        I think they made a mistake but I honestly believe Alton Robinson is going make it on the field and surprise a lot of people as the year goes on. He came to Seattle to train with Cliff Avril before the draft. The reason Seattle drafted him was because Avril told them he was a guy to take. He train with avril to get his body ready for the NFL and did he show up weighing in at 277 of chiseled muscle. Cliff said this guys love to ask questions and those are the players you want. Before cliff knew it he was explaining and showing this guy how to hand fight when rushing the QB. I really believe this guy and Damien Lewis will be the winners for the Seahawks in this draft.

        • CaptainJack says:

          I totally would be thrilled if Robinson made any sort of impact but hitting on a fifth rounder doesn’t , at all, make up for totally neglecting to do research on a guy you TRADED UP FOR in round two, giving up a precious third round pick in the process.

        • Rob Staton says:

          People sure are pinning a lot on a few workouts with Cliff Avril.

          • Mark Dickinson says:

            It’s the, It Factor. A player that shows up in shape is a plus today. The fact that he is he not talking but asking questions. This guy has dedication to be better. We have him for four year. I’m excited to see what this guy will become.

      • Gohawks5151 says:

        You really just have to wait. I will say this until I die; injuries have altered the course of this franchise more than anything since 2015. We are in some bad luck these past years. Guys with clean billings like Penny and Collier getting hurt are just unfortunate. It happens. Seahawks legend Jadeveon Clowney had to have microfracture surgery after getting hurt as a rookie. There are also guys that show up to the combine with injuries every year that still get taken. It was a risk to come up and get him but Taylor is talented and not undeserving of it. They probably felt ok because stress fractures are not a traditionaly career threatening injury. Got to wait and see.

        • CaptainJack says:

          You can avoid injury prone players. You can also just use common sense.

          Look at Penny’s build vs Chubb. Who do you think will have more injuries in the pros just off build? Penny looks like a random guy you’d see walking down the street and Chubb looks like an NFL running back.

          In regards to Taylor, he struggled with injuries throughout college and his big issue he’s dealing with now kept him out of the combine and senior bowl. That should be a VERY easy red flag to spot. It hurts because we had options at that spot as well.

        • Rob Staton says:

          You’ve just glossed over that so much.

          Injured for the Senior Bowl.

          Injured for the combine.

          Major injury flags.

          No means of testing him pre draft due to Covid.

          Took a massive risk.

          Now admitting they didn’t have all the info they needed.

          That’s the reality.

          • Gohawks5151 says:

            It’s a risk I said. But to write him off now is so premature. Could be our Jaylon Smith. His injury was much more gruesome

            • Rob Staton says:

              Jaylon Smith was a top-five lock who dropped to round two and the Cowboys took advantage of the situation.

              Taylor was never once remotely considered a top-five lock who fell. In fact nobody, really, even considered him a R2 pick until the days before the draft when Peter Schrager mocked him to the Seahawks in R1 and said they liked him. I was projecting him in the later rounds at best — because of his injuries. I went on one podcast and pondered whether he’d get drafted because all the talk was about injury flags.

              There’s a stark difference.

              And I haven’t ‘written him off’ other than for this year. My exact words were: “That was a forced pick because they failed to properly address the D-line in free agency and it looks like it could be a costly one.” This is fair.

              • Gohawks5151 says:

                I’ll agree it’s fair for this year. I wasn’t arguing pedigree with Smith and Taylor. Both are redshirts for year one that both teams hope will have impact. Simple as that

                • Rob Staton says:

                  But Dallas drafted Smith knowing he would be a redshirt, having been able to test him thoroughly pre-draft, and when he fell to them in R2 they thought, ‘why not?’

                  That’s totally different to the Seahawks not knowing Taylor would be a redshirt, not being able to test him thoroughly pre-draft, admitting now that they ‘thought’ they had all the information they needed (when clearly they didn’t) and then TRADING UP for him, giving up a valuable third round pick to do so.

      • Scot04 says:

        Yes Rob it hurts to see the guys we could of had instead with 2 picks. Obviously they felt the value was worth the risk. Based on the press conference though, it’s a pick you can definitely 2nd guess.

    • Big Mike says:

      We’re looking at back to back years of LJ Collier and Taylor both of whom will apparently play very little (Collier) or possibly not at all (Taylor) in year one and as pointed out, one of whom we traded a draft asset to move up to select. It seems to me PCJS have a hole in their dline evals much like Belichick does in his WR evals. Sad

    • SeahawkeyezSubj80 says:

      First and foremost, huge thanks to Cha for typing out the press conference. I struggle to hear even with ear buds. Totally appreciate the cliff notes to compare to what I think im hearing in the press conference.

