Your leading rusher has 469 yards and was cut weeks ago.
You own the 22nd best running game in the NFL.
That is not Seahawks football.
This team is built on connections. The offense runs the ball and sets the tone, that in turns creates openings for explosive plays in the passing game. Dictating to the opponent on offense helps the defense play in ‘their style’, without needing to be overly exotic or creative week-to-week. If you can rush with four, it helps the coverage unit for obvious reasons. Everything is connected.
This year, one factor is completely absent and it’s probably why we’ve seen so many inconsistent aspects of the team overall.
They can’t run the ball.
In some cases, they refuse to.
First and foremost, this situation has to be addressed in the off-season. It’s the priority. Everything else can wait. The 2017 Seattle Seahawks have to be a better running team. Pure and simple.
When faced with such a glaring need in the past, they’ve been aggressive.
So what are some of the options?
Surely the O-line needs major work?
Yes, based on what we’ve seen in 2016. Yet here’s the conundrum facing the Seahawks. They clearly wanted to build a line that could grow together. For years they’ve faced annual changes — and consistency is so important for this unit.
Finally they had a young, athletic, big, explosive group. It’s also a cost-effective group. Ideally they would spend the next 3-4 years playing together, developing, improving. For now all they had to be was competent and not hurt the team.
Sadly, that’s not happened.
If anything they’re getting worse week by week. So what do you do? Show faith that they’ll come good over time, as per the original plan? Make a few extra additions in the draft and punt for competition being the key? Or do you see a rapidly closing Championship window and go bold, tear up the plan to develop your own players and try and find a quick fix?
There isn’t really an ideal solution.
Who is a keeper and who could be replaced?
Justin Britt has played well enough to keep his place at center but the other four spots could be up for grabs. George Fant has shown some potential given his incredible lack of football experience. Yet there’s nothing to suggest we’re seeing the early signs of a blossoming NFL career. Can you rely on Fant for the future? It’s hard to say you can.
Mark Glowinski hasn’t been great despite his redshirt season in 2015. Germain Ifedi has not shown signs of progression either. And the right tackle spot has to be addressed.
So who is young and just needs time and who isn’t good enough?
Good luck working that one out — because they probably aren’t going to be able to replace four players.
Invest in free agency
According to Spotrac, the Seahawks have an estimated $40m in free cap space for 2017. Assuming Michael Bennett and Kam Chancellor receive contract extensions, they probably won’t be able to spend all of that. But they’ll have enough for at least one, if not two, crucial acquisitions.
Give us some free agent names to monitor
Chance Warmack (G, Tennessee)
If you want to know how likely Warmack is to leave Tennessee, here’s an exert from a Q&A on the Titans official website. A fan asks Jim Wyatt about draft needs, asserting, “The O-line will need a Guard when they release Chance Warmack“. Wyatt’s response is merely to note, “As for Chance, his contract us up.”
Warmack and Jonathan Cooper were unique prospects in 2013. It’s not often you see pure college guards going in the top-10. Brandon Scherff, who ended up at guard for Washington as a top-five pick, played tackle at Iowa.
Few players have looked more of a sure thing than Warmack — a dominant force of nature at Alabama. His combination of size (6-2, 317lbs) and length (35 inch arms), matched up with his physical ability made for a very intriguing prospect. Mike Mayock considered him the best player in the 2013 draft. Todd McShay compared him to Steve Hutchinson.
He didn’t do many workouts at the combine but did manage a 9-2 in the broad jump.
Strangely, his NFL career has been quite middling.
It might be that he just isn’t all that good. In college his physical talent overwhelmed opponents but in the NFL, against the best of the best, he doesn’t stand out.
That said, whether it’s in Tennessee or somewhere else, someone is going to give him a second chance to deliver on his potential. And he might not be quite as expensive as the next man on the list.
Kevin Zeitler (G, Cincinnati)
The Bengals are notorious non-spenders in free agency. They pick and choose who they pay — so while Andy Dalton, Geno Atkins and A.J. Green have remained in Cincinnati, others have surprisingly moved on.
Whether they feel like a major investment is worthwhile at the guard spot remains to be seen. They’re a hard team to read. They’ll have approximately $8m more than Seattle’s estimated $40m to spend in 2017 so money isn’t an issue. Their unwillingness to splash it around might be.
Zeitler is a former college team mate of Russell Wilson. This insightful recent piece by MMQB.com spoke to all of the former Wisconsin lineman during Wilson’s season with the Badgers. Here’s Zeitler’s impression of Seattle’s QB:
“I think he could be president of the United States if he wanted to be. That goes back to how he handled himself, his presence.”
Wilson could be an X-factor in recruiting Zeitler if he reaches free agency (and the Seahawks wanted to make a move like this).
How good is he? One of the best in the NFL at his position. This breakdown of his performance vs Pittsburgh is worth a read if you want to find out more.
This would be a powerplay move. Seattle’s biggest free agent acquisition since 2011 in terms of finances. Here are the top five highest paid guards in the NFL according to average salary:
Kelechi Osemele: $11.7m
David DeCastro: $10m
Kyle Long: $10m
Brandon Brooks: $8m
Mike Iupati: $8m
Osemele and Brooks were both free agents in 2016 and joined new teams. So you’re looking at a contract that fits somewhere between the two ($8-12m). Zeitler should be able to generate a deal worth $10m a year.
If the Seahawks signed him on that type of contract, only Russell Wilson, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas would be earning more (unless Michael Bennett and/or Kam Chancellor top the $10m mark if/when they get new deals).
They can afford it, with nearly $40m to spend. But would they be willing to spend that much on a guard from another club?
On the one hand, Zeitler only turns 27 in March so he’s hitting his peak. The Seahawks paying for a player entering his prime isn’t unrealistic. He doesn’t, however, have a particularly stunning physical profile. His arm length is 32 3/4 inches (short). He didn’t top a 9-0 in the broad (8-5) or a 30 inch vertical (29 inches) at the combine. So is he just a gritty, talented player capable of playing for years — or will he hit a wall sooner than other players? I haven’t studied him enough to know the answer to that.
He will be the best O-liner on the market if he reaches free agency. The Seahawks, perhaps feeling like they need an injection of experienced talent there, could be aggressive. It could also create a scenario where they move Germain Ifedi to right tackle, possibly filling another need on the outside.
Ronald Leary (G, Dallas)
The Cowboys clearly wanted to push La’el Collins into a starting role, yet injuries put paid to that plan. Leary has filled in again on a restricted free agent contract and delivered.
The question is, how talented is Leary? Does he do a good job next to three first round picks, three of the best in the league (Smith, Martin and Frederick)? Or is he just as important to Dallas’ success up front?
It’s highly unlikely he remains with the Cowboys in 2017. In a mailbag session on the Cowboys official website, the subject was discussed. A fan suggested they should re-sign Leary. Here are the two responses:
Bryan: I agree with you about Ronald Leary and the way that he has played. I also agree with you about signing Zack Martin long-term, but I don’t see that with Leary — especially with La’el Collins waiting. They had a chance to re-sign Leary in the offseason to a deal and they didn’t do it — that tells me all that I needed to know about that situation. They are going to ride this out with Leary and work with Collins next season.
David: These are the limitations of the salary cap era. The Cowboys are likely going to be paying top dollar to Tyron Smith, Travis Frederick and Zack Martin. Can they really afford to give another big-money contract to Ron Leary? I doubt it. Not with La’el Collins as a younger and cheaper option. Leary has been drastically underpaid since 2014, and he’s going to want to maximize his value this spring. I don’t blame him one bit, and I don’t think the Cowboys do either.
Leary was an undrafted free agent out of Memphis in 2012. The reason he wasn’t picked? It was discovered he had a degenerative left knee condition called osteochondritis dissecans. It could shorten his career — and for that reason he might not cash in during free agency. He might end up signing a shorter, more modest contract than Zeitler or Warmack.
He’s 6-3 and 320lbs and turns 28 at the end of April. Alex Boone, a free agent this year at the age of 29, signed a contract worth $6.7m a year on average with the Vikings. That could be the kind of range Leary is looking at as a free agent. J.R. Sweezy’s contract is worth $6.5m a year.
There’s more of a mystery to Leary (can he excel without the rest of Dallas’ O-line, how healthy is the knee?) so that could impact his value. Teams will look to mimic the Cowboys O-line given their record this year — so Leary could be in demand.
What about lower down the market?
The Seahawks have identified fits in the past, with mixed results. Breno Giacomini wasn’t a big name when he moved to Seattle but since he departed, it’s been a game of musical chairs at the position. Paul McQuistan was a reliable figure at guard or tackle. Yet the additions this year — Bradley Sowell and J’Marcus Webb — have not performed as well.
It stands to reason they might go shopping for a bargain veteran or two to add to the competition.
What about offensive tackles?
It’s hard to get excited about the free agent options. Matt Kalil has been a flop in Minnesota — but Pete Carroll recruited him and knows his game well. Detroit drafted Taylor Decker because they weren’t satisfied with Riley Reiff’s play at left tackle. Andrew Whitworth is playing well but he’s 35.
Sebastien Vollmer, it has been suggested, might retire at the end of the season. Menelik Watson could be an option as could another former team mate of Russell Wilson’s at Wisconsin — Baltimore’s Ricky Wagner. Watson and Wagner are both, however, the type of solid but unspectaular player you appreciate on a rookie contract. Are you willing to pay either millions as a free agent?
What about the draft?
The problem with relying on the draft is you’re just adding more inexperience to the line. And because the Seahawks can pick no lower than 21st overall, there’s a strong chance they won’t be able to pick a really talented player anyway.
Garett Bolles is the best bet. A player who will be 25 in May, has a supreme physical skill set and looks exceptional on tape. His nasty demeanour, talent, athleticism and attitude would be an ideal early pick for this team.
I suspect, unfortunately, he’ll end up going in the top-20 if he declares. A team like Denver, having missed out on the playoffs, would be a good landing spot for Bolles. He could end up rising into the top-10.
Ryan Ramcyzk is being highly touted by many and could also go early.
The options beyond round one are not unfavourable. At guard you’ve got Dorian Johnson, Dan Feeney, Forrest Lamp and Damien Mama. At tackle you’ve got Adam Bisnowaty, Chad Wheeler, Dion Dawkins and Taylor Moton — four players who could all kick inside too. I’m yet to watch Troy’s Antonio Garcia or Mississippi State’s Martinas Rankin — two players highly rated by Tony Pauline’s sources.
What might be the ideal situation?
A combination of draft and free agency.
Maybe you go for experience and try and make a couple of splashes? There is something appealing, I suppose, about the idea of two of Russell Wilson’s college linemen rejoining him in Seattle (Zeitler and Wagner). If you can follow that up by drafting someone like Garett Bolles — the line would be getting two proven veterans and college football’s best offensive tackle. It just seems increasingly unlikely that Bolles will be available for Seattle.
If they believe in Fant or if Bolles isn’t there, it could be a case of adding some competition in the third round range (Wheeler? Bisnowaty?). That would enable them to look at other positions in round one — such as D-line or…
What about running back?
This is a difficult one — and a topic that will divide opinion between fans. In the last 12 months both Thomas Rawls and C.J. Prosise have been dynamic, exciting… and injured. You don’t want to give up on either or write them off. Yet you equally want more from the position.
The Seahawks offense has never had a dominant O-line during the Russell Wilson era. They have had a dominant running game though. We all knew life after Marshawn Lynch would be difficult. It still feels like they’re trying to work out the plan moving forward.
Unfortunately they might never be able to rely on Rawls and Prosise to carry the load. You might need to limit their snaps, manage their workloads and keep them healthy. They can still have a vital role on the offense — but do they need a bell cow runner in 2017?
Probably.
Finding a great running back isn’t easy. There aren’t many in the league — and it’s quite an unpredictable position overall. For every Zeke Elliott there’s a Trent Richardson. Yet the top five backs in 2016 were all taken between rounds 1-3:
Ezekiel Elliott — round one
Le’Veon Bell — round two
DeMarco Murray — round three
LeSean McCoy — round two
David Johnson — round three
Melvin Gordon was on pace to be among this group too before his injury — he was also a first round pick.
Plus Marshawn Lynch, the man they’ve had to replace, is a former #12 overall pick. And let’s not forget Adrian Peterson either, a #7 overall pick back in the day.
The Seahawks probably need to keep adding talent until they find a guy they can lean on. And that means considering another pick in the first three rounds at this position.
And the options are…?
