Kenny and I did a podcast to reflect on the Dallas win and the direction of the team after three weeks. Then, we got into quite the heated debate about whether the Vikings are better than the Seahawks (I believe they clearly are, Kenny disagreed, chaos ensued). Check out the piece below…
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So Earl to KC for a 2nd and 5th. Sounds about the best they could hope for given the circumstances. Kind of makes you wonder if they really were offered a 2nd in draft last year why they would not have taken it.
Glad he is going to AFC and got to play Dallas however.
Man… sad to see him go, but this worked out best for all parties. Had a strong feeling KC made the most sense. If/when berry comes back, watch out.. KC Super Bowl favorites if not already before the trade…. which means we basically got an early third
That’s a fake Ian Rapoport account.
Is this confirmed?
No
Fake account
I hate Twitter
Well . . . there’s one born every day!!! LOL đ
I can’t imagine that’s the best they could do, they would absolutely offer a first for Earl. The the Chiefs are a superbowl caliber team, but we can all tell that the defense is going to need help because they are scoring 40 points a game, but their opponents are scoring 30 a game. We saw the 15-1 packers lose their first playoff game. They aren’t going to roll the Jaguars defense, they have a real possibility of going 1-2 over the next 2 games, that will put them in panic mode. Rosters can always be improved, and KC is primes to make a move. They may not, the NFL is volatile, but they’re in a really good position regarding trades. KC has the cap space to make a deal with Earl, and most of their key pieces on offense are still on their rookie deals. The next two years they are primed to remain the best offense in the NFL, Berry and Thomas alone would make them a top 15 D or better.
I mean really what do the seahawks have to lose? All 3 endings have a consolation prize at the end, waiting it out then resigning him is still very likely, but if the Chiefs bens and offer that first then it’s no skin off of their back
Vikings clearly better than Seahawks this year. Shouldnât be a debate
Agreed (but anyone who listened to the 30 minute debate knew that already)
Agree 100%
Vikings: a good-excellent team that finally had a bad game.
Seahawks: an ok-bad team that finally had a good game.
Both can happen any given Sunday, but which is more likely to be sustained throughout the whole season? We all know the answer…
A month ago, any comparison between a serious SB contender like the Viking and the stripped Seahawks’ roster would be ludicrous. Three weeks into the season I still think the Vikings are a better team but it takes a thought or two.
A part of it has to do with the Vikings losing to the Bills and failing to win against GB with an injured Rodgers. Another part is the Seahawks being a bit of a surprise starting the way they did.
Everybody expected a major decline on the defense due to losing two all pros in the secondary and three pro bowlers on the DL. The only hope for this team was that the offense will be able to take a step forwards with the OL and run game to compensate for it.
After 3 games, in-spite of injuries to Maxi, Jonson, K.J. and Wags, this defense does not look that bad. If Flowers keeps improving and with K.J. back they could actually be good as the season progresses. (Lesson to self – Never underestimate what Pete can do with young defensive players)
The offense on the other hand looked much worse than expected. However, they did look much better against the Cowboys. The OL (missing 40% of the starters) looked solid. RW looked back in form. The running game is back and we still have get our best WR back.
All things considered, is it really insane to believe that this ball hawking defense could keep improving? or that with Baldwin back this could be an efficient offense?
The jury is still out, both on the mighty Vikings and the lowly Seahawks.
Just remember, Kam did not become a starter till his 2nd year and Sherman became a starter in the middle of his rookie season due to injuries. Sherman made a lot of errors in his first starts and even Earl was on the verge of benching during his rookie season. Flowers can be the next in line of great Carroll CBs by the 2nd half of the season. Reed could continue to get pressure inside. Green can become more effective and this defense could be a force to recon with. (or they could end the year 6-10)
The Seahawks are not a good team right now but they do show some parks here and there. if they make the bye week 3-3 with 6 home games left it could get…interesting….
