Ken Norton Jr is out as Seattle’s D-coordinator
Ken Norton Jr seems like a likeable person (at least from afar, I’ve never met him). I also think his influence and impact on the Seahawks deserves to be acknowledged. He felt like a big part of the creation of the LOB defense — if not schematically then certainly in terms of guidance, leadership, experience and attitude.
I’ll never forget the clip of Norton Jr barking out to his linebackers during the 2013 NFC Championship game. A few moments later, ‘the tip’ happened.
That said, it’s pretty clear he isn’t much of a defensive coordinator. We’ve seen enough evidence to make that judgement based on two spells in Oakland and now in Seattle.
The last couple of years have been a chore. The Seahawks have started each year a disorganised, mistake-prone mess. They were giving up a ton of yards and points. They were the opposite of a well oiled machine. They were so poorly oiled, in fact, it made you wonder what on earth they do during training camp.
Adding to that was a lack of consistent pressure and pass rush, plus a total inability to turn the ball over.
A case has been made regarding Seattle’s points per game as a justification for the unit. They conceded 21.5 PPG in 2021 — good for the ninth best record in the NFL.
In isolation it’s relatively impressive. But you have to consider a whole bunch of other aspects.
The Seahawks’ sack percentage was just 4.9% — despite their late season flourish — the fourth worst in the league. They had the 11th fewest sacks. Their pressure percentage (22.2%) was the seventh worst. They had just 18 takeaways — eighth fewest.
Per DVOA they had only the 21st ranked defense.
Game after game they simply couldn’t get off the field, relying on a ‘bend but don’t break’ formula that is always open to fluctuating form.
This is despite all of the investment pumped into the unit — the top two picks in 2019, the top two picks in 2020, the Jamal Adams trade and the Bobby Wagner contract extension.
It simply wasn’t good enough.
A failed bear-front experiment, pass rushers dropping into coverage, the big-ticket player you traded for failing to make much of an impact.
Thus, Norton Jr had to go. This change had to be made.
After a 7-10 season it shouldn’t have been acceptable for the same staff and mostly the same personnel to go unscathed. Something had to give.
That said — at what point are we actually going to look at the man making these coaching hires?
Norton Jr was Carroll’s guy, hand-picked in 2018. Brian Schottenheimer was his guy too. Both fired.
It wasn’t exactly unpredictable either, was it? They were two underwhelming hires when they happened as Carroll battened down the hatches and decided he was going to do things his way once again as the reset began.
There is a danger sometimes of coordinators becoming convenient scapegoats. Norton Jr was never qualified for this gig. Carroll appointed him. Just as he’s had ultimate control over personnel, philosophy and scheming and simply not done a good enough job over the last 4-5 years.
He now gets another chance to appoint a new coordinator and have another off-season with millions to spend and a draft to follow in April.
When will the buck eventually stop with the man at the top?
To me, this is a crucial opportunity for Carroll to show he’s willing to change and make amends for previous bad hires and some iffy personnel decisions.
As I’ve noted numerous times in the past — I think he can be a tremendous Head Coach for the Seahawks. I just think he has to be willing to delegate a bit more, install the best staff money can buy and take on a Nick Saban-esque ‘figurehead’ role rather than trying to control absolutely everything.
If he went out and landed Vic Fangio, for example, what a coup that would be. A proven, established, brilliant defensive coordinator who’s had success wherever he goes.
The problem is — Fangio will want to run his defense. Is Carroll willing to cede some control to a man with a brilliant track record? Or is it more important for Carroll to have the final say on everything?
And what’s better for the Seahawks? Getting possibly the best defensive coordinator in the NFL or ploughing on with Carroll running the show?
Seattle should be asking Fangio to name his price. Instead, predictably, two other names are being linked.
One is Clint Hurtt, the current Assistant Head Coach and D-line coach in Seattle. The other is Ed Donatell — a vastly experienced defensive veteran who worked with Carroll during his time with the New York Jets.
Essentially, two of Carroll’s guys.
I do think it could be a lot worse.
After all, Donatell has been Fangio’s defensive coordinator for the last few years in Chicago and Denver. So if you can’t get the man himself, this might be the next best thing. But Shane Waldron isn’t Sean McVay and Donatell isn’t Fangio.
Hurtt is immensely likeable and has, admittedly, done a good job with the likes of Poona Ford, Al Woods and Bryan Mone.
As you’ll see in this podcast, he’s also willing to be honest. He admitted Irvin and Mayowa were rotational pass rushers and it wasn’t sustainable to have them play as many snaps as they did early in 2020. He said he was ‘pissed off’ with the pass rush last season. He acknowledged the loss of Jarran Reed.
He sounds like someone who tells it as it is. That’s needed.
The idea of the two working together is quite appealing, given Donatell is a defensive backs coach predominantly and Hurtt deals with the D-line. Could they be co-coordinators? Maybe that would work?
Yet it all comes back to Carroll seeking comfort in his old pals act. Don’t we want to see a few new voices added — just as he did in 2011 when he went out of his bubble to bring in Tom Cable and Darrell Bevell?
People can quibble about that pair. They had Head Coaching interviews during their stints in Seattle and were outsiders. Cable, in particular, was always credited by Marshawn Lynch for what he added to the offensive scheming.
It’d be refreshing to see a Fangio type come in — with his fresh set of eyes. It would equally be reassuring to know that Carroll is willing to adapt and try new things in 2022. Isn’t it worth a shot, at this stage?
This feels like a legit chance to finally sort out the pass rush, particularly given Carroll has already stated it’s a priority for the personnel department. Fangio has enjoyed a ton of success developing safeties. Could his presence relaunch Jamal Adams’ career?
It’d be exciting. It’d give many fans, not just me, an enormous jolt of confidence to begin the off-season.
I’m afraid just resorting to another ‘friend of Carroll’ won’t do that — despite the way I’ve talked positively about Hurtt and Donatell.
I hope the Seahawks are willing to throw money at this. There’s no salary cap for coaches. Go big, don’t go home. Embrace change, don’t go with familiarity. Deliver proven quality, don’t gamble with untried and untested.
There aren’t many instances where a 63-year-old, grizzled football coach with a reputation for being a bit of a misery guts can re-ignite your passion for a football team. Yet here we are.
Will Fangio to Seattle happen? Almost certainly not.
