When it comes to grit and agility, T.J. Watt and Vince Biegel score highly
We know the Seahawks are going to draft for the linebacker position (Pete Carroll spelled it out at the end of the season). Two players they might show interest in are Wisconsin pair Vince Biegel and T.J. Watt.
Agility
If yesterday’s assertion on the importance of short shuttle times is accurate, both players fit the bill. Watt ran the fastest time among linebackers at the combine (4.13) and Biegel recorded a 4.30. In comparison, Bobby Wagner ran a 4.28.
Yes the Seahawks clearly like SPARQ’d up dynamic athletes at linebacker. Yet there’s enough evidence, highlighted yesterday, to suggest a tough, physical LB with great agility will also be considered.
Grit
Here’s T.J. Watt talking about his partnership with Biegel:
“We’re so similar in our whole attitude to begin with on football and the high motor, trying to make a play for our defense all the time.”
And here’s how Biegel described being double-teamed in 2016 and how that impacted the defense:
“When I get double teams or more focus on myself, that’s providing opportunity for our defense to make plays. I’m not a big stats guy. I’m a football player, and I want our defense to play well. At the end of the day, the only stat line that means anything to me is the win column.”
Biegel’s NFL.com profile lists the following strengths: ‘Voted team captain. Known for intensity and all-out love for the sport’.
Here’s what Lance Zierlein has to say about T.J. Watt: “He is a tireless worker who pursues from snap to whistle and his brother, J.J., will be a tremendous resource for technique and pass-rush plan.”
Here’s an anonymous source on Watt: “This guy just plays his tail off… Boy, does he have technique. He’s Clay Matthews. Probably more explosive. Uses his hands well. He finishes things better than his brother (J.J.) did. I think he’s special.”
Les Miles similarly called Biegel a special player before LSU’s game in Wisconsin.
J.J. Watt describes in this video the ‘strong competition’ between the three brothers as they were growing up. “Nobody was going to mess with the three of us.”
Production
The Seahawks value run defense. Wisconsin had the #2 unit vs the run in 2016, behind only Alabama. They were also the #4 scoring defense (behind Alabama, Michigan and Ohio State and ahead of LSU and Florida) and ranked seventh in total defense.
That’s without a lot of big stars and five star recruits. Watt and Biegel have been described as the heart and soul of that defense. The two leaders of a very productive group.
When you watch Wisconsin games, Watt and Biegel not only work together to create openings but they frequently reached the quarterback at the same time. Against Michigan State they combined for 20 quarterback pressures. A lot of this was down to the creative (and effective) blitz packages used by Justin Wilcox — but the execution and understanding of the defense was also evident within these two players.
Between 2014-2016, Biegel had a combined total of 19.5 sacks and 36.5 TFL’s. Watt finished the 2016 season with 15.5 TFL’s and 11.5 sacks. And he did this:
Football IQ
Watt has stated in the past how much he has used brother J.J. Watt as a resource, sharing videos of tape and asking for advice. It shows not only in his play but also when he’s discussing the defense:
Biegel discussed his role at Wisconsin in detail at the combine:
If the Seahawks are looking for intensity and players that elevated a team to a level of performance beyond expectations, Watt and Biegel achieved that. They both tested well enough in terms of agility to be considered and although neither ran a particularly fast 40 time, they tested well as overall athletes.
The average pSPARQ score of pure linebackers (not converts like Eric Pinkins) drafted by the Seahawks is exactly 140. T.J. Watt scored a 140.8. Vince Biegel managed a 122.2 but that’s still better than the 117 scored by K.J. Wright. And Biegel’s short shuttle (4.30) is similar to Wright’s (4.35).
They’re both well sized too. One of the supposed knocks on Biegel, at least according to his NFL.com profile, is size. Yet he was 6-3 and 246lbs at the combine — the exact same height and weight as K.J. Wright. T.J. Watt is 6-4 and 252lbs with enormous 11 inch hands.
