Florida State’s Josue Matias could be a Seahawks target
Here’s my best guess at where the Seahawks will target certain positions, what their priorities will be and which players they might covet.
The situation at #63
Trade up for a receiver, stay put and take a wide out or simply draft the best offensive lineman available. The three biggest needs are all on offense and should be in play with Seattle’s first pick in the draft.
You don’t rule out a defensive pick here — and the lack of depth in the middle rounds compared to receiver and the O-line makes it a possibility. Seattle’s meeting with Florida State’s Mario Edwards Jr. makes things interesting. However — the Seahawks retain the vast majority of a league-leading #1 defense. Their biggest loss — Byron Maxwell — has been replaced by their biggest free-agent acquisition (Cary Williams). They added depth to the defensive line with Ahtyba Rubin. The only hole left to fill is a replacement for two-sack O’Brien Schofield.
Jimmy Graham provides a much needed X-factor to the offense but there are still gaping holes at left guard and center. Graham’s arrival also shouldn’t prevent the Seahawks adding more talent at receiver. Jermaine Kearse is a free agent next year and Doug Baldwin’s contract expires after the 2016 season. Will Paul Richardson make a full recovery from his latest knee injury? There’s no saying Chris Matthews or Kevin Norwood will amount to anything. There aren’t currently any long-term pieces here.
A defensive pick probably only happens if a very highly coveted player drops into range for a move up. The Seahawks have been pretty consistent though in addressing needs first, taking ‘their’ guys and not responding to the unexpected.
Could LSU corner Jalen Collins fall? He has a broken foot and some other off-the-field issues. I think it’s unlikely he drops to #63 considering Janoris Jenkins only fell to #39 in 2012. The likes of Clemson’s Grady Jarrett and Edwards Jr. are likely to be gone too. This feels like it’s going to be a pick for the offense in round two, unless of course that highly coveted player falls.
It’s as if the Seahawks have been planning to trade up for some time. Having lost out on an early fourth rounder when the Jets cut Percy Harvin, they quickly acquired another from New Orleans. There is a drop-off in talent at around pick #48-52. That extra fourth round pick gets you into range.
There are two realistic trade-up scenarios.
The Seahawks can move up 10-12 spots by trading their earliest fourth round pick (the one acquired in the Jimmy Graham trade). Philadelphia made a similar move last year to draft Jordan Matthews. Detroit at #54 seems like a viable trade-partner — they have picks in rounds 1-3 and then nothing until round six.
If they want to move up even further — possibly into the 40’s — they could consider trading the same fourth round pick and also their 2016 third rounder. It’d be a bold move — but they will receive a third round compensatory pick next year for Byron Maxwell. That would soften the blow somewhat.
Forget smokescreens and all of that — by now we have a pretty good idea the Seahawks have interest in Dorial Green-Beckham. Tony Pauline’s recent report validates that and there’s no need to second guess it. He’d be an ideal outside receiver with the potential to be that true #1 Russell Wilson hasn’t really had as a pro. Imagine putting DGB and Jimmy Graham on the field to compliment the running game. That’s why we can’t rule out a slightly more ambitious trade.
You might balk at the price. There aren’t many moves Seattle can make in this draft that’ll have a dramatic impact in 2015. This is one of them. They’d have a legitimate chance to field an offense as potent as the defense. And they’d still have nine more picks in the draft to fill other needs.
If Green-Beckham goes too early (late first, very early second) there’s not much you can do. I highly doubt they’d be willing to trade a future first or second rounder. In that scenario, you accept defeat and move on.
There aren’t many alternatives at receiver for the #63 pick. Devin Funchess provides similar size and mismatch value but he lacks DGB’s speed and upside. Tyler Lockett is a fiery, gritty receiver with major production and great bloodlines. Do they want to add another smaller receiver with an early pick? Or will they target someone like Ty Montgomery later on?
Could they make a bit of a surprise pick like Tre McBride or Chris Conley? You can’t rule it out. Why would you? Look at Justin Britt a year ago. They’ll take their guys instead of risking missing out altogether.
That’s likely to be their position on the offensive line too. If they can’t find a receiver at #63 they should be able to find an offensive lineman they like.
Mitch Morse is a better tackle than people recognise. He doesn’t get beat. He’ll move inside to center — but part of the reason he’s rising so much is the way he performed at tackle at Missouri. Seattle will likely have one chance and one chance only to draft him — and that’s at #63 (unless they move down a few spots — but only a few).
Ty Sambrailo gives them the best shot at a guard for today who could be a tackle tomorrow. Russell Okung’s contract ends after the 2015 season. Sambrailo is a better fit inside but he has the quick feet and the mobility to give it a go.
Seattle has to consider possible Okung replacements. For that reason Donovan Smith is an option. He has the length and size to play tackle. The problem is he has the game to be a guard-only. His tape, for example, doesn’t even get close to James Carpenter’s at Alabama (where he played left tackle). He’s had difficulty with conditioning too, which is surely a turn-off after all the issues with Carpenter, Michael Bowie and now Alvin Bailey.
They could also plug in a pure guard like A.J. Cann, Tre Jackson or Laken Tomlinson.
What about round three?
If they don’t take a receiver in round two, this could be the range where they go for it. Is one of McBride or Conely still on the board? Part of me feels if they don’t get a big wide out in round two they might just pass altogether. Seattle has enough developmental receivers and really needs an injection of pure class. An impact player. Not a raw-with-upside type who spends most of the year inactive ala Kevin Norwood.
Georgia Tech’s Darren Waller compares physically to Vincent Jackson. They had almost identical combine performances. It took Jackson four years to have an impact in the NFL — and Waller looks like a late developer. He doesn’t play with Jackson’s intensity either. Can you afford to sit and wait for a player like this? Seattle’s is bang in the middle of a Championship window.
Dezmin Lewis receives some attention — but he ran a 4.58 at 214lbs at the combine and jumped only a 33.5 inch vertical. He improved both tallies at his pro-day (as is the norm). How athletic is he? And coming from Central Arkansas, how long is he going to need to get up to NFL speed?
If they don’t go O-line at #63 it’s an option here too. Yes — there are nice options throughout rounds 4-5 (more on that later). However, this late third round pick gives the Seahawks a chance to ‘jump the queue’. That’s especially important if they traded up in round two using the early fourth rounder. We’ll run through some of the names in a bit — but if there’s an O-liner you have to have, this could be a valuable pick.
Don’t rule out a running back — either here or in round four. Marshawn Lynch could retire after this season. Robert Turbin is a free agent. Christine Michael has underwhelmed. A team that runs the ball as its core identity isn’t going to sleepwalk into 2016 thin at running back. This is a good class of runners. If they’ve identified one they like and the value fits — they might do it. People have scoffed at this suggestion in the past but it makes a ton of sense. Even if the pick ultimately only replaces Turbin next year, you’re making a significant cost saving. If the worst happens and you lose Lynch and Turbin, at least then you have Michael and a sophomore RB to compete. You’re not handcuffed into making an early pick at the position. Let’s not forget they drafted Michael as a ‘running back of the future’ in 2013, so they’re open to it.
Mike Davis visited with the Seahawks. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea — but he catches the ball well, has a somewhat physical style and he’s a classic one-cut-and-go type. He’s a scheme fit. He’s graded anywhere from round three to the later rounds. He could be one of the players they make sure they don’t leave the draft without.
Then there’s the defensive line option. This probably comes down to who’s left. Is Frank Clark still on the board? If so, he may be your O’Brien Schofield replacement. The options on the D-line only get thinner from here. Cassius Marsh returns from injury though and Schofield’s impact in 2014 was minimal. They’re unlikely to force anything and might be happy to add an athletic upside D-end later on (or even in UDFA).
Round four looking good
Whether the Seahawks pick two or three times in this round, they’re going to get at least a couple of role players. That’s all you can ask for on day three. There’s a host of offensive lineman they could target. I’ll probably miss out on some possible targets — there are that many.
During Tom Cable’s time in Seattle they’ve always had size at left guard. I can see why people are projecting SPARQ’d out athletic linemen for the Seahawks — but I still think their left guard next year is going to be big. Not 300lbs big — probably more like 320lbs big.
Oklahoma’s Daryl Williams could go in this range — a pumped-up team player with the size and length Seattle loves. Aside from Williams they might look at West Virginia’s Quinton Spain or Louisville’s Jamon Brown.
One other name to keep an eye on — Florida State’s Josue Matias. He’s 6-5 and 309lbs (but he can play bigger) with the all important tackle experience. Tom Cable attended FSU’s pro-day. Was he looking at Matias, Tre Jackson or both? Matias could be their guy. There’s a ton of upside there.
What about center? If this remains unaddressed, there are plenty of options. Shaq Mason looks like a very realistic possibility. Accomplished run blocker, very stout at the point. It’s hard to judge his pass-blocking skills in the triple-option but he has a lot of upside. Florida’s Max Garcia had an extremely impressive Senior Bowl and could go in this range. Kansas State’s B.J. Finney is a no-thrills, meat-and-potatoes type of blocker but he could be an early starter. Auburn’s Reese Dismukes is a good fit for a zone blocking team and could be available in the late fourth. San Diego State’s Terry Poole is a tackle convert who could work at guard or center.
If drafting a possible replacement for Okung is a priority, they could even look at tackles in round four. Green Bay found their starting LT (David Bakhtiari) in round four. NC State’s Rob Crisp is long, athletic and severely underrated. Vic Beasley’s probably going to go in the top ten this week. Nobody in college football handled him like Crisp. Virginia Tech’s Laurence Gibson has similar length and athleticism. He only has one years experience as a starter — but he flashed enough to warrant consideration as a developmental left tackle.
Whether it’s in round four or five — I expect Stanford’s Ty Montgomery to be a target. He’s visited with the Seahawks. He fits them like a glove. Incredibly competitive and smart. A driven character who lives for football. He can forge a role on the offense but more importantly — he’s a fantastic kick returner. He’ll have an impact in week one returning kicks, replacing fair-catch specialist Bryan Walters. Montgomery in Seattle seems like a perfect day-three match.
Round five and beyond
We could start to see more of a defensive focus here. This is where they’re likely to pluck a tall, rangy corner to put on the production line. Stanford’s Alex Carter might be off the board, but Texas Southern’s Tray Walker passes the size/speed/length test. Oklahoma’s Julian Wilson has ugly tape (really ugly at times) but he too fits Seattle’s corner criteria. Penn State’s Adrian Amos will be projected by many to play safety. The Seahawks could consider him a flex option. There are likely to be one or two obscure targets too.
When Frank Clark leaves the board they’re going to struggle to find explosive, physical pass rushers or ideal LEO’s. The closest thing might be Shaq Riddick — a victim of the bizarre three-man front at West Virginia that dogged Bruce Irvin’s final season with the Mountaineers. He’s tall and quick. He’d need some work. Watch Southern Miss defensive tackle Rakeem Nunez-Roches give Alabama fits and you can see why he might be a target. Tenn-Chat’s Derrick Lott is another to keep an eye on.
At safety USC’s Josh Shaw and Michigan State’s Kurtis Drummond are possibilities — although it’s unclear how much of a need they have at the position. How highly do they rate Dion Bailey? Can they find another UDFA to replace Jeron Johnson?
Georgia cornerback Damian Swann just finds a way to make plays. He’s a turnover machine who’s a good coach away from being a nice little project for someone. He only has 31-inch arms. Is it a deal breaker? Possibly.
There’s at least a chance they’ll draft a quarterback at some point. Plucking an UDFA like Blake Sims possibly makes more sense than blowing a pick on a camp body. He could be a seventh round option.
I could run through a list of athletic VMAC visits here as possible later round options. We all know they’ll focus on the SPARQ’d up remains of this draft later on and in UDFA. There’s no great skill in pointing at a list of names just because they’re athletic. You know what to expect. I’ll just link to this Chawk Talk piece that notes all the pre-draft visits. They’ll take a selection from that group.
Possible draft plan (without trading up)
Round 2 — WR
Round 3 — OL
Round 4 — RB, OL, KR/WR
Round 5 — CB, DL, OL
Round 6 — DL or CB, S
Round 7 — QB
Tomorrow is podcast day. Wednesday the final mock draft. Thursday — you know what happens Thursday.
Rob and others, unless Seattle trades up and picks DGB (which I am crossing my fingers for) I would want them to go draft the best available OG or C on their board at 63.
Just wanting to get the opinions of everyone, but who would you like to see in Green and Blue this year:
If we went pure Meat and Potatoes Guard:
AJ CANN
LAKEN TOMLINSON
TRE JACKSON
Or if we went Center:
HRONISS GRASU
ALI MARPET
MITCH MORSE
Or if you have any other OL prospects that can be selected at 63 who would make an excellent fit.
Just can’t wait till Draft Day!
I have to ho with Grasu…he sets you up at center potentially for the next 10 years…52 starts in college is impressive.
Reports are that Tre Jackson failed multiple team physicals due to a chronic knee issue and is likely to slide.
I’ll bet we over draft at least one player and my money is on Montgomery. Wouldn’t be surprised at all if he was the pick at 63.
I also like Jake Rodgers out of EWU. Saw his comp was to Breno Giacomini. Probably going in the late rounds. Another local player is Quayshawne Buckley out of Idaho. Athletic defensive tackle.
I think it’d be an enormous upset if Montgomery went in round 2. Would they reach in R3? Possibly. Not in round 2 though IMO.
Agreed…third round is even to early…maybe original fourth or fourth comp would be better
Rob,
i think Ty Montgomery will be perfect for Seahawks in R4/5 like you said. Which other teams will be looking for KR/PR in this draft (that we need to compete with)?
I’m not sure there is a more perfect Seahawks than Montgomery…I agree Alfred
I’ve not really studied that to be honest Alfred. I think there will be quite a few.
Not saying we should draft Montgomery that early. But we might. Justin Britt was a sixth round talent last year. I know its a different situation (perhaps not as different as you think). But if they like a player, they won’t hesitate to pull the trigger early.
There is going to be one guy where we say, WTF we could have got him two rounds later. That we are all up in arms about. My money is on Montgomery for that guy.
They took Britt at the end of 2 because they didn’t have a 3rd round pick (meaning their next chance to take him wouldn’t be until end of 4th). With picks in every round outside the first, and multiple picks in several, I imagine they will be able to tab players closer to their projected slot.
Cripes, they restrained themselves from taking Russell Wilson early cause they trusted their board and felt he would be there later. I guess my point is that, in my humble opinion, they wouldn’t overdraft by much especially for a guy like Montgomery
A lot of grouping of picks 95-112, 130-134, and 167-170. What I mean you just may be able the same person with either pick. Big dark area not covered thou in the middle between 134 to 167. The ever wonderful 5th that we have been so lucky with.