It’d be one heck of a move, though. The Seahawks need this.
If you want an outside bet who is worth an interview I’d pitch Philadelphia Eagles DB coach Dennard Wilson. He’s done an excellent job in Philly, speaks well and is very much seen as an up-and-comer.
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I take the first halves of the last two seasons as evidence that Carroll is willing to take a back seat on defense. I do think he’d entertain a new approach if it aligns with his principles (i.e. preventing explosives). Not sure if Fangio would be his guy though.
My preference was for Carroll to step away. Given that it looks like Carroll’s here for another go, Norton absolutely had to go.
Glass half empty guy here: what took them so long? I am concerned that it took a post-season meeting with Jody Allen to get this triggered. If Pete wanted to be the peacock he is, after his press conference, he should have announced this and proclaimed with authority that he was going to do whatever it takes to improve this staff and team.
Even if firing KNJ was his idea, it sure can be interpreted that he had to be told to do it by Allen (“changes have to happen, Pete, if you stay as HC”).
Carroll wasn’t going to fire Norton until after the season. And, if the reports about Carroll/Schneider not knowing how the meeting was going to end were true, it wouldn’t make sense to fire him until afterwards.
I doubt Norton was a sticking point with Allen. If he was, the bigger sticking point would’ve been the guy that hired him.
This was the most obvious change going into the offseason. As you said Rob, go try to get Fangio. This gives me some hope for the future.
I’m it sure if Fangio is the guy they bring in, but his scheme generally fits the existing philosophy.
We need an identity on defense. If that’s Fangio’s and doing it his way, that’s great. If it’s the Carrol tree, then we need to get back to that Legion of Boom identity. Specifically, a physical man defense with tall press corners, winning up front with four (and investing there to be able to do so), a LEO (who was that on this year’s team?) and a fast ball hawking free safety.
Honestly, in looking at those criteria, were ANY of those features present in this year’s defense???
Tall press corners – No
Winning up front with four – LOL
A LEO – Kerry Hyder? Benson Mayowa? Nope.
Fast ball hawking free safety – Nope
Instead, we got – the Bear? Huh? Isn’t that almost the exact OPPOSITE? Zone defense, dropping big men into coverage, short corners, few INTs and a lot of third and long conversions (rather than ball hawking free safety picks after winning up front with four).
Certainly Ken Norton Jr. can’t be blamed for ALL of that. If you were a head coach with Carrol’s philosophy and someone proposed the Bear to you, would you be happy with it? How did you let the personnel depart from your philosophy to the point where this was even an option? …and the first time you saw big men dropping into coverage, why didn’t you put your foot down? I’m sorry, the lack of fit in personnel and identity is on the head coach.
Great comments. I wonder if the LOB-era scheme can actually be a quality defense without multiple pro-bowl players. Can we realistically put a roster in place the next couple years to make that scheme function?
My impression is that we’d need a very good pass rushing D-line, a very good and rangy FS, and tall competent corners that could stop the run. Rob has explained a pathway to resurrect the D-line. I don’t know that we can get the right kind of FS (perhaps Diggs is fine if we can re-sign him) and those types of corners are no longer available on the cheap since the league copied that approach at CB. And do you need a Kam or peak Bobby stopping the run to make it work? I’d assume JA could fill in for Kam there if he stays healthy.
Whatever we do, match the scheme with the roster. The mismatch between personnel and scheme has been a defining feature of the team for at least the last couple years on both offense and defense. It seems like they try a scheme, it fails due to poor roster construction, and then we lurch from one desperation approach to another, trying to find an answer.
The league has adjusted to the LOB. Tall press corners aren’t as readily available, the rest of the league has been snapping them up.
Maybe. Although, there has been some tall CBs that have been ignored the last few years. I think it also has to do with offenses employing more sudden and explosive WRS. Think Hill, OBJ, Chase, etc. When the LOB emerged, the league’s trend were tall and physical WRs. Those still are coveted but not as much. Offenses want guys that can stretch horizontally and vertically.
The LOB were historically great but the key to this team has always been a constant pass rush. We really only had a great pass rush in 2013, the SB year. I don’t mean just sacks but the amount of pressures. The quickest way to fix a secondary is to improve the rush. The LOB started to slide even before their injuries. It conincided with us losing our pass rushers.
It’s easier to find tall press corners when you are the only team looking for them. Once SEA shower that to be a winning approach, every team wants them.
It will be interesting to see if the DC candidates are all guys who are willing to run Pete’s defense, or if they also includes guys who have their own ideas on how a defense should function. Because if you extend the thinking a little further, it also has implications for roster construction.
I wonder if we could get Carroll’s buddy Ed Orgeron? I’ve heard he’s somewhat D-line wizard.
“Somewhat of a”
It will be interesting to see what Fangio does. There’s no chance he gets an HC job this year. He could sit it out a season. The personality dynamic with him and Carroll would be intriguing.
I’d like for Pete to hand the keys to a Fangio/Flores type, but I can’t see either of them running a Defense in Pete’s image- they won’t take that job.
I have lowered expectations that the hire will be closer to a Waldron type- someone with outside ideas, but ultimately falls in line and bows to Pete when asked.
My sense is that Jim Harbaugh will snatch Fangio up again if he comes back to the NFL, which I would think is highly likely due to the number of vacancies and money owners will be willing to throw his way.
Rob – great article as usual. I would be shocked if it’s not a Pete guy in the end as well. Pete seems to have a style that relies less on game-planning and more on waiting to see how the team they’re playing comes out during the game. I’ve lost count on the number of times I’ve heard Pete talk about needing to get a feel for the other team after a game, win or loss.
Although, I think we will get a good indication of whether Pete is willing to hand his defense over or not and micromanage things less depending on the hire. Again, I’m not holding my breath.
Well, at least this does give me some hope as KNJ was horrendous! Like all of you, I would be over the moon with Fangio but don’t think it’ll happen either. If we do have to get another FOCer (Friend of Carrol) I want the guy who has been out of his shadow for quite a long time, like Donatell, than someone currently on the staff like Hurtt. That way we’d at least get a fresh set of eyes and probably some new ideas on what might work to get the most use out of the Peacock/Albatross.