Several backs aren’t turning pro, including Royce Freeman, Elijah Hood and Nick Chubb. It’s cut the depth overall and could bump other players up a round.
Clearly the top two are Leonard Fournette and Dalvin Cook. I can imagine the Seahawks liking both. Fournette for his unreal combination of physicality, size, athleticism and attitude. He’s pretty much the ideal back for this situation in Seattle. Cook is more of a Jamaal Charles type but he’s an explosive playmaker.
Both will probably be out of reach. Yet if the Seahawks want to be bold and aggressive, who knows? Certainly if they end up picking 21st or 22nd it’d be easier to pull off an Atlanta/Julio Jones type move compared to picking between #29-32.
D’Onta Foreman could go in round one or he could go in round three. I’m still undecided on how good he is. Foreman’s ability to run away from defenders or bounce runs outside and explode is impressive for his size. His combine performance will be fascinating. Yet he doesn’t necessarily make the most of his size either. He’s not a monster like Fournette.
Christian McCaffrey is a wonderful player to watch. An exciting playmaker. But is he the type of back Seattle needs right now?
Samaje Perine is a good athlete for his size. He’s better than D’Onta Foreman running up the middle but Foreman is better at turning the corner and bouncing outside. Perine’s awful with the media, he’s constantly in a bad mood. Some people will like that. He could be an option in rounds two or three.
Boise State’s Jeremy McNichols and BYU’s Jamaal Williams could be two names to watch. There are others too — but these are the players perhaps most likely to go in the first three rounds.
Let’s also include free agency and trades in this situation. They might regret not doing more than dipping their toe in the water for DeMarco Murray last year.
Le’Veon Bell will likely stay in Pittsburgh one way or another — possibly on the franchise tag. Yet at the moment he is set to be a free agent and would interest a ton of teams.
Eddie Lacy has health and weight issues — but he too will be a free agent.
Will New Orleans consider dealing Mark Ingram? Or Carolina Jonathan Stewart?
There aren’t many appealing big names likely to be on the trade block, unlike last year with Murray. And unless Bell somehow reaches the market — all signs point to the draft for the Seahawks.
How important is this?
This a team that puts such a focus on the run game being integral to their identity. It is more important to them than it is to a lot of other teams. Settling just isn’t an option, especially with the meagre production in 2016.
Whatever happens during the rest of this season — this feels like an area they will focus on hard during the off-season. O-line, running back. They cannot have a repeat of this year.
Brian Hill would be my mid round option. He jumped to 349 carries this season and held up well. Hill fits the mold and probably allows higher round picks on o-line, d-line & other needs.
I think its of massive importance to Seattle–especially to Carrol–to fix the run game and return this team to a smash-mouth, bullying identity. And I think they HAVE to be aggressive. They’ve spent too much draft capital and time trying to fix the line, and Wilson is getting destroyed. They cannot continue on this way and stay a cohesive team.
My hope is they explore FA and actually sign at least one and maybe two players on the O-line. A couple other questions that also need answering before doing a deal with any FA’s are How well will they play in our system? and How well will the player hold up physically in that system? My hope would be for Zeitler. I dont give a flying poop what his measurables are, they guy has proven he can play at a higher level than anyone on Seattle’s line this year–the question is, Can he replicate his success or come close in our system? And how much are we willing to spend on a guy like him?
Warmack is intriguing, he’s played well at times, but if he’s struggling there how can he be expected to play better in Cable’s complicated and physically demanding ZBS?
Leary is worth looking at–he’s flaming PISSED at the Cowboys. But can he play well here AND hold up? And if I were him, I’d be taking the biggest contract I could get, even if it was in Cleveland…so he may command far too much money.
The thing is, whatever changes to his system Cable made this year, they arent working with this particular group of players. Glowinsky, who came in and looked good from Mini Camp his rookie year at RG, gained weight to try to move to LG and it appears to be ruining him. He’s flat failing and flailing at LG this year, looking overmatched physically and his athleticism seems to have disappeared along with the 10-15 lbs he gained. Ifedi sucks at RG for the most part, and seems miscast there.
If we keep Cable–and Im more than ready to see him canned–then I think Seattle needs to try several things: 1) Sign a competent G and possibly a T in FA, 2) Draft another prospect for the OL and 3) Shuffle guys AGAIN; Glowinsky needs to drop weight to get his athleticism back and move to RG, which would suggest Cable going back to his ZBS of years past and putting his pulling G there. Ifedi needs to be moved to RT, and a new LG brought in in FA. A T who has been close to middling rather than the hot garbage Sowell and Webb were in previous years there to compete with Ifedi at RT and/or Fant at LT would be a wise move as well.
Britt is the only sure thing, he can play C period. He may not be a Pro Bowler, but he’s middle of the pack at least and thats plenty good enough. Odhiambo is a piece worth keeping around and seeing where he fits in. But you still need to sign at least one sure-fire starter caliber G and perferably a T as well.
And it woudlnt hurt my feelings any to see Cable shit-canned for lack of performance IF we can find a halfway decent OL Coach who can either successfully modify the ZBS for todays NFL or move to a more power-blocking scheme while still utilizing most of the guys we have.
Despite the lines horrid performance this year, I still think Glowinsky can be a quality starter if he drops weight and is used more as a pulling G, Ifedi will do better at RT, and Odhiambo will find a spot to claim next year. Fant is worth keeping as a backup and competitor for time, but there is no way in hell he should be starting at LT even next year.
I have to say I agree with almost everything you post here.
Ideal situation for me to fix run game in a perfect world.
Priority #1 Switch to Power run scheme.
Priority #2 Free Agnecy
-Sign Zeitler 4 years $40 mil with 28 guaranteed /$8mil cap hit year #1
-Sign Breno to veteran low level deal like Sowell this year and bring him in not as a starter but a leader in the OL room to bring some toughness and attitude to this group
-Extend Britt to a 3-4 year deal
Even with these 3 signings we would have one of the cheapest OLs in the league.
Priority #3 Switch Ifedi to RT
Priority #4 Draft Bolles in Rd #1 if he is there to play LT and give Fant time to develop in a reserve role
Priority #5 Draft Perrine in Rd #3 as a big power back to compliment Rawls and Prosise and help them say healthy.
2017 OL
Bolles, Glowinski. Britt, Zeitler, Ifedit / Reserves (Rees, Fant, Breno)
2017 RBs
Perrine, Rawls, Prosise, FB
Sign me up for Bolles + Zeitler. Could be two massive upgrades over 2 of the worst starting OL’s in the league (Fant & Gilliam/Sowell).
Unless they sack Cable, the ZBS is here to stay. They may use more man/power concepts than they do now by adding guys like Bolles & Zeitler, but the team will remain a ZBS team at it’s core as long as Cable coaches the OL.
I like that line Trevor. Does Zeigler play RG? It would be nice to put Glow back to RG and have Zeigler at LG. Either way you put it I think it’s time to throw some dough there and let’s get after it. May e even have Odhiambo compete with Glow and let the best man win.
As for RB’s, they need to find someone with more speed than Collins, who isnt made of glass like Prosise and Rawls. But they could have Earl Campbell and Marcus Allen in their prime and unless they fix the line, it wont do them much good.
Im excited to see what Prosise and Pope can do if they can ever get healthy, but we still need to draft a guy.
Fantastic write-up, Rob. I especially like your point about how all the elements of this team are connected. That is a Carrol philosophical staple. And the ability to run the ball is at the core of that connective web. It’s shocking that the team wrapped up the division so early without a consistent core skill.
I’m not sure which route they go, but I’m leaning toward a reliable veteran leader lineman who can help with accountability and teaching. Someone who can and will start from the moment he signs. Sure, add draft competition, but acquiring a guard and (maybe a left guard and moving Glow back to right guard) and having Ifedi, Gilliam, Odhiambo battle for right tackle and backup slots provides more experience and enough continuity for success. They may not need to be dominant but this season is showing they do need to be consistently competent.
I don’t think Odhiambo is a right side of the line guy. LG or LT.
Yes, I have heard that too, now that tou mention it.
He’s said it himself that he prefers playing on the left side, and Carroll, it think, has also mentioned that. I suspect there’s a chance he should be competing for a starting spot at either LG or LT next year, and that this year he’s been essentially red shirting.
I’d love to add a veteran like Zeitler or Wagner, but would Seattle shell out the money for FA’s that aren’t natural ZBS linemen? It would be a huge change in tactics for a team that sticks to a fairly consistent formula building it’s roster.
Change might be needed.
No one wants to change this OL more than I do lol. It’s just tough to envision the law firm of Carroll & Cable changing that drastically.
i think they have to adapt to scheme to the reality of new blocking rules and players that are available, but i don’t see Cable as a compromise kind of guy. And I wonder how the whole Cable handles the running plays and Bevel handles the passing offence really works. Does any other team do that? Is that part of the problem? If part of the problems are Bevel and Cable, my guess is Cable takes a greater share of the blame. Just a guess. But if the players are not improving, then coaching has to be part of the problem. But I also see Carroll as very loyal to his coaches, so I would not count on a change.
Bevell had interest as a HC from Buffalo. They could try to nab him. I would hate that–I’d give them Cable and a draft pick to keep him, no matter how much his horizontal offense pisses me off at times lol!
That right there is all the proof anyone should need that Seattle has to do something to fix this line, once and for all. Rob is a great guy, but he’s cautious and careful about assigning blame for lack of performance on the line (probably rightly so), and has steadfastly stood by Carrol and Bevell and Cable for years.
If he says it may be time for a change, it IS.
Yes, they absolutely need another RB. Thing is, there just isn’t any ‘sure fire’ lead backs this year outside of Fournette and Cook. Could Cook fall due to his off-field incident and injuries?
While they’ll reach to fill a position of need, I don’t beleive they’ll fight the board.
I really like RB Jeremy McNichols. Has that Rawls esque size, Prosise type of receiving skills, and we know how much they love big-time production.
And while it would be great to find that big, punishing back, you can still be a physically imposing by running the ball. I wouldn’t exactly call LeSean McCoy a bruiser, but yet Buffalo runs the ball down teams throats.
Also, Miami, Tennessee, Atlanta seem to be doing the RBBC right. If that guy isn’t there, he isn’t there.
With more holes than ever before in the Russell Wilson era, the Hawks may need to maximize value like they did in the 2010 – 2012 drafts, to remain a dominant franchise for several more years.
Going RB early in the draft would be a luxury pick, with Rawls and Prosise already rostered cheaply. Unless they fall in love with an RB, they’ll probably wait until round 3 or 4 for their target.
Nothing that helps Seattle re-establish their running game should be considered a ‘luxury pick’ at this point.
1. Take a player at a position that is already stocked with decent talent.
2. Sacrifice greater needs, especially at positions where a big upgrade could be more impactful to the running game (OT, OL in general).
Sounds like a luxury pick to me.
P.S. The pass game isn’t great either, with the lack of adequate pass protection. Going with the position of greater need kills two birds – running game and pass protection.
Drafting a running back in the first three rounds will not be a luxury.
of course not in round 3 lol, that’s what I said 2 posts above…
The luxury would be spending a R1 pick at their regular draft spot or especially via a trade up.
I’ll just say it again. Anything that helps Seattle rebuild their running game in 2017 will not be a luxury pick.
We just drafted Prosise and Collins last year, Rawls had an amazing rookie season last year too. Drafting another rb round 1 in this passing league is probably a luxury for the Seahawks.
Not if the identity of Seattle’s offense is the run game. I’m not sure Pete Carroll wants to fully join that passing league. They are passing out of necessity this year, and while RW’s #s are respectable in yards, his TDs are down, and INTs are up. A running game helps the pass game. It’s all connected, as Rod said. If Foreman has a good combine, I wouldn’t be shocked if Seattle took him with their first pick. Rawls and Prosise are talented, but talent only goes so far if you can’t stay healthy enough to stay on the field.
The offense can’t have an identity if you can’t block. Everything starts in the trenches in the NFL, and the Seahawks get dominated up front almost every game. Not just beat – they get dominated. Prime Beast Mode would struggle to get to 4.0 yards per carry behind this line.
i would keep in mind that Alex Collins was getting 4 yards a carry when he got in the game against the Cardinals with this same line. Not saying Seattle doesn’t need to upgrade there, it’s pretty obvious they do, what I am saying is that the probably also need a reliable, talented, every down work horse back.
Collins is averaging 2.9 ypc this season and did his ‘damage’ against a team giving more cushion at the LOS to protect a lead.
