Podcast: Trying to tell it like it is on the O-line

September 14th, 2017 | Written by Rob Staton

On this weeks podcast we discuss why O-line issues in college (evidenced yet again in the Auburn @ Clemson game) continue to impact the NFL. Towards the end we get into a serious look at Seattle’s O-line struggles and try to tell it how it is. Have a listen and let me know if you agree or disagree in the comments section.

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331 Responses to “Podcast: Trying to tell it like it is on the O-line”

  1. Preston says:

    Rob,

    Would love to hear what you think of WSU’s OL, Mata’afa, Williams and Falk. Really interested in “The Continent” and if he can really make a case for himself having never played SEC lineman. Williams seems to poses explosion through the hole and elusiveness needed in the NFL.

  2. Joshua Smith says:

    Great podcast as always. Offensive line play across the NFL is bad in general and trending towards getting worse and worse. However that does not absolve the Seahawks O-line. There are different degrees of bad O-line play.

    • Aaron says:

      +1
      Our o line is the worst of the worst. Not just poor, but often completely dysfunctional.

      • Matt B. says:

        Disagree here, I think our O-Line was the worst last year but the more analysis I’m seeing of people looking at the all-22 of the GB game shows that while the O-Line was far from perfect, they played better than the squad we started last year. The O-Line accounted for some negative plays but also to blame was poor play calling, alot of communication/execution errors between receivers and Wilson, some bad plays by Wilson, Lacey not hitting holes, etc… I think there’s a lot more upside to this group and think there’s a good chance as the group begins to gel that we will see an average O-Line by the end of the year (barring injuries).

        • Aaron says:

          It appears the arguments about this offense fall into two major camps. The first camp believes, as I do, that the dysfunction and lack of consistency on offense is because the o line is coached poorly and therefore plays poorly. The second camp believes the dysfunction and lack of consistency on offense is because the play calling is done in such a way that it doesn’t allow Russ and the backs and receivers to succeed.

          I don’t blame Bevell. He has a game plan every week that he believes will win the game. That playbook largely goes out the window when the offensive line can’t pass or run block with any level of consistency. That lies on Cable to make sure they can execute plays properly through his coaching. This is the third year where the line has begun the year being horrible up front. However, this year we aren’t playing the dominant Rams d line at St. Louis like in 2015, or the dominant Dolphins d line at home like in 2016. This was the Green Bay Packers d line, and average unit with two stars in an aging Clay Matthews and a very good Mike Daniels.

          Unlike 2015, we aren’t starting a TE convert at RT or a defensive lineman at C. Unlike 2016, we aren’t starting a first time C. This was a LT who played a LT in college, a LG who has played offensive line since at least college, a Pro Bowl alternate C, a RG back at his college position, and a RT back at his college position. There’s no excuse for this level of play and while Pete correctly says the buck stops with him, he is the head coach after all, but he doesn’t coach the o line.

          • Tien says:

            Good logical points, Aaron! I really don’t know if there is one primary cause for the OL stinking year after year and I”m just hoping that they work behind the scene to improve it to league average before we hit the playoffs.

            • FuzzyLOgic says:

              We need some fresh blood at the Offensive Coordinator position. Someone who knows we have a bad O-line and can think outside of the box……oh wait, I’m dreaming again.

          • Robert says:

            We have a few of these games every season where the offense is completely overwhelmed and unable to establish any running game or passing game. They all look the same with the opposing D cramming their LBs close to the LOS creating 7-8 man box on every play. If it’s a run, they have ample personnel near the LOS to clog running lanes. This leads to more obvious passing downs, which creates more aggressive and effective pass rush. The only solution I see is to find a way to attack behind the LBs to make them pay for playing so aggressively near the LOS.
            So when this shit goes down, they need to toss the gameplan and play Russ ball…like fast break basketball. Speed up the tempo. Moving Russ around with play action rollouts will force the LBs to hesitate to confirm the handoff. But when Russ fakes the handoff and rolls out, they will have to pursue to contain him. WRs and chip and release TEs can attack the field behind the LBs. This counter strategy is an effective counter to 7-8 man boxes because it makes the D pay for over-aggressive LBs. It forces the D to adjust their strategy to defend more grass, which in turn opens up more space and time for our offense to execute increasingly diverse plays that move the chains. Anyway, this would take some pressure off our young Oline and weaponize Russ’ special abilities instead of allowing them to be stifled along with all the talents of the rest of our skill players.

  3. Joshua Smith says:

    Offensive linemen have the deck stacked against them from a scheme standpoint. Nobody subs out their O-linemen. They are expected to play every snap of every game while the defensive linemen get to rotate out, rest, and then come back in fresh. Offensive linemen have to play against run stopping specialists on 1st and 2nd down, and then against pass rushing specialists on 3rd and other obvious passing downs. Offensive linemen have to do it all against rested guys who don’t have to do it all. Typically they have to gain an uncomfortable amount of weight for the job which severely reduces their athleticism. We wonder why they struggle when they have to play against guys who are playing at a more natural weight.

    • Tien says:

      All valid points Joshua but that’s true for all O lines in the league. So how/why are some lines decent/great while others like ours look like garbage for the most part?

      • Joshua Smith says:

        Some O-linemen are just that good to where they can overcome or at least mitigate the disadvantages that they face. Rotating O-linemen in and out or at least not expecting them to gain an unnatural amount of weight only to have them pass block 2/3 s of the time would help all of them.

  4. Trevor says:

    Enjoyed the podcast Rob.

    Agree with there being a huge problem with OL vs DL talent disparity completely and that all NFL teams face a difficult time putting a quality OL on the field.

    I also agree that we have not done a good job in game planning around this weekend. I look at the Patriots and how they scheme not to get Brady hit and it makes we wonder what we can’t do something similar as we have equal talent in the skill positions IMO.

    What I don’t agree with that no other team in the NFL has had an OL in the bottom 1/3 in the league 5 years straight on their way to #6 and this shows a complete incompetence in the ability to fix the OL. I heard all the excuses but that is what they are it is a case of poor talent evaluation, player development and cap space usage. JS and PC deserve a lot of blame as well but Cable is responsible for this OL and it has been made very clear.

    We did not re-sign any of the players you mentioned as leaving via free agency (Okung, Carpenter, Sweezy. Breno) because they just simply were not deemed good enough and never developed into elite players here which is what PC / JS seem to want when they sign a guy to a second / third deal (Lane and Kearse are the exception).

    We have inexperienced young guys all over the line because Cable has chosen to move guys to different positions (Glow, Ifedi, Joeckel) so Kenny’s argument is actually further proof that they have mismanaged the OL.

    I am going to cross my fingers and hope Bevel game plans around the OL and that they gel as a unit against the 49ers and some other weak DL groups so they can become a functioning unit but I am not expecting it. Nothing in the history of a Cable OL has shown that will be the case.

    Ever year we have this same discussion does that not say something. We don’t have this discussion about any other position group and barring the quarterback position I doubt any team in the league has had a bottom 1/3 position group 5-6 years straight. The only other group I can think might is the Saints secondary or Giants RB groups.

  5. Aaron says:

    I understand that o line play is diminishing in the NFL. I understand that multiple teams have poor o line play. I get all that. What I don’t understand is how we’ve let this line become so much worse than even the other poor ones. Last year this line never showed that 2015 second half leap. They went from terrible to poor by year’s end. At home they were poor but usually functional enough to score multiple TDs. On the road they often wilted into complete and utter dysfunction. We had multiple road clunkers last season and to see one again infuriates me. This team needs the no. 1 or 2 seed, they need a first round bye. They cannot make it to the Super Bowl without those advantages. However, because this o line wilts so much on the road I have serious doubts about them getting a no. 1 or 2 seed. They should easily win the NFC West. But this squad outside the o line is built to win a Super Bowl right now. It’s a travesty to waste such an all time great defense because we are so blasted incompetent up front. This great defense will run out of gas come December should this o line keep this offense from any consistency. Then media and fans will complain about how the run defense and pass rush underperform late this season. Of course they’ll underperform because they’ve been on the field far too long because of five guys up front on the offensive line.

    Tom Cable has always emphasized run blocking over pass blocking. When we had Lynch and 2015 Thomas Rawls then that ended up being pretty successful for us. But they can’t run block anymore. Tom Cable’s calling card has disappeared. That was the only thing keeping me from calling for his resignation. Now with it gone it’s time for him to step down. Pete’s greatest attribute, giving people many chances, is the same thing that’s kept Cable here beyond his time. Remove and replace Tom Cable either right now or before next season. We are wasting this defense and QB on shoddy o line coaching and playing.