It seems we all mostly agree that Pete won’t relinquish total control of the defense even for someone as accomplished as Fangio. And someone like Fangio won’t accept that type of role, so he’s probably out!
At least there will be some change from KNJ, although you certainly can’t lay all the blame for the poor defense on him. Pete and John should accept a fair share for not giving Ken the best defensive talent to work with. As we all know, TJ Watt and Jadeveon Clowney would look pretty good on the def line.
This definitely feels like KNJ was the sacrificial lamb. Someone had to go to appease the masses, but this isn’t the kind of wholesale change this team needed.
Wouldn’t mind Gus Bradley to be honest. Maybe groom him to take over when PC retires?
Not sure why my comment was removed. I posted the link below and mentioned that one of the names listed, Gerald Alexander, is intriguing.
Lovie Smith? Jeez.
That one for the sheer fact that he’s a former HC and I have a suspicion that would make Pete paranoid because if the team does flounder, we’ll a probable interim HC is your DC which may increase your likelihood to get fired.
Hi HF,
I don’t like a lot of links on the blog (especially ones that don’t link to us) and felt that article didn’t offer much more than the one name you’ve discussed
Fair enough. Just wanted to be sure I didn’t violate any terms or etiquette. Sorry about that.
No worries
Good to know. I’ll keep that in mind.
Pete might cede defensive control if he had a better coach. In fact, if it’s Fangio or another experienced coach, they would demand it in the job interview.
A carrot that could be dangled is that when Pete retires after 2025, if the defensive coach has done a good job, they could promote them to head coach.
Anyway, It’s just nice to see some changes made.
Rob, do you you presume, as I do, that Carroll was pressured by Jody to terminate KNJ?
Possibly
I wouldn’t presume that. If Allen isn’t plugged in enough to see the HC’s warts, she’s not going to have much of an opinion about a coordinator.
Instead, if she did raise concerns about the defense overall (or lack thereof), it would probably be Carroll who tossed KNJ into the sacrificial fire.
My thought is that in the meeting Allen would ask Pete why should she expect something different next year than what we saw these past couple of years. Pete can point to Russell’s finger as the reason for the offense to be better next year and ultimately had to throw KNJ under the bus as a reason to believe that the defense will be improved.
If Pete ever laid blame on Wilson’s injury the next question should have been “So how are you going to protect him?”
That injury happened in part because the Seahawks have completely failed to answer for Aaron Donald. The next question probably should have been “Moving forward, what is your plan for the next game against the Rams?”
if Allen doesn’t ask those questions somebody who covers sports in the PNW should.
While I do they have generally failed with the O-Line. You do have to take into account that many the sacks are on Russel and his complete refusal to simply throw the ball away in most cases.As to Aaron Donald most the league has failed to account for him, dude is just a beast
Regarding the o-line though. Yea there were definitely mistakes there. There have been many good online available over the last years who could been anchors on this line that the Seahawks have just missed out on. Conklin and Bulaga in 2020 in particular hurt cause they both got very reasonable deals.
Some are, some aren’t. What I would say is this is the case for most quarterbacks in the league. The thing with Wilson is his are a lot more maddening than most. But other QB’s suffer with the same issue.
I’m 50/50 between a hope and a shrug.
Moving on from KNJ has been obvious for too long. You nailed it Rob when you ask what are they doing in practice that they take 6 games into the season to line up properly and are exposed so badly.
The number of times PC said “we’re seeing everything we need to see in practice but not on Sundays” was stunning, as was the Seahawks’ struggles with basic things like defensive substitutions. He himself should have been able to detect far sooner that this is a symptom of poor coaching.
That aspect alone (hopefully) should immediately improve upon hiring a new defensive coordinator.
The other half is that Norton was hamstrung by some very poor personnel decisions. Norton would have had to be a master chef to make chicken salad out of the chicken poop he was given.
So PC set the whole program back with those twin faults. He set the margin of error for success incredibly narrow.
I think at the least giving the new DC control over the game day actives and the snap counts on defense is not too much to ask, if not also very strong input on personnel acquisitions.
However, even if the Seahawks bring in a Donatell or promote Hurtt, I think Norton was so poor that result will be the needle is trending up either way. But will it be enough of an improvement is the question I have.
Good points cha. The stunning disconnect between practice and game play (at least according to Carroll; I don’t watch practices, so maybe he’s delusional about that too). Hamstringing the DC (any DC) with poor personnel decisions.
FWIW, I don’t think Carroll was the one who came up with the idea to drop DE/DL into coverage; I think that was KNJ (though I admit I don’t know). I also think it was KNJ, and not Carroll, who is responsible for certain younger players not getting many snaps. Having said, that, it’s hard to get past the fact that as HC, Carroll could’ve corrected those glaring problems at any time, but didn’t.
But I guess all this will become clearer if those problems persist with a new DC. Regardless, if Carroll’s still the one with final say over personnel, the new DC might be just as hamstrung as KNJ was.
The personnel dept didn’t give them a SAM to work with. It’s possible they did the Clowney thing with KJ. Bided their time all summer reasoning he’d come on board, and he didn’t.
I think they ‘smartest guy in the room’d’ it on that one. They gave up 41 completions on 46 attempts for 89% completion rate and 8.53 yards after the catch by sending the DL in coverage.
They were the worst team in the NFL defending running backs in the passing game in 2021.
Worse than the worst team in 2020. And 2019. And 2018. And 2017.
Historically bad.
I don’t mind that they are historically bad at giving up passes to rb’s. To me it is where are they catching the ball and for what mean of yardage. To my eyes they were on the screens and the 5-8 yard chuck plays in the middle and those plays hurt us bad.
Another good point. Even if it wasn’t Carroll who decided to drop DEs into coverage, he is the one who hamstrung his DC personnel wise.
Carroll is playing with fire here. At this point, he can bury the skeletons in someone else’s closet. But he’s running out of someone elses to do that with. If 2022 is more of 2021 (even if it’s not quite as bad), it will be undeniable that the emperor is naked in Seattle.
Cha said, “Moving on from KNJ has been obvious for too long. You nailed it Rob when you ask what are they doing in practice that they take 6 games into the season to line up properly and are exposed so badly.”
Staying six feet apart?
They won the COVID Super Bowl that’s for sure.