You can have a strong running game with a rotation of solid backs. Given that Seattle already has 2 decent RB’s, and more significant needs at other positions, it could be unwise to use the resources necessary to land a workhorse pro-bowl RB. That’s what I’d call a luxury.
We can agree to disagree. Carroll spent some time today in his press conference commenting of the lack of durability they experienced at running back this year, and how fortunate the team was in having a mostly healthy runner in Lynch. My hunch is that RB is probably going to be a target again.
‘Passing league’
Dallas disagrees.
If and only if the talent is there at the position of need.
Sure, I wouldn’t expect Seattle to take a QB in rounds 1-3 under almost any circumstances. But, you start chasing the board and thumbing your nose at talent you end up without much talent.
Say what you will about Cable, he’s right about one thing. The O-line talent coming out of college right now is hilariously inferior to the D-line talent. So even though SEA has allocated more draft capital to the offensive line than DAL since they built that line, SEA has mostly had lower selections in rounds 1-3. Well, outside the top half of the first round it is VERY difficult to find plug-and-play offensive linemen — not even then.
Well-said – the talent has to be there. There were plenty of plug-and-play offensive lineman that have played solidly or better as rookies this season: Tunsil, Conklin, Stanley, Decker, Whitehair, Thuney, Kelly.
Others have shown flashes – winning a starting role – but failing to make a positive impact as a rookie.
The O-Line isn’t just a short term issue, as the long term potential of the current group is highly questionable. Even if a high pick isn’t an immediate pro-bowl level player, the Hawks need to continue investing to solve the blocking problem.
Is the talent there in this draft class for a day 1-2 O-Lineman to make an immediate impact. Maybe, but they’ll have to pick the right guy. Same as any draft pick.
IMO Prosise works better out of the shotgun, zone read looks.
Rawls is better lined up behind RW under center. Rawls isn’t patient enough to let his blocks develop. He tries to get a 50 yarder, for example, on every run. He doesn’t have to do that.
Christian McCaffrey would be an immediate improvement to both the running game and to receiving. There are options!
I agree. Some of the Jr’s returning to school hurt the overall depth, but still a really good class for RB’s.
The more I thinks about McCaffrey the more I start to convince myself Seattle would totally draft him.
I’m not sure Pete is interested in a guy who decided to skip out on his last game. Goes against the always compete mantra.
Possibly, but would he also not be interested in Fournette? I kinda think he would if he thought that talent was special.
I actually heard a rumor that LSU wanted Fournette gone. They thought he checked out in September apparently.
Gil Brandts son said there’s more to this story. Let’s see if any of it is true.
Wow. This is really interesting.
Apparently Ryan Ramczyk is no sure thing to enter the draft this year. He’s still debating having shoulder surgery, which could affect his draft decision. Not only would his withdrawal take away one of the few top end OT talents available, but it could drive up the price for guys like Bolles, Robinson, Lamp and Rankin.
It ain’t going to be easy to fix this OL.
I like Rankins a lot. Not sure if he has the physicality Seattle may desire in their RT, I do think he could play there, but he definetly could play LT. Very raw, but an exciting skill set.
Haven’t watched him yet, but consistently hearing good things. One potential knock Pauline mentioned was his measurables. Does he lack length?
I mean he doesn’t appear to have vines for arms, but they don’t look like t-rex arms either.
Thanks again, Rob, for the thoughtful work. When you say Menelik Watson and Ricky Wagner are solid but unspectacular, wouldn’t that be a welcome upgrade at either tackle spot, and therefore worth a look? If the big OL free agent signing is Zeitler or even Leary, wouldn’t we need at least one free agent tackle that can actually play the position consistently at a pro level? OL consistency hasn’t been one of Carroll’s hallmarks. At this point free agent guard and tackle, and a couple more in the draft seem likely, if not necessary at this point, in order to get some roster churn/competition.
And I admit I laughed when I read that Paul McQuistan was a reliable figure at guard or tackle. Who would have guessed that we would look back fondly or the golden McQ era?
“When you say Menelik Watson and Ricky Wagner are solid but unspectacular, wouldn’t that be a welcome upgrade at either tackle spot, and therefore worth a look?”
Possibly — but it depends on the cost. You don’t really want to pay $6.5m a year for that type of player.
No, of course that would be too much. But the FO isn’t likely (I hope) to guaranteed-money overpay like that. Maybe the Webb contract is a good comparison? In 2015, 2 years at $3.45 base and $1.2M signing with $2.45M guaranteed. That’s probably a little light for 2017-21. DJ Humphries is getting about $2.2M a year total out of the Cardinals, Ja’Wuan James a little less from Miami–that looks like the right size number.
Something along those lines would help take pressure off of either keeping our fingers crossed that Gilliam/Sowell get much better, or drafting a tackle to take over from Gilliam/Sowell on the right side. IMHO, the player who will take that spot is either Ifedi or not on the roster. Personally I prefer Wagner over Watson, but that’s mainly because of Watson’s torn achilles. Any late mid to round RTs catch your eye?
Bisnowaty, Wheeler — two I think could be interesting.
Avery Gennesy I think could be worth a look at RT at maybe 3rd or 4th round. He played with Ifedi on A&M.
Rob,
What do you make of our RGs of the past always being the smaller/quicker players (Sweezy) and the left guard always being the big guys? And then we went total reversal this year in terms of our LG being the smaller of the two (although Glowinski did bulk up to play LG)?
Projecting forward, what do you think will happen with the guards in 2017? They have proven they will do what they haven’t done and surprise us to at least a degree. I don’t know what to think there anymore.
Also, I saw impressive foot speed from Ifedi in college, but I don’t see foot speed from him at all with the Hawks. Part of me what’s to say that he needs to play RT to use his quick feet better, another part says that, unfortunately, he looks like a bust.
However, how fair is it to judge every Seahawks OL individually when every player on the OL is playing next to players who aren’t very good? What would each guard look like if they had good players on each side of them? Or what would the tackles looks like if they had a good guard next to them?
Right now, the guards have a decent center and terrible tackle next to them. The tackles have terrible guards next to them. Nobody is really being put into a position to be successful on this line because everyone else is so bad.
My personal opinion: I think Glowinski would be a good player if he played next to a decent tackle. And I think Ifedi is best suited to play RT.
Based on previous Seahawks history, until this past season, I think our best right side would be Glowinski at RG and Ifedi at RT. The “big splash” signing (or trade) would be to get a veteran LG).
I can’t help but think that if Fant is playing as well as he has (and I realize he’s sucked by NFL standards this year) that he’s actually a guy I’m not as worried about heading into ’17. He will have had a year of experience and can go into an off-season knowing what’s going on on the football field for the first time. And putting a veteran next to him would be huge, imo.
All I know is that they need a decent veteran to help this unit. They will still be so young next year, too. I don’t like the idea of adding a rookie to a bunch of youngsters. They will have no choice though if they don’t acquire an OL via trade or FA.
I was thinking they may think outside the box and offer a 2nd round pick in this window for a guy like Lane Johnson. I’m not saying him specifically, just someone who is proven to be good that they can get for a decent pick. Think Chandler Jones trade.
Great write-up, so much to think about.
I’m not sure why they moved Glow to LG and had Ifedi at RG. It might just be because Ifedi is more comfortable on the right.
An interesting piece about him from his bio page on the Bengals website:
“Veteran Bengals OL boss Paul Alexander calls Zeitler “the hardest-working guy I’ve ever coached.””
That sounds like the type of player we know the Hawks love.
If he played RG, that would really help out Ifedi at RT, as Ifedi could play next to a veteran and a good player. If that’s the only position that changed for next year, I don’t think that would be a bad thing because Britt is fine and Glowinski/Fant would have a full year of all working together on that side.
Of all the guys on the Seahawks OL – I think I like Glowinski the best moving forward. Just beats Britt. Biggest upside belongs to Fant. Ifedi scares me, although I really thought he’d be special in preseason.
Ive been thinking (and saying) some of the same things about the line, and asking myself the same questions Bobbyk. You just put it far better than I did lol!
I think Glowinsky needs to drop a few pounds and go back to being a pulling G–whether thats the LG or RG position. I also would like to see Ifedi at RT and someone solid at one G position–Zeitler would be great. I also want competition for Fant at LT and Glowinsky at G.
Depending on how they tweak the line (back to athletic pulling RG, or??) this next year, we may see a ton of changes, or not much. But something has to give…
I think that’s exactly right. They wanted Ifedi to stay on the side of the line where he was most used to playing.
Move Glowinski back to right guard, Odihambo at left guard, Britt stays at center, and Ifedi to right tackle. That leaves left tackle to fill. If odihambo doesn’t work at left guard, fill in with Hint or Fant. And pray Ifedi regains his college mojo at right tackle.
I meant to say Hunt or Fant.
Hunt is too small to play G. Heck, he’s small for C. But he is a C and only a C.
Zeitler and Kalil would work for me. 1 expensive, 1 probably on the low side.
Kalil/Zeitler/Britt/Glow/Ifedi
Get Lacy on the low with incentive laden contract. Get Foreman in the 2nd (what bout maybe trading a 2nd to Titans for Henry?)
Lacy/Foreman/Rawls/Prosise
With Lockette probably done career wise, or at least 2017, maybe they should think about moving Prosise to WR.
Lockett (no E) will be back.
I like that Switzer cat from NC. Seems like thed type of WR Seattle would be interested in. He just moves at a different speed. Explodes off the LOS.
I hope so. Im praying he comes back, and at 100%. Really still sick to my stomach about him….
I think I really like the option of grabbing a good quality guy like Zeitler sounda very intriguing and also adding a more mid level guy as well. Not only will it help for talent but you can have a leader in the film room as well which can be just as important.
I would throw Larry Warford’s name out there as another free agent to look at. The free agent deals of Osemele and Brooks raised a lot of eyebrows when done. “You paid how much for an interior lineman?” Turns out they were worth every penny. Maybe going all in on a guy like Zeitler is the way to go. At the very least it takes a little bit of pressure off the team come draft time.
I didn’t realize Warford was a UFA too. He’s another man/power blocker who’s a poor fit on paper for a zone blocking scheme, but also much more productive than what we have currently at guard.
Will PC, TC, & JS change it up and make moves in free agency on the OL? and if so, will they target good players like Zeitler, Wagner & Warford who aren’t good fits in the current scheme?
Free agency will have a huge effect on how the Hawks approach the O-Line in the draft. Hopefully they do more than last year this time around.
Are Kalen Ballage and Joe Mixon not considerations for you, Rob?
Joe Mixon a returning for his senior year I think
Mixon not turning pro… I’ve seen things I like about Ballage and I really like his character — but as ASU’s season tailed off, so did his year seemingly.
Hi Rob
You got anything on De’veon Smith RB Michigan. Draft gurus saying he is the best back in pass pro in the draft 5’11 228 I bet he runs in the mid 4.5 range. I think Pauline has him 5RD. Harbaugh using multiple backs this year.
Not been blown away by him when watching Michigan — but haven’t focused on him specifically yet either.
Jamaal Williams has been the best pass protector from the tailback spot to my eye
Alex Collins is an excellent blocker.
I have to be honest…I have ZERO faith in this FO spending any more draft capital on the OL. I think Free Agency, despite the expense, needs to be the answer. If we sign someone who has a 4 year NFL track record of even average play, and they come to Seattle and can’t perform; then we know Cable is the weak link. Yes, Justin Britt has been a nice player…this year…after being an unmitigated train wreck at 2 other spots on the OL. This feels like a fluke success, not something that was planned.
Again though, I can’t reiterate strongly enough how little faith I have in this FO to acquire OL talent via the draft. I hate to pick on Ifedi, but he’s a 1st round interior OL, who can barely function. I’d rather trust the FO to spend premium capital on other positions, and honestly, blow their wad in Free Agency and from R5-7 and see if you can hit one. Otherwise, I cannot stomach high draft picks on barely functioning OL. We can no longer afford to keep missing in the Draft, which feels more like the norm, considering the past few years.
I really don’t understand how Jahri Evans can look like crap for Cable in the preseason but then go back to New Orleans and have a good year. There are only three reasons and it could be a combination of all of them:
1. Coaching
2. He is surrounded by better players (Unger is better than Britt and Peat is better than our revolving door at RT)
3. Scheme fit
Regardless, he did not look good in Seattle this preseason and he has been good for the Saints. Something is wrong when we take good players and make them look bad. I realize scheme fit could be a reason and if it is then why’d we even go there if we know he can’t play for us.