      I can say this with confidence that this weekend we are going to find all about our defensive line this weekend. Coach Bill is going to run it at us all day long. If Pats had their full compliment of players on their defensive line I would be really worried about our offensive line, Im confident they hold up. Russell going to have to pass against some good secondary and obviously need Carson and Hyde to run well.

      Still baffled by the lack of DT depth/signing?

  67. CaptainJack says:

    Man, the news on Taylor is so bleak. What a busted draft and offseason. I wonder if Green is done for the season as well.

    • Big Mike says:

      I wonder if it really matters. I mean I mean I had hopes that he’d take a step this season based on maturation and time in the program and flashes last year. Then week 1 before getting hurt, nothing at all. Bleak indeed as Captain Jack said.

      • CaptainJack says:

        It wouldn’t matter as much if we had brought in interior depth options this offseason. Instead we opted to let Woods and Jefferson go, drafted nobody who can play inside and signed PJ Johnson for a week.

  68. John seahawk says:

    Taylor’s injury as I understand it was a fractured tibia in which a rod was inserted, which depending on location can take a few months to a little more than a year to heal. (Assuming the rod does not break and the patient does not injure it again in rehab.) It would not be absurd to think a super athletic young man may recover on the lower end of that but on the other hand he is also very large and looking to put an amazing amount of strain on it on a regular basis. My real point is that, they had to know this was a real possibility when they drafted him and felt it was worth the risk. They may end up being wrong about that and it certainly looks grim for this year, as even if he makes it back, where will he be development wise in both skill and conditioning. But the medical eval at the time of his draft looks to my not an MD eyes like (might be ready to go game 1 but a not an insignificant chance he misses the whole year)

  69. RWIII says:

    Couple of takes on Jamar Adams. Mark Schlereth said that Seattle was lucky they didn’t have to give up 4 first picks for Adams. BTW: Bill Belichick said that Adams is a player that you have to know where he is at. At long times. You have to be careful not to throw it in his area. He could put a whopping on your receiver. I love Kam Chancellor but Adams is a much better player than Chancellor. Adams always seems to be where the ball is. He had 5 TFL. When you have a tackle for loss it is a good chance you are going to kill the drive. I was watching him do film study. The guy is AMAZING he can read plays with anyone.

  70. charlietheunicorn says:

    I cleared this comment, because I wanted to highlight how thoroughly unhinged people have become. ~rob

    Don’t worry, it is going to get a lot wackier here in the states in the next 45 days…. and probably another 45 days after that. Bonkers might be a better term to describe what is about to happen.

    At least the Seahawks give some of us a needed refuge from the real world for a few minutes.

    • Lewis says:

      That’s fair, but we are also at a watershed moment in time in terms of being able to effect real change. It would be great if mixing politics and sports weren’t needed, but for my part, I’ve decided that’s a small price to pay for working toward ending the suffering long endured by so many in this country.

  71. CaptainJack says:

    Fingers crossed they bring Anthony Rush up from the practice squad. He’s one guy on the dline I feel has some legitimate potential. And by that I mean he might be better than Bryan Mone.

  72. GreginAlaska says:

    I expect Rob to delete this post as soon as he sees it. I won’t blame him. This is my last Seahawks related post or comment on any site or blog. I have had enough of the politics in the NFL. I quit. I have been a Seahawks fan since 1976, but can no longer support the team. I started watching last Sundays game, but couldn’t separate the game from the politics. Good luck to you Rob. I have very much appreciated your whit, insightful analysis and comments. You are the best Seahawks site available, and I will miss reading your comments. I used to come here multiple times daily to read the blog and comments from multiple enlightened commentators. I have not been here since last Sunday. It was hard for the first couple of days, but now I am comfortable with my decision. To those that would respond to this post, go ahead, or don’t bother. I won’t be reading your comments. Done with the ‘hawks. Good luck to you all.
    Cheers,
    GreginAlaska

    • Rob Staton says:

      Sorry to hear that Greg.

      I know the temptation is for people to criticise those who don’t want a lot of politics in sport. I always think that’s unfair. We all have our own s**t to deal with in life. We all have our own stresses and strains. Many people work long hours for little money. Sport was always a release for the working man or woman. A bit of escapism.

      It’s never sat well with me, the mocking tone on social media whenever anyone just wants to focus on the sport aspect of things. The ‘stick to sports’ stuff that people often criticise misses the point in my opinion. I think a lot of people say ‘stick to sports’ because they don’t want every aspect of their lives to be politicised. When you follow sports journalists for their sports coverage, and they start lecturing the masses with their politics, I don’t know why anyone fails to understand why that will be a turn off to some. And yet those people who push back are often labelled racist or stupid. Personally, I would never dream of talking about politics on my twitter feed. Nobody follows me for that.