I sometimes wonder what the Seahawks would have been if Pete Carroll could concentrate all his skills as the defensive coach. I’m not saying he has done a bad job in other areas. He got the Seahawks to two superbowls and numerous playoff appearances. But his skills are clearly better on the defensive side.
Not a bad question at all . . .
This is a great point. I have been calling for Pete to be replaced but that is only because I don’t think he will ever give Wilson a modern offense, but I’d prefer it if he stuck around and did his magic on one side the ball and left the other alone.
Been wondering if Pete would ever want a reduced role to DB couch instead of retiring. Thatâd be best case scenario for this team when the time comes
The Seahawks are going to beat the Vikings in December.
Hope so
Seattle native, but have lived on the Iron Range.
Home, cold, wet: Seahawks win a bad kickers duel, 20 – 13.
Go Hawks! Skol!
Where on the Iron Range? I lived there for 14 years in Hibbing. Moved to Eagan about 18 months ago
Small world. Lived just south of Hibbing for much of the 2000s.
Holy smokes you guys “heated” might be an an undersell đ
In all seriousness that was the most entertaining episode of 3000 since the great running back debate back around draft time. It was like ESPN undisputed but without Skip Bayless’ incredibly punchable face and personality. Loved it. Find more things to disagree on.
As far as the actual debate, I went in expecting to agree wholeheartedly with Rob, but Kenny made some really good points, notably about how the Vikings roster might have been a tad over-rated. Not ready to say the Seahawks are a better team, right now they clearly aren’t, but its perhaps closer than I had thought.
You may have gauged from the podcast (lol) but I disagree strongly. I think people sometimes have unrealistic expectations about what constitutes a great or deep roster. The fact is, Minnesota have three terrific perimeter rushers (Griffen, Hunter, Barr) and an extremely good interior rusher (Sheldon) plus the best nose tackle in the NFL. If that aint deep and loaded, even without Griffen, I don’t want people expect. Go through every position and there’s only the O-line that is a perceived weakness. That’s an extremely well built roster.
And I’ll re-state the point I made in the piece. That was a freak result against Buffalo. In the previous two weeks they dominated a full strength 49ers outfit and but for the second coming of Blair Walsh would’ve knocked off the Packers in Lambeau instead of tying. It feels a little bit like one result for Seattle (vs Dallas) and one result for Minnesota (vs Buffalo) has led to a big overreaction.
I desperately want Seattle to win every game. But between Minnesota and Seattle, only one team has a realistic shot at a post-season run this year. It’s not our team sadly. I wish it was. Maybe in 2019.
Agree, but it’s important to note that this is the NFL and margins are thin.
They are thin sometimes.
Not all the time.
Rob, I agree with the roster assessment. I think tying the Pack is weighted a little too heavy however. Rogers was a gimp on one leg, the Pack D is pretty meh, and they needed an egregious Clay Mathews roughing penalty to obtain that tie.
All together, despite the Vikes stellar roster, I find them surprisingly underwhelming this year, which surprises me. Still a better roster/team than Seattle this year.
That gimp on one leg looked like an absolute magician the previous week in a dramatic fourth quarter comeback against Chicago (with the same injury). And against Minnesota he completed 30/42 (71.4%) for 281 yards, a touchdown and zero turnovers.
Neither was the Mathews penalty any more decisive than the fact Minnesota’s field goal kicker missed three field goals.
And the Packers defense has been pretty meh for a few years. The Seahawks have barely lay a finger on Green Bay whenever they’ve played over there in the last few seasons.
I think Minnesota and Green Bay both showed flashes of quality in that game, the Vikings handled a healthy Niners group and then, IMO, they took Buffalo for granted and were complacent. We’ll see how they get on for the rest of the year. But I maintain they are better than Seattle in 2018 and that was the point of the discussion.
Like rob said, a good roster means you have depth and complimenting pieces. Our roster, to sum it briefly, has a patchwork WR group that is nearly all new. Offensive line has taken a step forward from last year, but injuries are already testing that depth. Cousins has played to his usually self more times than Wilson has this season. While I like our RB group, there isnât much experience there and the unit isnât yet a finished product.