I don’t think PCJS considered Britt a 6th round talent. I think they identified him as the guy they wanted and took him in the 2nd believing he most likely would not still be available when their next pick came up at the end of the 4th round.
I think you’re exactly right. They mentioned that the talent at RT dropped off significantly after Britt, so they had to jump there or lose out on the position all together. In a re-draft I think they’d have waited and taken either Britt (if he was still there) or Tiny Richardson (since he was on the board when their 4th round pick came up). But they had to think both would be long gone. Britt worked out though, he is a grinder and will be a solid contributor and worthy of the pick.
With Montgomery, I think PC has to have him. He won’t get past the Hawks in round 3, you can put my name on it!
I was thinking the same thing reading this article. We all loved Bruce Irvin as a prospect and most of us mocked him to the Hawks at some point during the draft process. But it was always as a third rounder, a few brave people might have said the second, and then… He’s a first rounder. I’m not a fan of Montgomery but how does he compare to someone like Cordarelle Patterson? He went late first right?
Ty can at least run routes – and came from a pro set offense. Corrdarelle has had trouble because he didn’t run a full route tree. He may end up being okay, but he’ll need time. Ty can come in right away and be a returner.
I like Ty quite a bit – he needs to improve his concentration, but I’d be very happy if we drafted Ty.
I think his receiving can be improved, to the point that he is a steady contributor. A star, I’m sure.
Montogomery is my favorite prospect in this draft. He’s my selection at 63. Perfect fit for Seattle, I’ll bet he’s one of ‘their’ guys this year and I don’t think they want to miss out on him. Their early selections are always ‘swing for the fences’ types and that what Montgomery is.
Take him as a receiver. His special teams ability and offensive versatility are all just an added bonus.
They took others not wanting to miss out.
Thank you V12 for speaking out on this. He is being vilified for an occasional drop, but he makes a lot of plays and he is a decent receiver as well as being a return man. I hope that we end up with him at some point. As he develops as a receiver, I see him as close to a Larry Fitz or Anquan Boldin type of pass catcher. His strong body type with decent speed can make a difference.
Ty Montgomery has the potential to have the largest catch radius (Fitz) or become the toughest receiver (Boldin) in the NFL.
That is setting the bar much too high for any prospect.
Honestly on the QB front, I say why waste a pick on a nobody like Blake Sims who I don’t think can make an NFL throw. Considering Phila’s QB mess, I say why not shoot a 7th rounder or just all out wait for Matt Barkley to be cut. Phila isn’t keeping 4 QB’s and with Sanchez, Tebow and Bradford I think he is the low man on the totem pole. Just 3 years ago we were talking about wanting Barkley with our number 1 pick. He and Pete are familiar, and you know he has the pedigree. Just throwing it out there. HE would be cheap and I would feel comfortable with him on clipboard duty- WAY more comfortable than with any of the “college” QB’s like Sims, Hundley and their ilk.
I see no need for a QB in the main draft. UDFA, maybe, only for depth. If I’m PC, I call Barkley and wait.
I like Rakeem Cato as a 7th rounder/UDFA. Skinny as a twig, but good potential otherwise.
Good call.
Skinny as a twig is right LOL. But he made some nice plays when I watched him.
I agree – QB in the 7th seems unnecessary – UDFAs will be plenty.
Blake Sims is actually a very good fit. He can be damn near impissible to bring down in the pocket, great athlete, had to really battle, work hard, and really dedicate himself to get the trust of Alabama playera this year.
True he doesn’t have the greatest arm, but again this dude is not afraid of contact and really good on the move. Can’t ask for much better from a 7th or UDFA.
Out of all the QBs this year I like Sims the best for this offense.
Understandable. But we are looking for a backup quarterback. As a backup quarterback, I would rather have someone not as mobile who makes the throws. Not some college offense quarterback who will never translate. Boykin from KSU can run all over the field like RW but I wouldn’t trust him to complete a screen pass. Same thing with Sims. He benefitted from a strong running game and Cooper. He can’t make a single NFL throw. I think we should stop looking for mobile only qbs. I want someone who may not be as mobile as Russell but who can make all the throws. Jackson is not very mobile but he can make some throws. If Russell went down I don’t think it is his mobility that we would miss, but his accuracy. I wouldn’t waste a pick on any of these college offense hot dog card guys. I would still rather have Barkley after he gets cut
I like Cody Fajardo the best out of this class for the Hawks. He’s much more accurate than Sims and a very similar athlete. Much more experienced and younger as well.
He wpuld benefit from a strong running game and Jimmy Graham in Seattle. I actually do think they they’d miss RW’s mobility. Seatle wants ‘controlled chaos,’ behind the LOS. It is his greatest strength. Teams around the NFL scheme to keep him in the pocket. As we all know, once RW gets outsie of it he’s nearly unstoppable.
I think they’ll re-sign TJAX regardless, but getting a deveopmental QB is smart and forward thinking. Sims does need some work no doubt about that. Bevell’s offense is highly conceptualized in college based plays.
To me the Okung situation plays a big factor. Do you just draft a pure guard which you could get later, or do you draft a left tackle to play guard next year then move to left tackle in 2016.
Answer: pick up 2-3 guys who can play all positions, along with one more dedicated G/C. Work them in camp, and just see how they do.
Perhaps we should also remember that they have OLs Nate Isles and Drew Nowak in reserves.
And Gary Gilliam may show up at camp with 20 pounds of strategically added muscle mass and functional strength like Sweezy did last off season.
It’s hard to say, hell he might already be on the team. Garry Gilliam. After this next year he’ll be starting his 3rd season.
Laurence Gibson. Backup and learn from Okung.
This is why I prefer Josue Mathias to the other guard prospects, he could play LT (with a lot of work). Bailey can start at LG if he’s better in camp, so we don’t need a plug and play LG. Mathias and Gilliam could push each other, making both better hopefully. If Okung proves too expensive to sign, better to have an athlete like Mathias or Gilliam at LT with Bailey at LG than a pure guard and counting on Bailey at LT in my opinion.
I like Matias, but he’s an awful athlete if that’s what your looking for in a LT.
I just don’t see any LTs deep in this draft. Of course, I’m probably dead wrong, but next year’s class is loaded with LTs.
Ole Miss LT Laremy Tunsil, Alabama LT Cam Robinson, Baylor LT Spencer Drango, Wisconsin LT Tyler Marz, Stanford T Kyle Roberts, LSU T Jerald Hawkins, Texas A&M LT Joseph Cheek, Ohio St LT Taylor Decker, ND LT Ronnie Stanley, Oregon LT Tyler Johnstone, SMU T Bo Antunivoc, Michigan St LT Jack Conklin, Clemson LT Isaiah Battle, South Carolina T Brandon Shell, Texas Tech T Le’Raven Clark, UCLA LT Simon Goines, Colorado LT Stephane Nembot, and E Carolina has a really good one as well who’s name is escaping me.
Obviously Seattle won’t have a shot at some of these names, but my point is that the position is loaded and this doesn’t even include guys that will shoot up the boards like DJ Humphries, TJ Clemmings, and Jake Fisher did this year.
You know who’s fallen off our radar is Aundrey Walker. One of PC’s last OL recruits at USC.
I think he played around 310-315, which still may be a tad undersized for a Cable LG.
But he ran a 4.61 SS and 7.46 3C, and VJ’d 33.5″ at 6’5″ 292. He’s pretty much a PUDFA.
He’s definetly interesting as is E. Washington’s Jake Rodgers, Idaho’s Jesse Davis, Cincinnati’s Eric Lefeld, etc.
LeFeld interests me as a PUDFA or 7th rounder. Good size, his motor is unbelievable, just a flat-out fighter full of grit. He’s a good athlete, but has awful technique and his overall skill set needs some work.
I am trying very hard to find a reason to support a Funchess pick. When I see him practicing one on one against these college corners, I see some reasons for optimism. He does some things quite well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUe1HBpL7AM
On the other hand, is he intense on a consistent basis? Is he a student of the game? Does he have a fighter’s mentality? Does he play with the right amount of chip?
Other receivers rated below him seem to have these qualities. Dres Anderson is one of my top picks for deep threat (a different role), but he pretty clearly has the attack mentality and the confidence for the big moment. Dres grew up with it around his father, Flipper, and his game is similar in many ways.
Keep trying , you’ll hurt your brain.
I’m going to keep an eye on these five who had great pro day numbers on day three:
Darryl Roberts CB
Mark Glowinski OG
Kristjan Sokoli DT (possible OG convert)
Brian Parker TE
Nick Easton C
“Darryl Roberts CB
Mark Glowinski OG
Kristjan Sokoli DT (possible OG convert)”
These are three of my very favorite prospects in this draft. I think I like Mason more, but secretly hope we get both Glowinski and Mason.
Sokoli for OL convert. Roberts as the next Lane. Watching Roberts in run support — he tackles and plays like a member of the LOB. Brings it hard.
I am a big fan of Roberts. He has great ball skills, among just about everything else you want in a CB prospect.
Nice list JC. Big fan of Shaq Mason and ecspecially Kristjan Sokoli as well.
This might seem silly but I don’t like players who smile to much while they are playing ( like Shawn Alexander) …I kind of like players that are a little short of a six pack.
Like Funchess seems to do
Agreed. I never liked Alexander. He was soft from Jump Street. He benefited from an All-Galaxy O-Line more than Emmitt Smith. Always smiling- I don’t think I EVER saw Kenny Easley or Rufus Porter smile while they were playing
I think Alexander is still looking for his first yard after contact.
Hahaha He and Chris Warren are front runners for the lowest average Yards after contact in Seahawks history. But hey they are probably the leaders of the most career rushes of less than one yard. That is something positive. Maybe
That’s extremely silly. You don’t like guys that enjoy themselves or like having fun?
That is a glib question and really doesn’t follow our line of thinking. Clearly it was written that guys who are always smiling and smokin and jokin who never seem to play angry or with some aggression. Unless of course he is giving a post game I tee view sniveling about how his team “stabbed him in the back” after he didn’t get the rushing title. I would rather see players like Jack Tatum or Steve Hutchinson than Alexander. That was the point….
Post game interview….
There’s an exception to every rule. Hines Ward was a great player and he was smiling literally all the time.
I really feel confident we’re not going to be stupid enough to mortgage the draft for DGB, and I think there are probably a lot of OL prospects that Cable likes in Rd 4-5. I actually kind of doubt they go OL or WR in Rd 2.
Really disagree with not needing more WR prospects generally, too. We have ONE guy I’m actually sold on as a top 3 piece. The other guys are not cutting it and doubling down on them is a big mistake I can’t see happening the way Pete preaches competition. I fully expect them to add 2 guys, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if neither is over 6’2, and I’m sure everyone around here will hate those picks.
Who said they wouldn’t take more than one? I haven’t heard one person say they should draft just one….I agree they should get two…and if they are under 6’2 so be it.
Trading a fourth rounder (when you have three) or trading that fourth rounder and a 2016 third (when you have two) is not mortgaging a draft. Mortgaging a draft is the RGIII trade.
They know they need to get bigger at WR.
If we focus on grabbing The Man, someone who can do it all, then the likes of DGB, Jaelen Strong, etc would demand that aggressive trade up. Short of that, perhaps we are too focused on the individual all-around star. Besides Gronk, the Patriots have no star receivers, really. Even Edelman is a role specialist.
Missing out on the first round talents, the Hawks should target certain types.
Funchess/Dezmin Lewis- additional tall target = Sidney Rice
Dres Anderson/Conley-deep threat (to replace Kearse)
McBride/K Bell- intermediate game =Golden Tate
I don’t think they need another slot, no matter how quick, because Baldwin is there. I also think PRich belongs in the slot. “Ochoa Dougie” McNeil competes for deep threat. Norwood competes for Golden Tate job.
A genius offensive coordinator with such parts should have everything it takes for a potent system. Is Bevell that guy?
He can hold the clipboard, but let RW call most the plays or audible out of the stupid ones!
“Besides Gronk, the Patriots have no star receivers, really. Even Edelman is a role specialist.”
They have Tom Brady. Think that answers that!
Edelman may be a role specialist, but he is a fantastic role specialist.
The thing that makes me lean towards a trade up for DGB the most (as Rob mentioned) is the SB window and maximizing the opportunity. They can get some good receivers but not many would be day 1 starters.
Hawks have been willing to pay a premium for premium talent. DGB isn’t a proven talent (like Percy or Jimmy) but is he not worth an extra fourth?
A starting line-up of DGB, Doug and Jimmy with Lynch and Russ just seems like a line-up with a legit shot at SB.
I think trading the early fourth and a 2016 third for DGB would be an immensely successful trade. Because essentially you’ve traded Max Unger, a first rounder and a future third for Jimmy Graham and DGB. I think that’s a wildly successful addition to your team.
A slot player isn’t out of the question. Baldwin has miissed game time and sometimes played with injuries. It’s not easy being a smurf!!!! Linebackers pound on you, safety’s tee up on you and try to knock your head off.
I think there is room for a couple of wide receiver types, depending on who is available. Naturally we all want the tall receiver. A medium size utility receiver should be able to challenge Lockette and Kearse. And another smurf slot would be fine in rotation.
I agree Rob we would still have 10 picks this year and 9 next year likely with comp picks. A 4th this year and 3rd next year is definitely worth it to get DGB or even J Collins or E Harold if they get in range.
That’s just the thing–this is the perfect case of need, opportunity, calculated risk, talent drop off, and depth in the draft at other positions of need. Do what it takes. When you put it as us still having nine picks in the draft it’s even more of a must.
I would swear on the bible that in my quest to get a Phillip Dorsett I said I was willing to give up a 3 next year since we have a comp to replace it. Now you use my own trick against me to get a DGB.
I tell you I’d feel much better if we did that type of trade for a Jay Ajayi.
http://www.fanaticalyankee.com/2015-nfl-draft-scouting-reports/category/jay-ajayi
I do think they need to add to the WR mix, but I don’t necessarily think it needs to be a big WR. It could be a small, shifty, get-open, move-the-sticks kind of first down machine (like Edelman and Welker).
Strange – whenever I see 12s talk about WR’s that the team needs or should target, they specify that it should be a big guy. Remember that those tall guys don’t change direction as quickly and effectively as the shorter guys.
Of course, ideally you’d like a WR who is a good balance of those traits.
hmabdou, it is not either/or. The Hawks need WRs of EVERY type for a diversified attack. Ideally, they come out of this draft with 1 more tall target, 1 deep/vertical threat and 1 return specialist. I don’t think they need a slot, but one more with exceptional quickness (or better yet, a running back like that who can catch) would be fine.
