The Jamal Adams trade talk has ramped up again this week
Three weeks ago I wrote about the remote possibility of Seattle trading for Jamal Adams. This week there’s been fresh talk about the Seahawks making a move.
Jake Heaps shared some information on 710 ESPN yesterday, igniting the discussion:
“I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine who works in a front office on the other side of the country for an NFL team, and we were talking and he actually said, ‘So your Seahawks are really into Jamal Adams.
“He said, yeah, the Seahawks are absolutely pursuing Jamal Adams… I think that trade conversations are heating up around Jamal Adams and that the Seahawks in particular are one of those teams that are continuing to pursue Jamal Adams.”
Others have since joined in to suggest this might be more than a cursory glance in Adams’ direction.
The thing is — there’s still a difference between reasonable interest and actually making a trade. The Seahawks constantly speak of being ‘in every deal’. And rightly so. They’ve pulled off some excellent trades over the years due to this approach. They’ve also had some misfires but that comes with the territory of being a pro-active franchise.
It’s not often a player as good as Adams becomes available. Thus, you’d be doing yourself a major disservice not to consider making a move. That process involves internal discussion and consultation. It involves contacting the Jets. You weigh up the cost and the impact.
Doing pretty standard work to have the best possible information for a potential deal can easily look like an aggressive pursuit. More often than not it’s just due diligence.
That’s not to say a trade won’t happen. It could — if everything matches up in a satisfactory manner and the Seahawks feel they want to pull the trigger.
Yet everything noted in the previous article on June 20th remains true:
— Safety is one of the few positions where they actually have some depth and talent
— Trading for Adams would all but write off the Marquise Blair pick one year into his career
— They have limited 2020 resources and still need to add at least one defensive tackle
— The pass rush needs major investment — much more than any other area of the defense
Some have suggested that the Seahawks are more comfortable paying big money at the safety position than the D-line and that could be a reason why they make this trade. Perhaps. It’s also important to remember that the two safeties they paid — Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor — were both legendary focal points who could easily end up in the Hall of Fame. Since both departed, the Seahawks have not invested heavily in the position.
Rather than preferring to pay safeties instead of defensive linemen, I think they just want to pay big money to players who truly deserve it. With the D-line market exploding since Olivier Vernon’s New York Giants contract, they’ve not indulged in the rapidly growing salaries for the top pass rushers. That feels like a weariness based on cost, rather than any philosophical approach to a specific position.
Adams is a terrific player and would provide a serious injection of quality. Playing next to Quandre Diggs would set up an excellent duo. With a seemingly top-heavy 2021 draft class and major question marks about the college football season, it might be a good idea to use your top pick on a proven veteran. Especially with the defense looking as mediocre as it currently does.
Yet you have to wonder whether such a move would even be worthwhile if Seattle’s front four can’t create pressure and if the secondary and linebackers are exposed. Trading for Adams and using the $60m you spent in free agency to fix the pass rush would’ve constituted a problem solving spring/summer. Trading for Adams and not addressing the pass rush properly could be putting the cart before the horse.
This feels like a classic case of doing due diligence and asking to be kept firmly updated by the Jets. Actually making a trade for Adams, however, still seems unlikely.
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The letter ‘E’ has broken on my keyboard.
The last two articles have not been fun.
It gets fixed next Thursday.
Taking after our standout WR, I see… 😉
😂
Hmm… In that case, before next Thursday can you write an article about Emmanuel Ellerbee and his potential fit on the team?
😂
🤣 nice one!
With a side note about the Washington franchise changing their team name to the “Electric Eels…”
Nope, it’s got to be the Washington Red Tape.
Do you have a new Macbook? My e key is terribly screwed up on it. As are most of the keys, lol.
Yep
Apple is overpriced trash and the world will be a better place without them
For what it’s worth I love the MacBook Pro.
But yeah… the keys on the pad are easily busted and that’s annoying.
I could be convinced, but personally I don’t really want this trade to happen. Especially if it would cost them Blair along with a high pick or multiple high picks along with having to pay Adams a big contract. I would actually prefer if they could package Diggs and roll with Blair and Adams, but I doubt NYJ would want only one year of control.
I doubt NYJ would want Blair anyway or that Seattle would trade him.
The Jets want OL help. Seattle can’t offer anything there. So it will take picks. High ones.
Hey, they already got Fant! Lets just retroactively say Fant was a sign and trade and throw in a pick for Adams.
The talk of multiple first round picks scares me away. One of them would be ok for me considering the college football season will be so messed up if it even happens which would likely have some implications for the draft. I think the deal will ultimately end up too rich for SEA like Minkah’s was.
I think it would take a first and another high pick, such as a third in 2021 or a second in 2022.
Tony Pauline said New York was willing to deal Adams straight up to Dallas for La’el Collins.
C’mon down to Honest Pete’s Discount Used Offensive Lineman! Where our prices are so low they’re OFFENSIVE!
Let’s see what we’ve got in stock…
We’ve got an Ethan Pocic, with low low miles. This model went from the showroom floor straight to the garage and has still has lots of tread on the tires! Has been in the shop a couple times for maintenance and is ready to roll!
