This is an open thread to discuss the defensive back work outs today. You can watch live from 6am PST by clicking here.
Aloha from Hawaii!!
Tacoma, Washington. Rill talk.
Morning 12’s. I’ll be checking in throughout classes today. Go hawks!
Amerson with 4.4 speed. That was the guy who blew the roof off in 2011 with like 13 ints. Fast and tall, a seahawk in the making. Replace Browner in a year or two?
Warning, double post. I think Alford just cracked the 2nd round barrier. 4.4 speed and awesome at the Senior bowl and during the practices. He might fall because he’s about 25 years old but that doesn’t seem to effect us too much with our philosophy of recycling players. Keep an eye on Alford, he also does kick returns.
Is Tharold Simon doing drills today? I thought he improved steadily over the past season and has good size.
Dang, 4.31 for Milliner.
It didn’t look right, tbh. I’m anxious to see the second try.
Well alrighty then. Guess he’s legit.
Rob, could you put up the Ten Yard Split times?
I’m out for the rest of the day now with work. I won’t be updating the thread until much later today.
Sherm getting no love from Deon and Mayock
Get used to it. Sherm will have to be lights out next to get any real respect.
How much do you think Richard Sherman is aided by Earl Thomas’ presence?
I don’t mean to blaspheme, but it must be nice knowing you have perpetual help over the top.
Don’t get me wrong he is a FANTASTIC DB, but ET is a nice security blanket to cover up any mistakes.
This is all offtopic rhetoric. Just some things I’ve been thinking about.
Not much at all.
Thomas is a great FS, but he is essentially allowing Chancellor to patrol the box. He is essentially doing the work of 2 safeties in coverage.
Sherman is elite. Whether in Seattle’s 3 deep, or in a cover 2. Truth be told I believe the opposite is true: our scheme indicates he’s even better than he would be with 2 safeties in coverage.
Makes total sense. After hearing this, I feel like I was aware of that, too.
The Falcons threw 5 or 6 deep shots on Sherman, and only 1 got completed, and that was more on Chancellor’s screw up than beating Sherman. He is a stud and claim of the best corner in the NFL isn’t premature.
Is it just me or would you rather have Cornelius Washington than any other DE prospect at the combine? He was the only one that impressed me. Werner looked pretty good but not great and DaMontre Moore looked like a 3rd rounder.
Ideal LEO size? Check.
Ideal speed? Check.
Amazing explosiveness and athleticism? Check.
Unreal strength? Check.
Xenomorph-long arms that look like they were sculpted by HR Geiger? Check.
That’s where I hesitate. We see workout warriors every year. How many actually succeed at the next level? Jason Pierre-Paul? So…one of them?
The guy has everything, and he very well could be an outlier, but it’s a risk. I think there would be less pressure even in the second round.
I wish we had like three second-rounders.
Wonder what others think, but I’ve heard Brock Huard say over and over about how the least complicated position requiring the least amount of thinking is the rush end. Go kill the qb. Not rocket science. And if that’s true, then maybe that position lends itself to exceptional athletes as opposed to experienced football players with great instincts more than other positions. Don’t get me wrong, I mean more than other positions, not that it doesn’t matter at all. As opposed to LB where you have to read and react so much and are asked to do a lot more. Give me a football player at lb and a bonehead workout warrior at leo and I think we’ll be okay. I don’t mean this to an extreme, but considering a guy who has the right measurables will work better at that position than any other. Yes I am oversimplifying this.
That sounds like it makes sense…but then I think about how lost Bruce Irvin looked in his first LEO start in Atlanta. Most likely it just takes more than one game to get comfortable, but I think we’ve been spoiled by Clemons’ ability to play the run as well as the pass.
Wow do we need pass-rush depth.
Good point. Particularly in regards to run d. I love Clemons and think he’s pretty instinctive for that position (contrary to my earlier point). Hope he recovers quickly and fully so some of this becomes less important. I still do think though, that if you throw an athlete in to any other position on defense, the negatives really show up ala our franchise bust ib Curry. Knowing his instinctual limitations, though freaky athleticism, the first thing Carroll said he wanted to see on tape when he came to Seattle is if Curry could be his LEO. Turns out not, but Carroll’s first thoughts seem transparent to me about his thoughts on the necessary traits for that position.
that should be lb, instead of ib… oops
That’s really kind of a misnomer. The current poster boys for bust workout warriors are Mike Mamula and Dontari Poe. But in truth, both of those players enjoyed starter level success in the NFL. They just weren’t these hall of fame players.