  6. Jordan says:

    Its interesting for me to look at scheme fit with these O-liners. Makes me wonder if we keep drafting power run O-linemen for the more finesse job of the ZBS. Detroit playoff game and New England game come to mind. Also, if were “built” to run the football and have that nasty edge, why are we trying to beat teams with our passing game?
    are we drafting the right talent for the right scheme?
    if not, should we change our running scheme to adapt to the players we have?

  7. Ishmael says:

    I just want to repost this from, I think, RealRhino in the last post. It’s a really good bit of work, and writing.

    “You know, I’m sure those have some basis in reality, but I just rewatched the 1st quarter, and honestly, IMO it wasn’t the O-Line’s fault. It makes me feel a little bit better. I don’t know if part of it is fixable (the Tom Cable is an idiot part), but it wasn’t nearly as trash as people say, and didn’t really cause our slow start.

    Here’s what I saw:

    We DID do things to help us out, knowing the OL would have trouble. Day after the game I read all about how we beat our heads against the wall, that Bevell was terrible for not getting us into some stuff that took into account our likely OL problems. But he did.

    You read, oh, first play Russ runs for his life. Second play stuffed. Third play Russ again swarmed. But that first drive got nowhere because of two guys: Russ and his BFF Jimmy Graham. (With a little Carson). That first play, no need for Russ to run for his life, because Bevell had designed a neat little play with the bunch formation to the right, close to the line. ADB, Preach, Tre Madden. JG on the left does a little pick for Carson’s release. Russ looks to his right, where Tre Madden is clearly going to be free in the flat for probably a 6-8 yard gain if he doesn’t break a tackle b/c the LB chasing got caught up inside. Inexplicably, Russ doesn’t throw and looks to his left instead. Where he has Carson free b/c the LB got caught up in JG’s pick. Now, Carson had a bad angle if it was just a checkdown release, but he carries upfield on a wheel route. It would have been a tighter fit, but Russ could have gotten him the ball. Instead, he holds it to wait for Carson to get farther downfield, and….

    Tre Madden was open. Once again Russ decided not to go with the guy the play designed to get open.

    Second play, Ifedi just slipped. But ADB could have gotten 3-4 yards at least on that little WR screen if JG could/would block. AT all. POC. JG had the outside guy, Ifedi would have been responsible for the defender that ended up taking away ADB’s cutback option. But he wouldn’t have needed or wanted to cut back if JG did his job.

    Third play, JG is supposed to chip the DE to help Odhiambo, then release. Well, in true JG form, he doesn’t do one of those. NO EFFORT at all to do his job, Russ goes down.

    Second series, the Eddie Lacy everybody is complaining about looked good, got us to 3rd & 2, OL blocking okay. on 3rd, Graham, actually trying because he knows the play is designed for him, gets open for a quick slant. But the ball is knocked down at the LOS. It happens, but the OL did it’s job okay that series.

    Third series, Prosise comes in. Running play. Gets blown up in the backfield. Thing is, I don’t think it’s anybody’s fault on the OL (maybe Britt). Yeah, Mike Daniels got in the backfield to blow it up, but he’s only there because Tom Cable is an idiot. I see him frequently putting guys in a position to fail. In this case, on a play designed to go to the RIGHT, Daniels shifts from directly over Joeckel to in the A gap, like a tilted nose. He’s closer to Britt. And we don’t change anything. So Joeckel has to execute a reach block on a guy lined up well outside his right shoulder who is also rushing AWAY from Joeckel. Britt doesn’t combo block at all, goes to the 2nd level immediately, Joeckel is left with an impossible block to seal that lane. Even so, Prosise could/should have cut back to where the play was blocked well, to Joeckel’s left, and he just didn’t do it.

    3rd and 12, Russ has all day, just throws 6 yards short of the sticks for some reason.

    Summary: The OL wasn’t very good, but the guys ON the OL itself performed well enough so that if other guys (Russ, Graham, Carson and Prosise) had been on point we’d have kept a few drives going in that 1st quarter. Oh, and the guys themselves would be better if Cable did a better job coaching them, either not asking the impossible or doing a better job with combo blocks, etc. Odhiambo obviously struggled, but it shouldn’t have been the death knell it turned out to be.”

    It’s a post that tallies with the improved play with saw in pre-season. The guys up front aren’t great, but if the skill players are going well they’ll help lift the line up. There’s a reason that guys like Brees and Brady have such low sack rates every year, they get the ball out like lightning, they know the protections inside out, and they know what they’re looking for.

    Big improvement needed, from the O-line in particular, but I’m hopeful we’ll see it. Guys need to be put in better positions. Wilson needs to be better. The playcalling needs a wake up. Carson and/or Rawls need to be given a real lash at the starting RB gig. Be nice if the referees didn’t invent mystery penalties this week either.

  8. RealRhino2 says:

    Can I ask a real question first?

    Why do you think offensive line play around the league is bad? Because some people are moaning about it? I hear this as an excuse for Tom Cable all the time, but I’m wondering what data you are using suggests that OL play around the league is bad, or is a problem.

    To be Bill Jamesian about it, what would it look like for a team (or teams) to have bad OL play? An inability to run the ball? An inability to pass the ball? Giving up a lot of sacks? Lower scoring?

    Because literally NONE of those things has happened in the past 10 years, or 20 years. Put another way, teams in 2016 rushed for MORE yards per attempt in 2016 than they did in 2006, and in 1996. Teams in 2016 passed for MORE yards per attempt than they did in 2006, and in 1996. Teams in 2016 gave up FEWER sacks per game than they did in 2006, and in 1996. Teams in 2016 scored MORE points per game than they did in 2006, and in 1996.

    So I’m led to wonder where this idea that OL play is bad comes from. Are we just taking the word of those people who have been bad at putting together a good OL?

    • Rob Staton says:

      The idea comes from watching other teams and noticing that the Seahawks aren’t alone.

      Case in point, watch the game tonight.

      • RealRhino2 says:

        That doesn’t seem right, to ignore large amounts of objective data in favor of a very small data set consisting of subjective judgments made through the filter of perception bias.

        This feels like asking a mugging victim if he thinks violent crime is on the rise across the U.S.

        • Kenny Sloth says:

          Unless stats for OL rarely are very indicative of talent.

          Dont be a stat scout.

          • RealRhino2 says:

            What does this even mean? It makes no sense. Does the OL have a job? Does it have a purpose in football? I’d like to hear you explain what it is, if it’s not to help running backs gain yardage, or to help QBs complete passes, or to protect QBs from getting sacked, or even to help the offense score points. ‘Cause those are the only jobs I can think of for them.

            • Kenny Sloth says:

              There’s no stat for the eye test amd most fans don’t watch enough NFL outside of their preferred team.

              That’s where yu get all these hot takes

        • Rob Staton says:

          The data you’re quoting carries no context Rhino. You’re quoting statistics and then making a determination without any proof that they are connected. Touchdowns are up. Yep. That tells us absolutely nothing about O-line performance.

          I prefer to actually watch games with my eyes and make a judgement, while also taking on opinions of people I respect to make a determination on O-lines around the league. Not simply look at unrelated numbers and then try to shape a position around what they say to try and make half a point.

          You’re basically box-score scouting.

          • RealRhino2 says:

            Box score scouting is when you judge an individual player based on his stats w/o reference to context that might have an influence. That charge doesn’t apply here, because offensive performance is THE CONTEXT in which we are debating OL performance.

            I’m sorry the data don’t fit your hypothesis, but there we are.

            The claims are essentially as follows:
            1. Our offense can’t perform because our offensive line is so bad.
            2. The team is not to be blamed for our offensive line being bad, because offensive lines are bad all over the league.

            But if EVERY facet of offensive performance is UP around the league, both of those things can’t be true. One of them has to be wrong. Either offensive lines around the league aren’t bad (because offenses ARE performing), or offensive performance really isn’t very dependent on offensive line play, so our offense COULD perform despite our bad offensive line play.

            In which case your defense of our bad OL play doesn’t make sense (because it wouldn’t matter if the OL play was bad or not, since offense clearly doesn’t depend on it, OR, if it does depend on it, then other teams have good OL and we are the outliers).

            • Kenny Sloth says:

              Sorry what data?

            • Rob Staton says:

              On the contrary Rhino, you are trying to force stats to fit your argument. Nothing you are saying has anything to do with offensive lines. When you use stats as a non-contextual basis for your argument, to me that is box score scouting. I’m very satisfied with my position. I’ve watched many different offensive lines in the NFL and college. That is all I need to make my point.

              • icb12 says:

                So offensive stats have nothing to do with offensive lines?