Over here we’ve got a Mike Iupati. This dumptruck has answered the bell for years. Needs some tender loving care and probably not an everyday driver, but you fire this baby up and she starts, she’ll wreck your opposing DL in the run game! MAKE OFFER.
And this muscle bound 1 ton is a Jordan Simmons. Why two seasons ago this guy for handled Aaron Donald AND Ndamokung Suh! Think of what he’ll do for 16 full games for you!!!
Hey Jets feeling nostalgic? We’ve got a Brandon Shell in stock on a fresh trade in. Remember this beauty? All the good times you had watching him trot off the field and onto the bench? So many pleasant memories. Relive those glory days with this certified pre-owned model!
And we take trade-ins! We’ll be happy to take that piece of junk Jamal Adams off your hands. Of course, blue book trade in value isn’t what it used to be.
But come on down and see us! Look for the giant inflatable seahawk in low low overhead Seattle!
Lol 😂. They would be foolish not to go for a pitch like that👊.
Jets want mobile O Lineman so they can spread the O Lineman apart. Seattle wants bigger guys for tighter formations. Pocic is a mobile center I don’t know what his deal is but he did play guard before Hunt played center and got league honors as a rookie. If Pocic can’t play center it was a mistake to draft him hopefully we can minimize the loss by getting something in return for him. Otherwise the only bright side about that pick is we didn’t trade up to get him & saved 1 million in 2020 by cutting him.
They will struggle to get a bag of chips for him.
Dunbar would be a nice fit in NY. If Flowers has taken the offseason as seriously as Ugo maybe Dunbar has already served his purpose. There’s no way Seattle is going to pay Dunbar, Griffith, and Adams. If they’re serious about Adams something has gotta give. NY could pay Dunbar immediately! Again just tossing things around that might be crazy because the Jets are making me do it by listening to offers for Adams.
Nobody is trading for Dunbar given his situation.
The Dunbar story is getting to be like a TV show. Will DCI Barnaby catch the bad guy? Will Perry Mason save the day?
I prefer football and I feel that the Seahawks need to look elsewhere for CB help.
Agree, I could also be convinced as Adams is a terrific player and would immediately upgrade a defense that needs significant upgrading! On the other hand, I think any major trade needs to be for pass rush help, not upgrades in the secondary or anywhere else!
As Rob has suggested a trade for Chris Jones is unlikely for many reasons, but he would be a huge DL and pass rush upgrade. Same with Ngakoue! PC/JS seem insistent on not paying top dollar for DL players though, so not counting on either trade happening. Adams might command a new deal worth $15-16m, which is top dollar for the S position, while the DL players seeking $20m+.
So why not just bring Clowney back? Wouldn’t cost any draft capital and we’ve seen what a game wrecker he can be. Just can’t understand the strange game of chicken both sides are playing.
If they are serious about a deal for Adams, I propose this: Hawks trade 2021 R1 + 2022 R3 + Bradley McDougald for J Adams. Blair is young and still can have some value on the team as a backup S or slot player, and it costs to much to trade him, whereas McD could be a stopgap for the Jets and we get his salary off the books.
I would say yes to that, but I doubt the Jets would want McD. I think he would just end up being a cap casualty for us. You could have some fun with Diggs, Blair, and Adams all on the field at the same time.
You’re probably right, the Jets aren’t likely to want McD, but I’m not sure how deep they are at S. That’s why I suggested he could just be a stopgap for them for a year.
Let’s also throw in Pocic since Rob says the Jets want OL help. Can we really classify him as help though? I guess it helps us to send him packing!
They want good OL help. Not someone to cut in camp.
They reportedly wanted La’el Collins off Dallas.
Man, no love for McD today. I checked OTC and his dead money is $1.33M and cap savings would be ~$4M if he were cut/traded.
I actually like McD, think he’s a solid, if unspectacular player. But he’s a bit older now and not a transcendent player like Adams, so would gladly throw him into a trade package and save the $4m as a bonus.
Mcdougald would be a nice get if the Jets trade Adams. I’m not saying trade Adams for Mcdougald plus whatever. Mcdougald would fit nicely with the rookie once Adams is gone.
Heaps did provide other details about the price for Adams. We know Dallas wouldn’t pay the price Jets wanted last year & we know Dallas wouldn’t pay the price Seattle wanted for ET. Since then in both instances nobody has done what Dallas wasn’t willing to do, one could suggest Dallas was right Seattle & NY were not realistic. Jets should keep Adams & pay him it’s the wrong decision to let him go. Seattle is proving they could add players they have plenty of players on questionable contracts that Seattle is not committed to.
IMO, the Seahawks aren’t in a position to trade for ‘stars.’
Years of weak drafts, questionable free agent signings and poor roster management have left this team in a perpetual state of quick fix and prayer. Need a plan.
Address the problems affecting talent acquisition and development or become the Rams (or worse, something like the 2010 Trojans).
If you cant get stars through the draft or free agency you have to get them some how. Might as well be a trade?
A lot of crap franchises agree.
Hate saying this but the Rams are a good team & it would be unsound to overlook them.