I’ll give you a 2010 example too. Trent Williams. He vaulted above Russell Okung with a blistering 40 time and great explosion drills. He’s a pro bowl guy and likely will share those honors with Kalil and Okung for some time.
It’s a shame, because I do believe there is a significant portion of fans who have this weird, irrational hatred of hype. Like anyone that benefits from hype is an abject failure if they aren’t a first ballot hall of fame player. There is nothing wrong with hype. And I don’t know why some fans seem to delight in hyped players ‘seeming’ to be these failures because they ended up being solid, if unspectacular pros.
There have been a ton of workout successes that have worked out. Some even hall of fame players. But don’t be so closed minded as to earmark a player simply because they have combine success.
It’s ok to hesitate because of lack of production in college. Poe had pretty poor tape and didn’t produce well even against lesser competition. But remember, every prospect is not finished. They will get as much football instruction between draft day and the end of their first training camp, than they did in 4 years in college. Player development has a massive role in determining whether prospects live up to their draft day notoriety.
It’s easy to look at Schneider as this wunderkind talent genius, but the truth is, the sum of Carroll/Schneider collaboration is much greater than the parts. At the core of this is scheme fit and development. We hear John speak of it all the time.
We draft guys based on what we think we can make them into. Not the result of some other programs’ handiwork. In the case of Washington, I’d invite you to take a close look. I think you’ll quickly come to the realization that he was not used in a manner that would maximize his impact or his production. One can certainly infer that his college coach might have known something we don’t. But UGA was filled with a ton of NFL prospects. And for certain, they preferred to have their LBs free to make impact plays.
I tend to think that UGA had an embarrassment of riches and made the decision to free up their NFL quality LBs. To players like Washington’s detriment. And I think that case is pretty transparent when you look at UGA games.
I agree with his use at UGA and mentioned that in his thread here, and on the PI forums. But this is more than just the stereotypical ‘workout warrior’ that we usually see. People talked about Poe for months leading up to the combine, and Trent Williams was always going to be a top-6 pick. I figured Mamula would go in the first at the time and was only mildly surprised when he went at #7. He had a good college career (I should point out that I’m getting up there in age).
Poe is a good reference, though. He didn’t produce in college either, though he was playing on the line exactly where he was supposed to. I haven’t really heard about him since he was drafted.
Washington has seemed to come out of nowhere (well, come out of the fourth or fifth round) to be one of the top DE’s in the draft. I do think that the assumed move from LB to 4-3 DE looks like it would be a huge benefit to him, and not the reverse like Pittsburgh tried to do with Huey Richardson all those years ago (one of the biggest busts I can remember).
I actually like what little I’ve been able to see of him, as long as he isn’t double-teamed he makes noise. I definitely think he can be projected to excel as a rush end, and also that the dearth of actual evidence of him doing that makes investing a first-round pick risky. I also think that if any FO would do that, it’d be ours.
As far as I’m concerned, hype just makes you ask questions. Taking some glee in seeing hyped players fail seems kinda sad. Though I confess I love it every time Tony Romo throws another INT.
And this is when I realize that Cornelius Washington’s college trajectory is also Bruce Irvin’s.
Here’s a scary thought:
Q: What’s the name of another U Georgia linebacker/DE hybrid who was very fast but had underwhelming production in college and was overshadowed by his college teammates and went undrafted?
A: Chris Clemons
When you recruit a roster full of NFL bodies, like they do at Georgia, inevitably you will have guys with NFL bodies doing nothing but grunt work. Having said that, Washington saw a lot of one-on-one blocking during his time at UGA yet he was rarely dominant. So the guy does have some risk, but precisely the kind of risk you want to take in the mid rounds. It’s worth noting that Clemons wasn’t a dominant college pass rusher either.
Watched tape of Washington… was extremely underwhelmed. Don’t think he was used right, but the strength and explosiveness on tape. Little to no production in college too. I haven’t written him off yet (only watched the South Carolina game) but he was very underwhelming.
Agree about Moore tho. Guy just screams bust to me.
did not show up on tape.*
Let’s see some hand use first. Let’s see some starting time, first.
Let’s see some TAPE first.
I have been scrambling to find film on him since the Senior Bowl. His body type and explosion after that snap screamed Hawks to me. I was thinking round 4 steal from that alone. Since then the lack of film on him has been frustrating. Now I’m thinking there is NO way he lasts to round 4. Might even have to trade back/up into the 30-40’s to get him.