                I will agree that individually O lineman lack relevant statistics. They are largely graded on the +- system. Complete your assignment = +, fail= -. 100 plays, complete 90 of your assignments you get a 90%.
                I would also agree that these stats don’t tell the whole story (No statistic does)
                Nor do advanced stats like Adjusted Line Yards/Adjusted Sack Rate/Adjusted run/pass ratio tell the whole story of o line performance.

                But what rhino is suggesting makes sense when you are trying to apply it to an entire league, made of of 32 different lines that have at least 160 different individuals.
                Overall offensive statistics HAVE to have be at least in a minor way relevant to overall OLine performances.

                It seems a little careless to shrug off what Rhino is suggesting because your eye-test tells you otherwise.
                The suggestion that Overall Offensive Statistics have nothing to do with Oline performances is crazy. If you can’t attribute ANY offensive success to the oline then Seattle wouldn’t be in this predicament. So OF COURSE the statistics are relevant– it merely becomes a question of how much.

                Unfortunately for rhino- The answer to that is not an easy one to answer

                • Rob Staton says:

                  Sorry, but I keep going back to the same point. There is zero content by looking at numbers. Otherwise Seattle winning and being prolific in New England last year (and several other games like Carolina) would mean SEA’s O-line was more than adequate.

              • seanmatt says:

                I actually think that Rhino has a good point. If offensive line play is supposedly down around the league, why are other teams putting up such strong offensive numbers? If other teams can still score, rush, and pass effectively (and you would determine this by looking at stats) then either our offensive line is MUCH MUCH WORSE than the other olines or our skill positions (including QB) are bad. Fundamentally, your eyeballs tell you that other teams have bad o-lines but, if that is true, why can those teams rush the ball and score touchdowns while we can’t?

                • Rob Staton says:

                  Context is required. The Seahawks fielded a terrible O-line last year. Did it stop them putting up big numbers in a huge win on the road in New England? Or at home vs Carolina? Or vs the Bills, Eagles, 49ers etc?

                  This is why you can’t just look at numbers and make a judgement on the offensive lines. If people don’t believe this is a league wide problem, just watch other teams. Their lines are awful too. Sometimes their schemes do work around it work (as they do in Seattle). Sometimes they don’t (see: Zero offensive TD’s for Cincy in two home games).

                  • AZseahawk says:

                    Exactly, last year the o-line was bad and yet the offense as whole posted similar numbers when compared to the 05 hawks whos o-line had big Walt and hutch on the left side.

            • AlaskaHawk says:

              Real Rhino – I think your on to something with the offensive statistics – which should be meaningful. If teams are failing the eye test but posting better numbers, maybe it is due to rule changes that favor the offense.

        • Sean says:

          Besides baseball every other major sport relies on the eye test. Statistics is not advanced enough to make accurate judgements in the NBA, soccer, NHL, and NFL. NBA has some good tools but when scouting college prospects they almost always rely on the eye test. I would argue nfl is the least statistically modelable. There simply is not any sort of statistic for offensive linemen that supersedes “the eye test”. All we can do is trust the management and hope they scout the right talent.

          • Kenny Sloth says:

            +1

            • JimQ says:

              IMO- The OL stats being graded as + or – is very inadequate for determining overall OL member performance. First, it’s in the opinion of the reviewer who may or may not be fully qualified to make such determinations. Second, the reviewer doesn’t know what play was called and in many cases may assume the play objectives are different than actual reality. Third, the + or – grading is way too broad of a measure, what if the OL member does half or three quarters of his job but still fails? Is that a – or a +? Way too may variables to be anything other than a reference point with little real validity.

    • Trevor says:

      I tend to agree with you Rhino. I think there may be an OL issue in the future if the top athletes keep going to the defensive side of the ball but I have not seen an league wide issue so far either as evident by the offensive explosion in recent years (also every penalty rule has been put in place to help the offense except the elimination of the chop block)

      Every year there are 5-8 OLs that really struggle and those fan bases moan and complain. It just so happens that we have ben one of those fan bases every year even the year we won the SB. That is why I think most people think there is a league wide issue.

      I agree every year there are teams with OL issues but not the same teams for 5-6 years in a row.

    • CHawk Talker Eric says:

      Increases in offensive stats/scoring over the last 10 years or so have more to do with the League’s intense efforts to boost scoring and offensive play. Virtually every rule change that’s been made in the last decade was done to help offenses score more points.

  9. James says:

    Imagine this scenario… Tom Cable decides that he and his guys need a night out, for team cohesion. They all hop on a Seahawks van, and on the way to the restaurant, they are involved in an accident. Thankfully, no one is seriously injured, but it was a major smash-up and everyone is so bruised and battered that no one can play for a couple of weeks. So another coach is elevated, and John plucks eight FA guys off the street, they practice together for a day, and then head to Green Bay. That is how our OL played on Sunday, as if that was where they came from.

    In short, the Seahawks did not put a unit on the field that could compete in the National Football League. In five decades of watching football, I have never seen such an inept unit. On every single play, one, two or three linemen broke down and opened the floodgates. It was irrelevant if three did their job because always two did not, all that mattered is that Russell had DLs in his face as soon as he planted his back foot. What I can say is, there are some people in the VMAC who should be very thankful that Paul Allen does not make decisions based on measurable results, or Cable and Bevell would have been gone three years ago. Pete is quite literally too loyal to a fault. The notion that there are no coaches on the face of the earth who would have brought a better OL, and a better offensive scheme, to Green Bay is absurd.

  10. Sea Mode says:

    OT, but cool article on NFL.com about the Falcons training with ex-SEALS. DQ is still one of my favorite coaches.

    http://www.nfl.com/labs/sidelines/atlanta-falcons/atlanta-falcons.html

  11. Kenny Sloth says:

    They call me the ghetto Scot McCloughan

    • Volume12 says:

      So your drinking out of a brown paper bag? 😉

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        Nah I rock the Steve Sarkisian and drink vodka out the clear water bottle

        Man… How do I get McCloughan’s career arc???

        The redemption of Scot McCloughan is one of my favorite nfl storylines EVER.

        Straight outta HBO hah

    • Volume12 says:

      BTW. I meant to post this on the last thread because I know ur a Ducks fan.

      HB Royce Freeman looks like a completely different runner this year so far. I know he was banged up the last couple of years, but what’s important for me is how they bounce back. Not only has he improved, but you can tell he put the work in to get back to who/where he was.

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        That’s what i liked about him last year
        Watch him year by year and you’ll want that dedication.

        Plus he’s a super talented runner to begin with.
        If he’s healthy all year the late second round is his ceiling for me in such a saturated class. (Better depth than last year.)

  12. Forty20 says:

    Really interesting read on Twitter regarding the play of our O-Line from the Week 1 Loss. Jacson Bevens (author of Cigar Thoughts on Field Gulls) shares a long, long series of text messages from Matt Nichols – a former All-Conference Offensive Linesman.

    https://twitter.com/JacsonBevens/status/908374193007321088

    • Ishmael says:

      That’s some of the best, most incisive, analysis I’ve read all week. I’d love to get that dude into the media somehow. It’s interesting in that it tallies with what some other smart people have been saying – the line wasn’t great, but there’s a lot more going on than that.

    • Ukhawk says:

      Nichols insight is awesome. Obama on SEA OL ” There is hope”

      • Hawk Eye says:

        interesting read. The common “blame it all on the o line is too simple”.
        Especially his comment about Russell not mixing up his cadence and becoming predictable.
        I suspect that GB was also reading something about whether the play was run or pass because they seemed to always know

  13. Volume12 says:

    This pertains to every team. The NFL has talent, but these coaches and scouts can’t just throw up their hands and say, ‘ there’s no good talent anymore from the college ranks!’ And then if there is it’s, ‘ well actually they’re not a scheme or system fit.’ Develop these guys. Teach them. Coach them up. What happened to that? Maybe its the FO of the NFL’s problem because they cut the amount of practices and outlaw how physical you can be during them.

    If you can’t find players to fit your system then that’s probably what is defeated. Not the players.

    • Rob Staton says:

      I suspect it’s a combination of things. Talent can be found on the O-line but predominantly it goes early in the first round. That’s why I highlighted again this week how few pro-bowl O-liners have been drafted after the first round since 2010. The guys you are generally taking from round two onwards are the upside types or players who fit a certain physical profile. Those types need a lot of development and coaching and it might take 2-3 years. We saw that with Britt and Unger for starters. And the way the NFL is limited in terms of practice these days it’s hard to work these O-liners into shape before the season begins — and you see more development occurring during the season when the reps are taken.