I want to be optimistic. But as with the rest of Seahawks ‘leadership’ it is hard to know if it will matter. As with Waldron, Schottenheimer, and even Schneider, I wonder if they get the credit or blame or if it is Carroll. Sure, KNJ did not appear to bring much to the table and we can look at his Oakland experience to validate that. But how much will it matter? I am hopeful and do not think it will be worse than KNJ, so I guess that is something.
Jerod Mayo seems to be getting a lot of HC interviews. If he doesn’t land one, I’d find him an intriguing option for DC.
There’s no chance he’d take that kind of sideways step
He’s only been coaching for 2 years as the Pats inside linebacker coach. It wouldn’t be a sideways move at all. This is why I’m skeptical he gets an HC job this year.
Nonetheless, clearly people in the league must see his potential. I haven’t dug in enough to understand the interest, but perhaps he connects well with the players and brings a strong X and Os game. If true, perhaps there’s appeal in a DC job under Carroll that moonlights to an HC job quickly.
He is the de facto DC in New England. Working for the coach he grew up with. For the team he played for. And he’s getting HC interviews.
It wouldn’t just be a sideways step… it would be an absolute headscratcher of a move
He doesn’t call plays and runs in the pack of Belichicks- I think it’s a stretch to call him de facto coordinator. After watching some videos and reading comments, it sounds like he’s fast tracking to an HC job. He has requisite leadership, relationship building, and X/Os knowledge.
I also just don’t see many teams taking that leap without coordinator experience. Also working against him is the recent track record of poor performance among Belichick disciples. Vrabel, Mcvey, Tomlin all had at least a year as true coordinators and I think that would be needed for Mayo as well. Perhaps the Texans (w/Coserio) and Raiders (Davis) are desperate to try anything at this point.
I only suggest him as a moonlighting candidate. The offer would be full D Coord job and expectation of taking over for Carroll, whenever that may be (hopefully very near term).
Oh no. Just got things back into a good place.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/01/18/malik-mcdowell-arrested-for-public-exposure-and-assaulting-a-deputy/
Yeah I saw that this morning. This guy causes so many problems for himself. Even when he starts to look good again, he busts.
It’s sad to see. Pre-TBI the concerns were mostly maturity, work ethic and football character. The criminality has all been post-TBI.
Just imagine the butterfly effect if they had just spent the money on the guy they actually wanted class Campbell back in 2017. So many things would be different now
This is just one example of the lack of thorough “character” scouting done by the Seahawks staff, resulting in one of the biggest busts in team history. How in the heck did they ever draft this dude (that never played for them)? Heads should roll on whoever made that decision (I suspect PC ignored the scouting departments input, after numerous members of his staff worked on the draft for a full year). Pc’s way or the highway?
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/01/18/malik-mcdowell-arrested-for-public-exposure-and-assaulting-a-deputy/
Let’s be fair. As was noted above by Jordan, his criminal issues occurred after his brain injury. You know, the one that kept him out of football for years. When he was drafted, I didn’t like the pick for the same reasons that Rob has repeatedly mentioned, but a lot of the issues he has had were not present before the draft (as far as I know).
Appreciate the write-up Rob! All very nice points.
In a similar vein as Vic Fangio, what about Mike Zimmer?
Seems to be in a similar state (top DC who is out as HC, though with more success than Fangio). He’s run a 4-3 that’s more similar to what Pete has historically liked. Knows how to use a star talent strong safety (Harrison Smith) in a way that we would want to use Jamal Adams. And, he’s coached Carlos Dunlap, who seems to respect him from his times in Cincy (even if they aren’t best buddies), so he’s not starting from complete scratch in the locker room.
Lot of possible ties there if he can’t get an head coaching gig.
I like the idea, but feel he’ll more likely replace Quinn in Dallas.
That’s a fair point Henry Taylor. He was a coach in the Cowboys system from 1994-2006, including DC from 2000-2006. Lot of history there.
I like Zimmer and Quinn. I do think Pete would have to give a little with Zimmer, Pete likes to line up his defense and not do a ton of disguising coverages (although I’m no expert and I have seen us do it more) but Zimmer has always impressed me with his ability to change his defense based on the situation.
That said, if Pete wants to keep his hands in the defensive mix, it’s unlikely going to be anyone who veers much from his own philosophies. Quinn could surprise people though with his experience as a head coach and now being with several different teams.
Was some thoughts on Jim Schwartz. Outside of Fangio I think he’d also be a nice hire if left to run things.
He turned around alot of bad defenses. Loved what he did in Philly.
While not a great HC, he’s always seemed to field a good defensive unit as a DC.
Possibly get him to leave the Titans Job as Senior Advisor and bring in an experienced defensive mind who could turn this defense around quickly.
Lol. Wanted some thoughts not Was. I do like Schwartz though.
I think they could do worse than Schwartz
And just like that… Malik McDowell’s nfl career is over for the second time. Dude has serious serious issues.
If not Vic Faggio…..Matt Patrica? Mike Zimmer?
IMHO
Best of the best:
-Vic Fangio
-Mike Zimmer
-Brian Flores
Best of the rest with potential hawks fit:
-Dan Quinn
-Gus Bradley
-Clint Hurtt
-Jim Schwartz
-Ed Donatell
Other names possibly ready for new DC role (picked up from random articles I came across):
-Jerry Gray, Green Bay Packers defensive backs coach
-James Bettcher, 49ers senior defensive assistant/run game specialist
-Teryl Austin, Steelers senior defensive assistant/secondary coach
-Gerald Alexander, defensive backs coach for the Dolphins
Quinn and Flores will be HC’s
Probably right.
I believe it was Floria who said flores needs to be careful to pick the right spot and not take anything. That it might be in his interest to DC for 1-2 years again and not jump into another miami situation.
Talk about ownership purgatory. The Bidwill family has owned the Cardinals football franchise since 1932. In their 90 years as owners, the Cards have won ONE League championship (in 1947), and that’s it. One championship in 90 years, and even that was 75 years ago.
And they were in Chicago at the time playing 2nd fiddle to the Bears much like the White Sox always have to the Cubs.
(And no I wasn’t alive when they won it all in ’47. I’m old but not that old LOL)
A lot of that purgatory is self imposed Blitzy. Bill Sr. was a train wreck.
Moment of silence please for the ‘smart’ 12’s who were convinced KNJ was doing a terrific job.