How would they fit? Pete Carroll often talks about utilising 3-4 personnel within his 4-3 under scheme. Both Watt and Biegel played outside linebacker at Wisconsin in 2016 (Biegel previously played inside) but it’s worth noting K.J. Wright also played OLB in a 3-4 at Mississippi State. Biegel could provide the necessary depth/competition at inside backer that Carroll has talked about. Watt is likely a SAM in Seattle — another potential need area.
The frequent pro-comparison for Watt is Clay Matthews. Bob McGinn’s sources made that reference and so did Mike Mayock recently. Watt, actually, has to be described as the superior athlete:
Name: Clay Matthews
Height: 6-3
Weight: 240lbs
Forty: 4.67
Vertical: 35.5 inches
Broad: 10-1
Bench: 23 reps
Short shuttle: 4.18
Three cone: 6.90
Name: T.J. Watt
Height: 6-4
Weight: 252lbs
Forty: 4.69
Vertical: 37 inches
Broad: 10-8
Short shuttle: 4.13
Three cone: 6.79
Watt ran a similar forty and beat Matthews in the vertical, broad, short shuttle and three cone. That’s despite weighing 12lbs heavier.
Projections have Watt currently going in the first or second round, with Biegel potentially going in round three.
The Seahawks shouldn’t have any trouble finding a handful of linebackers they like. Skim through this short shuttle list and find the tough guys, essentially. And with others impressing on the pro-day circuit recently (Jordan Evans, Jimmie Gilbert) this looks like an underrated position in this draft class.
If the Seahawks do target players like Kevin King and Obi Melifonwu early, they’ll have a chance to bolster another key need before the end of day two. Watt’s explosive athleticism and incredible agility could put him in contention at #26. He’s competing with genuine freaks at other need positions.
Sidney Jones injury
At the Washington pro-day today possible #1 cornerback prospect Sidney Jones suffered a suspected achilles injury:
Terrible scene at #UWProDay where Sidney Jones IV suffered what appeared to be a significant lower left leg injury: https://t.co/60kxvtgnf1
— Rob Rang (@RobRang) March 11, 2017
This would be a huge setback for Jones. It’s a highly competitive group of cornerbacks jockeying for position. A serious, long term injury could move him from #1 on many boards to #6-7. Especially if there’s a chance he won’t play in 2016.
Hopefully it’s not a very serious injury although a ruptured achilles can take almost a year to heal.
Two thoughts come to mind:
1. How much does this help players like Gareon Conley and Kevin King, two players who really impressed at the combine?
2. Why the heck are pro-days taking place within a week of the combine? We just saw some of these players going through drills and doing tests less than a week ago.
Seahawks seeking late round/UDFA defensive tackles?
According to Tony Pauline, the Seahawks attended the Alabama State pro-day and kept a close eye on 6-0, 339lbs defensive tackle Rod Henderson.
As Pauline notes: “This is the second time this week I’ve reported the Jets and Seahawks on hand to see a late round/free agent wide bodied NT/DT.” He previously reported the Seahawks have an official visit set up with Colorado’s Josh Tupou.
It looks like they’re searching for cheap, early-down depth up front — possibly to provide a most cost-effective solution to players like Tony McDaniel. This is especially likely given the dearth of good early-round DT options and the extremely good alternatives available at positions like cornerback, safety and tight end.
If you missed it yesterday, the Seahawks also worked out Washington State safety Shalom Luani at his pro-day.
Also, in terms of getting back to guys having a chip on the shoulder… “Hey TJ, you’ll never live up to your brother.”
Just, throwing that out there.
Andrew : Just curious. How many players do you know we’re defensive player of the year three times.?
Personally? A couple guys I went to HS/college with were Pop Warner studs. In the NFL? None. Is that what you were asking? Otherwise, not really sure where you were going with it..?
I need TJ Watt in a seahawks uniform so bad that it hurts.
Too Soon… Or Not Too Soon… That Is The Question For Many…. WELL not for me.
With Sidney Jones’s Injury, We essentially COULD have a shot to draft 3/4 of The Best Secondary in CFB last year in Budda, King, and Sidney. We basically redshirt half of our draft prospects anyways, THIS would be the time to truly capture the “Win Forever Philosophy” and instill competition back into this roster.