      That said, there also has to be some scheming and game planning to mask weaknesses. Teams are generally good at that and the Seahawks have been too in the past. If this line is going to struggle again that is the big challenge now. To find a way to put a successful offense on the field regardless.

      • Volume12 says:

        I agree with that, but I was talking more in general not just the O-line.

        There’s some awful football being played right now across the league.

        • Ishmael says:

          This. I think there’s a real unwillingness to work with what players CAN do. Too much ego and fixation on tradition from coaches. Look at Bill O’Brien. For a QB ‘guru’ how many absolute duds has he turned out? His scheme is meant to be seriously difficult to operate, all kinds of option routes, lot of post-snap work. Maybe all the failures under his watch aren’t just down to a lack of talent, but a dogmatic adherence to a scheme that just isn’t practical?

          I thought what the Chiefs were running against the Pats was the most creative, exciting, offense I’d seen in the NFL for a while. I’d love to see more of that. It didn’t look, or feel, gimmicky either. There’s some fantastic defence being played at the moment though, which is a nice change after the no touching Manning era.

          • Volume12 says:

            Right. The NFL can’t just try and do what they’ve done. Changing so much of the fundamentals on the defensive side to try and open up the offenses. NFL teams are just stuck in neutral.

            And because of the limited amount of practices, coaches can’t teach and coach due to the impatience of the owners. They can’t take out that extra time. Due to that it almost seems like NFL coaches are just extensions of their GMs. They end up taking the fall.

            • Volume12 says:

              And things like PFF are a cool metric in context, but is there too much of a reliance on ‘grades’ and not traits?

              • Ishmael says:

                The grades are borderline meaningless. There’s a reason players hate them so much. If you don’t know every single players responsibility on a given play, how are you supposed to judge it fairly? It’s best guess stuff presented as fact.

                Their data collection is great, but that’s about it.

            • Ishmael says:

              Yep, spot on. I’ve been talking about this a bit recently, but there’s work being done in other sports about how important continuity is to performance – from the top down. No surprise that the most stable NFL teams results-wise are also those with the most stable front office, coaching, and playing groups. Coming into every season over the last 5-10 years, you’ve got a pretty good idea that the Patriots, Steelers, Packers, Ravens, and Seahawks will be there or thereabouts at the pointy end. Even the Bengals, hamstrung as they are by the nepotism of their owner, have been consistently good – up to last year anyway.

              A development league would be the single best thing the NFL could do for their product. Imagine a guy like Fant if he’d been given an entire year to work on his craft without having to be thrown into the fire against the big boys? Or QBs like Watson and Mahomes? Goff last year?

              • Old but Slow says:

                I like it. Maybe each team can have a “rookie” league team made up of what we would now call practice squad level guys, maybe allow them to work out with the big club.

                It would employ more, which costs, but they would not make big salaries. Allow maybe a 45 man roster with a designated number of reserves allowed from the main team to supplement the team to make a game possible.

                Main positives are better player development, but additionally development for coaches, trainers and game officials. The franchise would then have a pool of players they know and train to bring to replace injuries and such (prefer not to have any such on our team). Play the games on Thursdays (junk the NFL Thursday debacle), and draw some crowds. Fans love games, and if the players are all on the same level, the competition is fair, it will be as it is from high school and on up.

                Negatives, well, cost. And we well know the owners are generally only getting by, at this point, so even a moderate financial strain could implode the league. Never mind.

                • Ishmael says:

                  Bang on.

                  There was a REALLY interesting thing in a podcast I was listening to this week, can’t remember who it was, maybeee Bill Barnwell talking to a Texans beat writer? She was saying the Texans coaching staff is incredibly young and inexperienced, they’re essentially learning on the fly. It’s much bigger than the staff of the Pats, but experience and excellence of the Pats staff means they don’t need such a large volume of teachers.

              • Kenny Sloth says:

                Your first paragraph is bordering chicken-egg territory.

                Poorly performing teams lack continuity because they get blown up, good teams retain continuity because it already worked.

                Is the team good because the draft picks panned out or did the draft picks pan out because they’re on a good team?

  14. Brandon says:

    Hugh Millen pointed out on KJR this morning, that using the system of assigning a “points” value to draft picks, the Seahawks have spent more draft capital on offensive lineman than any other team since 2010.
    So, the team has not neglected the position over the years.
    Clearly, either the team is picking the wrong players, or is failing to properly develop them.
    As others have pointed out in the comments here, perhaps Cable’s system is too complicated to implement in today’s NFL?
    With the new CBA, there just isn’t enough time to get young players schooled in his scheme, and they can’t properly practice it.
    Moving guys around to play multiple positions is setting the process back even more.

    • Volume12 says:

      I’ve tried to point out the highlights of a ZBS multiple times on here. Its not a complicated scheme. Its intricate. More and more teams are running it. 4 of the top 5 teams in total rushing yards per game last year use some form of it.

      The ZBS is adjustable. Meaning you can change and tweak it during games. You gotta have the right runners for it though. That’s what it’s primarily used for. Running the ball.

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        Good thing we pass it about 50% more than we run, right?

        Like yeah our game sheet was wrecked on the first drive because of sacks and penalties.

        But we also threw it three times during that 3 and out.

        You can’t get sacked on a run.

  15. Ishmael says:

    Anyone watching this Bengals – Texans game? Some brutal stuff.

    Most exciting play of the game, John Ross gets going on an end-around, gets absolutely smashed, loses it and Clowney goes 30-odd yards only to get tackled by Dalton of all people. Clowney running with the ball in one hand like that reminded me of some of the big Fijian boys you get in rugby – Leone Nakarawa, guys like that.

    Watson looks really rough, making me sad.

    • Volume12 says:

      Unfortunately, yes. I love a good ‘car crash’ when it comes to TV.

    • vrtkolman says:

      Watson nearly threw two pick 6’s. His interception issue in college is still a problem IMO.

    • Kenny Sloth says:

      Never liked him.

      Thought he was a dull system player that ran QB draws so much I hated watching his tape.

      Swinney squeezed every f****** ounce out that guy

      • Drew says:

        I agree that they ran way too many QB draws with him but disagree that he’s a dull systems player. I watched every game he played at Clemson, he’s had issues locking on to a receiver and forcing throws, but he had quite a few interceptions that weren’t on him as well.

        Look at his interception numbers compared to Jameis Winston’s in college. Not that different.

        He just needs to settle in and learn a pro system. I think he’ll turn out just fine. He’s a hard worker and is smart enough to make it happen, people just need to be patient for him to learn.

  16. vrtkolman says:

    And there is Watson’s X factor. What a run.

    • Trevor says:

      He looks lost reading coverage’s but I love Watsons leadership and play making. He has the “IT” factor.

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        I don’t like Watson.

        For the value Id prefer even Kizer.

        I mean. I often cross guys off my personal list even though I have no reason to think they’d be bad pros.

        I don’t know Watson. But he doesn’t seem like my kind of QB

        I like a Matt Stafford GAMER. Not a mobile game manager

        An RB with an arm. No better example than Watson. (Cam Newton is a full back with an arm)

    • Ishmael says:

      That was awesome. Not going to get that from Savage.

      Why wouldn’t you try and build an offense around what a guy like this can do? He clearly struggles a bit with reading coverages, so give him some clearly defined reads. He’s a beautifully balanced runner so get him out on some bootlegs and rollouts, maybe even a couple of designed keepers. You’ve got an awful O-line, so recognise that and work on your scramble drill. Basically do exactly what the Hawks did with Wilson early.

      • Trevor says:

        Agree completely! They just need a Beast Mode RB to compliment him.

        • Ishmael says:

          Easier said than done I guess, but Lamar Miller is pretty good and they picked up Foreman in the draft right?

          It’s bizarre to me that they didn’t spend the entire offseason building a gameplan around him. Especially given that Savage was apparently on thin enough ice to get dragged after a single half.

  17. Trevor says:

    My goodness what awful Half of football. Terrible OL play, too many penalties and no flow what so ever.

    The rules limiting practice and officiating are ruining the game and making it unwatchable. No wonder the ratings are down.

    • Ishmael says:

      They need to get the new CBA right.

      Rookies need more flexibility in their contracts – maybe the ability to go to arbitration after two seasons?

      More practice looks like it’s needed. Although players do need to be protected from injury as much as possible. Can a better balance be reached?

      They need to pull back on the rule book, stop trying to define everything down to the absolute millimetre. The catch rules are just deranged. Everyone knows what a catch is, leave it to the eye test. Stop picking certain rules to emphasise at different points through the season, just be consistent – teams will adapt if they’re forced to.