One thing I am sick and tired of hearing from the Seahawks is how continuity is so important and we never give anyone a chance to get there. Carroll said it last year about how we can’t wait so long into training camp to decide on a line or it would end up costing us games like last year.
It’s gotta be scheme.
Evans came in out of shape and was always going to be a veteran body for us.
Agree with both vrt and Kenny. We did NO’s work for them–got Evans into near-game-shape, then cut him because we didnt want to guarantee his full salary. Which looks really stupid now, considering Ifedi immediately got hurt and we paid Webb 2.45 million for sucking for three weeks then riding the pine awhile before getting cut…
Hindsight is 20/20, but cutting Evans looked stupid at the time.
Maybe because we had already invested in Webb we felt compelled to roll with him despite Jahri actually playing preseason ball for us.
It’s like Webb thought he would sit back and coast to a title with us.
I completely get what you mean Matt – it’s just so frustrating dealing with the state of this offensive line. IMO, Russell Wilson is as good as any QB in the NFL (including Rodgers & Brady), and the Hawks have limited his impact by having a bad pass-protecting OL in every season of his career. This season is obviously the worst it’s been, and the protection + injuries have taken its toll on him and therefore the offense.
I want to believe in Ifedi, but he’s been god-awful in pass protection this year, and is so inconsistent snap-to-snap. I don’t want to pick on him either, but there’s a scenario where he doesn’t really improve (a la Greg Robinson).
This scheme is just so demanding – not every player can just fit in. We saw that with Evans this preseason, who’s been more productive for the Saints this year than any Hawks OL (besides maybe Britt).
More investment is needed. If they draft OL early on, it has to be player(s) who were great in college. Ifedi showed flashes in college but wasn’t dominant at that level. I want a guy who killed it in college, like Ramczyk, Bolles, or Lamp. They can’t afford another project who needs significant development.
I think Britt is a success story. He was considered a massive reach in the 2nd round by everybody, so we shouldn’t judge him by that standard. That he’s switched to Center and become a good player is huge.
I am for changing the offensive line scheme, but I don’t think Pete will. I feel this way mostly because what else can Cable coach? I don’t think he’s done a power run before. I tossed around the idea of supporting Wilson throwing 30-35+ times a game by building a pass protecting line around him, but Cable has never fielded a pass blocking unit that was even close to average. As long as he’s here, it’s going to be a bullying, ZBS unit.
Agree 100%
right now is it a NON bullying ZBS unit and a turnstile on pass protection
Rob any thoughts on Baylor WR KD Cannon? He’s lighting up Boise State right now.
I’m digging Baylor S Orion Stewart. Kid has length foir days, phenomenal goal line defender, great backside pursuit speed too.
He’s gonna be a borderline 1st rounder. Cannon that is. He’ll be a big time riser during the draft process.
The Browns just waived guard Johnathon Cooper. He’s been playing well for them the last 3 weeks, so it seems like an odd decision, although he is coming to the end of his rookie contract I think. Maybe they didn’t want to extend him and didn’t see the point of playing him over some of their younger players. Sounds like Shon Coleman (who got talked about here a lot before the draft) may get an opportunity against the Steelers.
Any chance we kick the tires on Cooper? Isn’t he a former 1st rounder?
He’s got extreme physical ability but most of his career has been a huge disappointment. Arians in particular has been vocal about him being lazy, but then again which player does Arians not rip on?
That might just work.
Love a reclamation project and I think he’s an athlete.
Cooper and Ifedi right side would look pretty mean.
Cooper has played for three teams already in his career. Just because he was a former first-round pick doesn’t mean he’s any good. The Browns have a bad line this year outside of Joe Thomas and even they don’t want him.
Pass. Top 10 pick who has already been passed around.
Nothing wrong with kickin’ the tires, V!
Surprised you’re not more enthused. Sounds like a low risk, high reward scenario.
Nobody wanted Jahri this year, but we brought him in.
Yeah, then we can hear 12’s b***h and moan about the signing of a guy that doesn’t fit the scheme, blah blah and blah. You know what I mean?
Rob,
Thanks for this excellent content as always!
Your 40m number is not correct however. There are not 51 players on the spotrac “top 51”. The true cap number with a full roster is closer to 30m free. Not 40m. Discount another 6m for the usual practice squad / injured reserve, etc and it’s closer to 24m of free agency.
I’m guessing they sign a few RFA’s and a kicker as well. However the big extensions on Kam, Bennett and Jimmy should be cap neutral in 2017.
I don’t get why people are acting like this is 2015 cap wise. Not saying you are. They’ll have plenty of money to take care of a couple or few of their own, get some extensions done, and make a splash or two in FA.
The cap keeps going up, you can always do incentive laden deals, bonuses, etc., and JS has always gotten guys at a steal.
Yes, you have to account for practise squad and injured reserve etc. I believe the $40m cap number though is accurate overall.
looks like the $39 M cap space accounts for 51 players.
I would guess they will use up at least $8 M in 2017 dollars to extend Kam and MB, if that gets done.
I would think they will try to extend Graham also, but I am not sure they can. I also think MB may be pretty tough to negotiate with this time.
I think they will carry at least $6 m for IR, plus around $3 M for draft picks.
And if Britt signs an extension, he will get a contract similar to Lane, and he has a $3.25 M cap hit for 2016, so Britt would have a $3-4 M cap hit in 2017
They need a kicker as Hauska is a free agent, to resign or replace him will cost at least $3M/year
so to be realistic, maybe they have $15 M in 2017 to sign free agents.
That means maybe one good player, and 3 or 4 JAG’s, and I think they really need a better back up safety as the lack of Earl is starting to show
besides FA and draft picks, are there current rookies can can play a bigger role next year?
Vannett? Prosise? Do the rookie o linemen get better?
what about the rookie DB’s?
and forget about cutting Kearse and Lane. They have pretty big cap hit to let them go next year, and I think they have enough history with Pete that he keeps them despite their current status as whipping boys from the fan base. They will cut players despite the cap hit, but I suspect that both players do things we don’t see that Pete likes.
and a lot of teams have a lot of cap room, and then there will also be players cut on teams that need cap room (Cowboys are at $175 M already for 2017 and save very little by cutting Romo)
Hawks have less than $1 M in dead cap space for 2017, they were at $18 m in 2014, $19.6 in 2015 and $13.6 M in 2016. That is a lot of money to pay for no play. Using your cap only for players that play makes a huge difference and I think the hawks will be cautious going forward on contract structure because of that
There’s a reason only 51 are included — that’s because of the top-51 rule.
Actually it accounts for 39 players
Did you count the players listed on spotrac? It’s not 51.
if there are not 51 players listed, they probably add in players at the minimum to make it at 51
The more I read about pending offensive line free agents the more I really like Kevin Zeitler. This guy flat out doesn’t give up sacks and he is really improving year by year to become a great run blocker. Could be a perfect addition for our team, not just talent wise but class room as well. Just wonder if he would get some big time money thrown at him.
A few observations:
I know that PC always stated that it all starts with the running game and I know that Cable is a ZBS running guru. I’m not sure that Bevell subscribes to the school. Teams should evolve to match their talent base and put their players in positions to succeed. Maybe, with RW and the weapons around him, some more pass protection will yield more results than investing the farm in the running game.
Last year we practically had no cap space to invest in FA in general and OL in particular. This year we have that cap space and the only obstacle this roster faces at the prime of its championship window is OL play. Arguments like “You don’t really want to pay $6.5m a year for that type of player” are penny smart but dollar foolish. You get the best your money can buy. It may not be the best “value per talent” but it will bring the best return on investment from a team perspective.
Investing in a RB to upgrade the running game sounds like a direct solution to the running game problem. A prolific running game helps the passing game indirectly. Investing in a better OL that can also help protecting the QB helps the passing game immediately. Sign me in on that option.
When you draft a player like Ifedi, the perfect physical specimen that did not get his technique right after years of training under the Alabama program – you should expect a similar long&slow learning curve.
We see the issues with the current OL play. We do not see the little things regarding every individual player. While we can agree that this line is not becoming visibly better, only the coaches know if they see enough progress, individually and as a group, to believe that this line (or most of its members) will be much better next year with the experience they gained and another off season dedicated to improving their weaknesses.
The ZBS is supposed to be a solution to the quality of talent executing it. Gibbs famous quote states – Give me a year and I’ll turn five garbage men into an efficient ZBS OL. The team provided Cable with enough “garbage men” for him to work into a ZBS OL. Maybe it’s time to let someone else compete for the OL coaching job and let him dictate the type of players he wants.
And after all is said and done, I’d rather spend the first draft pick on pass rushing (DL/DE) than draft for the running game in the first round. Defense win championships.
“Arguments like “You don’t really want to pay $6.5m a year for that type of player” are penny smart but dollar foolish”
Completely disagree. The best way to put yourself in cap trouble and become an average team very quickly is to throw money at players that don’t warrant the contract. Paying an average player almost as much as Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril is a sure-fire way to ensure you get into trouble down the line. The Seahawks have been able to keep their core together by avoiding wasting money. Whatever happens moving forward, that policy has to remain. Buy the best, not just the guys that happen to be there.
‘Defense wins Championships’ is just a cliche. A good defense can win you a title, but not if your offense is completely discombobulated and destructive. The Seahawks won titles with a strong running game working hand in hand with a point guard QB and a good defense. There’s no reason to move away from that.
Put another pass rusher on the field this season and without the running game they’re still a 9-5-1 team.
I’m not advocating “wasting money”. I advocate allocating a resource (namely money) to improving the OL and go get the best help you can get. If you find a bargain – great, if not, you get the best you can at market price. I advocate that without FA help for this OL, Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril and Kem Chancellor will see their short championship window closing. I advocate that some of the reactions we see from Sherman is a result of a frustrated defense that feels the offense is not supporting them enough.
If the market price for a player is higher than what we think – It’s an economic fact. Calling it wasting is not a realistic evaluation. The fact that we got bargains in the past (Bennett & Avril) does not change what coul;d be the market price for offensive linemen.
Defense wins championships is not a cliché. It is the label on the current NFL champions that fielded a much worse offense than what we have today.
Put another high caliber pass rusher and we do not lose to ARI last Sunday with a 1 sack performance on immobile Palmer behind a makeshift OL. We may even win at NO with more than 2 sacks on Brees completing 27/35 passes. We may get back to generating more turnovers and win the field position game. There is no way to state that this team would not win 1-2 games more with a better pass rush and fresh pass rushers when we get to the playoffs.
You can’t force the issue though. Throwing money at middling free agents is no better than forcing the draft. You have to be smart. You mentioned spending 6.5m on players I suggested weren’t worth it. That’s not the answer and never will be.
I can’t believe people have witnessed what has happened to Seattle’s collapsed running game and OL and want to focus on other areas. Seattle’s pass rush is streaky but it was in 2013 too. The difference is they could actually run the ball. I’m not against drafting DL early but let’s get our priorities right first. If there’s a way to improve the run game in the draft early, they should consider it. Whatever it is.
I witnessed what happened to Seattle’s OL After drafting a 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder offensive linemen. For me, trying to solve this issue with new rookies is not a viable solution for 2017. The rookie we draft now may help later on but if we want a solution for next year, another Ifedi will not do it. Is our window that big that we can waste another year or two till our rookies become Britt?
You can add a talented rookie offensive lineman to a working OL. You can not count on a rookie to fix a malfunctioning OL.
So because the 2016 draft didn’t provide the answer, the draft will now never be the answer?
Come on man.
We’ve twisted the argument now to me even arguing for the OL early in the draft, a point I’ve never made. I asserted, not unfairly, that certain players are not worth $6.5m a year. And just because they happen to be ‘there’ in FA doesn’t mean Seattle should pay them inflated contracts. That would be an awful idea — and one this front office will not have.
At a much higher cost than the rookie contract of Germain “Big Old Fat Bust After Six Months” Ifedi
I agree with your take on this 100% Rob. They’ve already spent big on the D, both in cap space and Draft Capital. They’ve spent money and traded players to get Graham and Baldwin and Kearse and Wilson under contract, so they arent ignoring offense–but the line is killing any hope of a championship or a functional offense. They have to fix the problem, any way they can.
However, I dont think relying on the guys we have and another draft pick or two on the OL is a smart bet either–they need to make DAMN sure to fix the problem for the forseable future, and that means FA AND the Draft, not just the Draft.
And the main point is – If you want to get the running game help, get certifiend NFL tested OL help.
The most explosive 1st round OL rookie we got could not get 1 yard push on the 1 yard line last Saturday. The next one you pick may face the same problems in his first year.