Not overlooking them, not that it matters: IMO, the Rams and Seahawks will battle for 3rd in NFC West.
I can’t bare the thought of 3rd place & if that happened after we traded our first round pick I’d have to take a long break from the Seahawks. Absolutely terrifying!
Would people in here rather trade for Jones and pay him $22m a year guessing he is about a 70% of the snaps player? Or trade for Adams and pay him roughly $15m a year for a guy who would play 100% of the snaps? Not sure Im on one side or the other but the Seahawks seem to be more of a team that believes in building from the back to the front.
Jones for 22.
But I’d be happy with either one.
If we end up putting together a package of pick/player for Adams though I hope it includes Blair and not Diggs.
I suspect he’ll want more than $15m, which is the top current salary for a safety. I think he’ll want to top all DB’s and go $17m.
17 million is perfect it stays below Bobby
I’d say it’s too much.
Like that even better!
I’ve heard discussions on sports radio and also an article or two that Pete is on the same page as Belichick that defense be built from the back to the front not the other way round as most coaches prefer. Thus with Kam, Sherman, and ET they had a generational set-up. And, yes, I am aware that Bennett, Avril, etc. were instrumental in the SH’s S.B. runs, but I wonder if this is their primary motivation for getting Adams and even to overpay for his services. Just a thought…
It’s a lazy assumption by those who discuss it I’m afraid.
Carroll’s scheme is designed to minimise the need for elite cornerbacks. Michael Lombardi, who worked for Belichick, has discussed in depth Seattle’s approach at corner and how he was surprised they even paid Sherman (but felt like they had to after winning a SB). Belichick has paid cornerbacks big money. Seattle has paid Kam, Earl and Sherm. That’s it. Three legendary players — paid because they are legendary not because of philosophy. They haven’t invested much of anything at safety or corner since, aside from one second round pick in Blair,
If anything we’re seeing how important PC sees the linebacker position, not the secondary.
Thanks for the clarification and nuance, Rob, and, darn it…I was going to drop in a line or two about the linebackers in Pete’s thinking about defense to stress exactly what you are saying…
One could argue it was a mistake to keep Sherman due to the cap. Had they found a way to trade him after the Super Bowl you never know how things would have turned out. Your right Linebacker is they key to Carroll’s D the rest of the defense doesn’t have to do everything great they just need to do certain things right. Belichick & Carroll focus on defending the end zone inside the 20 those defenses are tuff to score TD’s. Belichick is a 3-4 Carroll uses some 3-4 types in a 4-3. Carroll’s D-line must be disciplined and do their job so the linebackers can make plays. Carroll also needs a FS who can cover lots of ground & a SS who can do what the linebackers can’t do.
Big play safeties and a weak pass rush featuring Bruce Irvin. If we do trade for Adams, maybe it finally will be 2012!
Have faith they’re going to add a pass rusher.
This made me chuckle loudly
Oh boy! Just listened to Carroll on Clayton show hour 2. Hour 1 Clayton said he was going to talk to Pete in hour 2 about Adams, that did not happen, but keep in mind Pete could have been listening to Clayton in hour 1. Hour 2 was interesting with Pete. Pete seems to think this years pass rush is going to be better than last years, Pete is excited Irvin is going play SAM then Leo, not sure how his round 1 LB is going to do this year, Pete is really excited about Blair but commented that they’re going to “tweek” the back end. I’m asking you guys what does back end mean? Safeties plus CB’s or does back end mean safeties? Pete said RW is the best he’s ever been & has really taken control of the offense this offseason. Pete said ‘I don’t know where that let Russ cook stuff came from, I don’t know what that means” Pete said look were trying to build a balanced offense that’s where Russ is at his best.
‘Backend’ usually means your safeties, but it can also mean your secondary in general.
Hahahaha! Pete, the guy who did just as much inner city recruiting as Jimmy Johnson, doesn’t know what ‘let _____ cook’ means? BS.
Hey, at least Pete thinks that the passrush gonna be better…lol
On the one hand, I kind of agree – don’t pay just because everyone else is. On the other hand, you can’t be all that surprised that if you aren’t willing to pay market rate for starting pass rushers you end up not having any on the team. Especially when they don’t seem to have the same thriftiness when it comes to spending that saved cap room on replacement level talent on the interior offensive line.
And if you don’t want to pay for D-liners, you better hit in the draft and get more than you’ve got from Rasheem Green and L.J. Collier.
https://twitter.com/pleonardnydn/status/1281728547204354051?s=21
Hope Tre Flowers is ready.
And who was the guy on here who wouldn’t hear a bad word about Dunbar’s ridiculous lawyer?
https://twitter.com/pleonardnydn/status/1281733771440652288?s=21
Can we just move on already. This whole thing is really starting to stink to high heaven.
From our unappointed legal council:
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/07/10/report-warrant-shows-payoff-cover-up-by-deandre-baker-quinton-dunbar/
These kids are so talented these days and act like COMPLETE clowns. You have millions of dollars, why in the blue hell would you need to stick up some people? Have y’all not seen what happened to guys in the past? Aaron Hernandez?