They will be in mourning today.
Do those people exist?
Yep
To a lot the firing of KNJ is the corner turn needed to right the ship. However Carroll has done this turn to OC and DC in recent history a few times and still suffering from the same damn problem.
That boggles the mind. How anyone could look at his defenses in Seattle and Oakland and think he was good is beyond me.
Most definitely!
Last week…Carroll is awesome, he says we are running everyone back, which means that is good! No news out of the Allen meetings means he is right and everything is fine.
(Defensive Coordinator canned)
Today…Carroll is awesome, he says we needed to make a change, which means that is good! No other news means that he is right and everything is fine. 🙂
Stay strong, john “the professor,” clayton….
Time heals all.
The person who should have been fired was whoever saw KNJr’s Oakland defense, said good enough, and hired him anyway. That person should never be allowed to hire another coach for the Seahawks.
And also too, while we’re at it, Shane Waldron is returning why?
Is it too soon to fire Waldron lol? Honestly I don’t what to think of him. How much of the offense is PC controlling?
Because they beat Detroit & AZ. All is good.
Well, to Waldron’s credit, he hasn’t asked any of the OL to line up at WR. Yet.
Coming soon to your Carroll coached Seahawks!
I think the Shotty firing was due to PC interfering with his 4th down play call in the Rams playoff loss. PC ultimately intersected enough that the Hawks had to punt. Say what you want about Shotty but I don’t think he was the yes man PC wanted. Waldron, on the other hand, comes across as big time yes man. That’s why he’s staying.
Honestly, Waldron has no choice. He was hired by a HoF coach. No one in their first major NFL coaching job is going to stand up to his boss. If he got canned by Pete, especially after a losing season that saw plenty of poor play calling, his prospects for a future major gig would dry up.
Survival through capitulation, a tried and true method of keeping one’s job in the short term.
Shane Norton Jr is “open-minded.” He’s agreed to do things the way they’ve always been done.
My bad. I forgot.
Not sure whether to laugh or cry. Leaning towards crying.
If you do one long enough, it turns into the other.
This needed to be done, maybe by week4 of this past year.
I’d love for us to get a proven DC like Fangio but I feel Carroll is trying to get a young guy like Hurt to keep on board so he doesn’t bolt for Miami.
Does anyone see any movement on the offensive side for coaching this year?
I’m not sure what Mike Solari does for this team.
He seems to be more reputation at this point.
Agree. Let the OL coach that came with Waldron take over
KNJ being let go had to happen. Their is no denying the defense has suffered under his leadership (some of that falls on Pete too). As fans I think most of us would want to see a Fangio type brought in, but it should be noted he will be a possible HC candidates this offseason and it might be a while before that dust settles. They should take a step back and make sure they hire the right person, its a long offseason no need to make any quick decisions. One thing that needs to happen is defense needs to focus on getting pressure just rushing four (also please no more DEs in coverage). This will hopefully reduce big plays and those frustrating 3rd and long conversions. Its encouraging to see that some of the names floated by the media are D-line focused coaches because that it where this needs to start. I do think we need someone with some outside perspective as well, whoever comes will be tasked with fixing Adams since we will be stuck with him for two years. He may be a “peacock”, but he can still have use.
He may be a peacock, but he’s our peacock..
I wish he wasn’t
Given his youth, I doubt the reduction in quality of play could be chalked up to physical decline. Put him in a role that had him as a Pro Bowl, All Pro, Top 100 calibre player that he was initially.
Could the reduction in quality of play be due to a chronically injured shoulder that he was trying to protect all year… until he didn’t and seriously injured it again?
And, if so… what are the chances he *ever* gets back to what he was 3 years ago?
Zero and that’s been my prediction since late last season.
I 2nd that prediction. We’ve seen the best display the Peacock can show us with his feathers…what’s left is going to be hard to watch.
The off-season is barely here and I’m already frustrated and apathetic. We have to hope yet again that Pete and co will try to do things at last somewhat different and better. Hope they get a better coordinator, hope they fix the pass rush, hope the keep and let go of the right players, hope for a good center etc etc.
The problem is all these things should have been done right/better over the past few years. Norton should already have been gone, we should have gotten a better offensive coordinator last year, we should have got one of the many good free agent DE’s available last off-season, the same for a center either in free agency or the draft(was’nt resigning Pocic a below average oft injured player just a classic Pete ‘our guy’ move?!), should of had our first round picks last year and this year and on and on.
But we are left to grovel for hopeful scraps of what Pete and John might do but probably won’t and watch as the dominos fall in the direction of same old same old under an old, stubborn, blinded coach who rules his kingdom with total control and zero consequences for the growing mountain of bad decisions he heads.
Driving around listening to SiriusXM NFL Radio. Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller discuss the KNJ firing. Kirwan, a known Carroll buddy, says, and I’m not making this up: If the Seahawks bring in Ed Donatello that would be great for Pete because he could leave Eddie alone and walk down the hall to hone in on the offense. Lol. I nearly drove off the side of the road.
And Pete can watch Russell Wilson walk right out the door Pete just entered.
😂😂😂
Yep, that sounds about right
Carroll can walk right down the hall and start meddling with the offense
FFS
And if Pete leaves the offense to Waldron he can just keep walking.
I like this game. Just go to your office and chew some gum.
This made me lol
Official
https://twitter.com/seahawksPR/status/1483563245222776834
You know, as a “Dude”, KNJ was awesome. Loved his time as a player and think he is a good guy who was just in over his head as a DC. As a position coach (where he should stay) he was awesome…as a DC, not so much.
Good luck to you Ken. Find a nice college gig and settle in for a nice end of your career.
Fangio would be a dream, but seeing how PC has worked these past years, it’s a pipe dream.
…oooof, i’d take three first round picks plus j. hurts (maybe)
But then you’d have a chance to greatly improve the overall talent on the team but be handcuffed by the lack of the QB position. Either way, you’re not winning the Super Bowl.
It won’t happen, but it would be wild to watch a bidding war amongst NFC East teams. The Giants and Eagles going toe-to-toe.
Need more. Thise 1’s are too low. Also would need more picks or starters. I would also ask for Minshew over Hurts. Give him a year to start as stopgap or make him a backup now if a #1 comes along.