These are each different skill sets. Of course the tall ones should not be expected to be as shifty as smurfs.
I think Ty Montgomery could be that slot you’re talking about. His size in the slot isn’t bad and he does best with the ball in his hands aka a running back in a receivers body. Plus he is a returner. Bonus.
I suspect they’re looking for size now. They’ve got shifty guys and will possibly add another in Montgomery.
http://www.fanaticalyankee.com/2015-nfl-draft-scouting-reports/category/dorial-green-beckham
Any chance they keep the late second and trade other picks to get an earlier 2?
Almost impossible Jeff.
Only if they are willing to trade next years #1 which I think would be a mistake.
I agree that it would take next year’s one. I wouldn’t rule that out, however. Given how long it’s been since Seattle picked in the first, PCJS is sending a pretty strong signal how little they value a very late first round pick as against a high second round. Depending on how the first round plays out, I could envision Washington trading their second next year in exchange for Seattle’s first next year and an extra later round pick this year. I keep hearing how McCloughan wants to accumulate draft picks. If he values quantity over quality and DGB slips into the second round, Seattle could find itself an attractive trade partner. McCloughan is a smart guy, so just quantity isn’t going to get it done.
If they see a great value at DE or DT at 63 I think they should pull the trigger. This DL rotation is 1 player away from lacking depth to be effective a la SB 49. They need to find the pass rusher that you need in the 4th quarter with the super bowl on the line that can help you get a stop and they need to find the receiver that will make a play with the super bowl on the line for the win(I’m sorry but it’s a fresh wound for all of us that needs to be healed through this draft). That’s thr mentality you’re looking for, the captains, the big time players. If they like Matthews, I think they wait and go DE early. Get the playmakers at DE and WR/KR fill out the OL in middle rounds because they tend to reach for middle round OL talent a little early anyways.
I can’t wait for this draft! Go Hawks
“This DL rotation is 1 player away from lacking depth to be effective a la SB 49”
I see this comment a lot. Worth noting here — not many teams have a starting duo as good as Bennett & Avril, let alone quality depth behind a duo like that. The Seahawks are also one injury at QB away from 8-8 or worse. When you are paying quality starters, sometimes you have to accept you won’t always have outstanding depth.
Right now the Seahawks don’t have a clear starting C or G. The options they have at DE are a lot better than their options at WR. If we’re worrying about the depth behind Bennett and Avril — if Jimmy G gets injured then once again you’re fielding the same group of WRs/TEs that motivated you to make that trade in the first place.
They might take a DE in round 2 — but IMO that’s because the player will be too high on their board. It can’t be because that is the biggest priority.
The depth comment can be made at several position groups, but I think one thing we can all agree on here at SDB is this defense has been at its best when it gets after the quarterback. The need to get to the quarterback is increasingly critical with every passing year so I think finding the rookie who could get us 8-10 sacks next year could make the difference.
What would really hurt me deep down inside is to see them take positions like RB when they could have used that pick to bolster either line group. I still think that by reinforcing this OL will allow our younger RB group to shine once their low mileage talent gets the opportunity. The RB position can wait for the ’16 draft IMO. Bolster the lines. Get your playmaking WR(or 2) in the kicking game depending on how they feel about matthews. Personally, I’m a HUGE Matthews fan and am impressed with his ability to rise to the occasion.
First 3 picks need to be WR, DL, OL in whatever order their board falls. Emphasis on an experienced C and a T we can kick inside to G.
The depth picks at DT/NG are needed for the off season after this, to transition from McDaniel and Mebane.
while I agree having both avril and bennet is great, ranking 20th in sacks is not. yes they can both be very disruptive, but too many times last year the pass rush disappeared. and although I would love to see marsh do great and hill stay healthy, to me they are both still question marks. if we can get Harold or jarret with our first pick trade or not, I would be very happy. with the limited talent pool of the d-line this year in the draft we better strike early and take advantage of the depth at other positions.
cant wait till Thursday go hawks
Agreed and ill add its been extremely hard for tho regime to find though the draft pass rushers. Irvin, almost counts. As Avril/bennett age it’ll only get harder. Rob sees a clear need at center but games were one when Unger was out. A lot of games. But Avril goes down and currently I can not count in the promise of hill as of yet, the line looks to me a like a bunch of solid guys all good for a few QB hurries and hits. Somehow they need to ease the pressure on the Lob…if Jarrett or harold are in reach id strike.
Finished 20th in sacks but still fielded the #1 defense in yards and scoring. Let’s not forget that.
Sacks definitely the end all be all. My argument is that if Seattle wants to keep that status they may to, not this year, start drafting dline because the whom composition is basically slighter older fa’s, Mebane (older), and young guys who past hill haven’t shown not even flashed yet.
Maybe this isn’t the year but I still think its going to be a priority
Worth noting though — this team hasn’t drafted particularly well for the D-line but they’ve done an excellent job bringing in vets and finding role players. I think that needs to be remembered.
Rob – I think you are spot on. Based on a limited sample size, the Seahawks have shown tendencies to look for veteran pass rushers and play-making receivers.
Ultimately, I guess it comes down to a question of where do you want to invest your cap $$? No doubt there are changes coming — we have really benefited from having a “cheap” QB, but those days are nearly over. So, which position groups are we going to fill with younger, cheaper draftees, and in which position groups are we going to “invest” our remaining cap?
Phil, you’ve nailed it (recognizing that you are agreeing with Rob, so Rob nailed it too). The veteran shuffle is certainly a possible answer, but as the cap dollars get tighter and Seattle keeps having a flood of draft picks, I expect they’ll keep trying to hit on draft picks while also being pragmatic enough to add veteran talent as necessary.
I’ve said it before: a great pass rusher has to be like a junk yard dog. They just keep coming after the quarterback no matter how many times you knock them to the ground. Thinking along those lines, Avril and Bennett are great players, but neither is a junk yard dog. So I would be excited if PC finds another pass rusher somewhere in the draft. Since we all agree that there are lots of offensive linemen and wide receivers available in the mid rounds, I wouldn’t be upset if PC found a defensive pass rusher at #63.
Sacks “Not,” the end all be all man that screws up the context!
its a good point, but just think how much more dominant wed be with a better pass rush. don’t get me wrong we have other needs(OL WR) but with the depth at those other positions, it just makes sense. and like peter said, our pass rush guys are getting a little older.
I contest that the primary thing that would prevent us from repeating as top scoring defense would be the inability to get to the QB. It might not warrant a pick at 63 but I would prefer it to be early.
Would love to see a 3-tech like Grady Jarrett at 63. He’d give us that INTERIOR pass rush that bothers every QB 🙂
Do you think Hunter will last until 63? I could see him at 63 if available.
Not to nitpick but I think Jarrett’s a 1T – more Mebane than McDaniel/Hill.
Okay just having fun here
SEA trade 63 + 167(R5) + Turbin –> ATL
SEA get 42 + 225(R7) (-1.75% pt value for SEA if Turbin is graded as pick #80 – an average R3 pick)
ATL needs a RB. They have only 2 backups on roster. If they want to reload via the draft, they’ll need to spend their R2 to land one of Ajayi or Coleman. They might wait for David Johnson or Corey Grant, but RB is too important a position to sit on without a bona fide starter on the roster. By trading for Turbin, a quantity well known to Quinn, they get a proven back with experience in their zbs system who can handle the starting role. They’ll need to extend him beyond next year, but he won’t cost significantly more than Ajayi/Coleman. They also get to move up from R7 to R5 where they can reload at TE or OG. This allows them to go EDGE in R1 and BPA @TE or OG in R2.
SEA trade 95(R3) + 130(R4) + 209(R6) –> PHI
SEA get 84 (-0.5% pt value for SEA)
Pretty much an even trade but Kelly gets a 3-fer.
Draft reset:
R2 – 42 – DGB
R3 – 84 – Morse/Sambrailo
R4 – 112 – Ty Montgomery
R4 – 134 – Mike Davis (Clark if he’s available)
R5 – 170 – David Irving
R6 – 180 – Crisp/Walker
R6 – 185 – Walker/Shirley
R6 – 214 – Shirley/??
R7 – 248 – ??
Why would Turbin be rated as a third rounder? An impending FA solid backup RB?
He was drafted in R4. I’d say he’s played as well as expected from a prospect taken at least a round higher.
Solid back up to Lynch. Sometime starter, defense-softener for Lynch. Great hands, good blocker. ATL doesn’t have anyone on roster to match. Ajayi/Coleman are interesting prospects, but they’re rookies.
The key words are impending FA. Why would they trade draft capital when they can just wait a year in which they aren’t going to be competitive anyway, then sign him.
I don’t know that they’d trade for him at all. But I offered a logical reason why they might. If they didn’t want to, it would be because they’re going in a different direction in the draft and at RB, not because they decided to tank this year and wait til next.
Whatever they do, they’re in a win-now mentality.
BTW Dimitrioff/Quinn don’t take Turbin expecting him to be the back of the future. Rather, he’s a capable and trustworthy placeholder, allowing them to kick the can down the road a season or two on that position and focusing now on some other major holes they have at EDGE, OG and TE in particular.
Just about every mock I’ve seen has ATL taking Beasley at 8. I think it’s entirely possible Quinn sees his BeastMode in Gurley and convinces Dimitrioff to take him. But more likely they go Beasley.
They really need a TE. They looked at Maxx Williams but are reportedly more interested in Clive Warford. 42 is a bit high for Warford. 63 is a better range value wise.
Don’t under estimate Clive Walford. I’ve been evaluating TE for 3 years now trying to find Zack Miller replacement. This guy is a true blue in-line TE who works for a living.
http://www.fanaticalyankee.com/2015-nfl-draft-scouting-reports/category/clive-walford
I was watching tape of P Dorsett and Walford stood out. Huge hands, wing span, decent blocking and ability to make tough contested catches. I like him better than Maxx Williams.
Pretty good one, Chawk.
Chawk – I’ve mentioned a similar deal with ATL, using Mebane as trade bait instead of Turbin. ATL seems to have so many needs and Quinn is familiar with the Seahawks, so it seems that a win/win trade could be negotiated.
The main problem with Mebane is his age and cost – both in terms of trade capital and cap hit. He’s a fine DT, and I’m sure Quinn would love to have him. But only if he could get him cheap. Besides, I don’t know for sure, but ATL doesn’t have a run defense problem so much as an utter lack of pass rush. Mebane wouldn’t be much of an improvement in pass rush. Are they looking for a 1T in this draft?
They really need a RB. They will have to draft one if they don’t trade for one. I believe Gurley could be their choice at 8, but probably not. They’ll probably go EDGE in R1, meaning they’ll have to go RB in R2 if they want to land one of the top non-Gurley/Gordon prospects. They’re particularly interested in Ajayi and Coleman. They’re also interested in David Johnson and Corey Grant, both interesting prospects, but are either a genuine #1 RB? Can they make a significant contribution in year 1?
Turbin isn’t ideal. He’s not likely to be in the pro bowl. But he’s proven himself as a capable, trusty starter. He’s a scheme fit, with lots of experience in ATL’s new offense. And most importantly of all, he’s roughly the same cost (slightly more) than Ajayi or Coleman would be if taken at 42.
Unlikely, but any scenario resulting in either DGB or Perriman in Seahawks blue would be fantastic.
FYI Shane Ray was pulled over by the Missouri Hwy Patrol for speeding. 35g of cannabis was found in the car.
It’s only a misdemeanor, but still. What does this do to his stock?
SMH
Yup, hard to believe. I remember on that segment that (I think) NFL Network did on him, his mom told him she hopes he’s never in prison like his dad was. Someone needs to guide this young man before he goes down the wrong path. Let’s hope things work out for him.
Not a whole lot.
Will fall into late first, early second IMO.
The most important thing you can do this week…. shut off the TV and shut out the noise.
Everything you hear is bogus and designed to throw everyone else off the draft scent.
Look at your own personal mock drafts from 1 month ago… and remember what you were looking for back then. This will most likely be how it will go down, not all the noise of the last week or so.
That, and stay out of Baltimore…
This is what I do just before the draft just throw out crazy stuff to add to Hype. Then you go back to before FA and look at your draft back then. I bought a notebook. Then you look for Rob’s 4th of May mock draft for
He had Marcus Peterson and was talking about Jalen Collins. Man how FA change the top part of the draft no 1st, We get a 4th, and We need to get a center. I actually liked my draft after FA and I still have about half of my roster on my current draft. I’m working for the last time we get to mock tweaking it a bit. Only now I have a better feel as to who will be in certain areas and the only pick I have that I worry about is 167 because of the gap there after 134. I hoping that the 5th is the lucky one and I get who I want.
Could not agree more Charlie. What’s actually funny is that about 5-6 of these VMAC visitors were guys that were on my list of potential Seahawks.
Their going to take who they want, when then they want, and will select guys a round or 2 early except for maybe 1 or 2 picks to ensure they get their guys.
I bet Seattle is foaming at the mouth/laughing manically about how some of these prospects are rated a round or two latrer then what they have them. Always seems to be their m.o.
And they will be smiling when the experts tell them that they took them too early.
Food for thought re: attempting to trade up for DGB.
SO far all the speculation has been on packaging that extra 4th. Any chance we use our 3rd (95) instead of the early 4th (112) as the extra ammo to move into position? That would pull us higher (maybe into the 40s) and still leave us all three 4ths to attack the Oline.
Keep in mind that 112 and 95 aren’t that far apart. May seem like it when we call one a R3 and the other a R4.
63 + 95 would get to about 50, not far enough.
Rob great breakdown to prep for draft.
Do you really think we pass on a developmental WR if we miss on DGB? I still view that position group as our weakest with our only legit WRs bein Baldwin and perhaps Matthews. Kearse is a #4 / special teams guy at best. I know Russel trusts him but I don’t think he is worth the $2.3 million tender. I think Norwood could take a leap and if Matthews is the guy we saw a the SB then we will be fine but those are big ifs.
I really hope we trade up for DGB but if not. I hope we can get either Conely and Montgomery in the 4th or Mcbride in the 4th and Smelter in the 6th.
Our passing game is going to have to improve once Lynch retires so now is the time to draft WR with the talent to be ready in 1-2 years.
“Do you really think we pass on a developmental WR if we miss on DGB?”
Very possible. Seattle is in the middle of a championship window and needs an injection of talent at WR — not another guy who’s inactive every week. McBride is one to watch at a certain point IMO, and they did visit with Conley. But not too early.