      • Volume12 says:

        Although they’ve muddied the catch rule so much, I ‘m not so sure they even know what a catch is at this point.

  18. Trevor says:

    John Ross can fly but he looks like a high school kid out there. I would be shocked if he plays a season without injuries.

    • Ishmael says:

      Needs to go to the James Harrison school of Extremely Natural Gainz. Small guys have made it though, DeSean Jackson is tiny, bet he’s even smaller than Ross. Lockett and Baldwin are probably roughly around his size? You’d be holding your breath watching him go over the middle though.

    • vrtkolman says:

      Yep totally agree. He’s going to make Paul Richardson look like Hines Ward.

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        Why do you think that?

        Hines Ward missed like 10 games in 13 years.

        You don’t know much about Hines Ward it seems.

        1000 career receptions. One of just 4 NFL players in history born in South Korea.

        Future Hall of Famer.

        Now onto Ross

        He tore the meniscus in both knees (played a whole season on one causing him to favor and injure the other) and during the second he tore his ACL

        THEN AFTER

        He roasted all of the west coasts favorite secondaries, shattered the combine speed record and hasn’t lost a lick of explosion.

        I wouldnt say he’s injury prone. He’s never picked up nicks like Prosise.

        Ross is definitely not as fragile as Lockett, Prich, Prosise and Rawls.

        I think he will have a similar injury history to Hines Ward by the end of his career

        That is, practically non-existent

        • Kenny Sloth says:

          Myyyyyy baaaad.

          You said Richardson would seem like he missed as few games as Ward duh.

          DUH. My bad

          • vrtkolman says:

            Hines Ward’s durability in the ultra physical 2000-era AFC North was so unique. Dude was awesome.

            • Kenny Sloth says:

              My bad. I should’ve known you wouldn’t make that error. You always have relevant historical knowledge.

              I still disagree that Ross will be more injured than the average receiver per start

        • lil'stink says:

          Is Lockett fragile? He missed 1 game in his last 3 years of college, and didn’t miss a game in the NFL until his freak injury. He also took several huge, nasty hits his rookie year and just bounced up and kept playing.

        • Del Tre says:

          How is Lockett fragile?

    • Kenny Sloth says:

      He’s fine. If you want we can point out horrible body types around the NFL.

      I’ll go first.

      Jay Cutler lmao

      • Volume12 says:

        I can’t figure out why Cincinnati drafted him. They lost their 2 best O-lineman in FA and took an injury plagued receiver that struggles to separate against bugger NFL CBs.

        If AJ Green only gets 1 target in the 2nd half, what good is he?

        • Kenny Sloth says:

          Reply fail.

          Yeah… For my money dude could be better than Julio if he were in the right system

        • vrtkolman says:

          I think Cincinnati was banking on Jake Fisher and Cedric Ogbuhei developing. They were both high picks and in theory had enough time in the system to get it. They look bad though. Athletes playing big boy football on the offensive line.

  19. Kenny Sloth says:

    I think this should be Bevell’s last year as OC

    We need competition in the coachs room.

    I’m not gonn watch no gotdamn basketball picks on my gotdamn seahawks

    RUN THAT ROCK OG

    • Coleslaw says:

      I really wish Pete could part with Cable/Bevell but who knows if that will ever happen. I think Paul Allen could actually force a change. Maybe not firing Bevell or Cable, but forcing them to change their schemes. I really think that if we had a power run scheme we would have been in the 25-15 range in the league for the last few years.
      And I just hate Bevell.. his play calling makes me cringe at least once a game lol. I say we get Sark back

      • Coleslaw says:

        The worst part is in 2015 Bell was great and our offense was dangerous, explosive and exotic in the passing game which set up the run and we just completely abandoned it… Wilson looked better than ever and so did every one on our offense. I’m cringing writing this because it’s been 2 years and they can’t even figure out (remember) how to run an effective offense..

        Fire Bevell! Starting the petition again lol

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        25-15 range of what?

        I wanna keep Cable. And Bevell is an amazing play designer.

        I just want a Kris Richard on Offense that’s pounding the run and COMPETING

        Bevell is stale. I mean. No team is 100% and devoid of holes, but it’s time to cut the excuses and face results.

        Our team is far too streaky for the amount of continuity there and I just think a new voice would do wonders.

        And our players deserve the challenge.

        I’m willing to change my mind if we get consistent on O

        But Cable is developing the TAILS off these cats. We can’t afford to lose that. Tanks the whole machine

        Can’t lose Pete and Tom.

        Either Bevell runs or he walks.

        • lil'stink says:

          I agree that Bevell can design plays probably as well as anyone but it’s his ability to “read” the game as it is unfolding that worries me. And all those 4 vert routes seem to not be very effective for us.

          Whether it’s Cable or Bevell who should shoulder the bulk of the blame there seems to be a disconnect somewhere. I mean, it starts and ends with Pete, and my gut tells me Cable has more influence than Bevell.

  20. vrtkolman says:

    If Dalton isn’t getting rid of the ball instantly, the play is over. As an OC how can you design an offense around that?

  21. Ukhawk says:

    Maybe it’s as simple as this, JSPC have consciously ‘created’ a very tough to solve problem:
    Draft a franchise QB in 3rd round, huge salary cap competitive advantage helps to win SB (yeah!) then pay said QB after rookie deal, lose cap advantage (good problem, but still challenging)
    Spend remaining money elsewhere (by choice/forced to) hence predominantly use draft for OL (no quick fixes/stability)
    Turnover all 5* starting ’15 OL in 2 seasons (no continuity)
    Target drafting bigger guys who are athletic enough to run a zone scheme (tall order)
    Draft bottom of each round (good problem I know) to find these exceptional OL prospects (aka unicorns)
    Pick a complex, non-NCAA zone scheme with bigger upside but a much bigger lead time (still waiting)
    Move on from one the greatest of all time RBs (thank Father Time)
    Keep pieces brought in with view to complement the former GOAT RB who is now gone (JG?)
    Stick to your ‘philosophy’ guns & don’t change scheme to fit current capabilities of current personnel (yet more turnover?)

    I know it’s a gamble in a parity driven league, a necessary roll of the dice during a super bowl window, a necessity to not leverage the future, to get younger, to stay competitive, that it’ll take time & that only a middling OL might be enough … but it is still agonising. Still a major problem to solve.

  22. Huso Liszt says:

    The thing I keep missing in analysis of the offensive line is what a head case Russell Wilson is–a brilliant talent to be sure, and particularly a great innovator once a play breaks down and he manages to stay standing–but when given a chance, in non option passing plays, he comes into the game having over visualized the play, and nothing in football turns out the way you think it will, and Wilson freezes, taking way too long to get the ball out. Even the best line in the league would have a hard time protecting him under those circumstances.

    • Old but Slow says:

      Huso, I can see what you mean in the GB game, but I don’t think that is characteristic of Wilson in general. He was likely shaken by the results of the first plays. and then he was hesitant and shaky.

      I was not impressed with how he played or with the plays that were called. Did they run any run-option? Not much if at all.

      Is there another element we are not hearing about? Graham seemed uninvolved, Russell was not sharp, Lacy was slow, our offensive line was discombobulated (I have always wanted to be able to find a way to use that word. Thanks, all.), are they ill?

      Discontent is not possible. We have Pete.

    • Volume12 says:

      He’s definitely at his best when he’s cornered metaphorically speaking (you don’t box in a vet! Always Sunny In Philly reference). Don’t know if that’s due to the adversity he’s overcome in his life and always havinhg to prove the naysayers wrong, but even during 2013 there were a handful of games were he was up against the wall and he came out swinging.

      If they want to rely on RW more and more, it might be time to start letting him make plays at the LOS as he sees fits.

  23. CharlieTheUnicorn says:

    Derwin James: Scouts see future NFL star in freakish FSU safety (NFL.com)

    Where would this guy go, top 5? There appears to be a bunch to like about him. Seriously doubt Seattle will ever get a whiff of him in the draft….. but a name to keep tabs on, even if he is a red-shirt Sophomore.

    • Volume12 says:

      He’s the best player in this draft IMO. I’ll be shocked if he’s not top 5.

    • Ishmael says:

      Top five unless he gets injured again or his play goes completely off a cliff for some reason.

      Immense talent.