Agree with Minshew over Hurts although considering Carroll will probably go with Pocic at Center and some other journeymen along the o-line so maybe Hurts would be better in the “run for life” role as the Seahawks QB.
This gets me excited… just not sure RW3 would agree:
QB: Russell Wilson
LT: Duane Brown, Stone Forsythe
LG: Damien Lewis, Phil Haynes
C: Cesar Ruiz, Pier-Olivier Lestage
RG: Gabe Jackson, Phil Haynes
RT: Jake Curhan
RB1: Dameon Pierce, Rashaad Penny
RB2: DeeJay Dallas, Travis Homer
HB: Gerald Everett
TE: Will Dissly, Colby Parkinson
WR1: D.K. Metcalf, Freddie Swain
WR2: Tyler Lockett, Dee Eskridge
DE: Chandler Jones, Alton Robinson
DT: Akiem Hicks, Devonte Wyatt
NT: Poona Ford
LEO: Darrell Taylor, Carlos Dunlap
SAM: Haason Reddick
MIKE: Jordyn Brooks, Cody Barton
WILL: Channing Tindall, Tanner Muse
NKL: Sidney Jones, Marquise Blair
RCB: D.J. Reed
LCB: Tre Brown
FS: Quandre Diggs, Ugo Amadi
SS: Jamal Adams, Josh Jones
K:
P: Michael Dickson
LS: Tyler Ott
As Rob has mentioned, things can turnaround quickly…**
1) Retain Brown, Penny, Everett, Dissly, Jones, Reed and Diggs
2) Sign Jones, Hicks, Reddick and Ruiz
3) Draft Wyatt, Tindall and Pierce (plus depth to OL, CB and LB)
** Obviously influenced 100% by this community.
How do you sign Ruiz when he still has a few more years on his contract with the Saints?
Any scenario with Damien Lewis at LG is not one I like.
100% agree about Lewis Bobby. He must be moved back to RG.
Wow that roster looks 11-7
Lol!
I know everyone is down on Jason as our kicker but he had a bad year. He was awesome the year before. Cut him and bring him back on a lower prove-it deal. Kickers are hard to find!
Kickers are easy to find. Good kickers not so much.
Only 3 guys to consider for DC job
1. Vic Fangio, best creative guy you can get on the market right now
2. Gregg Williams, the only guy who has made Jamal Adams effective and since PC is committed to Adams as a cornerstone guy, may as well build around him
3. Brian Belichick – high risk, high reward type hire.
Fangio, yes.
No to the Belichick kid. That’s a strictly nepotism position. You don’t have that job at that age, and get to show up to work with that haircut, unless your Dad is the boss. After what Daboll and the Bills offense did to those guys on Saturday – nope.
Fangio has zone principles in his scheme. I don’t know if he wants to come here though. Not sure about Gregg Williams’ scheme. He sure is blitz happy. Don’t see him fitting with Carroll.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nfl-browns-dt-malik-mc-dowell-arrested-for-public-exposure-assaulting-an-officer-163906046.html
I thought Hawks made stupid decision to select Mc Dowell but they took chance to Frank clark and it worked great. After training camp he was in news for right reason making plays. But had an stupid accident and never played for hawks. He came back and played for Browns and I was like why Hawks didn’t hold on him when we gave up high pick. But guy needs some help.
Don’t forget he is one of the reason we started taking credit card loan ( Gave up draft pick for DL as Mc Dowell got injured). We never recovered.
Clark had an isolated incident. McDowell had a history of being a lazy entitled moron. Big difference. And had Ray Rice not been caught on tape, Clark would have been a 1st round pick. I’m not defending the sleeze, just saying what and why.
You are right BobbyK. Other teams decided to stay away from these players in draft due to issues not related to football.
Dude just cracked his cranium and is suffering the rest of his life with the consequences of his actions? Dude always had these problems and nobody was aware of it?
Clark, in no way, is free and clear of legal problems. He is still facing charges of possessing an Uzi while driving in LA in his Lamborghini SUV.
An Uzi. In his Italian truck. In LA.
Not the smartest thing for a very rich NFL star to be doing in the off season.
I agree it may not be objectively smart but, if I was driving a Lamborghini in downtown LA, I’d be carrying an Uzi too!
lol
Spot on! I drive a Prius with a few dents and dings and the most dangerous thing I carry is a wine opener.
Someone once said that rednecks have a gun rack in their trucks and yuppies have a wine rack in their Priuses.
It would be interesting to examine how much assistant coaches have influenced personnel acquisition through the JSPC era. Seeing how many long corners the Cowboys drafted with Quinn/Bradley on staff got me thinking that Norton may have had more input in defensive talent acquisition than given credit/blame for.
The change from Cable to Solari was notable in how they evaluated and acquired Oline prospects. Big Maulers with strong hands vs prioritization of powerful athletes as noted by Rob some time ago.
Long press corners were very prevalent during the Gus Bradley era and carried into the Quinn and Richard era’s but significantly departed during Norton’s tenure. Norton seemed to value versatile outside rushers/ middle linebackers, and run stuffing safeties opposed to dedicated pass rushers and coverage linebackers as in Dan Quinn’s run.
On offense, the running back ideal has been preserved but that seems about it in terms of athletic profiles for acquiring talent across the Bevelle, Schottenheimer, and now Waldron deployment. Dee Eskridge seems to have been a player drafted for the rams system as they went with Tutu Atwell just after our pick and previously deployed Brandin Cooks in a similar role. Schottenheimer brought in a lot of tight ends through the draft and in free agency (this seemed to be a strength of his in scheme outside of Olsen…). We found a lot of great undrafted receiver talent when Bevelle was coordinator. Just anecdotal observations but I am curious to look into how those guys have compared in other destination with draft picks and development and how much Pete and John listen to assistant coach input when laying out the draft board.
*Cowboys with Quinn (not Bradley)
Interesting. I think on the long press corners, the whole league saw LOB and started getting those same kinds of guys, so it got much much harder to acquire them…basically they got very expensive. It would probably be tough to separate the changing CB market from any difference an assistant coach makes. Particularly since Pete was a DB as player and coach, I’d guess that the CB thing was all Pete.