Our defense has been the surprise of the season, though the pass rush has been underwhelming. Weâre so thin at just about every position group, we had to trade for safety Luani, bring in Kendricks, and we had to scramble to find another option at DT after Tom Johnson got picked up by… the Vikings.
Every Super Bowl bound team has had enough depth. Itâs not impossible, but on paper, the Seahawks are not competitive this year. Itâs shown through three weeks, this is a developmental year. Letâs just hope we have the right guys who get the experience they need to be the future of this team.
I don’t disagree with that, they do appear stacked on paper. They were my SB pick for NFC after all. You have to admit though, that they have underwhelmed so far. (Although I think I was rather unwilling to accept how good the Rams were going to be this year with that prediction.)
Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.
I don’t think they’ve underwhelmed. I think people are reacting too much to the Buffalo game. Again, they looked very good against San Fran and Green Bay.
If that was a âheated debateâ, then it was of the nature of a mature parent with wider awareness, perspective and wisdom, having a discussion with his adolescent son.
Sure the tone of âdebateâ is present. But more because one person who wonât stop talking and forces you (meaning Rob and the listener) to sit through the diatribe and exaggeration, which then the much more concise adult offers a reasoned and less effusive answer.
Makes for a sort of âentertainmentâ I suppose, but I much preferred the no nonsense and insisting podcast he posted a few weeks ago with his fellow British counterparts who in my opinion simply understand football while still being fans from a more unsentimental and critical perspective. And it is a discussion between adults who pick up one anotherâs cues and know when their turn has ended.
Ken talks at you, over you, ongoing without reference at times to you even being there. It was hard for me to sit through at times while I waited for him to finish, because what I really wanted was to hear Rob speak. Very odd debate overall.
Totally agree with you Seventies.
The way KA just goes on, all over the place, it’s incessent and really hard to keep with the thread of what he was originally talking about. Which is a shame because I am sure he makes some vaild points but they get lost amongst it all.
Rob – can we have an ‘edited’ version where we don’t have to listen to Kenny please?!!! đ
Agree. I miss Rob’s comment + commentary because I can’t take Kenny.
I agree, very odd debate. Ken argues with a simplistic view, he is without true knowledge players in the league. IMO hard core draftniks have superior knowledge of NFL players, due to scouting sooooo many college players…whereas hard core “Team specific fans” only have in depth knowledge of their team players on their team roster.
Rob was a true professional in this debate. I was super frustrated with how Ken debated. I can be swayed from a good argument, but Ken seemed like a delusional fan.
Anyways, I do like listening to Rob and Ken talk Seahawks.
Rob, agree with your take on Earl. It is time to fish or cut bait… There are a couple of teams now that really need safety help: Saints, KC, Dallas, Altanta, maybe LAChargers. I think you have to offer Earl up and get the best pic return you can right now. The best fit might be Atlanta.
It is pretty clear that whatever Earl’s bottom line is in terms of guarantees, length of term or salary, it exceeds what the Seahawks are willing to pay. Pete’s comments the other day seemed to suggest that “the other individuals involved” might include working out contracts for Frank Clark and others.
I really want to see what the Seahawks have got in TT.
KC and perhaps Dallas are the only teams that really make sense to me, and even then it might be a tough sell for them to make a trade.
Dallas’s main issues stem from their offense. I also think they are overconfident about their chances of getting Earl in FA next year so they balked at trading for him. I think Earl’s bow to their sideline said it all.
KC has the highest paid safety in the league and he’s not even playing. Do they want to commit money to Earl? If not, would they really be willing to trade a 2nd rounder for a rental? Perhaps – they do have two 2nd rounders that both figure to be at the bottom of the round. I could also see Andy Reid desperate to make a move that could finally put him over the top. Has there been a coach the past 25 years that has been more of a bridesmaid but never the bride?