With the way the market just exploded in the secondary. Kam and Richard will be a tough resigns, and Earl…. horrific enough to say. After back to back significant injuries, I’m not sure if we can count on Earl being in The League after his contract expires with his impulsive state if mind.
Now some might say Jaylon Smith went early Rd2 with a worse injury, and my answer is. This is by far the deepest draft in its entirety, let alone in the secondary in years… You could also argue by Jones going down, others will rise like Rob said. But just remember this draft Extraordinarily top 3 Rounds heavy, lots of talent means lots of options… So I see Sidney falling a bit and King hanging around his normal projections.
With the cliche of “This Draft is PCJS’s Most Important To Date”. Well now we might have s shot to nail this thing and hammer home our Secondary of the Future…. Just Food For Thought
I agree. Don’t think Sherm or Thomas get another contract here. Tops you can get King or Baker and Jones. King or Baker at 26, then Jones in the 2nd or early 3rd.
Jones is too good to fall that far.
Jaylon smith fell to the second and some still called that to high, and he was top 5 before the injury and the draft was substantially weaker and especially at LB. this draft is stacked at DB, and all around deeper. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if teams decide to pass on him for someone else and he drops into the 3rd-4th. I doubt we could get 3/4 of the UW defense backs, with baker and king most likely to both go in the first, early second.
I think this is extreme wishful thinking.
I could not disagree more. Sherman and Earl are Seahawks for life.
You know how other system CB’s don’t work out here sometimes? That goes both ways (see Maxwell, Byron). Some of these guys may not be as effective in another system. I would be shocked if PCJS let a core player get away that they want to keep.
Lang update:
“Sources: #Seahawks just finished w/TJ Lang and his wife. Meeting/pitch went “great” and Lang may have an answer 4 SEA as early as tomorrow.”
https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/status/840702976662593536
😉
Lock and load . . .
https://mobile.twitter.com/Schultz_Report/status/840702976662593536
And he apparently just started following the Seahawks
!!! We must have offered him a good contract
Everyone thought an OL and a DL in FA, but with what Rob wrote in the piece, maybe spending to get 2 OL has them looking for those UDFA DT after the draft. Would be nice to get Murray or Lacy as well.
I think you might be right, Ed. They might still try to add a veteran to compete as an interior rusher, but look to the draft for a big bodied player.
Hmmm…
Trying not to get my hopes up. But he’d play RG with Ifedi shifting out right? Draft Lamp or Asiata to come in and push Glowinski at LG?
Let him play LG.
Get the appeal, re. it keeps Ifedi at RG, but when was the last time Lang played there?
I don’t really think that matters.
So you’re saying there’s a chance! Would be a huge addition to our o line if it pans out. However, weren’t things like this before Jared Allen ended up not coming a couple years back?
I’m pretty warm to the idea of TJ Watt at 26. This cornerback class is so deep, if we miss out on Kevin King we can draft a close facsimile in Ahkello Witherspoon with our 2nd or possibly a 3rd rounder.
There’s not a ton of public tape on Watt, which is disappointing. A SAM backer who can rush the passer is exactly what this team is looking for, and though he’s no Haason Reddick he would make a pretty fantastic consolation prize at 26.
If we go DB early then yeah Vince Biegel – sign me up
I see reddick more like Bruce the athlete with allot to grow into. Tj is more of the football love passion type imo.
And yet Watt actually has a slightly higher sparq. Both really good athletes.
RT Sports Uploads have lots of Wisconsin games condensed into 25-30 minute chunks on Youtube.
Rob, is TJ being propped up slightly by his name? Honest question, as I don’t typically watch film. Only curious if he is a legit Round 1 prospect, as we’ve navigated the bulk of draft season and most of the focus has been reserved for Reddick/Davis.
Just because we’ve talked a lot about Reddick and Davis doesn’t mean we can’t start talking about others. Especially with Reddick set for the top-20 now.
Of course not, there was no offense intended in my question. I was only curious if the talking heads are propping him up a bit because his name is Watt, or if he truly shows on film to be worthy of first round consideration. If the film is there i’m only surprised he hasn’t been a topic earlier
I think there were doubts about Watt’s athleticism and then when he tested as well as he did at the combine — it’s made people realise his potential.