If we cut him, we would save $3.4M right?
https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/seattle-seahawks/
We traded a 5th rd pick and its looking like we threw that in the trash… At least it isn’t as bad as the Malik McDowell debacle
It really sucks to be the Giants wish we didn’t know what it’s like…..
We save almost 3.5 million cutting Dunbar, does anybody believe Jackson is going to make the roster at 3.0 million? That’s 6.5 million extra to spend to improve the defense.
This is one of the better comedy bits I have read on here in a while….
“C’mon down to Honest Pete’s Discount Used Offensive Lineman! Where our prices are so low they’re OFFENSIVE!” ~ cha
….or IS IT!
*duh duh dunnnnn*
I can’t wait to her Pete say, after this season, “this team feels like 2012, we need to get more pass rushers”
It’ll feel like 2012 because of Irvin, kJ, Bobby, Russ and Olsen was a pro bowler so I guess that counts lol
Well it’s been 2012 for two years now… so they might as well go for the hat-trick.
Funnily enough this could’ve been like the 2012-to-2013 transition had they had a similarly pro-active off-season.
I wish they had gotten Preston smith & zadarius the previous year, I feel like that might’ve given us the edge we needed to compete. I just don’t know where the DE market is going. In retrospect the chiefs got the better end on the Frank the tank trade, they added pass rush and won the super bowl. It’s why I wouldn’t regret getting Percy Harvin, that return at the Super Bowl was worth it all to me.
Re Dunbar. Fully acknowledge the biased, pro-Seahawk slant of my comment here, but – – – is this case not just a s–tshow now in all regards? While we all probably have a pretty good idea of what happened, in terms of proving it in a court of law – you have the key eyewitnesses contradicting themselves, potentially accepting cash in exchange for testimony (which is also a crime), and unlikely to be cooperative when trial comes around.
Is this still a case that prosecutors are going to feel like prosecuting?
If the evidence suggests they committed an armed robbery and then tried to pay off the accusers, then yes.
But at least Dunbar has a man representing him who can’t even spell his name correctly multiple times in a press release.
and now this . . . https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29443809/lawyers-seahawks-quinton-dunbar-giants-deandre-baker-deny-report-cover-up
what a cluster. still need credible evidence to win a trial though. these are the straws I’m grasping at.
Well of course they’ve denied it. What else were they going to do?
“If the glove don’t fit, you must acquit ….”
Really wish and hope Hawks do something, but I think nothing will happen. Pete seems ok with keeping things as is.
WOW! The Dunbar loss would be HUGE.
This season is toast. Auto payout after week 1 means owners will fold it up before then. All this banter has been fun but it doesn’t matter. Dunbar will be cut within 2 weeks. Sports right now matters as much as my choice of 3 ply or 2 ply toilet paper.
The season isn’t toast.
I’ve just watched two divisions of English football complete their season. September of October is months away.
This is the truth: all agents and general managers have shifted their worldview during this pandemic crisis. The Chiefs contract with Mahomey proves this. Nobody has ever done this. The economics of the NFL, along with the rest of this country, and the world, has radically changed. Intelligent owners will realize that this is the first of many pandemics due to global climate change and deforestation. We have the best brain trust in the league. In light of this, I think there will be a fire sale on bad contracts right before the season, if there is a season.
Here’s Paul Finebaum’s response when he was asked if the upcoming college football season would be played.
“I don’t. I keep reading comments from athletic directors about games — I saw the AD at Alabama today say, well, you know, the game with Southern Cal we’re still planning on it,” Finebaum said on the show. “I mean, why don’t why are they trying to kid us? The college football season is slipping away by the hour. What’s happening in college football right now is essentially a game of 1,000 cuts. Excuse me, this is a death by 1,000 cuts. I mean, what are we talking about here any longer? I’ve lost track and you know, it’s a game of dueling statements. You have conference after conference putting out the boilerplate statements.
“The worst being the one by the NCAA last night. I mean, you could get a third-grader in Madison, Wisconsin and have come up with a more cogent, intellectual message about where we are in college athletics than the one that the NCAA, the governing body of the sport put out last night. And by putting that statement out, they were essentially saying, we have no earthly idea what’s going on. We don’t have any control over it. It is the Wild Wild West. So, have at it. You know, we still can still disseminate some meaningless statements, but we have no more control than that.”
College Football is a ship that has been torpedoed by COVID-19. It is taking on water and sinking while Pro Football watches.
It was announce day before yesterday by the Pac 12 that they are cancelling all non-conference games. The Big 10 announced the same thing the day before that. Don’t know how old the interview you speak of was but obviously not up to the minute.
The SEC is supposed to meet tomorrow to determine their course of action for the season. I won’t be surprised if they go all-conference like the PAC12 and B1G. There would be some pretty good SEC West vs. SEC East games if they do that.
Would be great, even if fans aren’t permitted.