      • Volume12 says:

        Even though its early my top 10 as of now in no order would be…

        Lamar Jackson, QB, L’ville
        Derwin James, S/DB/LB, Florida St.
        Christian Wilkins, DT, Clemson
        Sam Darnold, QB, USC
        Arden Key, DE, LSU
        Saquan Barkley, HB, Penn St.
        Courtland Sutton, WR, SMU
        Jaire Alexander, CB, L’ville or Tavarus McFadden, CB, Florida St.
        Vita Vea, DT, UW
        Orlando Brown, OT, Oklahoma

  24. Volume12 says:

    I’ve noticed Seattle has scouted a few FCS schools this summer. Guys like Stony Brook’s OT Timon Parris, Illinois St. CB Devontae Harris, and Tennessee St’s DE/EDGE Ebenezer ‘Ebo’ Ogundeko.

    Ogundeko has good edge size at 6’3, 255. Former 4 star recruit for Clemson. Was kicked off the team for financial transaction fraud aka manipulated a credit card. He’s dealt with some injuries too.

    In 19 games he has 22 TFL and 10.5 QB sacks

    He’s aggressive man. Plays pissed off. Good motor. Long. Uses his speed well. Good run defender. Loves to try and jump the snap. Good instincts. He creates havoc/disruptive Makes a lot of plays behind or at the LOS. Isn’t moved off the ball easily, but would like to see him use his hands more.

    • Kenny Sloth says:

      Ebo sounds like the kind of red flag we’d look into and decide it was a kid that wanted money

      Money isn’t always a problem in the NFL

      • Volume12 says:

        Guys play this game for anything other than money?

        Something I’ve always lived by, ‘Find something you love to do for free that people will pay you for.’

        • Kenny Sloth says:

          No I meant. An NFL player isnt going to make the same mistakes as a broke college student.
          So it sounds like a non issue. Completely has nothing to do with him as a player.

          Do you know who we’ve looked at with a similar transfer/expulsion?

          Aaron Lynch or something like that.

          Obviously Jarran Reed’s career arc seems more Seahawky, but perhaps it is an area we are willing to exploit, if we haven’t already

  25. Hawk Eye says:

    interesting take on the o line here
    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/9/14/16306348/seahawks-offensive-line-russell-wilson-inexperience-2017-luke-joeckel-justin-britt-germain-ifedi

    Howard Mudd also made some comments (not sure where) that Britt is a top 6-7 centre and Ifedi will be a top 20% RT.

    the easy thing to say is that Seattle has a terrible o line and that they don’t know what they are doing, and are doing nothing to fix it. Every “expert” says it, PFF says it, so it must be true. Every expert has said that NE is unbeatable, and they should go 16-0. It seems unreasonable that someone like PC will do nothing to fix a big problem that stops him from competing. However, the solution is not simple. It involves a salary cap, it involves value paid to players within that cap, and it involves competing with 31 other teams for free agents and draft picks. And it involves short and long term plans and consequences. Their plan appears to be to get a bunch of young guys and let them grow together. And that involves making mistakes, adjusting as you go and accepting a learning curve. Every other team in the league has a flaw. Why does Denver not have a top QB? Why does NE have no pass rush? Why does NO have no defense?

    never panic.
    I am willing to accept that Pete and John know more than I do and can figure it out better than me. And they have the resume and pay checks to prove it. I wish the o line was better, and hope it gets better. And I will yell at the TV on Sunday if they play poorly. But I will try not t think I know more than a couple of guys who have won a Super Bowl recently.

  26. Rob says:

    I watched USC’s line play quite well last Saturday. There are some good players on that line.

  27. Kenny Sloth says:

    Went to look at a room to rent on my day off

    Went well until he said “you should meet the dogs”

    The biggest basset hound you ever seent jumpt right up and took a chunk out my tricep

    Then he dug deep in the opposite fore arm.

    The owner put his knee in the dogs neck and the other dog jumped in. It seemed more submissive and didnt bite as deep but it went for both arms.

    I didnt wanna hit the dogs cuz who the fu** wants to hit a dog??!? But when the first one came back again i ran out of his appropriately fenced yard. Beware of dog sign glinting mockingly in the morning sun.

    I’m at the hospital gettin my flirt on with the nurses now

    “I used to date a chick that wanted to be a Xray technician (;”

    ” you aint got no flintstones gummies instead of these antibiotics”

    Not how I wanted to spend my day off.

    • Sea Mode says:

      Bummer. That sounds like no fun. Take care, my man.

    • cha says:

      Report the attack to the local sheriff.

      You also have standing to file a claim on the landlord’s howeowner’s policy.

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        Thats right.

        I’d rather not report someone’s dog, but maybe it’s neglectful or irresponsible to not

        • Hawktalker#1 says:

          If there’s anything worse than what happened to you, it would be doing nothing about the dogs and having it happened to someone else that gets hurt even worse or even killed. I’m betting you’re pretty good sized guy, what about a woman or a child getting attacked ? Don’t get me wrong, I love dogs. I’ve grown up with them my entire life, but dogs are not more important than people. I also think it’s criminal to own dogs that attacked people like that. Hope you heal up quickly.

          • Kenny Sloth says:

            Thanks for the advice and good wishes.

            • Hawk Eye says:

              get well soon. And I agree with the others, you have to report this. Dogs have to be trained to get along with people. People who own dogs and do not understand their responsibility should not own them. This sounds like a pretty innocent situation where the dogs bit you for no sensible reason.
              Hope it turns out ok for you. Good luck

  28. FuzzyLOgic says:

    Dallas was ahead of the game in that they decided about 5 years ago to grab the best O-lineman they could find in the draft. If I remember correctly they even nabbed a top 15 O-lineman in the draft a few years ago who fell out of the draft for some reason and now he’s a stud starter for them.

  29. Ed says:

    My issues with PC, JS, TC, DB and the OL is it’s still disjointed.

    Blame PC for not letting RW take risks.
    Blame JS for not adjusting his OL draft philosophy (could that be more on TC as well?)
    Blame TC for wanting projects and having such a big ego.
    Blame DB for not adjusting to his teams strengths and weaknesses.
    Blame the OL for just not digging deep enough to

    Not one of those things have changed in 5 years and so the Hawks still have the same exact problems.

    Hey PC, let RW wing it dude. Enough with over conservative. Your D is on the field all the time not because of turnovers, because your offense doesn’t work, so what’s the difference.

    Hey JS, stop listening to TC and just draft Bitonio and others Rob has talked about that turn into solid OL.

    Hey TC, quit trying to sell me a lemon. Adjust the message, the philosophy, I don’t care, but your way is not working well here.

    Hey DB, you know the OL stinks, so how about slants, shallow crosses, hooks etc… Quit with all the 5-7 step drops, it doesn’t work.

    Hey OL, have some pride. Quit getting beat off the line. Quit getting beat with basics. You get beat because you’re up against Watt, fine. But quit letting every D look like the 85 Bears.

    Sorry everyone, just had to get that off my chest.

  30. nichansen01 says:

    Round 1 pick next year will be QB

    Russell Wilson gonna get traded

    Sheldon Richardson extended

    • Hawktalker#1 says:

      Hard to take that seriously. Seahawks troll blog? 🙂

    • Rob Staton says:

      Nope.

      Not even worth entertaining. Madden 18 level topic.

    • C-Dog says:

      I just.. No.. I can’t.

    • Ishmael says:

      Wilson for a 2018 first and second, 2019 first, 2020 first.

      Take Lamar Jackson with the 2018 first. Use the native first pick and a couple of others to go up and get Derwin James.

      Trade Sherman for another 2018 first, take Tavarus McFadden.

      What could possibly go wrong?

      • nichansen01 says:

        Haha well this is what Jared Stranger is saying on twitter

        • Ishmael says:

          Far be it from me to disagree with the Gospel of Jared.

          • Volume12 says:

            He’s one of the ‘experts’ I’m referring to below.

          • Rob Staton says:

            Jared has too much time on his hands.

            A classic case of how Twitter is filling the world with horrible, pointless takes.

            Back when people used to write actual articles instead of just 140 characters, they’d get half way through the piece and realise it’s a terrible idea. It’s difficult to reach that point when it takes 14 seconds to send a Tweet.

            • Ishmael says:

              It’s a shocker. Getting a high-upside quarterback to develop behind Wilson is a good, smart, and prudent, idea. Trading a top-five quarterback to extend a defensive tackle is not.

              • C-Dog says:

                +1,000,000

                One game into the season and people are talking about trading a franchise quarterback who isn’t even 30 yet. Nonsense.

  31. Ishmael says:

    Not sure if any of you guys listen to the Setting the Edge podcast with Charles McDonald and Justis Mosqueda?

    Had Damien Woody on talking about the offensive line yesterday, some interesting stuff in there.

    • Volume12 says:

      Justis the 19 or 20 year old analysis?

      Type of guy that will watch Josh Rosen makes that comeback against Texas A&M and say ‘it was good, but look at this throw. He didn’t set his feet.’