I agree about not having the flexibility to tie up a roster spot to tie up on a straight developmental guy, but I wonder if a PUP candidate like Smelter isn’t an attractive alternative. There are several other possibilities as well. Obviously being on the PUP limits the developmental benefits of the year, but it also has the flexibility of allowing a guy to be activated mid-season if injuries strike the receiving corp and the player is showing signs of getting it. For that to work, the player would also ideally also being a special teams contributor. As best I can tell, Norwood’s rookie season (and Michael’s first two years) was hampered by not being activated because he didn’t play special teams. Of course, if PRich is PUP, that reduces the likelihood that the rookie would ever be activated.
Where do you see Haoli Kahala being taken? Noticed this write up at Grantland that was very effusive: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/living-on-the-edge-breaking-down-the-top-four-pass-rushers-in-the-2015-draft-class/.
Wondered whether he might be a good fit for the Hawks.
Donovan, I think I may be one of the few here who think Kikaha would be a fit for the Hawks. People don’t think he can stay healthy and say he’s too slow. I see the best pure pass rusher in this draft who, in the right system, is a difference maker. Perhaps he is situational only, but as long as the other needs are met, why not.
Hard to say where he goes. Could be as early as rd. 3 or he could drop off the draft entirely.
He’s glacial. 4.9 40, something in that range. Not a good 10 split either. Done an ACL twice already too. I reckon he’ll be an UDFA. All the technique in the world, but at some point the physical limitations just become too much.
That piece makes a relevant comparison to Terrell Suggs, who ran a similar 40 time after a tremendously productive college career. Rob Ninkovich (another comparison I’ve seen some places) ran a 4.93.
Or take a Chris Clemons, who ran a 4.68 at the combine, but at 236 lbs (and had a 1.72 10-yd split to Kikaha’s 1.71). By the time he got to Seattle 7 years later I’m sure he wasn’t running much faster (if any) than a 4.9…some guys the pass-rush ability just trumps the physical athleticism.
Kikaha is undersized for 4-3 end and slow for 3-4 OLB, but he had the best hand use and technique and was the most productive pass-rusher in college football. If there’s something degenerative in his knees and the doctors take him off the board it’s one thing, but otherwise he’s going to be a real contributor as a nickel rush specialist for someone.
Too slow for Seattle, lacks length. I think he’s a late rounder at best.
As the pre-draft process has gone on, I’ve grown more and more fond of the notion of drafting Devin Smith. No idea if he will be available at 63 or in trade territory, but I like the speed/hands/high point potential.
One thought, the O Line targets we covet don’t have to be there at 95. We’ve spent a lot of time focusing on trade ups in Round 2, but there is every possibility that they use a 5th (or a 6th and 7th) to slide up in Round 3 to target a priority OL prospect. OR even one of the last great DL targets. Man I hate the last week of waiting!
This years big surprise, is they use 63 to pick up a Mike and little Wagner walk, Id hate it but it could happen. Just got to good to expensive.
Wagner is as important as Thomas, Chancellor and Sherman in my opinion. He’s such a fast to the ball backer and he loves being a Seahawk. I believe that Wright and or Irvin though I want to keep them both are less valuable to the team. Proof being when Wagner was out for I believe 5 games our defense was not the same. With that in mind if need be Atlanta or Jacksonville would take Wright and his contract because don’t get me wrong Wright is worth his contract. He did get beat on the gronkowski
Oops Continued – play but we all saw that one comming and Wright was so close on that touchdown. I’m personally not worried about loosing Bobby. That would really suck if we did.
It was not just BWAGZ why this defense suffered. An injured Bam Bam was maybe more detrimental.
It’s highly unlikely smitty. The positional value isn’t great, there isn’t any linebacker fast enough in this draft to match Seattle’s scheme. Plus it’d be like Carolina letting Kuechly walk just to replace him here.
I keep wondering if we should read more into the fact that Irvin’s 5th year option hasn’t been picked up yet. I like the way he is producing, but could he be a casualty of the $$ redistribution that has to occur after Wilson gets his new contract?
* * * *
True story — my wife and I travel to Charlotte to see last year’s game. We are staying in the same hotel as the Seahawks. Riding in the elevator, the door opens and Irvin steps in. My mouth engages before my brain and I say, “Hi Michael. Go Hawks”. He frowns at me and gets off at the next floor. I turn to my wife and say, “I wonder why he was so grumpy?” She says, “Because his name is Bruce ….”
Matthew Wells may be this year’s Kevin Pierre-Louis.
Late bloomer for Mississippi State. Had a ridiculous number of TFLs (led team), despite being used heavily in coverage.
Ran 4.44 at the Bulldogs pro day.
Can see him as a late 6th/early 7th round guy for Seattle. We always seem to take some guy not on the draftable list. This is my prediction for 2015.
Jarhead i agree with you, i have been waiting for all the Barkley talk to start since all the Wilson contract situation has started. I know he’s no Wilson not many are, but he was Pete’s golden boy at one time and could be had on the cheap, especially with no Tjack signed as of yet.
Does anybody know the arm length for Deshazor Everett, CB / Tx A&M? 6’0 193 lbs. His style is a lot like Byron Maxwell. He’s being shown as a 6th rounder – undrafted, but he looks like a gamer
Rob Rang has him at 5’11” with 31 inch arms
Thank you CC!
On the CBS draft site – they have updated their prospect list to include arm length; arm span and the like. It is quite complete – I’ve been referencing a lot – as I try to match wits (unsuccessfully) with the draft minds of the Seahawks.
I wonder who on this board would give up our 63rd pick for a a early/mid 4th rounder and a 2nd next year. If it happens that we cannot get ‘our guy’ who would be up for it.
Rob, one of your best write-ups yet. You surely make the off-season come alive for the 12’s. We are very fortunate to have you in the Seahawks nation!
I would be all for a trade such as you describe: our #63, plus the early R4 pick, plus next year’s
R3, for DGB… do that in a heartbeat, especially as you say, since we have an extra R3 next year any way as compensation for Maxwell.
An interesting note from the media today:
– the NFL Network did a piece on selected draft prospects, including DGB and Ali Marpet. DGB came across well, but with his history, you always worry and have to just roll the dice on his elite potential. He is as physically talented as it is possible for a SE to be. Marpet, on the other hand, is an ideal guy. Tough, smart, dedicated, superior in athletic ability, etc, etc. He would be a great consolation prize in R2 if John can’t swing the DBG deal. (I hope we all realize there is a 50/50 chance that, if we don’t land DGB, in two years we will be thanking our lucky stars for the deal that was not made. side note: DGB’s demon was just made legal in our state…. wonderful)
– If we come away with either of Tre McBride or Ty Montgomery, I will be thrilled. I still see McBride as the better prospect… significantly quicker – 4.39 vs 4.5 – and better receiver skills as well. But Montgomery is electric as a returner, so we can’t go wrong either way.
Tre or Ty – either would be great!
Thanks for the kind words James. I’m a big fan of McBride too.
Great take on the draft Rob. This silly season is one of my favorite times of the nfl calander. I find it some what amusing to read about Ty Montgomery being drooled over on this blog. Early in this process I identified him as a seahawky player and was resoundingly belittled by the readers on this site. My reasoning at the time was with a team as complete as this they could afford to draft a “return ” specialist. Find a player who does 1 thing exceptionaly well and coach him up is the norm for this brain trust. Hope we get him is all i can say.
Everyone thinks of Montgomery as a return specialist because he led the nation in kick and punt returns. What jumps out on his film is that he is as multi purpose back for Stanford that tilts the field as a receiver and runner. He had 39 carries for 334 yards, which is an average of 8.6 yards per touch from scrimmage during his career. My fear is we may wait too long to draft him.
Ray, don’t feel bad my man. I felt the same way when I brought up Montgomery as well. Finding guys that do thing uniquelly or exceptionally well is what I try to identify just like you do.
HLC, that’s my feeling too. He’s a better receiver than given credit for and has just as much potential as any receiver in this class outside of DGB, Cooper, Kevin White, and DeVante Parker. That’s why I have him at 63. He just screams ‘Seahawk,’ totaly seems like he’s their guy this year. Use him as a combo of Golden Tate and Percy Harvin, give Darrell Bevell the type of weapon he’s been crying out for and watch this offense become one of the most unique in professional football.
With you here, brother.
I like Montgomery but I have no doubts Bevell will utilize him poorly. Watch the Dallas game last year with Harvin to see the worst playcalling in Seahawks history.
I’m still very down on Montgomery.
Not only do I think he’s a sub par college WR. But even when I examine his returns, I’m not seeing a player who has fantastic movement skills to shake guys in position. Almost all of his signature returns, he goes virtually untouched with outstanding special teams blocking.
I don’t see him having great sudden burst or wriggle. What he does do, is make decisive moves early and gets North-South quickly. He’s got good size, but lack of burst is a big concern for me at the pro level.
I see him as a guy who will reliably get 6-9 yards on a punt return, but if blocking isn’t great — no chance of more.
Despite his leading the nation in that role — I don’t see a tool set that will translate to the next level to the same degree. He clearly has the instinct for returning kicks. And it’s entirely possible that he simply makes returns look too easy. But the returns I see him taking all the way are blocked incredibly well. Not something one can expect a great deal of at the pro level.
John Schneider is a genius!
He wasn’t in Missouri kicking the tires on DGB back in March. Nope, he dipped into old Petey’s stash and then went and planted a neatly wrapped little care package of joy in Shane Ray’s automobile to be conveniently discovered a few days before the draft.
Talk about the proverbial smokescreen.
All hail the genius of Schneider!!
BTW, how did he know for sure it was Shane Ray’s car?
They have intel on every major college. undercover agents willing to propel the SEAHAWKS to victory by any means necessary.
Of course, John and Pete would not do this, but I wonder about some of these teams? Certainly, if NE wanted a guy, I would not put this past them. Teams have “security” crawling all over these top prospects, having them followed around the clock. What a coincidence that some of them happen to get “pulled over” at such an inopportune moment. Why, one would almost think certain teams are trying to manipulate the draft. The agents of these guys need to keep them under lock and key these last few weeks.
Someone should check his tire pressure, then we’ll know if it’s the Patriots or not…
Now that was funny David!
Yes, that was.
Thanks fellas,
Anything I can do to lighten up the off-season.
GO HAWKS!
Sammie Coates reminds me of Terrell Owens physically not personality wise thankfully. Terrel was the 89th player taken in the 3rd rd in 1996. So there must have been some questions about his catching ability as well. Coates is still a posibility along with Montgomery, and Conley. I would be happy with any two of them and a quick guy like Diggs for our reciever choices. O line Marpet, Morse, and Sambrillo I hope for one or two of those guys as well. I do have a feeling John Schneider is going to make some trades to get his guys. The anticipation is almost at an end!
Owens didn’t play at a major program. He went to UT Chattanooga and would be comparable to someone like Tre Mcbride in regards to draft value with upside. You could also argue Jerry Rice was from the same boat, but Rice also held all kinds of records from college.
Thanks for the info David! I would be happy with Tre Mcbride also, alot of people on this blog talk highly of him.
Coates does look like Terrell Owens, who also had some bad habits.
Coates vs. McBride is a weird one. Coates has great untapped potential, that he may never tap. McBride is a polished, smooth technician who just does a lot of things well, but nothing spectacularly. He doesn’t seem to have much ceiling left. Just very solid. I have to admit, I’d be more excited with Coates, and more terrified.
I would say it was more facts than questions. TO always struggled with drops but made so many big plays it cancelled out all that. He is going to the HOF for what he could do and did do, not for what he couldn’t do (sound familiar?) that’s why Coates intrigues me. The problem is that with limited targets in this offense the drops become a bigger issue. It’s okay to have 2 or 3 drops a game if you are TO in your prime and regularly get more than ten targets a game, but if you only get 3 or 4 targets and drop one of them? It’s magnified.
I’m just still not convinced that there’s a big difference between a Mike Davis in the 4th and a Josh Robinson (or whoever) in the 6th as a depth RB (or for that matter that there’s that much difference between either of them and Chris Polk for the minimum). Whereas I think there will be a big dropoff between the guys available at DT (maybe Rakeem Nunez-Roches, Christian Covington, Gabe Wright) or CB (maybe an Alex Carter, IEO, or Senquez Golston) in the 4th to the leftovers in the 6th.
I know that that PC/JS will grab their guys, but I’ll be disappointed if there’s a RB pick early on Day 3. To me that’s still something easily addressed in 6th/7th/UDFA/FA, and I hope they use the 4th rounders on guys where there’s a better match of need and value.
Sorry to keep harping on this but I guess we’ll see in a few days which side the FO agrees with. 🙂
Think you have to adjust higher round-wise. Robinson will be gone in the fourth, IMO. One of those players where teams see him better than pundits.
Take a look at film of Tyler Vargas (Yale). He is a mini beast mode, in my view. Catches well, blocks, is intelligent (Pre-med major), has athletic parents, and was incredibly productive in his league. As a late round pick he would be an asset in the locker room, and could become a good player over time.
What does everyone think of Jeremy Langford RB MSU? When I watched him play on occasion and then at the combine, I made a note that he looked mini beast like – he can pass block and I had him on my radar. I wish he had some returner skills.
Also – is there a reason someone like CMike doesn’t work as a returner? Is it hard to become a returner if you haven’t done it earlier in your career? With his speed, it would have seemed like a no brainer.
Mike Rob said on NFL network that this was the RB that most stood out for him. I would like to think he knows a RB when he sees one.
There will be a lot of running backs available in the 6th round or later. Check out Zach Zenner, played for South Dakota State, 337 rushs for 2019 yards and 22 touchdowns. Also caught 28 passes for another 331 yards. Small college guy that could be a gem in the rough.
Any love for Anthony Chickillo in the 4th? I think he could be a great value depending on where he goes. Bring him in to compete with Marsh.
I understand all the talk and rationale regarding trading up for DGB, but the one guy I would rather trade up for is Grady Jarrett. Seems like we should be able to fill our OL and WR needs in later rounds… I think Jarrett could help to return our DL to its 2013 form.
One thing that would concern me is Jarretts short arms.
That tempers my hopes for a vast majority of this sites mock drafts….there are literally dozens of good/great players that viewed differently by seattle could be great but height/arm length scratches them off the board.
Jarrett/Cooper (wsu DT)
I see a lot of love for Senquez Goldson here…he’s no where near the requirements for size.
Kikaha hiskies fans obviously love him, but his length and ten yard splits are not near the seahawks wheelhouse.
Maybe Seattle is smarter then all the rest of us but sometimes I wish they would budge on type
Chickillo doesn’t impress me. Just okay. Not a pass rusher.