What scared me most of drafting Ifedi was his coordination. He appeared mechanical in nature and allowed defenders in close instead using those long arms to keep them at bay.
Having him inside is probably the best thing for him. DT’s have been successful in getting pass him from time to time on a regular basis. It would be a big mistake having him on the edge, unless he’s able to settle down emotionally and use his natural attributes, his length and strength.
Is it possible maturity will aid his development? Zeitler would be a great get though. Having experience next to him could help, but there would be great growing pains for that development on the right side.
I remember John Clayton had a draft pundit on his Saturday show a week before the draft last year saying that the team that drafted Germaine Ifedi in R1 would be drafting a player who will probably end up being a bust. Pretty strong words. That’s when I started jumping on the draft Vernon Butler or Chris Jones bandwagon.
Personally, I think he’s showed signs of being a good player. I think the game. Might be in his head though.
Doug Baldwin said a very telling thing in his last post gam pressed. He said that he felt in the first half on offense, the young players lacked confidence going up against who was across from them, that they needed to realize that they are starting on this team because they are equally talented as the men across from them, and they settled in during the second because they started buying into that.
Game presser.
That is why I think a veteran OL man whom has had success is a critical get this off season to bring an element of leadership to this group. They are all young talented guys but don’t have a mentor / leader. The two guys they have with any experience are Sowell who has experience but is a journeyman, Britt struggled badly till this year.
That is why I was really hoping they would have kept Jahri Evans.
A guy like Zietler would be invaluable for this reason alone. All young players need someone to learn from. Look at how Bennett and Avril have taken Clark under their wing.
Even bringing a guy back like Breno would be a good addition just for depth and leadership. Confidence is the key in any sport at any position and this off season rebuilding it for this unit is critical.
Yeah, I tend to really agree with this, Trevor. I just don’t know how certain I feel they will do this. I was expecting that to happen last year when they elected not to retain Okung and Sweezy, and I don’t really count Sowell or Webb as being one of those veteran types.
He seems to actually lose more to stunting DE’s coming out of a 3-4
I think a move back to RT is just what the doctor ordered.
He seems to be tight with Gilliam. They can be seen on the bench during games.
People saying he has high bust potential haven’t really done their research.
He was drafted by Cable because he wouldn’t back down.
As important as TEF has been in the identification of SEA OL targets, it needs to be restated that more than measurables, Cable values intangibles.
He wants Smarts, Grit, and Athleticism. IN THAT ORDER.
He missed the first month of games.That has to be taken into account when considering his progression. Those live reps when teams are still congealing and running more vanilla schemes are invaluable to young players.
He’s had a baptism by fire facing some of the most blitz happy teams in the league.
“He’s struggling against stunts and draws!!!!”
So is practically every other young o-lineman
I am with you on Ifedi at RT. If they move to a power run scheme then maybe he can stick at RG but if not RT should be the move IMO. Let him start playing instead of thinking.
He’s really smart so I wouldn’t be surprised if the ‘in his head’ postulate holds at least a little water.
Not hard to envision a huge kid from Texas culture-shocked in Seattle.
Or a spread blocker coming to a pro zone.
I also don’t anticipate any change to the scheme.
“I can teach [this scheme] to a garbage man” -Tom Cable.
I think the big thing with Germain is he’s never seen this kind of speed from 2 gap lineman.
He was a pure guard in high school, played there his RSFreshman year and that was arguably his most impressive tape.
Didn’t switch to LT to accomodate a side-locked freshman LT at TAMU
He’s never faced insane quick twitch
5, 3, and 1 tech’s*
“People saying he has high bust potential haven’t really done their research.” – I think that’s a bit unfair.
You’ve obviously gone in-depth studying Ifedi, and the attributes you mentioned (athleticism, smarts, grit) are what give us hope that he can & will develop into a quality starting O-Lineman.
But we should also be realistic. Ifedi also fits the description of “high bust potential” perfectly.
– mediocre college tape for a first round player.
– fantastic physical profile, but severely lacking knee-bend/leverage, proper hand usage, & coordination.
– Bad rookie year performance, highlighted by being a sieve in pass protection.
Many players with that type of profile have gone on to become busts in the NFL.
I’ll never call a rookie a bust, but I recognize the long road he has ahead of him to become a competent NFL starter.
Very reasonable and astute reservations you have.
I’ve certainly cooled on Ifedi, but he is practically learning a new position.
And going to an NFL OL from a spread college scheme is almost like moving to a new sport altogether.
Poor technique isn’t really an indicator of bust-potential.
I think drive and grit is the single most career defining trait and GI isn’t lacking it.
There’s a big difference with speed on the edge than playing inside against “stunting DE & DT”. They placed him @ RG for that reason. He’s having difficulty with speed as in college and like most rookies transitioning to the NFL. Some are not able to adjust as quickly as others.
What may hinder his progression are his mechanics/technique and his emotions/maturity. There’s no question that he’s an intelligent young man. Is he “naturally” football smart/intelligent? Most of his movement appear mechanical in nature rather than reacting to the defender opposing him.
Cable had issues with Tubin’ “stomping snakes” running style as being wasted movement. Ifedi has the tendency to work hard at his PPro with a lot of movement and that may not correspond to what he’s up against. Emotions may be a factor that may take time for his maturation.
Putting him on the edge may in the future when he’s able slow down and react to movement rather robotically move for the sake of moving. For now, Cable has him at the right spot. Hopefully, things will slow down for him and his emotions stop getting the best of him.
I think investing money in to the line this off season is a must. How much and to whom is the question.
I think Ricky Wagner would be a great option at RT, but do you pay him around 6.5 mil that Mitchell Schwartz got? Another poster posted about bringing Breno Giacomini back at a reasonable rate. I wouldn’t mind bringing him back. He will be playing in his 31 year old season and is coming off a back injury, but if he signs for 2mil i would definitely do it to see what he has left. He would definitely bring back the toughness that this current line has missed.
Brian Winters, RG, Jets he will be 26 yo when the season starts. Drafted as a tackle and eventually moved over to RG where he blossomed as one of the better pass protectors at his position. He’s coming off rotator cuff surgery so his value may be a little lower on the open market.
What to do about Germain Ifedi? I think he showed some flashed at the beginning of they year, but he’s regressed big time. As Volume 12 pointed out he really struggles at recognizing stunts and is a step or two late at which point Russell is running for his life. I say let him sit, figure out which position he truly is a better fit at and let him redshirt.
LG – Glow is just an ok player. It seems like he doesn’t have the “anchor” to move guys, in fact he gets moved a lot. Do you give Odhiambo a chance at the spot? A guy that i am increasingly liking is Forrest Lamp. He’s currently the starting LT for W Kentucky, but will probably need to move inside because of shorter arms. I think he’s going to rise up the draft boards and be a high to mid 2nd pick which begs the question…. does Seattle hope that he will be there at their 2nd rd pick, do they package picks to move up to draft him, pick him in the 1st or trade down and pick him top of the 2nd.
LT – Fant has done an ok job at LT. I say you let him get an offseason under his belt and see how it goes.
Nice catch with Winters – he’s another solid option to consider. I’d be just fine with the Hawks giving mid-tier money to him or Wagner.
There’s no way the Hawks will sit Ifedi yet, as it would essentially point to throwing in the towel on him. I think it’s 50/50 on whether he moves out to RT or not next season.
Glow is young and cheap, but he hasn’t shown enough to be guaranteed a starting job next year. Odhiambo will compete for a spot at both LT and LG. I love Lamp 🙂 Dunno if he’ll be a Seahawks target, but he should be a top 50 pick at least.
I don’t understand how some people think Fant has done ok this year. Are we grading on a curve because he’s so inexperienced? He’s been one of the worst, if not the very worst offensive tackle in the NFL. Just because we expected an OT “off the street” to struggle, doesn’t mean that his performance has been anything but awful. Major competition is needed. Odhiambo is one, but another player (high draft pick or FA) is needed to compete at LT. The Hawks can’t afford to keep putting him out there as Cable’s new pet project, if he continues to play like trash.
I’m not sure how you can suggest that Odhiambo is legit competition for Fant when Fant has beat out a fellow rookie (Fant not drafted, Odhiambo a third rounder) and has been playing over him all year. I’m not sure how the rookie who didn’t play (and has always played OL) is going to suddenly beat out a guy who had no experience and now has a year of NFL experience at LT. Granted, Fant hasn’t started the entire season but he clearly has the most upside. Can you imagine someone who hasn’t played QB since middle school to come in and play QB in the NFL? Crazy as it sounds, LT is the second toughest position to play on offense, imo. Now, if they had a chance to sign Kalil on a one-year flyer that would be legit type of LT competition. Personally, I like Fant moving forward.
I think the ideal LT scenario would be to sign Kalil to a reasonable 1-year “prove it” contract and let him play out 2017. After having a good season, he could bolt for greener pastures and we could net a decent comp. pick in 2019 with a third-year Fant ready to take over at LT full-time.
As crazy as it sounds, Okung may be a 1-year “prove it” type guy, too (while Fant develops another year).
If Fant does go into 2017 as the starter, I won’t be disappointed though. As starters go, I am fine with 4 of our 5 current starters starting again next year. It’s just that the 5th starter needs to be legit, as in really, really good. Zeitler is a guy who is most appealing because he can legitimately claim that he’s on a short list of best guards in the NFL. And he has that work ethic and grit this team craves. It may be time to invest in someone like that because Cable is a proven liar in terms of saying he can anyone and make them a decent guard. He can’t. We’ve seen it year after year.
They’ve mostly tried Odhiambo at guard.
But Odhiambo has seen game action at LT, and held up fairly well. Carroll mentioned him favoriably today as someone they feel will factor in for a starting job next year. He was evasive as to say what position, but did offer that he is more comfortable on the left side. I think it is probably LG, and the surface, it seems like they favor Fant at LT, but part of me wonders if Odhiambo wasn’t fully healthy all through camp and into the season, and maybe not physically as ready to step in as Fant was, and with Fant’s time in there, Fant intrigued them enough to keep him in. I guess what I wonder is that in the off season, a healthy Odhiambo doesn’t make a more legit run for the starting LT job. I think there’s a reason Carroll refused to answer what potential starting position they see out of him next year.
The troubling things with Rees starting is that he was injury prone in college, too. We all want an OL that can stay healthy and compete together. If he was hurt in camp, that isn’t a surprise. If he was, then him healthy couldn’t beat out Fant. Either scenario isn’t ideal.
Yeah, health is key. I keep hearing how they had Odhiambo graded as a top 40-ish pick, though, and that they took him over players we at SDB were all pretty hyped over in McGovern, Dahl, etc. My sneaking suspicion is that if he shows really solid physical improvement in the offseason, we could see another reshuffling of the OL to find a spot for him.
I wonder the same. Carroll has also made comments about Odhiambo improving a lot as the year went along. My guess is they don’t want to change the left side during the season again and instead focus on the RT competition game-to-game.
bobbyk – “Can you imagine someone who hasn’t played QB since middle school to come in and play QB in the NFL?”
I can imagine the LT version of that, as we’ve seen it first-hand with Fant. He’s been brutal, possibly the worst offensive lineman in the NFL. It’s disappointing to me that Odi hasn’t been given a shot to replace him, as he’s looked better IMO during his admittedly limited snaps.
If Fant doesn’t improve by leaps and bounds, he has no business opening next season as the starter on any NFL roster. No Hawks fan should be okay with that level of play from any position, let alone a premium position.
Good points. My feeling with Ifedi, is that they want him to learn NFL OL football 101 on the right side where he is most comfortable, perhaps thinking if they have him between the experience of Britt and another veteran player (Gilliam/Sowell), he will settle in and build consistency. I think there could be a pretty legit reason we haven’t seen Odhiambo at RT (coupled with the fact Odhiambo is more comfortable himself on the left) in that I don’t think they want two rookies playing next to each other, each doing things they are not used to.
As for Fant, I’ve been tempering my excitement about him more and more these last few games, for sure. I think the lesson of last offseason was not getting too presumptive over who’s the answer at LT. When they chose not to bring back Okung (feeling the regret of that with each passing game), many folks felt it was automatic Gilliam would succeed replacing him because of his former TE athletic profile. I don’t think it is automatic George Fant is the starting LT next year. I just think there is a chance he is.
In hindsight I am pretty disappointed that the Seahawks ended up with Fant as a starter at left tackle. He clearly needed a year of practice and training before starting. Well now he has gotten that year of training – at the expense of the team – but who cares when there was another hot mess going on with the right tackle position? Why pick on Fant when it was even worse on the other side.