      Is Charles still heart broken over the SB?

      • Volume12 says:

        Both very smart, educated fans of the game. But they can both miss me with that arguing with other so called ‘experts’ on Twitter.

        • Ishmael says:

          Ha yeah, that’s them. I’m not a huge fan of the Twitter stuff either, but it’s just brand building. Have to get your name out there somehow these days. Only the big boys are paying, so you have to get their attention somehow.

          I like that they have their own opinions though, and that they aren’t afraid to go in to bat for them. They’ve never bought into the Lamar Jackson to WR nonsense for example

          • Volume12 says:

            No, they’re both highly intelligent when it comes to football and I wouldn’t tell anyone not to listen or follow them. And I got no problem with twitter either. I’m about to start my own account again, it was just the arguing with other ‘experts.’ We can all disagree w/o shots fired ya know what I mean? Trying to be the smartest guys in the room isn’t a good look IMO.

            Agree about the branding too. To get a podcast on YouTube over ya need a gimmick now.

            Why would anyone think Lamar Jackson should be a WR? Let me get this straight. According to those that think he is, he’s not ready to a be an NFL QB. But they think a guy who has never played the WR position before and will need to learn how to run routes is the way to go?

  32. Volume12 says:

    Isn’t this Memphis WR Anthony Miller (a walk on) the same one that made Paxton Lynch look like an NFL QB?

  33. Volume12 says:

    This is what PFF should be about. Not assigning grades.

    ‘2 of 19 GO routes thrown in his coverage resulted in a catch.’ Seahawks CB Shaq Griffin

  34. Ishmael says:

    Liked this from Andrew Hawkins, replying to Kurt Warner asking what’s happened to NFL offenses:

    “Coaching. HUGE misconception that because theyre an NFL coach, theyre the “worlds best”. Unlike players, coaches are hired on a Buddy System”
    https://twitter.com/Hawk/status/908687045870145536

    Nepotism and conservatism are big problems in the NFL in my opinion.

  35. Volume12 says:

    Damn! Wanted to see SD St. HB Rashaad Penny- 5’10, 220 lbs, tonight against Stanford. Has a nice combo of speed and power.

    39 carries, 413 yds., 5 TDs (3 rushing, 1 receiving, 1 KR), and averaging 10.59 YPC.

    2016 stats: 1,018 yds rushing, over 7 YPC, 11 TDs. 3 TDs receiving and 2 TDs off KR’s.

    He also has 6 career KR’s for TDs’s.

    • Volume12 says:

      Speaking of RBs. ND’s Josh Adams is a dude! Built like a horse too. There’s a little Derrick Henry in his game.

  36. Trevor says:

    Every time I watch Mason Rudolph the more I kike him. He is just slightly behind Darnold and Jackson for me.

    Some really nice QB options this year!

    • Rob Staton says:

      Rudolph at best a mid-round pick IMO. Lot’s of throws into the flat, major lack of physical tools. It’s putting it mildly to say his deep throws lack zip. They flutter in the wind. Darnold and Jackson are ultimate playmakers with plus physical qualities.

  37. MarkinSeattle says:

    Notre Dame’s OL putting a hurting on BC, so far 40 rushes, 414 yards. Three rushes over 64 yards and another at 46. They are opening up some pretty mammoth holes.

  38. Volume12 says:

    Fun matchup today between BC’s Harold Landry, top 20 pick, and ND’s Mike McGlinchey & Quinton Nelson. Those 2 have mauled him for much of the day.

    He won’t go top 10, but Nelson has firmly established himself as one of the 10 best players in the country. At least for me.

    • Volume12 says:

      Florida’s CB Duke Dawson might be the best pure nickel corner in the country. He’s fun. Would love him in Seattle!

  39. Volume12 says:

    This is why CFB & Saturdays are king. All f***ing hail! Game winning hail Mary? My god.

  40. Volume12 says:

    Did those 21 scouts show up to watch Wyoming QB Josh Allen or Oregon HB Royce Freeman because he’s putting on a show again. 3 games in a row. Just took a screen pass on 3rd & 10 and turned it into a 55 harder.

    He’s an animal.

  41. Trevor says:

    Lamar Jackson is so much fun to watch. Might even be more dynamic than Mike Vick.

  42. KD says:

    Dante pettis will be a 2nd round pick on his return ability alone. Incredible!

  43. C-Dog says:

    Alright, alright, alright. Sam Ehlinger. Lock ‘me horns. What a game.

  44. Volume12 says:

    When is NFL draft media going to admit Wyoming QB Josh Allen is actually bad? I mean they tout him as some top 10 pick, but somewhere, sometime he has to actually look and play like one right? Or is this the perfect example of the ‘old boy network’ in scouting circles? See a tall, good sized white kid with a big arm and let’s make excuses for him. Granted he has no talent around him, but he’s looked like nothing more than a day 3 developmental QB.

    • teejmo says:

      Well, CBS Sports draft analysts gave him an “F” grade for today’s game and basically said “forget about him until draft time”, though that was with the caveat that “he just doesn’t have any help and you need some help to be among college football’s elite.” So, while I don’t necessarily agree with the last bit that much, it’s starting to look like the media is starting to come around. It’s actually kind of a shame, because last year there were some moments of his that I thought “yeah, this kid could be pretty good.”

    • C-Dog says:

      I just wonder that for a league starved for good quarterback play that this class, overall, is a little over hyped. Watching Darnold yesterday, we saw some tremendous plays, but we also some bad play and a bit of bone headedness. To think he’s an automatic savior, yeah, I don’t know, maybe.

  45. WALL UP says:

    RELAX… The Hawks will win the rest of their games despite the OL play. The defense is that good. They faced the best offense in the league and nearly stonewalled them. Besides, the OL will improve. It’s just a cummunication issue that Cable will simplify.

  46. CharlieTheUnicorn says:

    Seahawks CB Shaq Griffin

    He has brought to the NFL / Seahawks team more than could normally be hoped for in a rookie. Pressed into duty vs AR + Company as an outside CB….. his ability to make up ground and make some nice plays have been a welcome change from some others who occupied the position in the last 2 years. He will only get better…. he is definitely “all that and a bag of chips”.

    • Ed says:

      If he keeps it up, it will be real easy to part with Sherman and Lane. Sherman for money and Lane for being awful. Also, the JG experiment has failed. If you can’t find a way to at least get him rolling by midseason, might as well trade him this year for a team looking to get rid of a solid OL. Luke and Nick aren’t dynamic, but they block well and can catch the few passes Russ throws their way. Saves a lot of money. Maybe to Texans for DB.

      • Volume12 says:

        Has the experiment failed or has Jimmy? Half of the games he’s still his spectacular self the other half he’s just kind of going through the motions, coasting.

        • CHawk Talker Eric says:

          Slightly off topic, but I think Kelce has become the #1 TE in the League. He does everything well. Like Gronk, but healthy/durable and available.

          I also think KCC really know how to get the most out of a prospect. Take Kareem Hunt. Dude is flat rolling in his first 2 games. He wasn’t the best RB in the class, but he’s performing like that. 5 TDs in his first 2 games? Are you kidding me? And he’s earned each one. None of them were gimmies.

          And on D, Chris Jones continues to impress. 3 sacks vs PHI. It sucks losing Eric Berry, but if any team can cover the loss, it’s KCC. My hot take: KCC is the team to beat in the AFC.

        • DC says:

          It remains curious to me that our offense’s best tear in recent years took place when JG was out of the lineup. I think Russ is much better at connecting with wideouts outside than he is hitting the intermediate middle of the field. The Hawks had the right idea looking for a big redzone target but it seems like a WR version of that would have better served this offense.

        • Steele says:

          Jimmy G has delivered what percentage of what he was brought in (expensively) to do? 30%? A great teammate, but a bad fit in this offense and this QB.

  47. Smitty1547 says:

    UT / USC great great game, did college football proud

  48. nichansen01 says:

    Dante Pettis is so athletic and so smooth, but he’s also so skinny. I think he’ll go later than people think. He would truly be a great addition to the seahawks. He’s a better returner than Lockett, and probably a better receiver than P-Rich.

  49. Volume12 says:

    Let’s watch the leagues next great pas rusher. Jacksonville’s Yannick Ngakoue.

    • Volume12 says:

      Poor Leonard Fournette. Facing 8 man boxes at this level too. Imagine what he could do with an actual QB for once.