One angle you might not have thought of Rob: the Vikings played an extra quarter in Lambeau the week prior, in an intense divisional battle that was surely emotionally exhausting.
Carroll brought this up on Monday when asked about the bizarre Bills/Vikings outcome. Recall that the Hawk’s lost to the Saints after their grueling 6-6 game against the Cards.
Great point. Both the Packers and Vikings were poor a week after that overtime. Clearly had an impact on both.
Imagine thinking the Seahawks are better than Minnesota. Couldn’t be me man.
New England lost to Detroit. The Cardinals are better than New England. /s
I love it when you guys get into it, haha. And by that I mean I love it when somebody stands firmly against Kennethâs bizarre ideas.
Miami DT Gerald Willis đ„đ„đ„
Willis vs LSU (2018):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU1oKa_ddl4
PC Wednesday presser cliff notes:
On Cards:
– Little tape available on QB, in-game adjustments will be key.
– Expect lots of nickel D with Budda Baker and aggressive pass rush.
On Earl:
– Does he expect ETIII to practice today? Earl always gets a break Wed. practice.
– Is PC confident ETIII will keep playing at a high level despite not practicing? Yes.
– Does he âexpectâ ETIII to practice tomorrow? Um, yesâŠ
Injuries:
– Pocic might play this week. Feeling better.
– Dion also might play. Core injury.
– KJ is taking it slow.
– Britt is practicing today.
– Kendricks is playing this week.
– Ed Dickson is a couple weeks out. Getting excited though.
– Prosise has core injury. Still kind of unknown. Slow progress.
– ADB will practice today. Has a chance to play this week. Need to find out day by day how he responds. Canât allow the competitor in him to push himself too far too fast.
Offense:
– Stick with OL from last week due to success? Certainly that means they wonât rush Britt or Pocic back unless 100%.
– Is 32 carries for Carson sustainable? PC doesnât think so. He could if needed, but hopefully wonât have to. It will depend on each game.
Defense:
– A 16+ yd play drastically improves your chance of scoring on a drive. So not giving up explosive plays is vital.
– Does PC ever notice âbusiness decisionsâ being taken and how would he address that if it were his player? At times he sees it but has zero tolerance for it cause guys are playing for their teammates.
– Opinion on roughing the passer calls. Thereâs a difference between wanting to throw a guy into the dirt and not. One can see it. He hopes the league adapts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0VYNkwYEGo
Good stuff man.
Make this a weekly thing.
“Offense:
â Stick with OL from last week due to success? Certainly that means they wonât rush Britt or Pocic back unless 100%.”
Is this true?!! Big kudos to the coaching staff if so. I still miss Unger’s savvy up front making protection calls, adjustments and such. He was to Russ what M-Rob was to Lynch, his ‘eyes’. Hunt must have made the right impression.
Interesting comment about Earl, pretty sure he’s just covering/trying to save face because prior to this year Earl NEVER took veteran days off. That on top of Nortons press conference about taking care of older players so they can rest or whatever.
To me its quite pathetic how theyre trying to cover. Earl isnt backing down. I have no idea what PCJS are doing right now. The longer this continues the more foolish theyre looking to me. How theyre handling this makes no sense, everyone can see right through it.
How has green looked so far?
Havenât listed to the pod yet so donât know if this has been addresssd with the Vikings. But Everson Griffin had a mental breakdown and had to be taken to a mental health facility for an evaluation.
The team sent a letter to Griffin and his agent that he is not allowed on Vikings premises until he gets the evaluation. I donât see Griffen coming back his year which hurts the Vikings pass rush immensely.
I like the intensity of this debate, but really? This shouldn’t really even be a question.
The Vikings are currently a much more complete team and are much more able to compete through all three phases of a game. They can go toe to toe with any team in the league right now. I love my Seahawks, but I can’t say the same for them this season. We are certainly not a bad team, but we are most certainly not looking like a contender.
Next season? Sure — if we make some really good draft picks for the D (linebacker, S, D line, EDGE) and some contributors on O then count us in..