Moving forward, Seahawks still need to pick some tackles in the draft. And let there be a competition in training camp. I don’t think either position is reserved for the current crew. If they are the best of what the Seahawks got then fine – if not then let them try out at another position.
I think part of the reason is because Sowell was so horrible at LT. And he beat out Gilliam. The options were to either suck at LT with a stiff or suck there with a high-upside guy. I think they made the right call during the season, but it’s clear they made the wrong choice of who they brought in to play tackle coming into the season. When you have three bad players in 2016 for two starting tackle positions, it’s clear they failed because of how badly it has hampered the entire rest of the team.
Excellent points, Bobbby.
Lets hope they bring in at least one solid OL player in Free Agency next year. Sowell tried, but he isnt good, and Webb failed utterly.
I think everyone agrees the running game (OL and RB) and DL are the big areas of concern. How to address it is the question.
On another note Rob, you say they will $40 million next year, that assumes you don’t resign any of Hawks FA, correct? No possible other cuts available (too much dead money) for 2017. Any way they can trade Kearse or Lane away for a 5th or 6th so that money is off their books?
Do you think their model needs to be adjusted for the future? Having 10-15 highly paid players and the rest on the cheap.
I don’t think they’ll trade Lane.
He’s a better corner than Shead imo. Shead is the better DB, though.
Tom Brady didn’t try him but once last time they met and it was a deflection.
The best QB’s don’t try him. They done their homework
i don’t think they get much cap relief on a trade, depends on their bonus structure.
But I doubt anyone gives even a 7th round pick for 2 well paid players who have had disappointing seasons.
they do not have a lot of FA to resign.
Hauska, Willson seem to be the top 2 and I think Willson gets enough money somewhere else that they bump Vannett to #2 TE.
Shead and Gilliam are RFA’s, won’t cost much unless they try to sign Shead to long term contract
but $40 M sounds great until you start figuring it all out and seeing who else has more to spend, who you have to resign, extend, etc.
At the very least, you need to spend enough to not get worse while others improve and you need some rookies to improve enough to contribute next year also.
I’ve felt like Lane/Terrell is a bad combination in the secondary – and one that will be exploited again and again. I would like to see another draft pick in that area as the weakness can lead to turnovers. Also in case they lose another safety or cornerback to injuries. What if Lane/ Shead goes out, who is left?
Unfortunately it seems like the troubles on offense and defensive line will take priority. So I’m back to praying for 5th round luck in finding another cornerback/safety.
Great points AH. I’ve felt for many years that Terrell was a major depth weakness and didn’t really offer a similar skillset to Earl.
Terrell stops a run for 5 when ET would stuff it at the line.
Obviously no-one is Earl, but there are faster players and younger cheaper options than Terrell.
Lane for me has been better than Maxwell was for the Seahawks.
I think a day 3 DB will always be in play for Seattle. We didn’t go that way last year, but got some steals in UDFA in Powell and Elliott. Both have performed on ST and should be mainstays through their first contracts
Terrell has always looked bad in preseason. He has done nothing so far to prove that wrong. Terrell’s speed doesn’t show because he has terrible instincts and reaction.
Knowing that wouldn’t you think Richard and PC might scrap the single high safety system for something else? But they haven’t, that is why so many long passes are being completed. Are they incapable of designing some Dick Labeau type schemes to confuse the opposing qbs ?
“Lane for me has been better than Maxwell was for the Seahawks.”
Objection your honor! I strongly disagree.
That’s fine. It really is mostly opinion.
I think he’s one of the best slot corners in the league and deserved the contract we gave him.
The lack of targets by the elite echelon of QBs reinforces that in my mind.
Trading Lane won’t bring any cap relief because of the dead money on his deal.
Yes, the $40m has to include players they re-sign. But I’m not referring to ‘they have a whole $40m to spend’ — I’m merely using the figure to illustrate they will have the ability to be active.
With our Cap Space can the following be accomplished?
1) Sign Zeitler -4 year 8-10 mil per
2) Sign Calais Campbell 3 years 8-10 mil per
3) Extend Britt 4 years 6mil Per
4)Extend Kam and Bennett 2-3 years with cap friendly deals /more guaranteed $
If they did this and signed Shead as a RFA they could go into the draft and be able to focus on either taking the best OT / RB in Rd #1 and 2 then use the rest of the draft to add Defensive talent
That looks pretty good. Although, I’m not sure I would extend Kam and Mike. More guarantee for 2017, sure, maybe 1 year extension. Just don’t see the value in giving them each another 2-3 years on top of 2017.
If they get this done, and make a splash like you suggested earlier in trading up for Bolles and grabbing Foreman and this roster will be a legit Superbowl contender again.
Love the thoughts Trevor and love the guys but will play devils advocate here. First Zeitler, I think he would be prefect, not just from the field perspective but as a leader that this unit needs. Campbell would be great as well but your money there i think would be to rich for a 30 year old, but would love him rushing the passer from the inside. Next I would like to wait on Britt to make sure its not a one year wonder and Im not sure the Hawks would give out that mid level extension. They usually go big or let them go. Then what to do with Kam and Mike? They have missed significant time this year, I think extending is for surely an option but just not sure. You could also throw Jimmy Graham in there as well. Ill great topics though. Would love to see a line next year of:
LT Draft pick like Ramsyck or Bolles
LG Odhiambo or Glowinski
C Britt
RG Zeitler
RT Ifedi
Could be the makings of a solid line.
With the cap going up, I don’t see any way a guy like Zeitler signs for under $10 million. There are some good teams with unbelievably horrible offensive lines and they are going to be out wanting good OL, too. The Vikings and Panthers are just a few examples.
Look how much better the Lions have looked this year with an improved OL. Theirs was a horrid mess last year (like ours) and now they look pretty legit. Getting one good player really solidified things.
Its not just getting one player, of course.
They have had some consistency there as well.
Funny how Justin Britt is our best OL and he’s also been here the longest.
It’s like they actually get better when coached by Cable.
Almost every player who came through Seattle’s OL system was hot garbage when they got here, save maybe Okung/Giaco/Unger
I wouldnt give Cable too much credit, as his big “successes” are Sweezy and Britt, who took three years and three positions to find a home. Okung couldnt stay healthy in his system and Carpenter sucked as a Seahawk his last year here–he wasnt good until AFTER he left Seattle and got to play in a totally different system. Giacomini was ok, but not great and like Carpenter did better AFTER leaving Seattle and Cable and his system.
While his successes are few, his failures are manifold. Moffitt, Bowie, Bailey, Jared Smith, Poole, Webb, several other free agents, etc…
Perhaps if we can add a solid G and figure out someone to play LT acceptably next year the current group will gel at some point before Wilson gets murdered. I feel tentatively positive regarding the potential of Odhiambo, Fant, Britt, Glow, and Ifedi…..
your more optimistic then me. There has to be a quality addition in there somewhere. Zeitler would be ideal, and yes before he gets murdered. Very funny!
You talk about him playing multiple positions as if it’s a failure?
I think it’s a huge testament to his versatility intelligence and professionalism.
He’s grown into a major leader on this line and Center makes the best use of his massive intelligence; which, as we know, is Cable’s favorite characteristic in his players.
I dont give much credit for sucking at two positions–RT and LG, no. He was one slipup from being out of football before finding a home at C.
Your right, Seahawks would have to go 4 years $40 million for him.
ALEX COLLINS IS SO SLOW
HE TURNS LIKE A OIL TANKER
WHY DID WE WASTE A WHOLE 5TH ROUND PICK ON HIM. THAT COULD WOJLD HAVE HAD BEEN A NEXT RICHARD SHERMA
JUST BECAUSE SCHNEIDER AND BIELEMA ARE FRIENDS I BET.
THE N.EPOTISM F.OOTBALL L.EAGUE
GERMAIN IFEDI IS A BUST
FIRE CABLE-BEFELL 2017
[sarcasm]
Lol, are you drunk Kenny?! Alex Collins IS slow, but so is Spencer Ware. Germain Ifedi was a huge disappointment at RG, thats for sure. I hope moving to RT is in his immediate future and it goes well.
Fire Bevell? I hope not. Cable on the other hand…dont let the door hit ya on the ass on yer way out!
Hahaha nooo not yet. everything I said above was totally falacious!
I was speaking to the rumblings early on that Collins lacked the tools to succeed at this level. He showed excellent burst, vision, and power in the last game.
We got a really smart group of players this year, I’m happy about that.
I don’t think Cable has reached the end of his rope. We have one pro on the OL. The rest might as well be garbage men
I think people will hate or dislike this draft class too. Very scheme dependent this year.
IF–and its a big IF–Prosise can stay healthy next year, and Ifedi moves to RT and does well, then I think this class will be a really good one. I think Vannett is a keeper and will blossom next season, everyone loves Prosise healthy, Ifedi has had his moments, and Alex Collins flashed last week–hopefully he can build on it. Q Jeff got hurt but the Coaches seemed happy with his progress to that point. Lawler is still on the PS so all in all, this could turn out to be a really good draft. Wont know for sure for a couple years.
IF–and its a big IF–Prosise can stay healthy next year, and Ifedi moves to RT and does well, then I think this class will be a really good one. I think Vannett is a keeper and will blossom next season, everyone loves Prosise healthy, Ifedi has had his moments, and Alex Collins flashed last week–hopefully he can build on it. Q Jeff got hurt but the Coaches seemed happy with his progress to that point, Lawler is still on the PS and Odhiambo seems to be trending in the right direction, so all in all, this could turn out to be a really good draft. Wont know for sure for a couple years.
Bingo. You nailed it. Won’t know for a couple years should be the outlook on every draft class. Its impossible to fill every need in a draft, some selections are made a year out or in advance (Vannett, Odhiambo, QJeff although he wasn’t supposed to be), some guys are drafted as projects (Lawler), and some need development (Ifedi Wap). And then there’s the picks that are taken to be depth, backups, or role players (Hunt, Collins).
If Prosise gives us 10 games he’s worth it IMO. Look at guys like Gronk, Jordan Reed, or even LeVeon Bell for example. They hardly, if ever, play a full 16 game season. But, they’re so dynamic, game changing, and give coordinators fits in their game plan they’re special talents.
And when the master or details and game plans, Bellicheck, can’t scheme to stop Prosise, you know he’s a phenemonal player.
Dont count on Bellicheat being unable to handle Prosise again. He got surprised, it wont happen again. That man is the Devil lol!
Which one is the pro? I don’t want to sound like an idiot later on….
Posted this yesterday but I think it is very important to realize when discussing how they fix things going forward. They are like addicts to the current OL system.
**** The First Step to Recovery is Admitting You Have a Problem****
Once again think about this.
No Offensive lineman drafted by the Hawks in the PC / JS era has been resigned! Not even one!!!!
Think about that for a second. We have never developed an OL player we have drafted to the point where they were considered good enough to sign to a 2nd contract. This despite spending the following 14 draft picks the last 7 years which includes (3) 1st round picks, a 2nd round pick, (2) 3rd round picks and (2) 4th round picks
2010 Okung 1st round
2011 Carpenter 1st round, Moffitt 3rd round
2012 Sweezy 7th Round
2013 Seymour, Bowie 7th Round
2014 Britt 2nd round, Scott 6th round
2015 Poole and Glowinski 4th Rd , Sokoli 6th round
2016 Ifedi 1st round, Rees 3rd Round, Hunt 6th Round.
We have spent more draft capital on the OL than any other position group on the team but it is the only position we have not developed one player they thought was worth signing to a 2nd deal.
All this draft capital and we have the worst OL in the NFL and have not developed one core player. That to me tells me everything there is to know about the scheme and development plan the Hawks have utilized under Tom Cable. I know he is supposed to be a genius but it has not worked. The results speak for themselves.
My #1 hope this off season is they switch blocking schemes and allow this young talented group to grow together in a scheme that utilizes their talent and strengths. I don’t wish for anyone to loose their job but if Cable cannot or will not adjust then a change should be made. If we are really lucky he will get a Head Coaching job as he is rumored to be a candidate.
It’s also by far the largest position group to which they must attend.
Its also one of the hardest to identify and build over time in addition to being easily the shallowest talent pool in the sport.
We heard they did offer over $30 million to Sweezy though. He simply took more money in Tampa. Personally, I never liked Sweezy and am glad he left. He would have only fit in with this current group, not enhanced it. It’s like Rob was mentioning earlier, you don’t offer good mid-range money for players who aren’t good even if they are a little bit of an improvement over what you had. And like I said with Sweezy, I don’t think he’d have enhanced anything this year. He’d have only sucked up cap space to prevent the rest of the team from being as good.