The Aaron Levine PC interview.
https://youtu.be/ayujhMrmoGM
Apparently the Offensive Line was awesome all year long and neither Pete, the other coaches or the fans knew it until about 13 weeks into the season.
now it makes sense that wilson had an agreement for the manning pod cast NOT to talk about his future with the seahawks
Aaron Donald’s helmet would love to see that offensive line again.
Every time Carroll speaks these days I lose a bit more faith in this team
You still have faith to lose?
Great post, as always, Rob.
My only disagreement is tangential, and that is just that I think Schottenheimer was a better OC than anyone gave him credit for. He didn’t have peak Marshawn the way Bevell did, and similarly did not have an historic defense to bail him out. Nor did he have any wow factor or buzz around him, unlike Waldron who was given the benefit of the doubt simply by being near Sean McVay. The consensus I remember on a lot of discussion boards was that most fans groaned and made jokes about Martyball. But Russ was never better technically, and while the offense stalled at times, it often carried the team farther than anyone else expected.
Schottenheimer somehow went from being a hot head coaching candidate to persona non grata. It’s hard to credit that he was both that good and that bad in the same season. What undid him was that the offense never seemed to make in-game adjustments. Tyler Lockett often said that opposing defenses thew looks that the offense hadn’t seen on film and weren’t prepared for. That shouldn’t have been a big surprise, and it’s reasonable to expect an OC to adjust accordingly.
In contrast, opposing defensive players all but said that they knew what was coming. This pick-six by the Rams is emblematic and probably the final nail in Schottenheimer’s coffin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ToetvWEr3c
Troy Aikman all but says that this was on the OC.
I know we have many qualms with different aspects of the Seahawks operation. But kudos to their medical staff for having a higher standard of what they needed to see cognitively from McDowell than the Browns did, and refused to clear him to risk further brain trauma.
MSD is reporting that the Seahawks have requested permission to interview Sean Desai of the Bears for the DC job. Anyone know much about him?
It’s interesting they are looking for someone who worked under Vic Fangio but not the man himself.
Clint, Dntaell, Desai were all part of Fangio’s staff.
Perhaps a conduit to Akiem Hicks , hopefully.
In a similar way to how DQs relationship with Michael Bennett helped land him in Seattle.
I know he doesn’t get to come with Khalil Mack, Robert Quinn and Akiem Hicks so…
Don’t claim to know anything about the guy – but the twitter responses from Bears fans about the possibility were all very consistent in their praise of him and what he managed w a banged-up Bears D this year. All talked about him as someone they are not surprised is potentially moving upward.
Sounds positive
I think the mostly positive responses I’ve seen from Seahawks fans about this rumor is because nobody knows much about him. He’s new and different and that’s exciting after years of mediocre, at best, defenses.
He’s probably worth interviewing and he may be the best candidate. Maybe he’s the new Saleh or Staley or Williams or Fangio or maybe he’s crap.
It won’t really matter who the DC is if the line remains bad at pass rush.
We can guess he is not a threat to Pete’s control.
Have to think the meeting with Jody influenced this.
One thing I am curious about is word came out John has been
deferring to Pete over the scouts. For me the Harvin, Graham and
Adams trades have Pete’s finger prints all over them. When Holmgren
got GM powers taken away from him we went to Super Bowl the
next year. Did Pete get his GM powers taken away?
CBS sports latest mock draft – lord please have it turn out that
way but we get Giants picks for Russell.
I don’t know if Pete would stay if he lost GM powers. He’s a control freak. Getting pressured by owner to cut a coordinator? Sure, he’ll grin and bear it then just elevate someone in house to do the same job regardless. But taking away his abilities to conduct trades, FA, and draft? That’s a big nope and I think he’d rather have full control and a mediocre team than give up some control and have a great team.
He’d certainly retain control rather than appoint the best staff money can buy
Otherwise Fangio would be getting a call
They are interviewing two guys who worked under Fangio for DC, so perhaps they did contact Fangio, and maybe he said Nope, or Not This Year But Call These Guys Who Worked for Me….
Quinn and Bradley both turned up their nose at coming back, Bradley more than once. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Fangio had zero interest in being DC for Carrol: too much meddling.
I think that’s right. If he’s going young at DC, it’s so he can have someone come in and tell them that the Seahawks do it a certain way, and the new DC can bring in some ideas, but bot really challenge Pete. Sort of like the quote about Waldron when Pete praised him for learning how the Seahawks do things instead of bringing new ideas.
It’s not uncommon for control freaks and narcissists in positions of power to hire people less capable than they are or ones who will not challenge them. If Pete is one of those guys, and there is certainly enough history to say he is, then we can expect results to not deviate much at all from who get’s hired.
Rob, to what extent do you think that parting ways with KNJ impacts the Bobby Wagner situation?
I’m not sure it does
And I’m fearful Carroll is going to find a way to cling on here to BW
It’s time to move on and spend that money elsewhere
100% think that’s exactly what Pete will do.
Rob,
When we’ve seen Pete move on from other top-tier guys in the past, would you say it was because the skills were beginning to erode, or because it seemed like these guys had grown weary of Pete’s program and were not ‘good soldiers’ anymore? I’m thinking about Bennett, Sherm, and Earl mainly.
moved on from KJ last year though
Well I think it was a bit of both with those guys.
With Bobby, I don’t think he has to be a pain in the arse to justify moving on. I just think it’s time. They’ve made painful decisions in the past.
Bobby provides a lot of buffer from difficult questions during the press confs.
It’s an underrated point 🙂
https://youtu.be/2DjmN3lLKWU
Dave Wannstedt reports to Cowherd that Russ was in meetings with PC and JS about how to move forward. Says he was told this info two days ago. He tied it to KNJ being fired but take that for what it’s worth.
Says a veteran of his experience may have trouble making a big change at this point…Guesses Russ stays and has more influence behind closed doors.
About 13 minutes in.
Then publicly say you’re not leaving Seattle, stop having your agent leak to the press, and sign an extension.
I think there is still a lot to be worked through.
If i were Russ, i would not lose leverage. Put in your demands, wait until camp to see if Pete is living up to his word and then make a move.
Then what Russell claims he wants won’t be possible. How can they construct a super bowl winning roster (I don’t think they will for the record) if they’re not even sure they have a QB. A decision needs to be made and fairly soon so that they can construct the team to dramatically improve because they aren’t close. This can’t drag on for months. If it does they won’t be able to make the moves necessary in free agency.