      Personally I don’t have any issue with sports stars using their voice to raise awareness for issues. I didn’t find Sunday obtrusive in the slightest. I thought it was well done. Got the point across but didn’t labour it. I am not American and I don’t have an intimate grasp of the issues in the United States but it seems obvious to me that there are some problems that need to be talked about openly and honestly and that a positive movement for change would be a huge benefit. That said, any message has to be about unity, togetherness, understanding and empathy. Not about dividing, separating, drawing lines between groups. Which, I’m afraid to say, seems to be common.

      I also think it’s important not to lecture people. I have to say I thought Pete Carroll’s press conference on social justice contained some language that didn’t sit right with me. I have no doubt that Pete’s intentions were 100% about initiating positive change. Yet I think the language being used, by many not just Carroll in that conference, won’t be as effective as hoped. I think there’s a lot of divisive talk when the message should be — let’s come together. Unite. Combat this together. Be nice to each other. Change for the better. Create a movement people want to be part of, not a movement that draws dividing lines.

      So I guess what I’m saying is — I sympathise. But I’d also encourage you not to give up on following the Seahawks. For me it’s still that perfect release. That thing that gets me through a difficult week. When I’m having a long day at work, often the thought of a game on Sunday raises my spirits. I’m excited and nervous at the start of every game. It’s life affirming. It gives purpose. I love when my little girl says, ‘Seahawks!’ just because she knows I’ll praise her for it. I love asking my seven-year-old who’s going to win on Sunday, even though he knows nothing about the game. I look forward to them both growing up and sharing my passion in the future, if they both take to the NFL in the way I have.

      Being a fan of a team is the definition of unity (apart from when they’re slagging you off for criticising the D-line).

      Give it another chance on Sunday. Don’t fret too much about the politics. I hear where you’re coming from. But trust me, you don’t have to abandon your team.

    • Trevor says:

      Hang in there Greg this too shall pass hopefully. I posted something very similar prior to last weeks game. I really miss the days when professional sports (NFL in particular) was an escape from life and time each Sunday afternoon when you could just relax and enjoy football.

      Anytime a form entertainment becomes a social and political platform it alienates a large portion of potential customers / viewers and I think soon the NFL will realize this. Sadly $ talks and once they see reclining viewership, attendance and revenue it will be interesting to see if the political views are so strong.

      • Henry Taylor says:

        I don’t want to talk about politics on this blog, it’s not what it’s for and I’m too easily drawn in.

        I do want to say though, “this too shall pass” is a bad take. Sports and politics have always been connected (look up the 1968 Olympic games, as one example).

        I think a better way to look at it is: how can we make the movement a force for good whilst still maintaining the entertainment product we love? Rather than: how long till its over?

        • Trevor says:

          That is fine if you agree with the politics and social issues being promoted. I am not talking about racial inequality.

          Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. If athletes feel so strongly about these issues then they should be using thier fame and more importantly time and money to champion these causes in ways that will actually result in change not when they are at work on Sunday afternoon. I think about a guy like Doug Baldwin for example who actually gets involved to try and work towards true change not just a PR stunt every Sunday afternoon.

        • Big Mike says:

          Look up the 1936 Olympics too Henry. Hitler tried in vain to make it about proving Germans in general and whites in particular were the “master race”. Fortunately, Jessee Owens ruined that for him.

  73. Peter says:

    Rob,

    I don’t know how you’re doing it with some of these goofs….

    I can’t believe I’m saying this but thankfully Some sort of wacky truncated CFB season is starting. Hopefully if you have time you’ll get a chance to evaluate players which I greatly miss reading.

    Though I do wonder with limited crowd interaction how certain positions become effected? I’ve seen some speculation that QB”s may have an easier time this year. But I wonder if Olinemen will appear more in control w/o deafening crowd noise thus causing some players to look like they are more technically proficient than they are? Maybe it doesn’t matter at all in the end. I guess we’ll be able to tell in a few weeks with more data for QB’s both pro and college to see if numbers are going up as a whole.

    And a word to posters with hot takes, whom some of are trying to “outsmart,” Rob and bring the tough zingers: take that to “seahawks.net” -or- if you have a delorean and can get it up to 88 mph travel back in time to fieldgulls 4 years ago or so when it was all doom. All gloom. And every poster thought they were some genius game theorist money ball practitioner and not simply what they were which is a dork (like myself right now) on line posting.