Thanks. This was actually one of my favorite articles to read. All the sparq stuff is great and has some value in its own right, but at the end of the day the one thing that matters most is can a dude play ball. Watt sounds like a dude who can play some ball.
+2
If TJ Watt is essentially the table scraps of JJ I still want that player tbh
I get the feeling Watt is actually hurt by his name. No matter what he does, he’s no JJ Watt . . .
Sounds like a chip on that shoulder… Living in big bros shadow, middle child issues. Seahawky
Thanks Rob!
A couple week’s ago I posted that I had a strong feeling about Watt to the Hawks. Now it doesn’t look like he will even make it to#26. 🙁
Really? I bet he’ll be there just don’t think he is the best choice at 26.
If you want to watch tape of TJ, go to draftbreakdown.com and watch tape of Vince Biegel, Watt is pretty easy to pick out.
I just got done watching this DT Rod Henderson. I like this dude a lot!
Quick off the ball, love his 1st step, gap discipline, raw power, eats double teams, makes a ton of plays in the backfield. The way this guy moves at close to 340 lbs is unreal.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gSOOGDMokmQ
The fans will clamour for a pass rushing DT but this guy is exactly the type of gap disciplined immovable force Pete loves in his DT. He looks short any idea his measurables?
6’0, 339
U talking length?
Yes sorry Vol. Any idea his arm length?
I don’t.
6′ is Mebane height. Also Grady jarett
Perfect for slanted nose 👃
Grady jarrett had sub 33″ arms. He was a favorite of mine following Beasley until the arm length numbers came out.
I gotta admit, it’s a lot of fun watching those squatty big bodied NTs wreck havoc like that. It just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
Ahaha right? It’s honestly the most fun tape to watch.
It was there just 2 minutes ago! It better not have been hacked!!!
Had his pic next to it and everything!
Supposedly Lang just friended the Seahawks on twitter… ARGH!
Just truth!!! NEWS please!!!
For realzies???!!!
Apparently the ‘pitch went great’…
Lang ‘might’ decide tomorrow… Full Moon Peaking NOW!!!
Hopefully, he ‘sees the light’…
Sidney Jones torn ACL could really mess up our draft. Damn it, and I feel horrible for him.
It’s the achilles – not ACL
What a horrible day for a young man…
Full Moon on right now, he literally rips up his future… #SadDay4Him
I saw the tweet…I am sober enough to know that…
Then it was GONE!!!
SORRY GUYS and GIRLS!!
TJ Lang started following @Seahawks on twitter just a short while ago this afternoon:
https://twitter.com/TJLang70/following
My fireworks are in position and ready to be lit.
The suspense is killing me. There was a tweet earlier that said his decision could come as early as tomorrow
I have to be honest, stepping back a bit, it’s kind of amusing, on a certain level, that the one thing that seems to ignite the most excitement with the Seahawks’ fanbase right now is the potential signing of a pro bowl guard. Not a pro bowl DT, WR, RB, etc.. a guard.
THAT’S HOW BAD THE LINE PLAY HAS BEEN.
And count me in with the hoards of overly excited fans. Really hope this gets done.
I bet he gets hurt so soon in our scheme
Knock on wood
Oh stop that!!! 🙂
I JUST LOVE CAP ROLLOVER
I am just high on Kevin King to the Seahawks. I’d really like to put a star at CB2 opposite Sherm, and potentially a CB that should we let Sherm go some day (in the not too distant future) King can replace him. I know there are other guys that could be really good too (Witherspoon, etc) but King lit up the combine, he’s got the tape…please take him SEA, don’t take Cam Robinson.
It would be kinda weird to have a Watt on the team, I’m not gonna lie. But if he can get developed by his big bro and turn into a Clay Matthew type SAM for us…well damn. I’ll take it. R2 is high, especially for a SLB/SAM (when does he pass rush? Does Clark move inside to create Avril-Bennett-Clark-Watt? Don’t we want a big ugly DT like Q.Jeff or G.Smith to rush from inside?). But I trust Coach Carroll to know what he’s doing on defense.