Rob or anyone else could you tell me where a trade of these picks could possible get me up to.
167+181 =?
167+248 =?
167+181+248=?
167+181=127
248 has less than 1pt value so essentially no trade value
Wow that far up. Nice to know.
That is an interesting scenario to think about. This blog has discussed moving one of our 4ths to move up in the 2nd, but we also have another cluster at 167, 170 (can’t be traded), and 181. I could see a move like that, especially if we do trade 112 to move up in the 2nd but still want to load up in the 4th.
63 + 112 for something around 50 and 167 + 181 for something around 127 would leave us picking:
mid-2nd (~50)
late-3rd (95)
late-4th x3 (~127, 130, 134)
late-5th (170)
late-6th x2 (209, 214)
late-7th (248)
Still 9 total picks and 5 in the top 4 rounds and would let us go after an upside guy in the 2nd while still hitting that interior OL value sweet spot hard.
I’m thinking 131 to 150 would be perfect for what I want to do with 167+181.
Explanation of JJ’s point chart.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/28/draft-trades-still-follow-the-chart/
Grady Jarrett at 63 would be a STEAL, IMHO. He’s basically a poor man’s Aaron Donald.
Not done a mock this year where he’s been available at #63.
@GradyJarrett
I ain’t a poor mans nobody. I am Grady Jarrett. You better get right.
I agree with you on several of these Rob – but the only WR I see them taking in round 2 is DGB, so if he isn’t available, I see OL. Here’s my take
Round 2 — DGB or OL
Round 3 — DL
Round 4 — OL, KR/WR – and second WR if no DGB
Round 5 — RB, LB,
Round 6 — OL, 2 DBs
Round 7 — DL
This feels right to me. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see that 3rd round DL turn out to be Frank Clark.
Checking out a couple of 7 rd mocks, and consensus seems to be that we need WRs. ANY WRs. Both had us taking THREE, and one had both Tre McBride and Ty Montgomery (which seems a bit redundant). I’m VERY curious to see what they do with WR. I’m not so sure they’re hung up about bringing in height with Graham, Matthews, and Willson. Not that I don’t think they’ll jump on it if the value’s there, but I doubt they force it. I could definitely see McBride/Taylor or Montgomery/Waller or Bell/Conley or something, but pretty much nothing they do with the WR picks will surprise me except passing entirely.
Thank God I only have to wait a few more days to find out, the suspense is killing me.
You know I actually sick of hearing about Seattle’s WR. This is a fact. That group has been to 2 super bowls and they practice everyday against the best secondary in the NFL. It won’t be easy to break in to that group.
I’m even going to give big old Jimmy some advice. I don’t expect him to block in line cause he’s just to tall to get leverage. However if he doesn’t learn to pan cake the guy he’s assigned to block or the guy that has his coverage. He won’t earn the respect of that locker room. So when your looking for a receiver for your mock he at least better be ready to block. Those guys take great pride that they all do it very good. After all this is a running team.
Very good points Madmark which for some of us lead to Kenny Bell. From what I’ve read on here some of you think he is an outstanding blocking wide out.
I am a huge fan of Kenny Bell. He is a very good blocker, and he is a crafty and tough football player with shiftiness and deceptive speed, technically gifted. Smart, team first, the ideal #2 receiver, The problem is, I don’t think the Hawks need another role player. Do you stockpile more #2 or #3 type WRs on a roster that already has about three of them?
I’m going to say yes, stockpile more #2 and #3 because Russell Wilson has never had a number one receiver, and his throwing habits are to spread the ball around. I just don’t see that changing. At best we will have a situation like Baldwin and Tate where the two are dueling for #1 and the leader gets 800-1000 yards receiving.
Alaska, the scenario I don’t want to see repeated again: slot WRs who belong in the slot taking on outside receiving roles that they don’t do well. It is not a matter of having a feature #1 WR who can do it all, although that would be nice (they are in rd.1). Roles. They need a taller possession receiver like Sid Rice was. They need a crafty intermediate z type that Golden Tate was. They need a deep threat. That is three job openings.
Baldwin can do the slot.
Within those roles, they need receivers who match what RW does. He has a weird passing motion. He’s short. Pile up the wrong kind of depth, and the passing attack won’t be any different or better.
Why wouldn’t you grab another number 2 to compete with Kearse and Lockett who are on 1 year contracts. Locket is on this team because he blocks really good. On beastquake 2nd run towards the end zone you see Lockett race in diverting 1 player away from the action. He continues on and plows into 2 guys taking them out of bounds so they can no longer could pursue and just as Lynch dives in to the end zone we see Locket run into view going for another block on the guy he diverted. It’s this type of hustle that any WR who wants to make here will have to have. Kenny Bell has it but does DGB? I’d take Bell any day. He perfect for Seattle’s offensive style. He truly is a team player and would fit in day 1.
Madmark, they should bring in WRs to not only compete with but replace Kearse and Lockette. Replace them. Kearse is an inconsistent deep threat who is otherwise just a complementary WR, not a #2. Lockette is a fast special teamer, not much more. He is also not a #2.
What they shouldn’t do is replicate Baldwin, who is more a true #2 and a slot WR.
This is my Feeling on the DGB thing. If you believe he’s a 1st round talent. Don’t waste a 2nd and a 4th round pick this year and a 3rd next year for the guy in a draft where those picks are valuable for rebuilding a depleted OL. If you feel the window to win is small then use your 1st round pick and go get him. It’s most likely going to be a late 1st round pick to begin with. RB position could possibly be addressed with a 2nd rounder next year since that position seems to slide in this pass happy league. Consider and think about this also. How much longer do you think PC will continue coaching at his age? I think 3-5 years. To me its a win now so you want the guy step up.
Well said Mark. I’m guessing that’s why Seattle wants the ‘survivior’ or ‘underdog’ mentality in their wideouts. Just flat-out grit. Guys that know what being part of a team means, guys that will put other’s before themselves, guys that just want to compete on a week in, week out basis. Prospects that have overcome some real adversity in life.
Madmark, this WR group has not been to two Super Bowls. The most important WRs were lost in 2014: Sidney Rice and Golden Tate. Include Harvin, who was supposed to be part of it.
The remaining 2014 WRs struggled. We would not be here talking about it if that were not the case. Baldwin and Kearse played in the wrong roles, beyond their capabilities, and it showed. Both got ahead of themselves, and Baldwin especially became arrogant. PRich got hurt. Matthews made some plays in one game.
Talented prospects will definitely compete, and the right ones can and should supplant them. Nobody should be guaranteed a starting job. Matthews, Norwood and McNeil should get their opportunities as well.
But, is DGB any more of a a question mark than Norwood or Matthews? Is any rookie going to show the light to the guys we have? Remember that Norwood is a fairly large receiver, and caught everything thrown his way. Remember that Matthews when challenged to make plays in the biggest game of his career (not sure what he had to do in Canada) made a series of big plays.
It is easy to look at the talent of players in the draft, but remember, that last years players are still trying to make a place. I don’t remember many rookies who were as sure with the ball as Norwood, last year, so I have great hopes to see him become an element.
It is easy to think that a big infusion of rookies is going to make a big difference, but I am more thinking that our vets will do most of it, while our rookies develop depth. That said, it would be nice if a rookie offensive lineman asserts himself.
Talent has to play a part too though. There’s a reason why DGB was touted as a top-ten pick before the trouble at Mizzou.
Receiver is generally a position where draft position actually has some reflection of NFL production. How many #1 receivers in the league came from the late rounds, let alone were un-drafted free agents? The best receiver Seattle has drafted in the PCJS era was a 2nd rounder.
You may like our receivers, but they aren’t difference makers. There’s a reason DGB is projected as a first round talent and Kearse, Matthews and Baldwin went un-drafted. I’d be surprised if there’s another team in the league who has less draft capitol invested into their receiving corp. I’d also be shocked if there were a team in the league that would trade their receivers for ours.
DGB may not blow the doors off his first year, though there’s every chance he could. He very well might produce like Norwood or Matthews, but there’s a good chance he could put up Kelvin Benjamin or Jarvis Landry numbrrs. If you want a true difference maker at WR, you have to pay for it. DGB is probably our best shot at one this year and our best shot at improving the WR group for the long term.
agreed.
the funny thing is that seattle actually has a crapload of draft capital “invested” in WR. it’s just that they’ve been investing it in magic beans.
2010 – 2nd (Golden Tate), 7th (Jameson Konz)
2011 – 4th (Kris Durham)
2012 – None! Probably not coincidence that it’s their greatest draft class.
2013 – 1st (Percy Harvin), 4th (Chris Harper), 7th (Percy Harvin trade)
2014 – 2nd (Paul Richardson), 3rd (Percy Harvin trade), 4th (Kevin Norwood)
2015 – 1st (Jimmy Graham), 2nd/3rd? (TBD)
tate is the only one of the PCJS WR draft picks who can play, and they pissed him away for percy. their inability to hit on this position group, and the picks they’ve had to keep firing at it as a result, might end up being the thing we talk about wondering why those great 2010s seahawks teams never quite became the team of the decade.
tate is the only one of the PCJS WR draft picks who can play,
Tate didn’t just walk in here and start right away. He returned punts to get himself in uniform and it really wasn’t till the end of the 2year that looked like he would breakout the next year like he did. Point is Seattle Paul Richardson saw way more passes in his first year then Tate every did. If your good you’ll be on that field, if your talented and improving you’ll stick around, and if you just don’t have it your gone.
“tate is the only one of the PCJS WR draft picks who can play”
Too early to give up on P-Rich, Norwood and Jimmy.
Both the 2013 and 2011 had very shallow WR talent pools.
2011 top 6 picks had 2 good receivers in Green and julio. Outside of that only 1 good receiver in Randall cobb in the second.
2013 have lots of under performers in the 1st (Austin and Patterson) and really not many solid receivers past DeAndre Hopkins.
Percy was their biggest misstep but they almost managed to sidestep that one had P-Rich not been hurt and had a healthier LOB and D-Line.
Jimmy can obviously play. I’ll grant that p-rich had a moment or two pre-injury, but hell Jermaine Kearse has had his moments, too. At the end of the day, he seems like JAG. (9.3 yards/reception?) Why else are we having this conversation? WR was the team’s big need last year, in a draft class of unprecedented quality for the position, and 12 months later we’re still looking for that guy.
The Norwood love I’ll never understand. The guy turns 26 years old this year, and he has fewer than 100 competitive receptions since the Bush administration. He might be the first prospect whose ceiling is lower than his floor.
That “past DeAndre Hopkins” is quite a caveat … since the dude was available when they would have picked, had they valued their first rounder. The butterfly effect from having just sat tight and picked Hopkins there instead of doing the Percy debacle is kind of interesting to think about. They’d have a rising #1 WR, could have re-signed Tate, and WR would look like a strength. So maybe given that, they instead draft Bitonio last year, don’t have to reach for Britt, keep Max Unger, and OL would look like a strength too … and they’d have pick #31 (or more likely 32) to use with discretion.
Obviously that’s hindsight rosterbation, but hey … if not this week, then when?
Great post Lurker
totally agree on Norwood.
For me ultimately, this team lacks a true mismatch receiver (not counting the jimmy graham.) All of them are role players. I want a stud for our QB to throw to. I want a player that, on 3rd and 6 in the 4th qtr everyone in the stadium know the ball is going to and there’s nothing the other team can do about it.
I watch my fair share of cowboy games down here in Dallas so I’ve been exposed to what a true mismatch receiver can do. There are things that Dez can do that no one on the Seahawks could dream of doing, but I think DGB actually has a shot at doing those kinds of things.
I will ignore the DeAndre Hopkins scenario as there was no way to guarantee he would be available when the Hawks picked (pre-draft) and that Percy would be such a huge bust (post draft). Just in the way I wouldn’t make the case that the Hawks don’t win the superbowl without Percy.
I am not satisfied with the Hawks receiving corp but I also don’t think P-Rich is JAG and that Norwood is already a bust without seeing the field much. Perhaps by the end of 2015 but it’s way too early to give up on them.
The question is, should John and Pete continue to do what they do best, which is construct an elite roster top to bottom, filled with brilliant mid-round finds; or continue to try to fix what they keep breaking over and over? The draft capital, and FA waste (see G. Tate), expended on the WR position, led to a situation in the Super Bowl where the lack of depth cost a championship. It is not a coincidence that Seattle’s two best WRs were UDFAs! Pete and John simply mis-fire in their thinking about WRs (interesting that Pete is a DB guy). The competitive fire, team first attitude, and on-field production that they locate so brilliantly at almost all other positions is somehow tossed aside in the search for the elusive SE. Perhaps they can’t see beyond the athletic talent of some WRs and fail to notice the diva tendencies? This mis-fire happens to a lesser degree at OL as well, mainly because they seem to defer to Tom Cable in the draft picks and don’t stay with the formula that works so well on the D side of the ball. Logic says that Seattle should stick with what they do best, go only for those players who fit the formula of: competitive fire, will to win, unique athletic talent, and uber sparq numbers. I’m afraid that Pete will be bluffed into going all-in on DGB, who will subsequently go “up-in-smoke” at the cost of the elite top to bottom roster over the next few years. I say, be happy that Jimmy Graham fell into your lap, invest lower draft capital in a bunch of WRs who can sort it out on the field, and stock the roster with ‘Seahawky’ players, such as Ali Marpet, Hroniss Grasu, Tre McBride, etc.
I think this is an interesting point to think about — I’d put it as, are we looking for the wrong things in our WRs? Or, have the Seahawky attributes that the team has valued (and profited from) in other positions been a bad way to approach WR?
Ultimately there are really just a few data points, for hits or misses, throughout the roster, so it’s hard to state it firmly, but if you look at the mid/high WR picks PCJS have spent, they’ve gone
2 guys of hulking physical stature in the 4th round (Kris Durham, Chris Harper)
1 small guy with incredible jets in P-Rich
Percy Harvin who’s obviously SPARQ’ed the f up (and can also obviously play, with a whole bucket of “buts”)
Their clear hit, Tate, is a guy who to my understanding they were not specifically targeting but felt that he was just too much of a value when he fell into their laps. Heck, Baldwin and Kearse for that matter too … those are the guys who have scratched out their roster places, not the Durhams and Harpers.
So is it possible that the team’s confidence in freaky athletic dominance translating into production is better-founded at other positions than it is at WR?
Tate was a punt returner and I Leon Washington was a great kick returner but had problems with the punts. Mostly thou was Tate’s YAC average was crazy.
If anything, the definition of “Seahawky” is flexible. It can be misused in both directions. Emphasize too much SPARQ without the right attitude, and that is not a good fit. Emphasize the attitude too much, and you get a great locker room guy who may not be able to play, won’t be a difference maker.