Pump the brakes. Traffic ahead. It could be a major slow down or the car behind might crush your back end. Pump. Pump. Pump the brakes. This story has a lot of unknowns and if I were in the position of prosecuting this case to me it would be absolute garbage if my witnesses/ victims are also willing to take bribes. I would hope to settle for disorderly conduct and move on to an important case. This smells of stupidity or nefarious behavior. As for the Hawks in the situation… support the young man until you can… If you can’t. Well then you tried to make the team better and a young man made a painfully bad decision for himself and his family. Move on.
The story has some unknowns but also has some revealed evidence.
The Giants are reportedly close to cutting Baker and if that’s the case, it’s hard to imagine Seattle won’t have to cut Dunbar.
The case has become impossible to prosecute. You could not put any of these witnesses on the stand. I wonder if they are actually building a case against the “witnesses” for extortion.
Come on Steve.
So far we’ve heard charges for armed robbery and now reported evidence alleging an attempt to pay off witnesses/accusers.
And your conclusion is it’ll be impossible to prosecute and the witnesses will be in bother?
I know we’re Seahawks fans but we don’t need to let that influence how we view this case.
I mean just look at this…
https://twitter.com/profootballtalk/status/1282322137911644160?s=21
And people defended this guy when we were talking about his embarrassing ‘statement’ and multiple media appearances.
You hate to assume guilty but it’s not looking good that Dunbar will ever play a down for us.
Yes, it’s important nobody assumes guilt.
It’s also important fans don’t try and argue this away in favour of a player who plays for the Seahawks, which I’ve seen happen a few times on here since the original story broke.
There is no way the prosecutor in this case can rely on these witnesses to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. These witnesses have sworn affidavits that contradict themselves. Their credibility in a legal sense is zero. None of them could ever take the stand. I don’t know how a prosecutor could hope to salvage this carnival.
If the witnesses did in fact take money to change their testimony, then they are open to charges of extortion. Especially if there is evidence that the witnesses were the ones who offered to change their testimony if they got paid. In fact, the defense attorneys are already saying this is a shakedown.
I went to law school and clerked for a criminal defense firm so I am speaking as more than a fan although I never practiced criminal law except for one case.
Great so if you ever want to get out of any charge, just pay off the accuser. Then there’s ‘no way’ you’ll be able to rely on their account.
Come on Steve.
A prosecutor relies on two types of evidence; physical evidence like fingerprints and DNA, and testimony from witnesses and victims.
Physical evidence is harder to rebut and generally considered more persuasive to jurors. Prosecutors win cases all the time with no witnesses at all. So, for instance in this case, if they found stolen watches hidden in Dunbar’s house with his fingerprints on them, then the prosecutor would have some components of a case. But, I never heard that any of the stuff that was allegedly stolen was found by the police.
If they have some physical evidence or if they find some, then a prosecution is still possible.
But, a prosecution based solely on the testimony of these witnesses is impossible. You don’t want to convict an innocent person based on lies so a jury or judge would have to convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that these witnesses are not lying.
Once a witness recants their testimony under oath, it becomes impossible to convict solely on that recanted testimony. If the witness is willing to testify later that the original statement is true and the recant was a lie, based on coercion or bribery, it would be possible to rehabilitate the original statement. But a jury or judge would still want some corroborating evidence to convict.
But Steve, this doesn’t address the point I made.
If you can just bribe a witness, then immediately that hampers the prosecution because it all looks shady… then everyone accused of a crime should dabble in a bit of bribery.
You’re arguing the case is harder to prosecute. I’m saying if they legitimately tried to bribe the witnesses, as alleged in the New York newspaper, then no — it doesn’t necessarily make it harder. It just makes it more serious.
I am also a lawyer, though I don’t practice criminal defense. I share Steve’s concerns regarding the burden of proof for the prosecutor here. In fact, the more this turns into a shit show in which none of the characters–and that’s including the defendants–have credibility, the less likely there will be convictions on the charges filed. The whole damn circus becomes an exercise in reasonable doubt.
A plead-down of some sort, followed by an NFL suspension, however, is a very real possibility, with bad consequences for the Hawks and Dunbar. So the question may become academic.
So again… if you want to get out of a crime just bribe the accuser and then it’ll be so messy and it’ll get thrown out.
That’s not how it works guys.
There’s every chance you’re both wrong and the evidence simply shows they tried to cover up a crime.
I also work in the field. The case is he said she said- with witnesses whose motives were questionable both times they recounted their stories. I cant remember, did they recover the the weapons? Or the stolen goods?
Hardly the crime of the century. How much effort do the prosecutors and the investigators really want to spend on all these knuckleheads?
To put in context, think of the witness in the R. Foster case. She continually flip flopped on her statement-severely damaged the prosecutions case (which moved forward anyway). Biggest difference was Foster didn’t get caught making the payoff.
The bribery case is another matter…
It was alleged over the weekend that there is evidence of attempted witness bribery.
I think we should spend more time considering that and less time trying to argue why the whole thing is a sham.
Yes, as I have inferred above that may be a more solid case.
Not trying to argue whether or not it’s a sham. Just trying to give my perspective based on my experience on whether or not they’ll still have a viable prosecution.
Then I’ll say the same thing I said to Steve.
If there’s evidence, as the New York newspaper report suggests, alleging they tried to pay off witnesses to change their story… that doesn’t make it harder to prosecute. It makes the case even more serious.