He’d be part of a neat looking NASCAR on third/passing downs (Avril, Bennett, Clark, Watt). Don’t think you need a DT in that look if it’s an obvious passing down.
It really depends what they want to do. Whether they want to be more 4-2-5 like last year or be more 4-3 under base.
Personally I think they’ll do DB early and Watt will be off the board by the end of round two. But he’s worth monitoring anyway because the injury to Sidney Jones potentially increases the chances of Kevin King going earlier.
True and true. I feel the same way. Do you know how Watt is versus the run even on 3rd downs? If he isn’t a liability (in fact if he is good vs the run) when lined up at DE that would be really, really nice. Though you mentioned his 40 time being nothing special and looking it up, almost 4.7….that hurts his ability to contain the outside edge doesn’t it? Having Irvin with his 4.5 speed get to the edge fast was a sweet luxury.
Lastly: I imagine you think it is possible that we trade up into R2 to acquire someone? I just can’t help but think with all those R3 picks and with the depth and talent in this draft (with talent really looking great R2-R3) that it could be wise to trade into R2 (giving us two R2 picks) even if it costs us draft capital from the ’18 draft class. Spend some of that capital on this amazing class if need be.
He’s very good vs the run and an accomplished pass rusher (great hands, great effort, understands how to set up blocks but lacks a truly elite get-off). Speed might be an issue in contain but they considered Cassius Marsh at the SAM and he’s even slower.
They might move up. It depends how they view the value. I think if you can get into the top-45 it might be worth doing but after that the value is pretty much the same until the early third.
+1
Looks to me like TJ Lang just played the Seahawks like a champ.. leveraged their offer to get what he wants from Green Bay. Other than Bemnett and Avril a few years ago these guys don’t get deals done…Free Agency 101 don’t let them leave the building without an answer. You have to play hardball to get this stuff done. John Elway is the best at this. He doesn’t let them leave with an offer..its take the deal now or we are done. You don’t let guys “shop” your best offer…smh
I think it’s best if people just let this thing play out. There’s so much guessing. People trying to assert it’s all a cunning ploy by TJ Lang to leverage money out of the Packers. Others saying the interest is legit.
The truth probably is — the Seahawks are interested and Lang is interested in them. His preference might be to stay in Green Bay and he probably gives them a chance to match his best offer. And he’s from Detroit so understandably that would appeal to. And he’ll sign for one of those three teams. Zero drama. No games. Just a normal, run of the mill free agency situation.
As for ‘don’t let them leave’ — what are they supposed to do? Lock him in Pete’s office? Keep offering more and more precious cap room until he caves in? It’s unrealistic to think he won’t go away and consider his options. Denver didn’t lock Peyton Manning in Elway’s office — Manning assessed the situation and chose Denver after several visits.
Omce you’ve wowed them with the visit u make an offer, they say no (as you anticipate beforehand) then you make the offer you were planning and lay it out that you as an organization have to move quickly and need an answer now. If they say no you shake hands and part friends or they grind one last time sign the deal..Elway signed Talib, Ware and others like a boss…Seahawks i fear are just getting played…but i may be wrong
Looks like Jared Allen 2.0
With respect, aren’t you’re asserting how an experienced and successful front office should do business without any prior experience of these types of deals?
I’ve made a number of mutually successful business deals in my professional life. You are right I have zero experience with a pro sports contracts, however in my defense Green Bay has had what?- like 2 years to negotiate an extension with him and no deal. So he and his agent have been negotiating and have a pretty firm idea of the terms they want. One thing for sure if he knows he is leaving without an offer in his hand and he doesn’t sign while in Seattle the Seahwks have lost nothing and he has less leverage with the team that hasn’t payed him what he wanted for years. By letting him leave town with an offer and no firm commitment that’s a failure in any business i’ve ever been associated with.
Closer_Hawk
You’re reading way too much into the fact he left without a deal.
This is my least favourite thing about FA to be honest. People’s unwillingness to let situations play out before needing to second guess the whole process.
The last time a “big-time” Packers player left the VMAC without a contract offer… he signed a day or two later.