This debate about who’s the better team (or better roster) raised a lot of very determined opinions with a plethora of supporting evidence. In the modern NFL when the toenail growth rate of every player is available in both pie chart and hourly curve graphics we tend to feel that we have all the information to support those hard convictions.
And yet, a big part of the NFL magic is that non of it is actually true. The “unexpected” is actually the only predictable rule when NFL teams are concerned.
It was just a year ago that the mighty Seahawks were one of the 2 SB contenders in the NFC (together with GB). We all know how that ended. On the other hand, was there anyone predicting how good the RAMS and EAGLES would turn out to be?
Another “eternal truth” that was mentioned in that debate is “the better QB wins”. As long as a team has a good franchise QB, you can never count them out. Nobody seems to pay any attention to the fact that the great Tom Brady was surrounded by Chase Keenum, nick Foles and Blake Brotles in the AFC/NFC championship games. In the last 5 years the SB champions were the 2nd year RW, Brady, half dead Peyton, Brady, Foles. Not exactly “the best QB wins”.
If we learned anything from the 2017 Seahawks team it should be that a great day 1 roster is no guaranty to make the playoffs.
The lesson for all of us should be to temper our hard convictions into a much softer evaluation and acknowledge how quickly things change in the NFL. Don’t call teams “rubbish” like many did two years ago when Brady and Rodgers had a bad start for the season. Do not call of a HC head after a few bad games and don’t crown a young QB or coach after a few good ones.
Yes, as far as we can see right now the Vikings roster does look far superior to the Seahawks roster. They could easily turn a moderate start into a fantastic season. They can just as easily slide into mediocrity or worse if things go wrong.
The Seahawks are truly not very inspiring at this point in time but they too can surprise everybody and play much better. This struggling offense is not worse (roster wise) than the 2nd half of 2015 roster. This stripped down defense had 7 interceptions in 3 games when we had just 12 all of last season.
It is the “Any given Sunday” NFL that keeps making fools of everybody. Enjoy it for what it is.
This isnât strictly accurate though Eran.
The Seahawks werenât bad last year because the roster underachieved. By the Arizona game Cliff and Kam had suffered career ending injuries, Sherman was gone, Earl missed time, the left tackle was on IR, Bennett played injured and the running game collapsed. That wasnât âany given sundayâ. There was a cause.
If Minnesota suffer the same injury fate they too will not achieve what we all thought they would. But that is not just one of those things.
You are right, it certainly took some special circumstances to derail last season and yet, it happened. It took similar circumstances to derail a great Arizona team in 2015 and GB in 2016-2017. Great rosters go bust every year. Should we ignore that or accept it as an every year event?
3 weeks ago we all expected the Seahawks offense to be the driving force this season. It actually looked like the OL has taken that needed step forwards and we had all the RB talent we could ask for. It went bust in the first 2 games. The OL (without Flucker) did not support the run game enough and RW was sacked 12 times. Without Baldwin and with Lockett being the only WR RW was comfortable with, RW looked indecisive and the offense looked “rubbish” indeed.
Then we faced Dallas. They are not a good team but what they did show in the first 2 games of the season was a surprisingly effective front 7. They harassed QBs and accumulated sacks at a frightening frequency. We went into that game after losing 2 of the OL starters after a Monday night game with little time to practice and adapt. It had all the makings of a disaster and yet the OL performed admirably. Doug is back in practice and should be back this week or the next. I honestly believe that our offense will show rapid improvement in the next games.
It is highly likely that by Sunday night we will be ahead of the Vikings in the Win column and pretty likely that we will keep that all the way till our bye week. By mid-season we will probably be tied with Vikings or half a game ahead or behind with more home games left in the 2nd half of the Season.
What would that do to the “The Vikings are clearly far superior” narrative which I actually fully agree to?