Couldn’t they argue that point and state that it was extortion? And not bribery?
This just further illustrates the point I’m making though Jordan.
If you’re able to bribe witnesses, as alleged here, and that can easily be argued away or turned around as ‘extortion’ — then everyone would/should do it and nobody would ever be found guilty unless they were caught red handed.
My background touches on this area and what Steve, Hawkdawg and All I see is 12s say, I believe, is completely correct. The difference of perspective here seems to break down over which question you are asking: (1) does it seem that a crime was in truth committed based on the growing (but still extremely limited) information available to the public vs. (2) does it seem likely there is a viable prosecution, one capable of proving the elements of that crime using credible evidence to meet the heavy burden of proof placed on the prosecution?
The seemingly contradictory answers are that (1) yes, it seems like a cover up was underway which certainly does not look good, but at the same time (2) no, prosecution looks increasingly difficult.
Sure, it’s fair to ask then why every criminal doesn’t escape prosecution by offering a bribe. The answer is that *offering* witnesses a bribe is a high risk proposition – if it come out then it is indeed incriminating with respect to the original crime as well as an offense in itself. But law-abiding and truthful witnesses to the original crime, who no doubt still have a police investigator’s business card in their wallets, do not *accept* the bribe, change their story, or even meet up at the office of the accused’s lawyer to ‘discuss the matter’, Instead they refuse the bribe, promptly report it to authorities, and maintain their story throughout – the truth, which does not change from day to day depending on circumstances.
Anything short of this would call deeply into question the reliability of those witnesses. The result is that any testimonial evidence would be at best given little to no weight. Without additional substantial and convincing evidence this impugned-witness testimony would never meet the high burden of ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’. No doubt this is why the investigation continues, seeking out Dunbar’s mobile phone Cloud based data and so on. With evidence of the original crime increasingly shaky, perhaps the focus of the investigation will turn to witness tampering, and whether Dunbar can be solidly tied to a cover up as opposed to his apprent ‘fixer’.
Having said all that, as Hawkdawg put it more succinctly, Dunbar still may be in trouble with the league and/or Seahawks who will apply their own standard of proof in judging player conduct. We will see.
Nobody has addressed my point.
If it’s as simple as you’re all making out that a prosecution is difficult, then anyone ever accused of anything should just attempt to bribe the witness to create a similar situation.
Which brings me back to the original point that I’ve made all along (right from the time it originally broke) — that people should stop trying to wash this case away and let it play out.
I directly addressed your point above. Attempting to bribe a witness is normally an dangerous if not foolish proposition. It will backfire badly in any situation involving honest, law abiding witnesses who will fink and get you in even more trouble. Meaning, bad idea! Meaning it doesn’t happen normally and the wheels of justice turn.
This case is the exception because less than honest and reliable witnesses (probably known as such in advance by the bribers) may have accepted bribes, changed sworn statements and played ball up to a point with apparent ‘fixers’.
It still was a dangerous proposition, if it happened the way it appears, although using middle-man ‘fixers’ may serve to insulate the perpetrators of the bribe, at least in terms of the evidence. Which again, is what matters in terms of viable prosection. The fact that money changed hands and that the witnesses are disreputable also has opened up the counter-claims that the money was extorted by the nefarious witnesses. Credible or not, good luck to the prosecution!
You haven’t addressed it though. What you’ve said is bribery is bad and unwise — but in this instance the accusers might actually be in the wrong. And then you’ve used hypothetical terms to back that up.
I’m pointing out that if it’s so difficult to charge anyone in this case, then the events as they’ve reportedly unfolded could repeated en masse and it would be equally difficult to prosecute.
And I’ll keep repeating this until the message hits home. People need to stop trying to second guess what may or may not happen and let it play out.
Sorry for being late to the party on this Jamal Adams trade scenario.
The Jets, under new GM Joe Douglas, have added 5 offensive lineman during free agency: George Fant, Conner McGovern, Greg Van Roten, Josh Andrews and resigned Alex Lewis. With the 11th pick and 4th round pick they added Mekhi Bectin and Cameron Clark. We don’t have anything to offer them out of our offensive line group.
They took Denzel Mims in the 2nd round, who will replace Robbie Anderson, and also added Bresha Perriman in free agency. they might be a little light still at wide receiver, so we could offer them something there.
The jets were strong at the safety position going into the draft with Adams and Maye and picked Ashtyn Davis in the 3rd. They also picked Bryce Hall in the 5th. Both of those players fell in the draft due to injury concerns and lack of testing because of covid. It would be good for the Jets to get those young players on the field as much as possible in a building year, so trading Adams and getting a good veteran like McDougald in return makes sense.
I could see McDougald, a wide receiver and a draft pick in a trade for Adams.
According to reports the Jets want picks and/or offensive linemen.
Tony Pauline says they wanted La’el Collins straight up from Dallas. They’re not in the market for a safety, not at the expense of a second high pick.
For Seattle to do this you’re looking at a first and a third, or a first and a future second.
Plus they signed Jared Hilbers and a couple of WRs and CBs in UDFA.