Spot on, here, bobbyk
Besides it should be easy to find guards in the draft. They are a dime a dozen compared to finding a left tackles. So why can’t the Seahawks find or develop them?
I heard Cable complaining about Sweezy’s bad blocking habits. Was that just sour grapes?
Even when they offer a contract to guys like Okung and Sweezy they don’t want to stay and play for Cable in this system. My point exactly.
To be fair, Britt is coming up on the end of his contract and will likely be retained, or at least receive an offer from Seattle. And its waaaay too early to say anything about extending or not for Odhiambo, Ifedi and Hunt. I think at least two will get offers to stay here, and possibly all three, but they are rookies for chrissakes!
Not a Cable fan, but Im pretty sure Seattle will keep him around another year at least, and I still feel good about the future of some of our young linemen. Just frustrated the line isnt improving week to week…
I have a question about Ifedi:
He looked great to me in the preseason. However, then he had the high ankle sprain and missed time.
How much has that injury hindered him this season in terms of missing time early?
However, so much of it seems mental for him now. He doesn’t look like he knows what he’s doing and that isn’t because of a lingering injury.
Well, I thought him missing the first month of games was hugely impactful for his season and the familiarity on the OL
I always think of that first slate of games as almost a preseason part 2.
Teams are running vanilla schemes and still finding their stride and identity. It would have been a great chance to get some love reps.
I don’t think it’s mental, it’s a physical adaptation he has to make.
He has never ever played against dominant interior OL
Lol @ people complaining about Germain Ifedi after reading Kenneth Arthur’s article about a PFF article about first round rookies.
Watch the OL during a game. You’ll see why he can play in this league.
Its called upside.
Man the thread on that post was the most horrific round-about logical fallacy laden section I’ve seen on fieldgulls.
That’s what you get for saying in the opening paragraph that no-one knows the answer
There are rumors going around that Cable is a big target for a head coaching job this off season. I’m not sure how legit these rumors are, but I would help him pack his bags if he was offered a HC job. I’m not keen on his ability to actually coach, but there is no doubt he can instill toughness on a team that is lacking. Some program might find that appealing for a few years.
What is the source of the rumours?
I got the article from here:
http://sea.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Tom-Cable-among-candidates-for-head-coach-openings-50051006
Adam Schefter via Derek Lewis
Im not buying it. Cable wants to be a HC, this is just his agent trying to drum up business. As poorly as his line performed the last couple years, I’ll be shocked if he gets an interview.
Bevell could get one, but he just doesnt seem the HC Personality type to me. I dont really want to see him go, I’d prefer to see what he can do with a different line coach though…
I think Bevell has done a good job all things considered. Is he perfect? Absolutely not, but I don’t know of too many OCs who can “call good plays” with an OL as inept as ours.
That being said, it seems like the players don’t necessarily respect him as much as they should. Heck, Lynch and Baldwin have even flicked him off while he was on the field. You can say the Baldwin one was funny, but you know how bad Lynch thought of him based on his Mom to a degree. Sherman and ET have had voiced criticism in the past, most recently Sherm. Maybe it’d be better if Bevell and Cable did leave. Continuity is awesome, but sometimes change is definitely good. I don’t know the perfect answer.
You bring up a great point bobbyk. I think Bevell has done pretty well, all things considered. He has to work with a very poor O line and an unconventional QB who is sometimes very erratic in the pocket. He has his flaws but the results over the past few years speak for themselves.
I too wonder if Superbowl 49 created a rift in the team that may never heal until they move on from the guy who called “the play”. Why else would Sherman blow up at Bevell for throwing at the one a few weeks ago? Like you, I have never seen a coach less respected than Bevell. I kind of feel sorry for him in that regard.
Bevell has had his struggles, and his absolute failure to integrate Harvin, added to his inability to utilize Jimmy Graham in the Red Zone are definite knocks against him–to say nothing of the FB draw on fourth down and short vs Atlanta in the playoffs (the NINTH time they’d run that play that year in a similar situation) and the Worst Play Ever vs the Pats.
However, he’s saddled with a crap line and Cable ranked above him and managing the run game. At times he’s been a magician, and the second half of last season showed what a Stud OC he can be when he’s on his game.
I really want to see what he can do with someone other than Cable manning the line and run game.
NEVER going to happen. That’s a joke, right? I thought only Lane Kiffin could fail upwards so well….
I’ve been trying to work out D’Onta Foreman for weeks to understand if the Hawks would legitimately be interested in him. How fast is he? How big is he? Would his running style fit the Seahawks? Is he deceptively more athletic than he shows on film? I was watching him again and my subconscious finally came to the forefront and made an NFL comparison. When he runs north/south he has this balanced wiggle, with small jump cuts and a smooth weaving style through traffic. Once in a while he hits the line inside and nothing’s there so he immediately goes horizontal in one quick motion, again with controlled smooth body control. He has excellent, but not elite burst through the line, and he has excellent, but not elite speed running away from faster defenders once he hits the secondary. When he runs doesn’t give off the vibe of a big, violent power back like an Earl Campbell or Leonard Fournette, so it’s easy to kind of judge him as a more medium-sized back (even though I saw numerous instances of him plowing through defenders and smacking secondary-level tacklers right in the chestplate). That’s why I would keep going away from him as a potential draft pick. Then it clicked. His smooth, weaving running style, in a number of ways, reminds me very much of Alex Collins. Not everything they do is similar but there is definitely a familiar look between the two smooth, weaving styles of running. The trick is to ignore the big size difference between the two when watching them:
Alex Collins junior highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCWq-1u8EDo
D’Onta Foreman junior highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_9VhPVTor0
I know those are highlight reels, so here is his DB against California:
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/donta-foreman-vs-california-2016/
So is D’Onta a bigger version of Alex?
Alex Collins combine and pro day:
5100 217
4.59 x 40 (was dealing with nagging injuries at combine, so likely he runs a 4.50, possibly a 4.48)
32 1/2 vertical jump (pro day where he was healthier, but might not have been 100% yet, so a 33-34″ may be possible here)
9′ 05″ broad jump (again, may be more like a 9′ 08″ – 9′ 10″
D’Onta Foremen is listed as 6-1 249, and reputed to be able to run under a 4.50 x 40. But how legitmate are those listings? because if he’s more Alex Collin’s size and weight then…well…we already have Alex Collins…If Foreman is really 3″ taller and at least 25-30 lbs heavier than Collins but has a similar athletic profile, then I would say yes, the Hawks would definitely be interested in him. His SPARQ, because of the much bigger size, would be significantly higher than Collins. It could easily be the difference between Collins being a 5th rounder to the Hawks and Foreman being a late first rounder to us (isn’t it fun to say “us” when we talk about “our” team).
Here again, I watched plenty of tape trying to work out his size and weight (watching him next to offensive lineman, etc.), and his speed and quickness. I’ve come to the conclusion that his minimum height will be a little over 6 feet, and his minimum weight will be a little over 235 lbs. My best guess is that he is actually a legitimate 6-1 and 240-45 lbs. And I think he has a good shot at running a 4.50 x 40 and maybe even a 4.48 if he doesn’t come to the combine at 250lbs.
Here is some picture evidence for size and weight:
Here he is standing next to QB Shane Buechele (listed as 6-1 19, but of course he may be a little smaller than his roster listing):
http://www.kvue.com/img/resize/content.kvue.com/photo/2016/11/30/USATSI_9702342_168381617_lowres_1480531440426_7190831_ver1.0.jpg?preset=534-401
and
http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/51/37/30/10876441/15/1024×1024.jpg
Foreman is taller, bigger arms, bigger legs, bigger waist, bigger boned, and has a bigger helmet that is probably more than just the dreads. He is just a big, thick-bodied dude.
Now compared to TE Caleb Bluiett (listed as 6-3 257, but again could be smaller per the typical college exaggeration of height weight listings)
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/ynQ96zw6g09y0AvLhnlJsntQIsI=/0x0:3711×2474/1310×873/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/51320587/usa-today-9594978.0.jpg
Foreman is not as big, but I don’t think it’s more than 2 inches and 15 lbs of difference.
Now compared to OL Brandon Hodges (listed as 6-4 310…and you know the drill by now…)
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Notre+Dame+v+Texas+R7hsy1ph-qQx.jpg
Again, Foreman is not as big, but he’s also not puny compared to a 300 lb. OL either. In fact it shows just what a big boy Foreman is, which is what I saw whenever I could comp him against opposing team’s DL or LB’s in videos (there’s a tricky, time consuming exercise).
One of the things that makes Foreman’s weight being north of 240 likely (besides the size comps) is the sheer thickness of his hamstrings and calves. He has a big, thick lower body, not just upper body:
http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/53/50/32/11437733/3/1024×1024.jpg
and
http://sportsdaydfw.imgix.net/1474845770-_D2_4720.JPG?q=50&auto=format&w=700
He looks more like a linebacker, but he still has what appears to be very good explosion power in the form of vertical and horizontal jumping ability. His touchdown lunge at 1:12 in the Cal DB video is something I saw on a number of occasions. He will leap for extra yards. Here is picture of some vertical ability:
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/onta-foreman-of-the-texas-longhorns-leaps-over-jeremy-tyler-of-the-picture-id622862238
My point here is not to state that the Seahawks will draft Foreman, or that he will absolutely reach the measurables I’ve speculated, but that it may be more possible that I thought at first. What I am also saying is that Foreman’s running style may comp a bit towards what the Seahawks already showed interest in and drafted with Alex Collins, and that if he is a 3-inch taller, 30 lbs. heavier version of Alex Collins, then it makes him unique enough that they might consider him in the late first round. We’ll see how the Combine goes, but I still can’t take Foreman completely off the draft list, he keeps hanging around as intriguing – as I wonder to myself if he’s really unique or not…I guess we’ll find out.
…QB Shane Buechele listed at 6-1 191
Does anyone here see Ifedi being a worse RT than Sowell or Gilliam? Just wondering, in a vacuum with no other positional considerations if he would win that competition.
I cant see it–but then again I was sure he’d kick ass at RG after preseason…so what do I know?
Ditto at this point.
My take on his weaknesses are that he doesn’t adjust to defenders who appear suddenly on a stunt or blitz. If he moves out to the tackle position, he will know who he has to block. So the problem changes to whether he can move his feet fast enough to stay with the defender. He has strength to resist bull rushes, and he uses his hands okay.
I would like to see him try out at tackle. Might be the move that salvages him off the scrap pile.
He has amazing footspeed
He really is a tackle in a guards body. He’s not even remotely similar in style to Carp except he’s a big black guy.
No usually a doubter, mostly because I don’t like complaining about something that is out of my control. But…….
After seeing some improvement, the offensive line is appearing even worse than the 2015 version. There was a play on the Cardinals goal line where their defense individually beat every offensive lineman en route to stopping the play. I was on board with the steady growth plan before, but none of the linemen have showed too much promise outside of maybe Britt. Even bad teams are capable of having serviceable lines. The titans seemed to have built a line out of nowhere, of course having higher draft picks. Cable has had a few years to prove himself, the results are not great. I find it intriguing that there are teams that would consider Cable and Bevel as head coaches. At the moment, fans seem to be on board with bringing in some veteran talent, and losing hope in Cable’s ability to coach the players up. Will be interesting to see what they do.
Why would teams want the coordinators of one of the most explosive and dynamic offenses of the last three years?
I think every OL that’s come through here is way better for it
What kind of claim is that? I think Webb was worse, Evans was worse, and Sowell is the same as he was before, if not worse. So all you are really saying is that rookie OL got better with coaching and experience. I think that’s be true of every lineman on every team in the league.
Actually, now that I think about it, I’m not sure even that extremely weak claim is true. Glow showed better in his 1-game audition last year than he has so far this year. Ifedi’s first four games of the year looked better than his last four, IMO.
I could see why they might want Bevell; he’s been making chicken salad of Cable’s chicken bleep for years.
A few interesting tidbits form Carroll’s presser today that sort of pertain to this thread.
1. He mentioned again the consistency issue with Ifedi over the last few games, says he wants to see him settle in more. (translation probably means settle down)
2. I found it interesting he spoke favorably of Rees Odhiambo, and how well he has taken to learning to play 4 spots on the OL, and the big TE role. He volunteered that he’s in position to compete for a starting role next year. When asked what position that was, he was pretty evasive, only offering that he feels most comfortable playing on the left side.