    • D-OZ says:

      The player I compared to Derrick Thomas on this site. That may have been a little overboard though…

  50. Kenny Sloth says:

    Brandon Coleman that terrible terrible find by Rob that went in the seventh round caught a beautiful fade touchdown and is a modest steal of this generation

  51. Ed says:

    Lacy inactive. That was quick

  52. Trevor says:

    TB Bucs are legit and will win NFC South IMO.

  53. Trevor says:

    Still bummed we never took Chris Jones last year. Exactly what we needed. If we take him not Ifedi neither Mcdowell or the Richardson trade would have been nessc.

    He is going to be a pro-bowler for a long time.

    • Kenny Sloth says:

      I think he’s inferior to both. We also really needed Germain Ifedi and got Reed as a consolation who I think is far more comparable to what Jones is/could be

      • Trevor says:

        You really think Reed and Jones are comparable? I hope this is another of your jokes.

        • Kenny Sloth says:

          I mean… I think Reed is probably better?

          Their stats are super comparable and I watch more of Reed, but Jones gets some good penetration and is vital to their D?

          I just dont care about this argument because he’s really not that much better than what we got and we got baller ass Germain Ifedi.

          John Schneider knew that if you don’t draft Germain Ifedi you have no idea what you’re doing

          • Trevor says:

            Kenny Chris Jones had more sacks today than Reed has in his career. One is a penetrating DT /run stuffing DE. The other guy in Hawks uni is purely a run stuffing DT.

  54. Kenny Sloth says:

    I like the play calling so far

  55. Kenny Sloth says:

    Oh read option? You don’t say

  56. Kenny Sloth says:

    Ugly by Odhiambo on that Lockett catch

  57. Volume12 says:

    Imagine that. Seattle running bootlegs, naked boots.

    And these RBs still haven’t hit one cutback lane yet.

  58. Trevor says:

    With Russell Wilson, Graham , Baldwin etc how can our red zone offense struggle so consistently. Is play calling or Wilsons height?

    Frustrating as a fan to see them unable to use Graham effectively in the red zone where he should almost be unstoppable.

    • Steele says:

      Wilson’s height is old news that coaching should have compensated for. Yes, frustrating, but this is Bevell and Cable.

  59. Trevor says:

    There Kam is! Nice stop.

  60. Kenny Sloth says:

    Jeremy Lane got blocked on that last run play and the ref seperated the two

  61. Volume12 says:

    Runs into a sack and sails a throw to a wide open Lockett

    • Volume12 says:

      This O-line has RW shook.

      • Kenny Sloth says:

        Idk about thaat

        I think russell feels external pressure from fans and media a lot more than we like to imagine

    • Kenny Sloth says:

      He’s definitely throwing inaccurately now.

      I don’t think he could see Lockett on that pass. He had Joeckle in his grill.

      Seems like they want him to run.

      BOBBY WAGNER

  62. Kenny Sloth says:

    These sacks are gonna get blamed on the OL

  63. Kenny Sloth says:

    Immediately knew that was Darboh when he caught that

  64. vrtkolman says:

    Lockett is just a really good receiver.

  65. Kenny Sloth says:

    Russ double clutching that

    Still no td this season

  66. Kenny Sloth says:

    Richardson on thay screen tho

  67. vrtkolman says:

    Lockett can do everything. I think he’s going to blow up this year.

  68. Kenny Sloth says:

    If you wanna play like shit the whole game

    A shitty team will catch you

  69. Volume12 says:

    2 minute offense coming up.

  70. Kenny Sloth says:

    5th or 6th team drop. When are we gonna run it.

    • Volume12 says:

      Never. This offense is trash. Baldwin & Lockett ain’t enough.

    • lil'stink says:

      We’ve ran 18 times. Carson and Rawls? 14 rushing attempts for 26 yards. Bevell knows that Tom Cable’s line can’t run block (at least against this 49ers front). Also have to question if our RB’s are making the right reads.

  71. Kenny Sloth says:

    I don’t want to fire Bevell because he’s a bad coordinator; he’s not.

    I just want to replace him with someone more thoroughly commited to the run

  72. Matt says:

    If the Hawks can’t score on the Niners… well, it might be a tough year.

    While I think the O will get better as the season progresses, this offfense looks like it has no identity at all.

  73. Aaron says:

    This offense is BROKEN!!! Hawks can’t run the ball, protect well, or throw for explosive plays. When are we gonna adapt or is this who we are, a team with no identity? So sad to see such an all time great defense wasted because the offense is so inept.

  74. Ed says:

    Please fire DB and TC and hire Norv Turner. The guy loves to run the ball and use TE. Please PC, make the move

  75. Kenny Sloth says:

    OL performing well against this pedigree DL for the 40 giners

  76. Volume12 says:

    Bam Bam got away with 1 there.

  77. Kenny Sloth says:

    Finally running behins Carson

  78. vrtkolman says:

    Rawls didn’t even attempt to block Armstead on that sack. He is a liability at this point.

  79. Kenny Sloth says:

    Glad we kept McEvoy over Kasen Williams

  80. Volume12 says:

    Yank McEvoy. Dude has killed a drive and taken points off the board.

  81. vrtkolman says:

    Are the 49ers trying to end Eric Reid’s career?

  82. Ishmael says:

    I’m out and can’t watch, 6-6 though? What is going on? At what point do we start to get seriously worried?

  83. Volume12 says:

    That better be a safety!

    F**k u refs! R ya blind!?

  84. PowerPeanut says:

    Atleast Jon ryan is getting some reps

  85. Rowdy says:

    Not one aspect of are offense is playing above league average. I’d say all of them are playing at a bottom of the league level right now.

  86. Forrest says:

    This is just painful to watch.

  87. vrtkolman says:

    We get some momentum on O and then a false start. What a surprise.

  88. neil says:

    Does it look like this offense can beat the Titans, Falcons, Giants, Cowboys, Eagles, Texans, Cardinals, Rams ?

  89. vrtkolman says:

    Wilson magic!

  90. Volume12 says:

    What a throw! Damn.

  91. Volume12 says:

    Of course. Missed XP’s.

  92. Ishmael says:

    Touchdown! I’ve heard of them! We’re better than the Bengals! WOO

    🙄

  93. Volume12 says:

    So is Eddie Lacey a healthy inactive because…

    A. He’s washed up
    B. They save 62 or 65 grand when he is or
    C. Both

  94. vrtkolman says:

    Carson is ending this game! There is no way he isn’t the starter in Tennessee.

  95. Ukhawk says:

    First time in a long time I’ve seen the Hawks be able to literally run out time on the clock by running.

    Loved Carson Sep in short yardage, never seems to take a loss on a play even though again the blocking was a struggle.

  96. Ishmael says:

    Take the win, get better.

    • Volume12 says:

      Bruh. We’re winning ugly or not at all this year.

      • Volume12 says:

        Its scary that we only need 14-17 points to win with this defense and we might not even get that.

        • Ishmael says:

          😂 That’s outrageous.

          Controlled the TOP this week at least? That’s something? Russ with 12 carries, even if 3 or 4 of them are kneeldowns that’s interesting, they’re trying to get him moving. Preseason feels like a longgg time ago.

  97. Forrest says:

    The offense looked better than last week, but they have to improve if they’re gonna beat the Titans. Defense looked great again. It looked like the offense finally “figured it out” late in the game, so let’s hope that carries over to next week. Go Hawks!!

  98. Volume12 says:

    CB Shaq Griffin wasn’t even targeted was he?

  99. nichansen01 says:

    Jimmy Graham is a joke

  100. vrtkolman says:

    Dallas can’t run at all and as a result, Dak looks like a CFL QB. Russell is hall of fame caliber guys.

  101. nichansen01 says:

    A wins a wins a win. Against Tennessee on the road tho? I’m thinking 2016 Tampa bay game.

  102. Volume12 says:

    Won the TO battle, TOP, had more total yardage, 0 TO’s for us, and we ran the ball at least 25 times.

  103. Volume12 says:

    Shots fired!

    Rodney Harrison says, ‘this is 2 weeks in a row Seattle’s O-line hasn’t looked good. I always pick them because of their D, but if they don’t get this figured out it’ll be a long season.

    Dan Patrick: How do u fix that?

    Tony Dungy: Get better players.

    😂😂

  104. Sea Mode says:

    What is wrong with Jimmy? He’s supposed to be in tip top form after finally getting a fully healthy off-season, but he looks like he’s literally just going through the motions.

    I’ll let McEvoy and Prosise off the hook for now. Everyone has a bad day. Drops are gonna happen, especially when it’s wet out. At least the effort seemed to be there for them and they ran their routes and got open.

    Darboh looks more and more promising each game. I’m starting to see why they fell in love with him. Hope it keeps coming together for him and Russ finds a way to buy enough time to get a throw off…