I don’t think there has been a pattern.
What we saw in 2014 was a variation on the second example. Post-Rice/Tate/Harvin, they just stuck with known quantities in Baldwin/Kearse/Prich/Lockette—call them “Seahawky” personalities if you wish—and they struggled for many reasons.
We should be looking at roles or types—missing ingredients. Bringing in Jimmy Graham adds a type of target badly needed. They still need another tall possession WR, a deep threat, and a return specialist.
Mad – I’m not against our receiving corp, but I think we need a returner who can make something happen.
I agree completely.
I get the impression that some of you are content enough with the receiving corps that you would support them doing nothing, or very little.
Just let Matthews/Norwood/McNeil do what they do. Keep Kearse and Lockette around, because you know them. Let Baldwin be the undersized alpha dog for life. Let PRich recover, hope that he does. Draft one return specialist, and that’s all.
“They have Jimmy Graham”, so no need for much more.
Okay, I can see a practical reason for this.
I don’t have that much confidence in the existing guys. I think the WR corps can be remade into a more diverse and explosive group.
Believe me I’ve been rolling this WR thing around in my head a lot. I believe that OL has more priority right now. My thinking is if DGB is a 1st round talent spend next years 1st for him. We been going without a 1st for a couple years now. I just think it will take to much draft capital to move up for him if your not using next years late 1st round pick. I just believe that I can get better market value in this draft with a 63 and 112 then a DGB. Of course it’s just my opinion and I actually plan to trade up but I want more value for my pick. I’m looking at 167+181 and move back into the early 5th round like we did for Jesse Williams.
Not picking a side Steele, just arguing a counterpoint.
SEA has a core roster that has seen them make it to the playoffs 3 straight years with back-to-back SB appearances. On offense, that core consists of a dominant running game from Lynch and an improvisational QB in RW distributing passes amongst a group of so-so WRs.
It’s a winning formula, if not a perfect one. Graham gives them something they didn’t have, adding to the formula, if not completing it.
The formula undergoes revision with every draft by adding competition at certain positions – positions where the draft offers comparable talent to that already on the roster. No doubt SEA could improve the WR position group in this draft. But every pick spent on the WR position group is one less pick for another group that also needs improvement, and might benefit more from the addition of competition because the draft runs deep that way.
A lot of what we do here and others do all over with regards to this draft has to do with the team needs and how to best addres them in the draft. I do it too.
In a few days we’ll be very emotional regarding the result of this draft. It happens every year. Having to watch the first day in vain as teams pick the top of the litter doesn’t help.
So, before i just to the roof in joy or pull my hair off in desperation i decided to remind myself where we relly stand as far as “needs”.
You can read it here. (too long and winded for a comment here)
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2015/4/28/8507429/life-without-a-1st-round-pick
NIce write up.
I do disagree with the two rankings.
I know about half this community sees Oline as a need relative to Unger’s loss and the perceived liability of Lewis to play center. And I will concede that looking towards the future with regards to Okung is something to really be prepared to do because of cost and injury history. I’ll also concede that an established player for LG is needed though to be fair to the crowd, James Carpenter was never all that good and getting his caliber of which the team was willing to play despite backups seems like a relatively easy task. Would we want some all world road grading mountain with nimble feet and shades of Hutch/Jones? Of course. Is seattle willing to play a strong JAG with injury and workout concerns for three years? Actually yes. And yes Carp had some moments that were great I don’t need to be reminded of them but ultimately first round pick caliber player? Doubtful.
What also confuses me about oline as need is per many, the argument is the defesnse returns it’s core and is the number one ranked d so obviously the offense needs work. The problem with that logic to me is that even with new players and old stalwarts out the Offense as constructed was the number one ranked rushing attack which is what pete wants it to be. If I’m not mistaken overall it was ranked something like number 9 by football outsiders.
All that taken together going to Eran’s argument I’m actually extremely concerned about things like Depth of the DB’s as whole and would rank that as a need at level 4. Sure they signed an aging Vet in Willias who has never exactly lit up the world with his CB skills except one good year in Baltimore….and after that it’s Lane who is super injured, SImon who they don’t have a ton of faith in yet and literally can not cover the slot, Burley a guy they didn’t even bother suiting up for the superbowl, Obviously the Great Sherman, and I guess depending on how they view him Shead (? cb/fs/ss who knows,) Where I’m going with this long tirade is while every group can be improved at all times, this desire to say OLine is a definite need when in fact it was actually really pretty damn good last year and Russel Wilson, the play calling, and the WR play against teams like AZ and St. Louis have as much to do with his getting sacked as the oline and frankly all that is part of the current scrambling running chunk play system that has been designed to me it’s not as significant of a NEED as half the crown makes it out to be.
I’d actually contend that Play making WR’s better special teams, better overall WR’s and Someone to be viewed as CB of the future who could play this year if Wiliams or anyone gets hurt would actually be a bigger need. Because as noted by the SUperbowl and a lot of last season Oline play isn’t really as strong a factor if the team wins or loses quite like having the members of the LOB past, present, and future that are ready to keep up the excellent level of play.
Was Lewis a liability? He may have struggled a bit at times but he was the starter for the team’s best offensive game of the year last season at Arizona, and played against a much tougher gauntlet of defenses than Unger did. I wouldn’t be upset if he won the starting job next season.
I don’t think CB is a big need yet. Simon isn’t a slot CB and definitely should not have been covering Edelman, that’s a huge mismatch based on both player’s strengths/weaknesses. Not having Burley active was a bad move. Williams was sought after by multiple teams including his old team the Ravens. With him I think you will see that Philly had some terrible secondary scheming and coaching impacting his play.
I think Lewis was fine, even good. My main concern is that oline as priority is,a dominant theme this off season and I think I can make a tenable argument that DB based on age/ lack of a current nickel corner or DL based on age/ the FO will have to pay russel and the may not be able to pay fir FA veterans like bennet, Avril, mcdanieals, Rubin so they may be forced at some point to adjust how they structure the team…
That and the plug and play oline has yielded more or less the same results regardless of who is on the line but last year showed that when Wagner was out there was a drop off, the Mebane, then lane and ET/Kam injuries there was a drop off, and when Avril got concussed…to me proving that starting level depth and rotational players on D is way more important then say a Center is for this team.
Oh yeah I see your point, but there is obviously going to be a drop off when your best defensive players are injured. Not much you can do about that. I thought Seattle was really unlucky on the injury front last season, way more than most teams. The depth hopefully improves next season just based on that.
Will Blackmon can play nickel corner I believe, and Burley wasn’t bad in that role either. Both players are pretty good I think. Sherman/Williams/Simon and Blackmon/Burley is still going to be a better CB lineup than 95% of the teams in the NFL. I don’t think Lane plays at all next season. I do think they will take another developmental CB late in the draft to challenge Simon in the future.
It should be pretty easy to improve the O line. They can prioritize it but not spend early picks on it. Britt looked solid toward the end of the year, and especially in the playoffs. Sweezy keeps improving. Carpenter should be easy to upgrade from, even in the mid rounds. Okung’s health is the big question mark IMO.
I’ll believe we have a dominant offensive line when they can get 1-2 yards at the goal line when everyone knows they are going to run it up the gut. I’ll believe we have a dominant offensive line when the running backs aren’t tackled behind the line of scrimmage. I’ll believe we have a dominant line when they pick up stunts instead of standing around and watching a defensive guy run by them. Until that day – we do not have a dominant offensive line.
Alaska….how do they improve the number one rushing attack? Also I literally can not remember a game last year that Seattle lost without a key member of the defense out.
I know you are bullish on oline and I see the merits but who is going to come in and pick up stunts if the guys receiving the same coaching last year are going to get the same coaching next year?
The rushing yards came from Wilson scrambling/read option runs, Lynch breaking 50 tackles in the backfield, and earlier Harvin gave them a lot of rushing yards on misdirection sweeps. I’m not super high on Tom Cable either but Britt improved quite a bit over the course of the year as did Sweezy. I thought Carpenter was pretty much awful in every facet of the game (yes I know he flashed sometimes). Upgrading his spot would be a serious boost to the O line as a whole.
LG certainly the rub with Wilsons numbers is….how much of that inflates the stats, how much can be maintained, how much will be maintained over these coming years?
Its the old chicken/egg thing. Is he running for his life because the line sucks? Or does Britt miss on assignments when Russell is busy do pump fakes and their is no assignment correct anymore?
I agree about needing another corner, but actually one that can play outisde and in the slot. Somewhat like Maxi and WT3.
We should also keep in mind that Maxi was 26 when he locked down the starting spot and Simon is still only 23.
EranUnger, I would upgrade the needs at WR and edge pass rusher to 4. The existing WR corps is borderline JAG, with only Baldwin worth looking at as anything of a lock. Irvin is up next year, we don’t know if Bennett is a problem. RB could be a 3 instead of a 2 if Lynch is hurt.
DGB is the #1 receiver I want to see on the Seahawks this year, but I realize we need to trade up. So I was thinking, would we have better chances to trade not as far up for DGB (like with Detroit) if more receivers were taken in the first round, or vice versa. Thoughts?
I think DGB goes by 40, more likely the 1st rd.
We really need another stellar draft. They have been spotty the last few years. We need to come away with at least 2 (OL/WR) immediate starters and 3 rotational players (DT/DE/Returner). As long as first 4 picks are (OL/OL/DL/WR) it will focus on our greatest needs. RB/CB and any other position should not be chosen until 6th round. Zenner would be a great RB pick in the 6th
I agree Ed the last 2 draft classes have been weak and we need a good draft if they want to keep the juggernaut rolling.
I think they need to draft 3 guys who can be above league average starters (2 OL, 1 WR)
Also need at least 4 depth / rotation guys who can win a roster spot. A kick / punt returner who can contribute this year and depth on the DL and secondary.
If we can hit on 7 out of our 11 picks plus UFFA I think it would be considered a success.
An immediate starter at WR seems unlikely when we are picking so late. Richardson didn’t even see the field really until the 2nd half of the season. Unless a trade up for DGB happens I don’t think it’s realistic to see an immediate starter there.
This is what is so unique about the DGB situation. He’d be a top-10 pick without his off the field issues. To have a player of his potential available in the early part of the second round is pretty rare. This is why I tend to agree with Rob that the Hawks will be looking to move up.
I for one would be perfectly fine giving up our NO pick this year and our 3rd next year if it meant getting DGB. Heck, I’d think really hard about giving up our 2nd instead of our 3rd next year if that’s what it took.
I really don’t want us all to be here a year from now having this exact same conversation about our receivers (or the lack there of). Let’s fix it now if the opportunity is there.
It could even be our 3rd this year (17 spots higher than the NO pick) in addition to the 3rd next year, if we needed a little extra oomph. That would still leave us all three 4ths to address OL, etc.
totally. I’d be willing to do that and keep the three 4ths we have. Just get DGB so we can focus on something else.
I’d love DGB here as well, but I just think he goes too high. Wouldn’t be shocked to see him go in the first round.
If they want to mortgage the draft to get him, so be it. Not every selection is going to make this team anyways.
It’ll be successful if they can find 2-3 starters, 2-3 depth/backups, 1-2 projects, and 1-2 UDFA worth keeping or holding onto.
I’ll be very surprised if DGB goes in R1.
Dez Bryant was selected with the 24th pick of the first round. I would not be surprised to see DGB go that high based on talent alone.
On talent alone, he’s a first rounder for sure.
Just watched Bill Polian on NFL Live say he’s talked to some GMs around the League who don’t have him on their boards. I guess it only takes one team, but it’s going to be a team that needs a WR – that needs to hit big at WR – and one that’s not afraid of personality issues.
SF, BAL, SEA – those are the 3 most likely landing spots for DGB – and in that order absent some sort of trade up.
BAL needs DGB more than SF does. SF with Torrey Smith, Aq Boldin, etc. are fine.
Interesting article over at Fieldgulls on JS stockpiling draft choices – and how they could trade away picks this year to move up into the first round and still be okay for next year.
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2015/4/28/8495621/nfl-draft-2015-seahawks-picks-trades
It doesn’t need to be the first round. We could turn a 4th into a 3rd, a 5th into a 4th, etc. Most of the guys we select this year are headed for the practice squad. Unless, you believe we blew the draft choices and FA acquisitions we made the last two years and those guys will never improve, last years picks will prove to be ahead of the rookies in training camp. I have high hopes for guys like:
Chris Matthews
Kevin Norwood
Douglas McNeil
Anthony McCoy
Nate Isles
Garry Gilliam
Jared Wheeler
Greg Scruggs
D’Anthony Smith
Jesse Williams
Kevin Pierre-Lewis
Dion Bailey
Eric Pinkins
And there are other reserves who will get a shot:
Jimmy Staten
Justin Renfrow
Drew Nowak
Julius Warmsley
Ryan Robinson
That is plenty of depth already. So the question is would JSPC have signed any of these guys if they did not think they could play?
If these “waiting in the wings” guys—-especially the long list of D linemen—-are good enough in their eyes, then screw the draft as we see it from the outside. Expect to see some of the need positions (as we see it) ignored. Expect a crazy BPA kind of a thing. It’s possible.
Great stuff per usual Rob. Here’s my bold take and honestly; this might be the year they try this for reasons I will list at the bottom.
FIRST PICK: I think the Seahawks will trade next year’s 1st round pick to get into Early round 2, whilst retaining this year’s #63 pick in the process (perhaps they lose their 3rd). Who is the target? Surprise…either DGB or Marcus Peters or Eli Harold or Jake Fisher/TJ Clemmings (if available). I really think one of these guys will be available at WAS Second Round pick (#38). WAS is a great trade partner, whom I think would value a future 1st, in case the ship on RGIII has officially sailed (ammo for the next QB).
WHY? IMO, all of these guys are 1st round talents and could become major cornerstones of this team at premium positions. Furthermore, the Seahawks are in their “prime winning window” right now. I know the mantra is “Win Forever,” but the reality is Pete Carroll is getting older and they have generational talent at their absolute peak. Why not make some bold moves right now, especially with talent who can step in right away and make a difference?
SECOND PICK: #63 DE Frank Clark.
WHY? What if Seattle picks Eli Harold with their trade up? Is this redundant? No it is not. We have heard rumblings of Michael Bennett’s unhappiness with his current contract. Frank Clark fits a similar profile to Bennett but is a better athlete. A combination of Harold/Clark are immediate contributors while also becoming the next generation of Avril/Bennett. Even if it is not Harold; Clark seems like a worthy replacement to Bennett, whenever his tenure comes to a close.