I don’t get what people are seeimg in McDougald. He has been solid in PCs scheme, which is hardly representative to the rest of the league. He is basically replacable, and I continue to scratch my head, why Blair hasn’t already done so.
Maybe he is replaceable but too many dismiss how good he has been for the Seahawks.
To me a trade for Adams makes about 0 sense with the current state of our Defensive Line. Safety is one of the few positions I feel comfortable with.
Need a few more tight ends and guards.
Interesting.
(and of course he meant to say an offer, not an extension…)
Not surprised. He seemed completely deluded as to his status as a free agent.
I’ve had that conversation a few times, where I’ve had to “fire” a picky, demanding, miserly customer.
“We simply can’t provide what you are requiring. We’ll honor the orders you have placed but that will be the end of it.”
It’s a surreal conversation and at times goes against every fiber of your being, but I’ve never regretted having it, not even once.
Well said.
V12, our boy: 👀
https://mobile.twitter.com/ConnorJRogers/status/1282324419277475840
So not particularly fast, but definitely expect explosive testing:
I ain’t gonna lie, he looked slow in that clip lol, but huge fan of his game. Does everything really well. His physicality will translate to the next level.
What does he have at stake to play for this year…?
On a related note, potentially interesting podcast series coming out from him:
https://bluewirepods.com/greg-olsen-announces-new-podcast-series-on-blue-wire/
Pride and accomplishment. It will make him even more bonafide.
Interesting stuff from a survey of 30 certified NFL agents:
https://theathletic.com/1919910/2020/07/13/nfl-agent-survey-30-reps-rap-on-transactions-front-offices-and-current-events
12. Among general managers or front-office leaders, whom do you trust the most?
Chris Ballard, Colts general manager (6 votes)
“Find him to be completely forthcoming. Offers info. Extends himself when not needed.”
“He’s just a straight shooter. He’s not gonna lie to you about your guys and say they’re better than they are worse than they are. You know what you’re getting and they always get back to you.”
“I don’t know how we can (trust front-office executives) as agents. Their job is to battle for their team. Our job is to battle for the players. I don’t think I could trust any of them. If forced to pick one, Chris Ballard with the Colts.”
“Beyond reproach.”
John Schneider, Seahawks general manager (4)
“I really enjoy working with the Seahawks’ front office, from John Schneider all the way throughout his whole scouting staff and then (VP of Football Administration) Matt Thomas as well. Just looking at the whole front office there, the makeup of it and then just the transparency from our relationships with them.”
“Out of the 32 teams, I’d say I trust maybe five. John doesn’t lie. The only time things can get screwed up there is because Pete (Carroll) and the coaching staff might make changes or might have a different opinion on a player and sometimes they take the cake still.”
Andrew Berry, Browns general manager (2)
“He already has (the Browns) on a great path.”
13. Among general managers or front-office leaders, whom do you trust the least?
Belichick, Patriots head coach (4 votes)
“The Patriot Way is hard to deal with. Double cross.”
“I would run my organization the same way. They hold everything close to the chest.”
“You can fill in the dots.”
John Elway, Broncos GM (3 votes)
“Don’t hate him, but don’t respect him.”
“He has to win every negotiation. It sucks dealing with him. … He’s had the longest run of any GM in terms of hiring new head coaches and missing on first-round draft picks. It’s unbelievable. Nobody else gets to do that. If they have an owner that’s involved, there’s no other GM that would be able to do that. … He doesn’t have to answer to anybody.”
“Now that Bruce Allen is out, John Elway.”
O’Brien, Texans head coach/GM (3 votes)
“Just talks out of both sides of his mouth. I don’t believe a word he says.”
Roseman (2 votes)
“Just look at his career path. He’s pretty much pulled the rug out from underneath everybody that ever got close to him in Philly. And when he does, Howie’s gonna do his best for Howie. He’s proven that year after year after year.”
“He’s very good. He is very good at executing his plan and utilizing the information or the tools or the people or whatever to help him get there. And, you know, he’ll get there at whatever costs that he needs to get to his goal. And I don’t say that he’s not trustworthy, because he’s not a bad dude or a liar or whatever. But you know, he’s just very good at his job.”
Allen, ex-Redskins president (2 votes)
“It was Bruce (before his 2019 firing). I’m fine with everyone else. You know Bruce was just the slipperiest of dudes. Can never trust.”
Mike Brown, Bengals owner (2 votes)
“I just don’t agree with the way that they do things. I think they’re good people. I just think that when you’ve got four people running a staff when there are other teams with 25 to 40, it’s really hard to do your job and be 100 percent accurate on some things.”
17. Who is a future GM to watch?
Trent Kirchner, Seahawks co-director of player personnel (2)
“He’s John Schneider’s right-hand man. He isn’t a politician like a lot of guys are. But I think he’s one of the better evaluators in the NFL. And he’s no-nonsense. He’s there at 5 in the morning, leaves at 10 at night every day. He works his ass off. He’s done as much to help John build that roster and keep that roster consistently good year in and year out as anybody in the league. And I know he doesn’t get the pub as some other guys even in that organization or across the league. He’s not going to politic and unfortunately, in this league, you got to politic and that’s not really in his DNA to go sell himself.”