Pete need to execute and show the path. if he fails, Russ cant hitch his career to Pete.
So what if Russ agrees to stay and then Pete goes back on his word like he did 2 years ago when he reigned in the offense after a couple of down games? If I were Russ I would in no way trust him to let the offense loose and stay the hell out if the way.
Thanks Cha, really enjoyed that discussion with Wannstedt. If what he says is true then maybe Pete is bending a little bit (but not breaking), which is a good thing.
Also liked his comments about Gruden/Mayock and I can see that same dynamic with Pete and John. Hopefully someone will at least talk to Mayock for one of the open GM positions.
I think it was salk this morning that played a clip of Albert Breer saying it is common knowledge that this is Wilson’s last contract in Seattle. Salk says it is time to go for broke.
That report lost credibility as soon as the KNJ firing was connected.
Carroll: “Russ, we want you with us next season. What can we do…what can we do to make things better for you?”
Wilson: “After thinking about this for years I really want you to fire Norton.”
Carroll: “Okay Russ, I hate to do it, I mean, next year he was going to be great, but I’ll do it for you and only for you if it makes you happy to be our QB next season.”
It makes ZERO sense.
Wilson wants to run the offense. No second guessing. No overruling. He wants what he sees as Brady having in TB and what Manning had in Denver (that may be as much invention as reality).
Carroll won’t give him that, or at best might give a little leash and then buckle down if he doesn’t like what he sees.
I see no reason to think that Carroll has changed to give Wilson what he wants now.
Do we know what Wilson wants to run on the offense? My take is he just wants a functioning unit. Where he has weapons and a competent line and running game. I think this idea that he just wants to fling it all over is BS.
I’m on this train of thought. Aside from wanting to run at a faster tempo, I’m not so sure Russ is all about “cooking”. I think he wants a good team, with a top OL, and a scheme that can adapt. He loved Schotty, and reports said he held Russ accountably, and he seemed to improve Russ in some ways, he had his best years under him.
It’s a substantive change. The only other ones, before we get to free agency, would be firing Waldron, and/or Pete himself quitting. It’s of course hard to know, but seems like RW was pretty supportive of the Waldron hire, and it’s a pretty quick trigger to fire him after one season.
Hopefully, Russell can exert some influence on the nature of the FA acquisitions this off-season.
I think, that this is bollocks. Yes, he will have pains finding his new receivers. And to create the same chemistry takes time. But Tannehill did it, Brady did it, Manning did it.
The KNJ firing is a big black hole. It’s basically non-news, because PC will heave one of his cronies to the job. I cannot see, how that makes our defense of replacement grade players better. I canot see how that helps in getting top FA coming to Seattle. Chandler Jones? Why should he come here? This team is crap, a bad product, that is held back by the coaching staff. We need a new offensive minded HC.
If that ever happens, it’s pointless, if Russ stays or not. It’t the difference between a Kingsbury-like four year rebuild or a LaFleur-like two or three year retooling. I’m okay with trading Russ, and the franchise seems to be, too. They entertained a trade last off-season.
Finally, let’s just draft Desmond Ridder.
Taking over the QB job in the NFL is all about overcoming adversity. Josh Allen needed four seasons to become the franchise QB he is now. Kyler M possibly never will be that guy. Trevor Lawrence doens’t seem ready and up to game speed. You cannot draft a franchise QB. There are lots of factors.
The prime factor being you need an awful lot of work. Not everyone if a gifted Houdini in the Wilson/Mahomes mold. You need a guy like Herbert or Burrow or Allen having a high work ethic. And Ridder IMO is just that. He’s a 6’4 football worker.
Make Bobby Wagner the DC and save the money on his contract and allow a Hawks legend to carry on in a leadership role.
…Marshawn Lynch for OC !!
Coming up this morning on the blog…
Big interview with Jim Nagy getting right into the Senior Bowl prospects. Jim on top form.
Stay tuned…
Excellent! Very much looking forward to it. I really, really llike Nagy and always enjoy your interviews with him.
Those are an annual highlight Rob. Please tell Jim thank you for us.
Dee Eskridge is still an exciting pick if he can be used properly. The excitement of discovering him and hearing Jim and you talk about him last year was very enjoyable.
Dee never had a shot this year imo due to the injury bug. We saw how it took most of the season for the O to settle into the scheme. Dee missed much of pre-season and camp with a foot injury, and half the year to his concussion. PRetty hard to make an impact considering all that.
Can’t wait for this. Very excited you and Nagy connected and that you two are still able to have time to talk prospects.
The Seahawks have a history of drafting Senior Bowl players, so it will definitely be interesting to hear about the guys that Nagy likes this year.
My guess is that John and Pete give his assessments strong weight.
Rob,when you get a chance maybe check out Zion McCollum CB from Sam Houston St. 6′ 4″/200 lb. I also like Travis Jones DT from UConn. The more players I look at, the more I am liking the depth of this class. the Hawks could come out of this draft smelling like a rose if the play their cards right.
Larry Stone said a few weeks back that Carroll needed to go.
Then after the Arizona game he reversed course and said Carroll has earned a chance to stay.
Now he’s saying what we all know – that the defense is Carroll’s and the KNJ firing may just be symbolic. But he hopes Carroll is ‘open to new ideas.’
I’ll give credit for him actually voicing out loud that the team needs change. But this reversal and then wishing and hoping is wishy-washy.
I can’t take seriously anyone who thinks Carroll earned the chance to stay based on ONE win against an undeniably declining opponent at the end of a dumpster fire season.
This can be an interesting hire, having two young bright minds as OC & DC:
https://heavy-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/heavy.com/sports/chicago-bears/sean-desai-calls-out-jaylon-johnson/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16426174979993&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fheavy.com%2Fsports%2Fchicago-bears%2Fsean-desai-calls-out-jaylon-johnson%2F
I like the fact he called him out for not taking the shot publically. Would’ve been nice had someone done that to the Peacock…
Guess the KNJ firing means PC is safe and likely the status quo remains as we continue our prolonged decent to league bottom.
SEA cornerbacks in 2021:
Bless Austin
Ugo Amadi
Tre Brown
Tre Flowers
Mike Jackson
Sidney Jones
DJ Reed
John Reid
Nigel Warrior
No one can spin straw into gold.