  74. Rob Staton says:

    The absolute best thing about moderating the comments these days are the people who think they need to tell me how to speak, how to run the blog, what opinions to have.

    Keep your views to yourself. I’m not interested. Don’t like the way we do things over here? There are alternatives.

  75. cha says:

    Rams give Ramsey $105m
    Rams give Kupp $48m
    Rams give Woods $65m

    Los Angeles Rams
    @RamsNFL
    Friendly reminder that we don’t have the answers to your salary cap questions. We just run the social media here. Weary face
    2:48 PM · Sep 18, 2020

  76. cha says:

    Well the team has talked about Blair really impressing in camp at nickel. We will see how confident they are with who they line up over Edelman tomorrow.

  77. Spencer Duncan says:

    How can I find the PFF numbers from individual games last year? Would like to see how the secondary rated in those games where QBs like Shaub dip and dunked us for 460 yards.

    Hoping Diggs, Griff, Ford and Reed can get those numbers up to around 65 for the rest of the season.

  78. charlietheunicorn says:

    “Russ is unlikely to cook at the same temperature against perhaps the best collection of cornerbacks in football.” ~ NFL.com

    Let’s say, RW does ‘cook’ Sunday to the tune of 350 yards and 3+ TDs/0 INTs vs the Patriots, would he be a clear front runner for the MVP (early I know)???

    • Big Mike says:

      Too early. Remember after the Tampa game last year (5 TDs) he was basically the front runner and then cooled off while Lamar went off. Let’s talk week 11 or so. JMO…….

    • Rob Staton says:

      Bit early. He was the front runner early last year and then Lamar ran away with it.

      Also, if NE play the same coverages and only rush three as they did in 2016 he will get plenty of yards.

    • AlaskaHawk says:

      There were a couple other names mentioned for MVP after the first week. Aaron Rogers, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes. That is some tough competition. If Russ can keep up the passing attack with a few QB runs and scrambles thrown in, he will be in contention.

      I don’t think he would be a frontrunner unless he can put a whole season together. So maybe later in the season, but not now.

      • Rob Staton says:

        The other thing is generally you need to be on a team that dominates a division and gets +12 wins.

        The jury is still very much out on whether Wilson’s supporting cast can help him get to that point.

      • AlaskaHawk says:

        The 49ers are weaker this year due to injuries. The Rams and Cardinals look a little better. This has been a tough division to play in. But also a division that goes to the superbowl a lot.

        As far as domination, I want to see the Seahawks score 40+ points a game. That would certainly help any MVP discussions and make up for the weak defense.

        The only sticking point is the rag tag offensive line. If there is anything that chases Wilson out of Seattle it will be the lack of effort to assemble a great offensive line. I guess we will see how they do against New England, it should be a good test for both sides of the team.

  79. cha says:

    Hayden Winks
    @HaydenWinks
    The #Steelers OL just got wrecked.
    + RT Zach Banner (IR)
    + RG Stefan Wisniewski (IR)
    + RG David DeCastro (out Week 2)

    New right side:
    RG: 4th-rd rookie from UL Lafayette
    RT: 3rd-rd 3yr from Western Michigan
    1:25 PM · Sep 18, 2020

    Anybody have a former Steeler OL they could trade for and snap right into their system???

    Vannett Trade 2.0?

  80. cha says:

    ESPN 1320 Sacramento
    @ESPN1320
    Dee Ford joins George Kittle and Richard Sherman as 49er Pro Bowlers missing Sundays game against the Jets.
    1:53 PM · Sep 19, 2020

    Trap game?

    Oh please Jets, for once in your life do something.

  81. cha says:

    Seahawks PR
    @seahawksPR
    The
    @Seahawks
    have added DT Anthony Rush to the active roster for tomorrow’s game. #GoHawks
    Anthony Rush Elevated From Practice Squad For Week 2 vs. Patriots
    The defensive tackle appeared in nine games with the Philadelphia Eagles in 2019.
    seahawks.com
    1:27 PM · Sep 19, 2020

  82. Scott says:

    I’m the last person to laud the defensive roster they’ve put together this season, especially when it comes to the Dline. However I have been convinced for a long time that PFF grades are a pile of dung and utterly worthless.

    • charlietheunicorn says:

      They are trying to measure the intangibles and tangibles… quantify something you can’t quantify. I believe Dave Wyman goes bananas when anyone mentions PFF. He always said you have to trust your eyes about how guys are playing…. football players making football plays… and a “geek” watching tape without knowing the play-call or responsibilities for each player within said play-call can’t fairly grade anything. He was especially critical of how interior OL and DL are rated.