[…]
Scott Fitterer, Seahawks’ co-director of player personnel
Nolan Teasley, Seahawks’ director of player personnel
(Author’s note: Kirchner, Fitterer and Teasley make five members of the Seahawks’ front office cited in the survey.)
14. Among general managers or front-office leaders, who is the smartest?
Roseman (5 votes)
Belichick (4)
Ballard (3)
Berry (2)
Veach (2)
Schneider: “Just think he’s really ahead of the curve in terms of player evaluation. (The Seahawks) rarely seem to have salary-cap problems. He’s very proactive with his roster. I don’t see him as reactionary. They don’t seem to ever be in a situation where they’re sort of scrambling with their hair on fire, trying to patch a situation that they weren’t prepared for.”
I read this article this morning and came away with the fact that as anonymous commentators, there is no skin in the game for them and they can say whatever they want without owning it. I also would not have posted this, as it is paid content. I don’t know how Rob feels about that but I don’t post data from articles that are behind paywalls.
RE: anonymity
That’s kind of the point: they can now say what they really think without any skin in the game, whereas publicly they would have to give a politically correct answer so as to protect their image/relations.
RE: content
I would not copy/paste an entire article of paid content here. But I personally have no problem in carefully selecting pieces of one that pertain to the Seahawks or the draft and discussing them here. We have done similarly before with content from Bob McGinn’s scouting sources and Bruce Feldman’s freaks list, etc. Obviously, Rob has the final say, but I believe we are well within fair use quoting and discussing these things, especially on a free blog that in no way profits from them.
I have no issue with some quotes being posted.
At the end of the day, you’re never going to entice people to subscribe if you never allow anyone to see any of it unless you subscribe.
Good to know your stance on this, Rob.
Sea Mode, sorry, that came out badly from me about paid content. I guess what I am saying is that the article needs to be read in its entirety to fully get the content and context. When I finished reading that article I was left wondering what I had just read and learned and decided it was nothing more than an anonymous bitch session for certain agents (there was one in there that was quite outspoken and I could tell this is a person with an agenda).
I did look for any comments about our front office and we were in the most part, a positive group to work with.
Hey, no problem at all. I thought you voiced your honest concern calmly and reasonably, which I absolutely respect and my answer was meant to be read in the same well-mannered tone.
I agree with your point about the full context. A couple of the takes on the Mahomes contract, for example, were definitely a bit sensationalist and over the top.
Rob have you looked at defensive back Caleb Farley from Virginia Tech? 6’2″ 207lbs running in the 43’s. Big and fast – don’t know if he is a first round talent. Looks like another defensive back from Va tech who was 6’2″ 200lbs Kam C. Also where do you see Sewell out of Oregon compared to other OL talent from recent years is he as good as Quentin Nelson for instance? Thanks for all your hard work and content this summer on the blog. Much appreciated!
I have studied him a little bit but will need to revise my thoughts it was a while ago. I don’t think anyone will be as good as Nelson going into the league but Sewell is very good and a sure-fire top-five pick.
Quentin Nelson
He has lived up to the hype in spades. Truly worthy of where he was picked in the draft. If Sewell is 90%-95% the player he is…. and if you need a guard…. draft him. Who does Sewell remind you guys of in terms of current or former NFLers?
God damn. Was hoping this would fall through.. Rob was right about this one. No way in heck would Chiefs let C. Jones walk out.
The Chiefs looked poised for a dynasty run.
KC has locked up their studs on each side of the ball and will just need manage the roster. Hardman, CEH and a couple young guys are weapons under control for a bit. Im interested to see what happens with Kelce next season
KC could be in a really good position to make a dynasty type run in the next few years.
Seeing how the Cheifs spent their Free-agent money, re-signing players, and their draft just makes me more frustrated on how the Seahawks approached Free-agency. I’m still lost trying to find what the actual plan was. Especially with their stated priorities.
“So what’d you guys do this offseason?”
“We let our best pass rusher go, spent sixty million on backup offensive lineman, and drafted a backup for KJ and Wagner in the first round. How about you?”
“Well after the Super Bowl parade we drafted a dynamic offensive weapon, and then spent six HUNDRED million on our two best players.”
😢
Sad but true cha
KC needed Linebacker with speed. They set themselves up to be able to take Willie Gay in the 2nd round, after Edwards-Helaire for the offense. They actually seemed to execute quite well. Great offseason.
Well, props to them and to Mahomes, who IMO clearly took a page from Brady’s book and took way less than he could have gotten in order to give the Chiefs long-term stability to build around him. He truly might have a shot to be the GOAT and consistently competing for titles will make him more money in sponsorships in the long run anyways than squeezing the team for every penny.
Im just glad the Chiefs are in the AFC because they are going to be a terror for years to come.
Agree. They and Baltimore look like they’re pretty setup for a few years.
Myles Garrett is finalizing a 5-yr/$125M extension with Cleveland. Damn…
Well… I’ve been telling everyone there was no chance of getting Jones or Garrett (or Bosa).