3. He spoke at good length about the injury issues facing the Seattle RBs this year, Rawls breaking his leg the first game starting against the Rams, Prosise looking good but never being able to stay healthy. IMO, for those who think it’s wasteful for Seattle to spend an early pick on a RB this year, I think you might want to brace yourself a bit for that, because it could happen.
4. He was asked about if he still thinks that the quality of this last draft class is high, and he pretty emphatically answered us, saying that they have gotten two first year starters in Reed and Ifedi, and that he feels we will see many other players really emerge from this class within the next couple years.
4. answered “yes”
I think Reed has had a heck of a year. He’s not a pass rusher by any means but he’s a stout guy on the DL. I never thought we’d be able to replace Mebane in terms of that stout guy who has hard to move and Reed has done that as a rookie (we already had Rubin, but that’s different, too). Impressive to me. I don’t buy the notion that you can just find the run stuffers at the local dollar store. Not ones as good as Reed has been as a rookie and especially not as good as he’s going to become. He was a really good pick.
I agree about the RB position. I absolutely see them doing something significant this off-season. I don’t know what it is, but they will not try to go into next year depending mostly on Rawls/Prosise. No way. Not after all the injuries this year. Maybe they try to get a year from Adrian Peterson? There’s no way he’s going to be in Minnesota next year. They will trade for a guy (ala Lynch), sign someone like AP, or draft someone by the second day of the draft.
Yeah, I’ve been pretty happy with Reed on the whole. I’ve been kinda holding tight to my minority opinion on this board that Reed has shown some stuff as a pass rusher, and can continue to develop there, possibly being a 3 down player down the road. Not a twitchy guy by any means, but enough athleticism and strength to beat through guys to the QB. Kinda reminds me of Randy Starks a bit. Either way, if what you get is an elite run stuffer, nothing wrong with that whatsoever, especially in a division where they will face David Johnson, and Todd Gurley twice a year.
As for RB, it could be a veteran. I wonder if they are at striking distance for Fournette or Cook, they don’t move up, or if they stay put, maybe drop back a bit, if they really do like a guy like Foreman.
I like Reed too – and I agree that he is both a run stopper and also does well on passing downs. Just a good utility guy. The board is strong enough this year to pick up another good defensive tackle in the second round or even third.
I’d be pretty excited about that if they did. There’s definitely going to be some interesting ones out there. Personally, I really like Jaleel Johnson a lot.
This team regressed from #1 against run (85Yrd/G) last year to #8 this year(95Yrd/G) and all the change was Mebane for Reed. What is the most disturbing is the fact that Reed actually the best draft chose from the last year. This team is horrible in drafting the last 4 years.
If I were to look at the history of the team’s offseason actions under PC/JS, and parse the tea leaves of the words of PC today, I would lean more towards the idea that if Seattle were to get splashy in FA, it would be perhaps to go after one of the big name DTs that might hit the market, and use the draft to again fix the whoas of the run game.
They haven’t been really that active in FA for the OL. They did spend decent $ on Robert Gallery, but I think the philosophy behind that was to spend $ on a vet who was familiar to Tom Cable’s system and could help teach the young linemen to play within in. They cut bait with him fairly quickly. Breno was a bit of an anomaly as a no name player from another team who stuck, and it wasn’t a big spending spree to get him, he simply came in and did a better job at RT than James Carpenter. Put that together with Carroll indicating a potential starting spot for Odhiambo in 2017, it looks like they could be stick with the philosophy to build through young players.
What they do spend tend to consistently spend high draft capital on is RB, OL, and WR. If they do make a FA splash on the DL, I’d lean towards continuing these trends. I see a potential big desire for a workhorse back, that Rawls and Prosise aren’t something that they want to get caught relying on, with their injury trends. I think that finding a OL that fits their formula is something they would still spend an early pick on. They might want to use another day two pick on WR as a hedge for Lockett’s health, Kearse’s consistency, or P Rich still not taking it to the next level.
24: R1P24
RB D’ONTA FOREMAN
TEXAS
56: R2P24
OT CHAD WHEELER
USC
88: R3P24
WR JAMES WASHINGTON
OKLAHOMA STATE
134: R4P31
EDGE CARROLL PHILLIPPS
ILLINOIS
203: R6P24
DL JOEY IVIE
FLORIDA
214: R6P35
FB FREDDIE STEVENSON
FLORIDA STATE
227: R7P9
CB BRENDAN LANGLEY
LAMAR
If they really were to like Foreman, they might not risk him not being available R2.
Wheeler, likely to be seen as another reach, could be a guy they take in R2 to compete at either tackle spots. If Ifedi stays as RG, he could be brought in for RT. If Ifedi moves to RT, he could be added to competition for Fant at LT. Or maybe he comes in and becomes a guard.
Washington seems to have a bit of a Golden Tate style to his game, and would presumably make sense.
With DT addressed through FA, rush SAM might be the next biggest need for the defense, and a guy like Phillips might make a lot of sense. They can continue adding to the DL later, maybe add another runner, possibly someone to be that athletic FB, and find another corner to develop. Mid round LB, later round DTs, FBs, and CBs also tend to be fairly consistent trends.
Very rare that DTs will have a big impact in year 1.
Heads up, Washington is returning to school.
I really like that draft.
Ivie has traits for days and will be a huge steal.
Bummer. Well, scratch my idea of landing another Golden Tate in R3 theory 😉
You seen that kid outta LA Tech? Carlos Henderson? Old Dominion has a guy, Zach Pascal, has some Tate to his game as well. They use him in wildcat, at RB, big time athlete.
BTW, I do think there might be something with Chad Wheeler. He seems like a TC guy and a Seahawk to me.
Watch them draft RT Zach Banner though. ?
Yeah, I think there is a Seahawky thing about Wheeler.
Banner, good Lordy.
I think Reed is a penetrator. Rubin moves laterally so well and makes play up and down the LOS.
They seem to be missing that immovable force that won’t put up stats, but will eat double teams and dominate the run game.
Yeah, I think we kinda feel the same thing there. That’s what intrigues me about Qualls or Nnadi, perhaps Bennie Logan in FA.
I like Bennie Logan a lot coming outta LSU. I know Seattle liked Philly DT Beau Allen a ton as well.
You’re right in that DTs will have a huge impact year one. That being said, I see Reed becoming that immovable force (even if he’s not 350 pounds) that Mebane was for us. He’s played so well as a rookie, which few rookies do, and is only going to improve.
I think he’s going to be dominant at the point of attack (like Mebane) who can also penetrate (like Mebane). He’s not going to penetrate to the tune of big sack numbers, but he will push the pocket a bit and he’s well on his way to becoming not just good – but great – at his role, like Mebane was. Different games to a degree, similar results. ‘Bane had more of an early jump of the snap but both are stout. ‘Bane was good as a rookie, too (the run defense actually improved after he took over for Darby).
He very well could be that guy.
I like Reed alot myself as well. Thought we flat-out got away with highway robbery taking him.
I wonder if his injury earlier this year has impacted his game. Not easy for a 300+ pounder to put all that weight on a bad ankle.
It doesn’t have to a high pick either, but I do think the signing of DT John Jenkins signaled they wanted more size.
They’re getting pushed off the ball a little bit right now. Even if that guy is a 1 down run stuffer. Put the offense in 2nd & long situations, let Reed come in and blow up plays in the backfield, then on 3rd & long, let our pass rushers tee off.
I really like what the Dolphins had around 2012 with Randy Starks and Paul Soliai. If Seattle could pair Reed up with a big powerful cat that eats up linemen, they could have something really special on early downs.
As an addendum to this, I’d include “Repair the long-snapping game.”
The bizarre and foolish move of dropping Clint Gresham in favor of Nolan Frese has been a major detriment all season long for special teams. Was this done purely to trim a bit of salary? Regardless Frese has been a weak link and is to blame for a number of 2016’s kicking and punting miscues.
Yeah, Gresham had a few iffy snaps last year and they cut him to save a half mill?! Major bean-counting blunder that cost us at least one game and likely more.
Just read a comment on the article “Is Germain Ifedi the worst starting guard in the NFL” villifying the sdb community saying he was “basically forced out” because he didn’t like Germain Ifedi. Not naming names.
Reminded me how untrue that is and how awesome and thoughtful this community is. It never gets personal and everyone stays loose.
Even this thread has discussed Ifedi with more thought provocation than that entire article did, not including the circle-jerk of a comments section.
Thanks a lot to everyone of you who posts and keeps a level-head.
I know I wouldn’t have much to say without all the opinions and dissent and research that you contribute
It’s amazing that after seeing Britt take 3 years to become a really good player, that the same analysts would give up on Ifedi after a handful of games despite Ifedi having far more potential than Britt had.
Its silly, but more was expected of a guy picked in the first round who was a T in college. Rightly or wrongly, most folks expect a guy who could play T in the NFL to play even better at G, and linemen who are first round picks are expected to play well at G right away.
That hasnt happened with Ifedi, so many are impatient. Time will tell if he’s got what it takes to be a good to great G in the NFL, and/or a good T. He needs to at least become a Pro Bowler at G to justify his draft status.
Yeah, I still don’t have many worries over Ifedi. There’s been some pretty solid flashes, he just hasn’t been able to put it together consistently. When a first round pick struggles as a rookie, people want to throw the bust label on him. Seattle knew how raw he was when they drafted him, but they obviously saw the upside. TC and PC said from day one that it was going to take him a lot of work.
I think folks are getting exasperated that it’s not all there yet for him. Personally, I think there will be some tweak to the line next year that might involve him playing RT and that he’s going to be the road grader we’ve been wanting there. They’ve only ever said that he’s playing RG for right now.
Kenny, Id like to second the positive sentiments you have expressed here, having read the post and all comments over at FG. The article had its points, and there was a certain level of well-reasoned give and take in the comments section, but there is also too much of the off-with-their heads, Red Queens croquet party stuff that reminds me what a great job Rob does over here at keeping things on the kind of even keel that allows a useful flow of information without stifling dissent.
Okay, things arent looking stellar with the ground game, but we knew the post-Beast period might have a bumpy landing. As to the Cable/Ifedi bashing contingent, Ifedis rough edges and rawness were well discussed here prior to the draft. The Hawks needed to take someone and werent (as usual) picking in the most advantageous spot. Wishing I could see a summary of all rookie OL taken, where, and how theyve performed relative to peers. I think that we took the best player we could given our needs and need to take measured steps to right the ship in the coming off-season and show a modicum of patience in the process.
Thanks, as always to Rob and the gang for providing a forum for information and rational discussion and not a kangaroo court.
Bowl game tonight – Indiana vs. Utah. Which future Seahawks should I be watching besides Garett Bolles?
Dan Feeny, guard for Indiana.
Utah CB Brian Allen, Utah EDGE Pita Taumonepu (sp.?), Utah DT Lowell Lotulelei, Utah WR Tim Patrick, Utah RB Joe Williams, Indiana LB Tegray Scales (115 tackles and 20.5 TFL), Indiana CB Rashard Fant.
IMO Seattle will scout the Rose Bowl. They’ll be in California then anyways and have already scouted USC 3 times.
Thanks guys!
Is Feeny playing RT?
I’m liking Joe Jackson out of Miami. He’s a 6-5 250 lb freshman, looks like an EDGE player going forward. 4 star recruit via Scout. He has 8.5 sacks on the year. Watching this Miami/WV game, he has some violent hands and is just abusing whoever WV’s tackle is.
Love this Braxton Berrios, WR, Miami. In HS he had a 137 SPARQ score I beleive.
Miami G Danny Isidora, SR bowl, is a stud! I see a lot of Trai Turner in his game.
Berrios is more of a next year guy like Jackson BTW.
That DT Miami has, Norton? Woof. Dude is a junkyard dog!
Miami DB Corn Elder. He’s very interesting as a hybrid.
Miami, Ohio DE JT Jones is the nephew of Seattle D-line coach Travis Jones? Hmmmm… ?
6’3, 246-250 lbs.
2016 stats: 47 tackles, 12.5 TFL, 6.5 QB sacks.
As a long time fan of the Seahawks and the NFL, I’ve observed that the biggest improvement in players is between their rookie year and second year in the league, primarily because some players figure out the mental aspect of the game.
Some of our rookies will make huge improvements and some will not. I am guessing Fant’s play will dramatically improve, followed by Reed on the defensive line.
To improve the running game, they need a free agent or two on the offensive line, draft a durable physical back and let the young ones get better together.