Matt Flynn!!!
lol
It seems quite ridiculous to me to look at a free agency situation and call it a “failure” just because the guy ends up signing elsewhere.
The ‘Hawks goal in these negotiations is not simply, “sign T.J. Lang”. The goal is to make the team better in the best, most efficient way possible. They have to take so many other things into account: For starters the salary cap not just this season but 3-4 seasons out, the current players on the team, other players available in FA, other players available via trade, rookies about to come into the league, etc.
If T.J. Lang walk away from the VMAC and gets $40MM guaranteed from the Packers or Lions, are you really gonna say that the ‘Hawks failed? Even if he signs elsewhere at a more reasonable price, I doubt we’d ever have enough information to declare it a failure.
As far as I’m concerned the only FA ‘failure’ we can really confirm is the Golden Tate situation, and that’s only because Pete pretty much said that they screwed it up communication wise.
Perhaps Seattle was indeed interested in Lang, but then made the deal with Joeckel … and no longer were very interested. That is my take on it. And I frankly can care less if Lang used the deal from Seattle to jack up his price… just meant the Packers had to pay more than they would have…
They met with Lang today days after agreeing with Joeckel so they’re interested in him.
Sounds like how Ruskell got deals done with Houshmanzadeh and Wistrom and others . . . just kept giving them more offers until they finally signed monster deals that killed us in the cap.
No thanks.
Ughhhh….Russell. Only good thing he ever did for our franchise was trade a a 2nd to McDaniels in Denver for their 1st the following year then get fired so that PC & JS could use that pick to get Earl
Ruskell – stinking autocorrect
Re: Jones…
I wonder if this makes a trade down the tiniest bit less likely? Let’s say King/Melinfonwu really are the targets; aren’t those two are now a bit more likely to go top-25? So, say only one is available at 26, PCJS now likely don’t get cute, and simply pull the trigger, yes..?
Has anyone watched enough tape on Watt to see how often, if ever, he dropped into coverage last season? I’d be interested to know, as any experience doing so would help him transition to SAM in Carroll’s 4-3 Under. Regardless, his primary role would be as an EDGE rusher in nickel.
I found data on the following prospects, but nothing on Watt:
Haason Reddick – 74 coverage snaps, 300 pass rush snaps, 247 run defense snaps
Tyus Bowser – 152 coverage snaps, 179 pass rush snaps, 163 run defense snaps
Vince Biegel – 90 coverage snaps, 202 pass rush snaps, 242 run defense snaps
Ryan Anderson – 66 coverage snaps, 243 pass rush snaps, 361 run defense snaps
Carroll Phillips – 1 coverage snap, 302 pass rush snaps, 275 run defense snaps
Those numbers for Bowser suggest that he is a versatile player, a valued trait within Seattle’s FO. Combine that with his athleticism, and we have a possible early draft target. I actually wouldn’t mind seeing Seattle moving up in the second for an athlete like Watt or Bowser, using one of their 3rd. round comp picks. Then they could add a Witherspoon and C. Phillips with their remaining 3rd. round picks.
JT, where did you find those stats? Thanks!
I wouldn’t mind that either.
Here:
https://media.profootballfocus.com/2017/01/Senior-Bowl-Edge-Defenders.png
Bowser is the guy I’m targeting for Seattle in the second round. He fits a little too well.
This means they will draft a RB and blow my mock draft up 😉
Yeah me too…I think my personal dream scenario (realistically) in rd1/2 is King then Bowser….maybe necessitating a slight trade up in rd 2 to acquire Bowser
Rob,
If they draft Melinfonwu with the first pick, does that lower the priority for drafting an LB?
With Kam and Thomas on the field, when does Obi play? If he plays nickel, and sees as many snaps as Lane did last year, doesn’t that reduce the importance of the SAM?
And if they want to play more base, do they field Obi in that formation?
Isn’t it one or the other? In terms of high draft picks? If they want the first rounder to impact the defense straight away, wouldn’t have to be Obi or Watt, say, and not both? Obi in the first and Biegel in the second – wouldn’t that be redundant?
If so, I can see them drafting a later round LB if they take Obi first. Or am I missing something?