      • Big Mike says:

        Yeah it’s not like baseball where literally everything is quantifiable. About the best you can use PFF for imo is a rough idea of performance, very rough at times.

        • Rob Staton says:

          I don’t think anyone has gone head over heels for the PFF grades.

          For me, it was merely confirmation if what I saw on Sunday. I’ve watched the game two more times since. The grades, IMO, match-up very well.

          • Bmseattle says:

            *If* the grading procedure is at least consistent, across the board, then you can get a relative score of players who play the same positions.

            Clearly, all sorts of nuances will be missed, but I think there is some information/value to be gleaned… especially if (as Rob stated) it confirms what your eyes told you while watching.

          • charlietheunicorn says:

            Isn’t Chris Collinsworth involved with PFF?

            I seem to recall he talked about how they have upgraded and improved the “system” since they first started using it / grading with it some years back. I think it might shine better when you take a look at a single game?

            The AWS stat stuff involving the ball in the air or trajectory of a kick or w/e is truly amazing.

    • CaptainJack says:

      I find PFF grades interesting but I take them with a grain of salt. My own personal eye test is more important to me and the dline and secondary did not pass the eye test. Wagner and Adams did. The grades generally lined up with that so I don’t have much of a gripe. But no, I don’t consider them gospel but sometimes they make a good deal of sense.

  83. charlietheunicorn says:

    People are getting ahead of themselves for SS Jamal Adams as DPOY……
    (Bucky Brooks who I respect greatly)

    however… “While Adams’ former defensive coordinator, the Jets’ Gregg Williams, said last month that the star safety might be “bored” in the Seattle’s scheme, Carroll has dusted off some of the concepts that he utilized at USC to transform Troy Polamalu into a defensive force almost 20 years ago.”

    Does anyone have some insights into this statement about old USC concepts employed with Polamalu? Troy was friggin fantastic in the NFL for many years with the Steelers, but I didn’t really follow CFB during his time at USC.

    • Big Mike says:

      I’m not an Xs and Os guy at all, but I do remember him being a monster back then. He seemed to be everywhere all the time, just like in Pitt.

    • Brik says:

      Someone asked about this before the season started and I looked at some tape from Polamalu’s days at USC with Carrol. Pretty much he was exactly what you’re seeing with Jamal Adams. He will line up pretty much anywhere inside the box, whether it’s up on the line, with the linebackers, or a little further back. Could be almost anywhere on the field pre-snap. Most the time you’ll see him going downhill attacking either the runner or the quarterback. I watched highlights so I didn’t see a whole lot in coverage but I expect if he’s back to play a sort of middle zone, and just follow the play and attack when he gets the chance.

  84. charlietheunicorn says:

    Can we pencil in this as the fair market value for a RB? or would Carson command 8M / year?

    “The Chicago Bears are retaining running back Tarik Cohen.

    Cohen has agreed to a three-year contract extension that is worth $17.25 million in new money at $5.75 million per year, according to NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport.

    With incentives, the deal could be worth up to $18.25 million at $6.093 million per year, sources tell Rapoport.”

    • Rob Staton says:

      I think the Seahawks need to let Carson reach the market.

      I don’t think anyone is going to pay him this kind of money.

      They will save a lot by letting him test the water IMO.

  85. Mike says:

    My only hope for game 1 was that some units showed some promise, and that we’d squeak out a win. It’s low expectations, and I’m happy the hawks surpassed it and then some. The grades value? Not really much to me. By week 4, i think ill start taking the grades more seriously.

    This is always the time of year where my expectations as an observer are higher than what i should expect a team to be. The last real football i watched was the two most elite teams in the league, that had a whole season under their belt to get dialed in, go at it for the superbowl.

    But its been a whole offseason. Personnel changes, new playbook changes, getting rooks up to speed, general cobwebs, covid and no preseason… this is still a sport, played by people, and there’s something to be said about needing time for the team to build continuity. Defense and o-line always start rough. Its not a surprise they weren’t championship quality at this time of year. It would be more of a surprise if they were.

    Our offense though? Looked way ahead of what we have seen from this team in years. Good, we need that.

    Im not saying that im optimistic about the d-line’s chances of suddenly being an unstoppable force to be reckoned with. But its within the realm of possible that with time they could improve to a modest group that pulls off enough plays to not ruin a season. Its just too soon to get the hopes up or down right now. Most years, by week 4 you really see what a team can be, so im waiting a bit longer to see if the defense can compliment the offense enough to be an effective team.

  86. Thomas Wells says:

    Gotta pray this isn’t a serious injury for Irvin or this rush goes from awful to…more awful

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