Hopefully he was just misused at Georgia and never given the chance to take advantage of his strengths. I’d hate for there to be red flags we don’t yet know about.
Millner dropping a lot of passes
Tyran Mathieu is smooth as butter. By far the most natural looking football player out there. Miliner looks like a robot compared to him, and no I have never been a Mathieu fan. He’s a natural and ran a solid 40 as well. He gobbles up every football that comes his way and his footwork is natural and smooth. Where does he fit though? Looks like he is a natural FS but can he play the slot?
I’d put him in the slot and profit. You can’t teach his instincts. If we had him in the slot last year against Atlanta instead of Trufant, we win that game. He may not be great cover guy but he’s violent tackler and a playmaking turnover machine that will make a QB think twice about putting the ball in his area.
Most look at him as a problem player like me but most teams have a problem player or two. If he becomes a problem you know Pete, Earl, and Sherm will have something to say to straighten him out. He actually seems like he would be great teammate and leader on the field. Seattle is one of the weed states though so you have to take that into consideration. Nickel corner who has hands, feet, and second to none instincts? Yes please.
I agree. I think the FO has built a really solid locker room with some steadying influences in Wilson and Mike Rob and driven guys like Sherm that have a big personality but work tirelessly.
At this point I think we can draft for talent and let the locker room sort it out afterwards.
I would like this pick, not sure in what round. The Hawks have been looking for a backup for ET for some time now. He would be pretty perfect and he could play the nickle. I think that would justify taking him in the 3rd round.
Plus if he is backing up Earl then he could take him under his wing so to speak. I doubt he would be a problem in the locker room in this scenario.
And you’d get like what..32 games or there abouts before he was kicked out of the league for being a dumb ass. (factoring in what is it 1-4 game suspension, then a 4-8 games suspension, then you’re out)
Sorry, but how does a guy who gets KICKED off of LSU’s team ( team that has it’s own share of problem players) seem like a leader? A leader in football is someone who shows up and works, not someone with a catchy nickname, whose distinguishing characteristic is that they are undersized and thus it’s pretty impressive that they can make such ahhh-mazing plays.
I don’t know. It just seems like that whole lsu locker room was out of control. I think it’s safe to say that he will not be a leader. But if he loves football then I can’t see him not taking an all pro safety like earl Thomas seriously. We have to remember these guys are kids. He could really mature given the right situation. I think the hawks/carrol have a knack for this
Nick – You’re right that “these guys are kids.” But, having said that, the Honey Badger made a choice to smoke weed, knowing the effect that it might have on his college career and — more importantly — his possible position in the draft. I’m all for giving guys a second chance (not a third or fourth), but it sure makes me question his judgment and, with all the other talent available in this draft, I don’t see why we need to take a chance on a guy.
I like Tyrann Mathieu too. He stood out to to me as someone who moves in a unique way. Seems like a good guy to match up with today’s smaller quicker slot receivers. Is he disciplined enough to play in zone looks? He clearly had a knack for big plays. I would be pretty excited if the Seahawks talent evaluators found him worthy of a draft pick.
Tru with the 4.31 unofficial time! yikes!
Pete’s always talking about competing. Can you think of any other player at any position at the combine that wants to compete more than Dez Trufant?
Dez Trufant welcome to the #25 pick in the 2013 NFL Draft.
Don’t you dare say that.
Shamarko Thomas with 28 reps on the bench press.
Looks like he could be ET depth.
stepped into a starting role in seven games as a true freshman, moving from linebacker to safety to cornerback depending on the matchup (41 tackles, 6.5 for loss). He again started seven games and played in all 13 in 2010, racking up 67 tackles, 3.5 for loss and three pass break-ups despite playing with padding and a brace on his left elbow much of the season. Thomas started all 10 games in which he played as a junior (missing two with a leg injury), again making 67 stops, three for loss. Thomas started in all 13 games as a senior, and led the Orange in tackles, with 85. He also intercepted two passes, and forced three fumbles. His play in 2012 earned him a Coaches All-Big East first-team selection.
I love Shamarko Thomas. He’s actually on a lot of teams’ radar as an R3 or later pick.
I definitely see us interested in him or Duke WIlliams. Interested to see how Duke performs. Definitely surprised at Shamarko’s 40 time. You see him more in a thumper/SS role. Kind of a Kam Chancellor mini me.