I know this would be out of the Seahawks character, but I do think there is a realization in the FO (pure speculation), that they have a roster of top end talent that is extremely hard to duplicate, in the future. I don’t consider this a panic move at all, but rather an admission that they are in a unique historical window, of possibly becoming a legendary team, that people talk about for a long, long time. Combine this with the fact that they have confidence that they will be picking in the late 1st next year, and I think you have an intriguing case for such a move to be made.
Trading a future 1st for a present 2nd would be awful value. That’s something a Josh McDaniels’ Broncos team would do. I would hate that so so much.
Look at it this way…
You’d be trading a 27-32 pick in 2016 for #38 in 2015, specifically for a player who would be a top 15 pick, if it weren’t for some issue (character, injury, etc). I’m not talking about trading this pick for a player who is a 2nd round prospect. I’m specifically talking about DGB (character), Peters (character), Harold (scheme?), Fisher (he has LT athletic ability – no idea why he is not more highly sought of), or Clemmings (foot injury, LT ability).
It’s really only awful value if you think we will be picking in the top 20 picks next year and for a prospect who is truly a 2nd round value, that doesn’t play a cornerstone type position (DE, CB, OT).
Again, I emphasize this trade would be for one of these specific players…
DGB – you will never get a chance at this type of talent unless you are picking in the top 12. If you are picking in the top 12, you have major issues besides WR.
Peters – he is one of the better CBs to come out in awhile. He fits the Seahawks like no other. Without the character issues, there’s no way he gets out of the top 12-15.
Harold – Few guys fit the LEO mold so well and we know the premium on pass rushers. I have no idea why he isn’t more highly regarded. Scheme?
Fisher – Few OL have the athletic ability to thrive at LT in the NFL, and he clearly has the athleticism to do so. This pick provides so much potential regarding the cap space (re Okung).
Clemmings – Same as above.
I’m not talking about a WR who is not unique. I’m not talking about an interior OL. I’m not talking about a LB or run stopping DT. I’m talking about positions and players who have the ability to contribute in a major way this year, whilst also providing valuable flexibility in the future at cornerstone positions. Not to mention, I strongly emphasize that the Seahawks are in an extremely unique window that will be nigh impossible to replicate in the future. Good luck finding the talent they have, in a span of a few years. You are talking about winning the power ball and thinking you can win it again (just bc you won it the 1st time). The last few drafts should highlight how incredibly hard it is to find consistent difference makers.
Look at it this way…
SEA trades its 2016 R1 for DGB. At some point during the 2015 season, something unexpected and horrible happens – a season ending injury to a key player – and they fail to make the playoffs.
All of a sudden, that “27-32” is now in the mid teens and worth A LOT more. And SEA may have entirely different needs that require a R1 pick. And DGB may end up a bust. It wouldn’t be the first time a team traded away a future R1 pick and was left with nothing much to show for it.
Trading future picks is always a risky venture. You almost have to be able to predict the future. But trading a future R1 is the worst.
Totally fair. I guess it’s a matter of operating out of fear or opportunity.
Speaking personally, I’m putting more emphasis on the current Seahawks’ window (I don’t think what they have on the roster is easily replicated), where you are putting emphasis on the future-insurance.
Neither, in my opinion, is inherently right or wrong. I will absolutely give you the benefit of the doubt that your version is the more prudent/safe path moving forward and I wouldn’t fault an organization for taking that approach..
Not really fear. Just prudence.
Sorry if that came across personally. I wasn’t criticizing your suggestion so much as pointing out that it’s one thing to trade away a current R1 when you know exactly what it’s worth and what the draft crop is. In 2013 and 2015, SEA knew their R1 pick was at the bottom of the round, they knew how many prospects had R1 grades, and they deemed a veteran option the better way to go. In 2014, they didn’t go with a vet option, and instead simply traded down for more picks.
Not at all. I appreciate the dialogue. Quite honestly, this stuff would be boring to talk about if there weren’t multiple angles/disagreements. Cheers.
Well done with your reasoning
So the Rams declined Mark Barron’s option, thus he will be a free agent after this season. Considering they just spent multiple draft picks on him, can anyone see Seattle possibly dealing one of their 6th round picks for him? JS loved him in the draft, and he would add some great depth to Kam (who’s long term health is spotty IMO). He might be young enough to “fix” (though I don’t think he’s broken or anything, just not worthy of that 1st round spot he was taken in).
Interesting, but I can’t see the rams dealing with the hawks.
Given that Cable prefers size over athleticism at LG there are only a handful of prospects that both fit the size requirements and have had SEA show some interest in them (private meeting/workout/pro day).
Tre Jackson 6’4″ 330
Jeremiah Poutasi 6’5″ 335
Jarvis Harrison 6’4″ 330
Quinton Spain 6’4″ 330
Robert Myers 6’5″ 326
Donovan Smith 6’6″ 338
Daryl Williams 6’5″ 327
If size is the key factor here, I don’t see how Matias makes the cut. FSU lists him at 325, but he’s15lbs lighter. I guess he could bulk up, but that sounds like a sure recipe for another oft-injured OG.
Anyway, only 2 prospects on the list have had extra attention from SEA –
Myers was a VMAC invitee and Cable attended Jackson’s pro day.
Jackson is projected as a R2/R3 prospect. If he’s Cable’s guy, they’ll need to make him at 63 unless they’re confident he slips to 95. Myers, on the other hand, is like the OG version of OT Michael Bowie – big and athletic, but relatively unknown from a FCS school so available Day 3.
I won’t be surprised if they take a big OG, but I will if they do it early. The last time they did that didn’t work out so well.
DAVIS HSU @DavisHsuSeattle
I think the Moffitt/Sweezy thing hurt Cable’s cause a bit- rewarded his hard work with more work if you will-
@DavisHsuSeattle
He wanted Moffitt & got Moffitt- then Moffitt showed up & didnt pan out- JR Sweezy was hard work on all parties- worked out better
@DavisHsuSeattle
Another tidbit- every yr Cable lobbies for SEA to draft OL high in draft (just like 2011) but he does not have final say
@DavisHsuSeattle
He can develop the late round guys- but he would of course rather have the plug & play guys if possible.
There is some talk that Cable and the Seahawks prefer Mathias to Jackson at guard. Hard to tell with Cable – last year he visited TENN and worked out both their OT
If he likes size in his LG’s it has to be Jackson.
Matias isnt’ any bigger than Morse or Glowinski.
Give me Robert ‘Snack’ Myers in the 3rd. Some have him rated as a high 4th rounder, like Pauline, who’s opinion I value more highly than most of the other so called draft gurus.
Robert ‘Snack’ Myers might just be the most colorful character in this draft. Said to have some of the best practice habits. Played both tackle positions in college. Can play LG and backup the RT spot. He’s a former high school wrestler, and also has the size that Rob has convinced me they’ll covet at LG.
Strong, athletic, great locker room fit, versatile, fantastic run blocker, moves well, easily gets to the 2nd level. The only issue I see with him is his technique. He needs to be more patient in his pass protection, and needs to learn how to pedal his feet. Other than that he’s a fantastic scheme fit.
Great compy
Not ‘Snack’ – ‘Quadzilla’
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-TjGpfIUAA26_b.jpg:large
His hair alone might be enough for me – looks like the ash cloud from a volcanic eruption.
One guy called him ‘Quadzilla.’ His nickname is ‘Snacks.’
By the way, love the hair myself.
V-12,
Anyone with the name “Snack” on an OL sounds like a fit to me… I’m in.
My two cents.
63 Devin Funchess WR
95 Hroniss Grasu C
112 Donovan Smith OT
130 Ellis McCarthy DT
134 Corey Crawford DE
167 Titus Davis WR
170 Jose Matias OG
181 Damien Wilson ILB
209 Clayton Greathers SS
214 Matt Jones RB
248 Tory Slater DT
I think FUNCHESS will be around and think C as a whole will not be targeted as much as the other OL positions. This let’s us get Grasu in the 3rd and follow it up with other needed positions.
I completed a roughly 4 Rd draft on my flipboard mag. Seattle Seahawks News and Opinions if you care to look at how I came to some of these early selections.
I don’t think that Donovan Smith lasts till the 4th round, but if he does that would be a steal.
The LOB would eat Furchess alive, I just dont see that happening. I dont see Furchess passing the psych tests they put their prospects through. You have to love the game and be pissed off for excellence.
Clayton, I could live with a draft like that. I don’t see Donovan Smith or Matt Jones lasting that long.
Titus Davis is a name that hasn’t come up much. Interesting choice, under the radar. His game is quite similar to Tre McBride’s, smooth, good routes, reliable. Like McBride, not the most explosive WR, and Davis is even less so. Davis is deep in the bottom half in SPARQ, with only a 4.6 40 and not-great 3 cone. Do you see Davis being a returner as well?
I can already hear guys in here screaming about that.
Titus Davis had short arms (29 5/8) and small hands (8 1/4). I don’t think anyone’s going to be screaming for him
I have to admit that I don’t like either Funchess or Davis at WR. There are so many better options based on film and combine/pro day numbers.
Seattle has been able to band-aid the OL and WR position for years while still competing at the highest level. That would seem to indicate that these are not the most vital positions of need. The 10 point lead they surrendered in the Super Bowl was not due to OL/WR talent issues, it was due to lack of consistent pressure on Brady. We really missed Clemons, Big Red, and McDonald down the stretch and it especially seemed like Avril and Bennett were getting worn down by the end of the Super Bowl. We need to restock our DL rotation with quality talent to keep our pass rushers fresh. I want Seattle to go DL with their first pick or trade up if a good pass rusher is falling.
I get the interdependent nature of NFL football. A good OL can control time of possession with a solid running game and keep the defense off the field. A better WR corps can convert on third downs and in the red zone. All true. But pass rush is the single most disruptive element in football. It creates interceptions, fumbles, negative plays, mistakes. It’s psychologically intimidating. It’s what wins. It has to remain the priority.
great post saxon. totally agree
The other argument is that we had 3 straight three-and-outs in the 4th quarter on offense. One sustained drive and we’d have won the superbowl. And that failure is a function of a mediocre and inconsistent WR corps. How about we fix that this year?
Saxon, I can accept some of your thinking. Further adding to the pass rush and the secondary reinforce an already powerful defense, making it bulletproof. Unstoppable.
Part of me likes that idea. It is unpopular. And you would not have balance. An offense that is already predictable and too stagnant, going through entire halves of games going three and out, is just not acceptable.
I think the pass rush will be addressed. The D line has already been addressed with loads of reserves, and the returning veterans from injury. I don’t think it’s necessary to get more than a couple of defensive line players.
I would be fine if we spent our first pick on Jarrett or Michael Benett from Ohio St. They just aren’t making a ton of DL that can consistently get pressure, either inside or out. But the draft looks chock full of guards and WR. If the timing/draft position are wrong for OL/WR (and it’s starting to look that way, from the mocks/buzz I’ve seen), don’t reach, get a guy who can make an impact as a 3-technique in the rotation, and get help at those other positions later.
Sometimes the Universe whispers to us. Sometimes it screams.
The morning after Shane Ray is found with more than an ounce of cannabis news breaks that Dion Jordan will miss the entire 2015 season for violating the NFL substance abuse policy.
It doesn’t matter how talented a prospect is, or how much “value” a team thinks they get if they can draft a blue-chip prospect lower because of these kinds of concerns.
You’d think this will change the draft fortunes of Ray and Gregory. If not, it has to be because of the triumph of hope over experience.
Shane Ray is a first class moron. Don’t put yourself in that situation a few days before the draft.
Like the night before Christmas, we have spent a lot of time discussing receivers of the past, present and future.
What we haven’t discussed is that maybe our receivers can’t succeed because the pass routes are predictable and they just can’t get separation from their defenders. This has also led to a lot of hesitation from Wilson when throwing the ball into tight places. A sad example of this was our last play in the superbowl when the safety jumped the route.
I am hoping that Pete’s sons, Nate and Brennan Carroll, will redesign the passing routes and bring a fresh new look to plays. I can’t really give constructive criticism here, other then to say there is a difference in the way New England and Denver play, and it wouldn’t hurt to at least practice their plays and see what works and why it works.
Until we change the pass routes, we may not get the maximum out of our receivers, no matter who they are.
Interesting thought, but I don’t buy it. It’s no secret that the league views seattle’s receivers as “mediocre” and “pedestrian”.
Routes are pretty standard across the league. It’s up to the players to win their match-up and get open. When you see wilson sitting in the pocket for an eternity in the superbowl and eventually throwing the ball away because no on could get open, that’s a sign you need an upgrade.
Agreed on how routes are pretty standard across the league. Bevell does have a few nice plays up his sleeve which work almost all the time. The pick play where Baldwin starts in the slot and floats to the outside is fantastic and almost always results in big plays. Those type of plays can’t be abused though.
They may be standard to you. I watched Denver run a bunch of plays, they probably have 2-3 times the number of pass plays as Seattle. Anyway they were running plays and brushing off defenders and trying different combos until they hit one that worked. Then they ran it three times and were just killing the other team wtih that play. The fact is – they have enough routes that they will find what works and then use it against the other team.
There are ways of clearing out the defenders, ways of getting receivers open. Are the Seahawks fully utilizing a passing attack. Well since they brag about their run offense, and Wilson spends a lot of time scrambling because no receivers are open, I would have to say NO. But PCs sons are both pass oriented, so maybe they soaked some of the other teams offenses up, and they can design some plays that are more effective.
It could be that he’s scrambling so quickly that the receiver haven’t had a chance to get open also. That OL really had problems with a stacked box and blitzs. Jimmy Graham should help with the stack box problem.
I won’t deny that we could do a lot better than Bevell. I’m still convinced that it’s the quality of receivers over play selection that dictate them getting open. Denver might be able to run those plays because their receivers are simply better route runners. Bevell was the coordinator in 2012 and that passing offense was downright explosive in the 2nd half of the season + playoffs. The receiving corp was quite good too -> Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, and Baldwin in the slot. If we can find a way to put Baldwin back in the slot that would be fantastic. His intelligence and quickness are made for that position.
Vrt, I agree. I’ve been saying for a while now that Baldwin needs to go back to slot, a new Sid Rice possession WR needs to be on the field, along with a Golden Tate type as a #2 z type. That to me is the goal. Put that in place, and Kearse is also put back where he belongs, as a #4 or 5 who makes the occasional big play, where consistency is less important.
The same thing happened to Aaron Rogers in the NFC championship game. He limped out of bounds after running for a first down because Jordy Nelson and Randall Cobb were not open. Aaron Rogers completed 65% of his passes and Russell Wilson 63%. I think that minor difference can easily be attributed to Rogers being a more experienced QB with a better O Line rather than blame it on ‘pedestrian receivers’.