To answer your first question, absolutely it should be ignored in this case. The argument was never… âthe Vikings are superior even if they lose about 5-6 Pro Bowlers, some to career ending injuries, in a freak of a season similar to the one that derailed Seattle in 2017.â
The argument was as simple as this â- the Vikings are better. And they are in 2018, as we sit here today. They are deeper across the board with minimal holes.
If they get a cluster of back breaking injuries then itâs a different debate.
Just curious, but I have had high hopes that we would see more of Nazair Jones this season, but he seems non-existent. He wasn’t even active against Chi, I believe, and yet he seemed to show some interior pass rush potential last season. Sophomore slump, injury, anybody have a clue?
The podcast was one of the better ones, but I almost didn’t listen because of the length, two hours is along time to listen to KA. My only criticism is that there was so little draft info at the end.
The intention was to do more draft talk but it went on a bit long because of the argument. Apologies.
One key stat Kenny might consider.. what are the Seahawks 3rd down conversion on offense and defense vs the Vikings… itâs not even close.
Vikings are 10th in the league with 42%. Seattle is 25th at 34%.
Rob, I agree with you; Seattle’s roster is not as good as Minnys, even without Griffen. I think with my heart about half the time, but after watching Carrol and Schotty blow the first two games, and pull their heads out enough to beat a lousy Dallas team, I’m not about to dream of a Super Bowl run yet. We have to beat a good team or two first lol!
I also think Minnys one bad game, they look well coached and disciplined. Seattle has been the opposite. That’s not to say I don’t have hope for Seattle to improve–I do, now that Carrol has stopped micromanaging. But for now, Minny has a better roster, and are doing a better job coaching overall compared to Seattle. That could change…
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss the Seahawks Rob.
Vikings were without Dalvin Cook and only had Latavius Murray lol. That’s screams 1 dimensional especially playing from behind. Hard to do good when the defense knows you’re gonna pass every play. Dalvin is also more of a focal point of vikings offense than even Cousins is IMO. the defense and the running game alone will get them 10 wins. Kirk will keep them matchup proof against the best teams.
Seattle is…. well… lucky Dallas has 3 good players lol
I wish there was a âskip Kennyâ feature on these podcasts. His writing is quite funny. Iâll leave it at that.
I, uh…have a hard time..you know…uh, listening to Kenneth Arthur…because, uh, you know..uh…
//bangs head on desk
Question to all. What team besides the Pats actually gets consistent value for former stars that walk in free agency? This is a serious question as I can’t think of any off the top of my head besides the Pats. It is kind of business as usual to resign a star too long or get nothing as stars leave. Not saying that is OK to lose out on compensation but its not outside the norm.
Even comparing Defensive stars from good defenses. Warren Sapp, Hardy Nickerson, Adalius Thomas, Sam Adams, Julius Peppers, Josh Norman, Eric Weddle and many more were in that 2nd of 3rd contract limbo that Earl is in. I’m think it is smart to plan ahead but i don’t think the Seahawks are all that sympathetic not getting anything for all the stars they lost.
per Rapaport, Seahawks release CB Donate Johnson off of IR. Now healthy.
When I look at the Hawks D I see a unit with the potential to be elite again as early as next year.
If Tre Flowers continues to develop under Peteâs tuteledge then a CB trio of Griffin, Coleman and Flowers could be as good as any unit in the NFL.
At Safety the Hawks have appear to have uncovered another star in McDougald similar to how they found Bennet and Avril. If the Hawks extend Earl which I doubt then it is the best Safety duo in the league and if not I think McDougald and Thompson will be very solid.
At LB I really hope KJ comes back healthy and both he and Wags are extended. This would be another dominant position group with Mingo, Griffin and a rookie likely.
DL is the one position group they need to focus on taking to the next level. The dream scenario would be to draft Celin Ferrell or Burns from FSU. Extend Clark and focus on signing free agent Grady Jarret as priority #1.
If they could pull this of that would be SB caliber Defense IMO.
Hahaha. This was the absolute best. It took me a couple days to listen but i enjoyed this.