I think it would lower the priority to draft a SAM, because unless they plan to move Obi to CB the likelihood is he’d be a ‘Buffalo’ nickel. That would mean a lot of 4-2-5.
That said, even if they take Obi at #26, Pete has stressed the need to get competition and depth behind Bobby and KJ as a priority. So they will draft a linebacker fairly early IMO regardless.
Just so I understand, in the 4-2-5, you would see Kam, Earl, Richard, RCB and Obi as the ‘5’ with Bobby and KJ the two LBs, right? So in that case, you would be drafting a top LB to back up Bobby and KJ, sub for them on occasions, and play the SAM in base.
So in that scenario, where do they get the starting RCB, assuming Obi/LB require the top two picks? Or is the LB more of a third round option? As for the CB, do we think a rookie CB can start for the Seahawks? If so, are there 3rd round (or later) that we think could win that job straight off, negating the need to use one of the top two picks on a CB?
Lot’s of questions, I know, but it seems like the way you are talking about the draft (and by the way, kudos for calling out Roddick, King and Obi long before the mainstream media) that seems like the main question.
Based on previous PC/JS drafts, I am inclining towards the physical freak in the first (ala Bruce Irvin) being Obi. He might even be the target if they trade down, like they did with Irvin. Answering my own question, taking the best Seahawk CB in their second pick, and their LB with the third pick (with LB seen as a lower value position) might give them the three starting defensive players they need.
LB lower in value from the league’s perspective, not necessarily for the Seahawks, the implication being they get a relatively better player at the position later in the draft.
The 4-2-5 takes the SAM off the field and replaces him with an extra safety or cornerback playing the nickel role.
If they want to run this (they ran it a lot in 2016 with Lane playing 71% of the defensive snaps) and draft Obi, Lane could move to the outside if needed with Melifonwu as the nickel. Or they could draft a cornerback with one of their five picks in rounds 1-3. I think any rookie CB will have teething problems learning the technique but Seattle might have their hands tied this year.
Theoretically they don’t ‘need’ a SAM if they take Obi — he could act as a ‘bigger, faster’ Deion Jones. But they would need some depth behind KJ and Bobby still.
I’d guess the first pick will signal a lot of their intention. If they take Obi I’d guess SAM turns into a third round or later flyer on a great athlete. If they take a DB or a SAM then I’d guess it is back to a 4-3. But, even if they take Obi, there’s still a lot of depth to grab a CB in the second and a SAM in the 3rd. Feels like they can play this a lot of ways.
I’m looking at Obi and a LB pick as separate. I’m looking at Obi as a clear future replacement / current depth behind Kam / possible “Buffalo” on sub packages….. while a LB pick would be to add depth and possibly “start” in the base 4-3 package. I’m looking at LB who could play any of the three spots and have some versatility.
I think Rob made some nice points about expanding our world view on LB that might fit in Seattle. Yes, SPARQ is important… but other intangibles or subtle measurements are also valued by Seattle. Short area quickness or burst to the ball.. as examples.
Pete once said they did it the right way with Kam – i.e. Letting him learn for a year under Milloy. Obie could get a year under Kams tutelage….perfect transition.
I love how this site consistently makes us consider other players for our top picks. It seems like this year, as opposed to the past, I am love with the idea of more players. It’s becoming clear that we are (rightly) using free agency to shore up the line and possibly get RB depth and experience. There are hints that we might look for big bodied DL late in the draft or UDFA.
CB, LB, S…quite probably our top 3 picks. While some people suggest trading back, I’m sensing an opportunity to grab 3 starters/contributors on defense and infuse the team with youth, speed, and cheap contracts. Why not trade 2 of our 3 3rds to get into the second round with hopes of grabbing 3 of Obi, King, Jones, Cunningham, Watt, etc…maybe a bit of a pipe dream, but it has to be on our radar. This has the makings of a winning offseason that can set us up for the next 3-4 years.
On a side note, what other websites bring this level of high quality analytical content about the draft and give perspective on a variety of players? I’ve been to some but absolutely none touch this one. I love the Seahawks perspective but beyond that the analysis is spot on and doesn’t simply just parrot what everyone else is saying.