Or we can argue that Rogers, despite being a better QB (with better receivers) than Wilson, was limited to a completion rate of 65% because of the great Hawks D, while Wilson benefited from going against a not that great Packers D. Imagine how much higher Wilson’s completion rate would have been if he had true threats at WR to throw to.
I like our current WRs and they give great effort but there’s a huge talent gap between Nelson & Cobb and our average/pedestrian receivers, Baldwin & Kearse. I mean, let’s be honest, given a choice, how many of us would prefer having Baldwin & Kearse over having Nelson & Cobb as our starting WRs?
I would have given my right arm for Denvers lineup of Demaryius Thomas, Wes Welker and Emmanuel Sanders last year.
65% was his completion rate for the year, not the one game against Seattle.
Alaska, you have spotted the Elepant in the Living Room.
His name is Bevell.
It doesn’t matter how many weapons you give a coordinator if he does not make the best use of them. The jury is very much still out on Bevell. He is not among the more brilliant masterminds.
In the post-Super Bowl furor, I had wondered if Bevell would be replaced. He wasn’t—unfortunately in my view.
Bringing up the Patriots is especially painful. Whether Charlie Weis, Bill O’Brien, or Josh McDaniels, NE has always managed to scheme an offense using imperfect parts successfully. Even in seasons with very mediocre talent, they did well.
There is no excuse for the Seahawks not to have a better offense than it does.
IMHO Christine Michael must be used more. That guy has too much raw talent not to be used. If for no other reason, the team should use him more than before so they can find out more precisely if he is Marshawn’s successor.
If it wasn’t for Pete Carroll,
Bevell would be a motivational coach “living in a van down by the river!” 🙂
I’m always cautious blaming coaches (or any single person for that matter, as this is a TEAM sport) and the offense has been statistically great in a few areas. BUT so much of this offenses success is Russell Wilson and Lynch making plays, yards, and TDs when literally no one else could make those plays. Lunch does things that no one else does. He makes yards that are not there. Wilson is a straight up magician. If there was a stretch where Tjack and Turbin had to carry the load, that would be revealing, especially compared to New England like you guys have where they take an ever revolving roster and produce. Even winning 11 games with Matt freakin Cassell.
Yea,
Well La Dee Freekin Da!
came anybody remind me of the circumstances in which Shirley left UW?
He got his playing time overtaken by Cory Littleton
That and just being an immature hot-head.
The immature hothead was part of the same theft ring at UCLA with Paul Richardson.
More pertinent is what he did at UNLV. There is not a lot of good information.
I didn’t hear of any issues when he was at UW. I heard he was a model citizen.
I think there is little to no chance that DGB makes it out of the 1st round. Too much upside…too much talent…too many teams looking for the next AJ Green type receiver.
I think he’s the 3rd receiver off the board on Thursday.
As much as I’d love to have him a Hawk, I just think it’s a pipe dream.
Completely agree. 18 to KC is my official prediction.
Yes…and reportedly the Texans and Bengals are very interested in him in the 1st.
Per Matt Miller
“In case you missed it, I reported Monday that multiple NFL teams want to draft Dorial Green-Beckham in the first round, but ownership has squashed those plans. In fact, one high-level source of a top-15 team told me this weekend they were flat-out told “no” by ownership about drafting Green-Beckham in the first round.”
Yeah, I think that teams like Baltimore have come out and said that they aren’t drafting anyone with a history of domestic violence. Good for them…should be applauded in today’s NFL.
However, I don’t think that every team has that same sentiment. If he falls to the 2nd, fantastic. I just don’t think it happens.
Well 2 days from the draft. I’ve done as much as I could looking thru every position on a team. I now sit here making up my last draft to post tomorrow. Its tough to figure out trades because I just don’t know what teams are willing to do. I do however in this draft have a very real possibility of a trade up. I think DGB would be a great asset for this team going forward. He unfortunately I think will go in the late or very early 1st round. If you want him I could see the price of a 1st rounder next year and a 5th this year. How long will PC continue to coach here? After all he’s the 2nd oldest coach out there. Would he pull the trigger to win now why the window is open for the next 3-5 years. My priority however is this year and rebuilding an OL to keep my franchise QB of the ground and open holes for Lynch over the next 3-5 years. The longer a line works together the more cohesive they become. In many ways it a shame Okung has a year left. I wouldn’t mind starting all new guys from center to LT, extend Sweezy cause he’s earned a better pay check and Britt. That line would have that time to bond in 3-5 years before we have to start worrying about contracts.
My 2nd priority is a returner. I don’t care what position he plays. Can he help us in the field position department witch is more important than people acknowledge. If you don’t believe me wait till Jon Ryan, our punter isn’t here anymore and you’ll understand. A WR works because no matter what the returner will be in uniform ever game and if good as a WR you have an extra WR you can use. Golden Tate is the best example I can give you.
The DL is not what it looks like. They may be the 1st defense last year but we saw in the last 2 games of the year that they are getting old and FA this year wasn’t like the year before. I have no faith in Williams(who I think is overhype) or Scruggs because they can’t get on the field. The only player that I really have is Staten and marsh to be honest.
I don’t worry to much about CB. Pete is a great secondary coach and his process of bringing in one a year and coaching up has worked. It does however take a pick every year and this year will be no different. I like Dion Bailey for Jeron Johnson spot. I truly when I was at camp last year watching. He would have made the roster if Kam hadn’t been injured. He was that good and that close.
The LB corp is as good as it gets from starters and the depth guys. Since Hawthorne left they really drafted this position extremely well. I still like to add a guy for Smith’s spot because it such a physically demanding spot when you have to hit and tackle someone. All in all, the defense is much better shape than the offense because we paid more attention to it and I think now the offense needs a little love.
I’m hoping that this draft will address everything I just talked about because the window is open for the next 5 years and I don’t want to miss it. To do that I give 2 picks from next year to get a DGB if that was the answer.
I agree with you on many points. I am hoping to solve the rotating/injured line issues once and for all this draft. Or at least for the next four years. Which means drafting a center, guard, and backup left tackle. Now maybe Bailey or Lewis will be the center next year, but even if our drafted players don’t become starters, they could still be healthy backups. I don’t know if the Seahawks can find some mid round wide receivers or not, but I think we all can agree that there is NO reason why the Seahawks can’t find an offensive line in this draft. Heck we have been making picks all the way into the 7th round and loving the players chosen.
I also agree that the defensive line is not what it looks like. They look kinda long in the tooth. Maybe the defense can hold it together another year. But wouldn’t it be nice to have some young rotational guys that you know will be starters some day? Our veterans played too many minutes last year. The best defensive teams have two lines that rotate. We only have enough good players for one line. And as good as they are, they can’t really compare to Detroit or St. Louis defensive lines, so we have a lot of room to build there.
Cornerback wise, they do seem to find them. I think Burley will step up this year as the nickleback. They will pick some project in the late rounds and he will amaze everyone when PC turns him into superman.
Coaching wise, PC has two of his sons on the staff as wide receiver and tight end coaches. They must be soaking up his knowledge. I hope he moves them around and works them into the system. It would be great if they ended up as the offensive and defensive coordinators someday.
Nice post Madmark!
Thanks AlaskaHawk, I really appreciate the feedback. To just let you know I will be on Lake Washington in my canoe watching training camp as much as I can. Its the best part of the year for me.
Wow, that sounds great!
Could kill 2 birds w/ 1 stone by drafting Nick Marshall, Auburn.
Ron Fields, Tye Smith are other late rd CBs.
A.J. Cann LG and Grasu or Morse (both played OC) would be best hope for OL.
I think this draft will ultimately be considered “the Russell Wilson contract draft” . Yes there is a reason that js/PC like to stockpile picks beyond Wilson eventual contract…yet this draft more than others in this regime will be about replacing vets with cheaper draft picks. Who is out after next year? Mebane, okung, lynch …possibly Bennett, chancellor, avril, …the following year. With this mindset and sitting at the end of rd two…I predict they will trade back into rdr three and pick up an extra fourth. I think the focus will be on the dl and ol. I do think they’ll take a chance on a unique wr in rd 3 or 4.
I think there’s so much Talent in round 4 that some of it oozes into the early 5th. It’s just happens to be a gap Seattle doesn’t have a pick for. Pick 167+181=127 so I’m told. I think Seattle will trade those 2 to get 131 to 145 if they can swing it.
If “our guy” (whether that be DGB or sometbody else) gets too expensive or goes too early in Rd. 2, I now hope like heck we can trade picks to pick up an extra 3rd. Every multi-round mock I look at I’m like a kid at Christmas seeing all the good presents get doled out to the other kids until I end up with a choice between sweaters or socks. Useful, but not exciting.
I really enjoy that comparison. You never WANT socks or a sweater at Christmas but when you need them and have a good one, you are very grateful about it. Exactly like picking an O lineman with your first pick that is all the way back at 63
Multiple sources are claiming that Damarious Randall will be a R1 pick.
One is saying IND will take him at 29.
Let some other team take him. He is a rd. 4 talent, if that.
Just an FYI…not interested in SEA chasing him.
By now there are about 50 surefire 1st-rounders…..
I just smile when I hear about a guy at a position we don’t necessarily need/want getting a lot of buzz and allegedly moving up boards. Good. Let some other teams use their picks on those guys.
I’ve read pretty much every post for the last month or so. Lots of interesting stuff.
I’m thinking the elephants in the room (or Seahawks draft room) are LT and SS.
Okung is in his last expensive year and there is no legitimate back up for Kam. Kam had three ailments last year. His style is punishing – to others and himself. Out of the whole LOB, I see him as the first to go. He could be on the field less and less starting 2015.
If we were to mortgage our 2016 first round this year it would be difficult to replace Okung. Hopefully in the 2015 draft we can find some SPARQy guy to groom as Kam’s backup.
We’ll find some interior OL talent in rounds four and beyond this year. We already have some candidates on the squad already.
John and Pete say they like to look 3 years in advance. Let’s hope that plan features these two situations.
2015 Draft:
DT, Edge, WR (including special teams & returner), SS-type talent, OT cattle call.
With this we should be set for the 2015 battle season and for what’s to come in 2016.
.
Washington and Mcloghlin who is buddies with Schiender has made it known they are looking to add picks. If I am JS I am on the phone with him now to make a deal to move up from 63 to 37. If our 2nd,3rd and a 3rd in 2016 does it I make the deal.
With everything going on with guys like DGB, Gregory, J Collins and Ray there is a chance you could get a true impact player at that spot.
If either of the following players is available I make that move.
1) DGB- potential to be a true 1 WR
2)Randy Gregory- top 10 talent edge rusher who could have an instant impact
3) Shane Ray- Same as above but I like him even more because of his passion and motor.
4) Marcus Peter- Best press corner in the draft IMO and would be perfect fit in LOB
5) Cam Erving- Best interior line prospect in the draft IMO. He is a true leader and would instantly stabilize our OL. I think he is an upgrade to Unger and more durable
We would still have 9 mid / late round picks where PC/ JS excel at adding depth.
Walt’s has Shane Ray dropping to the Bengals at 85 already.
Two areas I’d like to discuss.
D line. So much talk about Mebane and replacing him. On a pure football (not cap $) basis, is he okay? Does he stay with the team? Who replaces him if he goes, and Rubin is gone? If a replacement is already on the roster somewhere (Jordan Hill?), no need to address. But—is a nose tackle something that has to be gotten?
Linebacker. Similar issue as above. We have heard nothing about Bobby Wagner. Will he get the extension or not? Do we need an ILB for insurance?
People are overreacting about some kind of need to replace Wagner because he is not extended yet. ET and Sherman were both extended after the draft last year. I try to avoid absolute statements as if I know exactly what the Seahawks will do, but Wagner is not a Maxwell situation. I like Maxwell, but he was the weakest link out of the starting LOB. Wagner is the best LB on the team and truly top 3 ILB in the league. You don’t balk at a top flight contract for Wagner, like you do for Maxwell. Don’t get me wrong, I liked what Maxwell did for the team but these are not the same.
We also cannot compare Wagner to a guy like Suh leaving his team. Suh has made it clear for about 3 years now he did not want to be in Detroit for his next contract. And Detroit had nothing they could do. The Franchise tag would have cost in the 24m range for the year.
I think the Hawks will split the Draft and camp for timing of signing Wilson, Wagner, and Sweezey.
Jon, I agree. I think Wagner will get signed. But what if he gets hurt again? And what about Mebane and replacing him? And is it really necessary to get another safety?
I am asking because we need to sort out this draft. It helps to eliminate as many non-needs as possible, and ones where there is adequate depth already. Those are three that come to mind.
Here is someone’s analysis of Chris Conley’s production that casts a different light.
http://nfldraftsquad.com/wide-receiver-effectiveness-chris-conley/
Basically, he was far more important than it seems. And he has great character. For those of you who are skeptical of him, this should help a bit.
I really like Conely he Mcbride and Montgomery just seem like they would be perfect fits to develop with Russell.
If we can’t get DGB then I have narrowed my WR wish list to the following
Rd 4 (pick from NO) Conely or Mcbride
Rd 4 ( Comp Pick) Montgomery
Rd 7 Smelter ( I know he has ACL but he was my favourite prior to getting hurt and has such great character he really needs to be a Hawk)
Thanks for sharing this. I think Conley will out work most of the others and quickly adjust to the NFL game. And with physical potential that is off the charts, I expect him to be at least a good player. With such effortless speed, he will command a generous cushion and be able to make a lot of hay underneath! Don’t tell Rob I said this, but I hope we draft this kid!
In case you haven’t seen this, a piece from FieldGulls on why trading down this draft allows trading up in next year’s draft, which he believes is deeper than this one.
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2015/4/28/8495621/nfl-draft-2015-seahawks-picks-trades
I’ve quickly jumped on Donald Celiscar’s bandwagon. He has the arm length and coverage skills that the Seahawks key in on. 5’11 may be a little under the projected height, but makes up for it being 200+lbs. He’s a ballhawk, he’s a fearless tackler, and he just seems to have the tendencies that the Front Office looks for.
Alani Fua is another player who fills the draft sheet that the FO like in a linebacker. He has the size for the WILL, the strength for the SAM, and the speed for the LEO. He showed in college that he has no issues in pass coverage, run game could be a little bit of an issue though.
Frank Clark is another guy who I will be keeping an eye on up until his name is called.
A few OL that are being overlooked or just not thought about are Jamon Brown, Jarvis Harrison, Quinton Spain, and Robert Meyers