His measurables are almost exactly the same as Earl Thomas’ outside of strength. But he doesn’t have Earl’s ball skills.
Oddly, I think he’s a candidate for slot cover corner. He has excellent hands and shows agility and speed to stay with smaller/shiftier slot WRs. His strength will give him the ability to jam those shorter routes. With smaller slot guys, you really have a hard time getting a guy with length like Lane/Sherman/Browner. The routes are quicker developing and you have to have a lot of agility to cover it. Shamarko has that, but has some impressive strength and hands too.
Will be important to see him in the drills. See if he can flip his hips smoothly. That’s not something you see from a SS often. If he can, then it would be a good indicator he can hang with the Welker/Harvin types in the NFL. He could be a unique talent to add additional physical toughness in a role where that quality is difficult to achieve.
He seems to be the closest ET simulacrum to come around in awhile (well, a faded copy). We need a guy like that, someone with enough speed that can play the single high safety in a pinch. Our D would be in some serious trouble without Earl.
I was impressed after watching him do an interview. Carroll is going to love his team first yet cocky attitude. Big chip on his shoulder from always being told he is too short. It just made him want it more. Very much an “Always Compete” type of guy.
I wonder how many other teams are looking to draft “Carroll/Schnieder” type of guys this year? Good thing for the NFL but bad for Seattle.
What round do you think we target Sharmarko Thomas? I know people were previously talking 5th+ but I have a very, very hard time believing that with his potential and college production. He almost seems to me like a safety with the hard hitting ability of kam chancellor with the range of earl Thomas. Almost if the two of them had a baby!
I had Thomas as a R2-3 prospect before the combine.
Dang! That’s what I thought.
I would cry tears of joy if we used day 2 to get Mathieu (or Roby or Amerson) and Woods (or Wheaton). The only exciting day 1 picks (that we’ll have a shot at) is Short or Cooper. I would probably come around on Ertz, Fluker, or even Te’o.
I would cry tears of sorrow if we took Fluker or Te’o in R1.
Everyone should take a listen to this. Some pretty good info here.
http://mynorthwest.com/category/pod_player_sports/?a=9952779&p=1014&n=Bob and Groz Show
Best line from the combine coverage so far:
Chris Rose- What’s up with the Drew Carey glasses?
Marriucci- I stole them from Michael Irvin.
*Rose- Leave everything else in Irvin’s suite case alone please!
Worst line from the combine:
Mayock — Manti comes from a small “village” in Hawaii.
A “village”? My mind thinks of a bunch of natives sitting around thatch-roofed huts on the cover of a 1950s National Geographic.
He grew up on Oahu, and went to school in Honolulu — a village of roughly 400,000 people. Mayock’s one of my favorites, but he definitely has a man crush on Manti!
Yeah… he was a little too positive about some of those Notre Dame guys. Maybe coincidence, but that’s always going to be thrown out there given his gig with that team.
Whats mathieu’s value as it stands now. 4th rd? he would be a PERFECT NICKLE BACK. Can u imagine him with Earl ball hawking while Sherm and Browner hold down the Islands, whoo! Oh yeah Killa Kam head hunt’n. Mathieu in the 4th rd is absoulte Larceny.
Rd 1 DT Jones UCLA
Rd 2 WR D. Hopkins Clemson
RD 3 Lb K. Greene Rutg
RD 4 OL Depth
RD 5 Honey Badger LSU
I’d be pretty surprised if he lasted past the 2nd round. Jenoris Jenkins had similar red flags – with equally impressive on field production. Mathieu adds additional value as a returner. If he’s considered stricktly as a nickel back/return man then I would place his value at late 2nd/early 3rd. But if you include the red flags, the Seahawks would likely target him in the 4th – they don’t usually take chances on projects or character issues until the third day (McCoy, D. Davis, Durham, Legree, Sherman, Sweezy). There will be a team that will pull the trigger in the 2nd I think though on hopes of getting the next Devin Hester (with better CB skills).
Let us not forget Aaron Curry. Best combine workout for a LB ever. And far better production on tape than Georgia’s Washington. A great combine workout can confirm what you are seeing on tape…Bobby Wagner looked great on the field, but his 4.46/40 confirmed that he could indeed get sideline to sideline as John/Pete projected. But if the guy never played college footbal at an elite level, then wait until the 6th round to roll the dice on a long shot.
The lower they can get Washington the better (obviously) but I wouldn’t mind going as high as a 3rd rounder if necessary.
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