Thank you Mike, those kind words are appreciated.
I’ll second that. I’m on here every day and it’s by far the best seahawks site
Yep, I head here 1st and more often than all of my other online football-fix sites. Draft “season” has become highly enjoyable!!! Thanks for all you do, Rob!
Nothing redundant about that. Two totally different types.
I’d consider a small trade up, if necessary in round one, perhaps leveraging a 2018 or one of our 3rd/4ths in doing so. I just think with the Sid Jones news we are in serious danger if missing out on one of King/Conley/Humphries/Obi/Wilson (presuming Lattimore long gone).
Reddick and maybe J. Davis make sense at LB, but both currently projected to be gone.
What are some fallback options? Ramczyk or Lamp? Can’t say I’m thrilled. Maybe Tim Williams? Cunningham? This clouds things for me as I had Sid Jones a top 20 lock.
I’d still consider Corey Davis or OJ Howard, maybe Njoku if they were to fall, but unlikely they do.
We should still be targeting corners and OL, but we could miss the value cutoff. Trade down?
That kid Rod Henderson is perfect for our scheme
I amin love with him now. 340lbs?? That POWERSOURCE Is huge!!!
26: R1P26
EDGE T.J. WATT
WISCONSIN
58: R2P26
CB AHKELLO WITHERSPOON
COLORADO
90: R3P26
WR CHRIS GODWIN
PENN STATE
102: R3P38
CB SHAQUILL GRIFFIN
UCF
106: R3P42
S JOHN JOHNSON
BOSTON COLLEGE
I like Watt as well, but have seen Witherspoon mocked a few times now in R2. Too early for me.
Sidney Jones suffered a significant injury. This is always distressing to hear. When a player has yet to make it in the NFL and might miss the majority of his rookie campaign due to injury.
I feel bad for the kid…i’d draft him in the 3rd round if he is still available…
Agree with the implications of Rob’s question about the pro days. WTH is Sidney Jones doing performing at a pro day in the first place? A week after the draft? Unless you screwed up at the combine or weren’t invited, you shouldn’t even be performing at the pro days. You should just be cheering on your teammates that are performing and meeting with teams.
BTW, for those of you hoping to now snap up Jones as a bargain….for me, he’s off my draft board.
I’ve gone through a full rupture of the Achilles. I’m still playing soccer, and still plenty fast for my age, but I used to be a pretty good jumper. That spring is just gone. Not worth the bet, IMO.
Interesting…
Achilles are brutal. It’s a way rougher injury than an ACL.
He’s definitely worth a look in the second or third if he lasts IMO. Pro players have access to different, ah, tools of rehabilitation than most of us.
tragic… I feel awful
Biegel is interesting especially in the 3rd. Count me in.
I like Watt as a prospect but where does he fit on the team? Would he play enough? I could see him being a LEO and the 4th DE while also playing SAM when they want him too, leaving Bennett, Avril and Clark on the line. But is DE his best position?
Watt is a more talented Clay Matthews with equal passion for the game. Matthews is an awesome OLB and a great ILB. He’s been a Pro Bowler at each. He rushes from right end in their passing situations. The guy is great and versatile. He’s a football player. I don’t think we need to pigeonhole Watt right now. Let the coaches decide once they see him with the rest of the Seahawks. The one thing we know, Watt will help this team in a major way somewhere.
He would be the SAM for what 25% of the snaps? He could be the guy backing up Wagner and Wright too, but how often is he realistically gonna be on the field? 45- 60% tops? When King would be virtually 100% and Obi would be 75% if you follow last year’s trend. I just think there’s better value and better fits.
Also, just because he tested better doesn’t mean he will even compare to Clay.. Matthews is one of the smartest players in the entire league. He has elite instincts and intangibles. We talk about generational talents and Clay is at the top of the list.
I think he’d be on the field early at SAM and RDE on 3rd and 8 type situations. That’s a guy who’d play most of the time.
And of course I know there’s no guarantees he’ll be like Clay just because he tested better. Do you really think I’m that stupid?
That looks harsh. Sorry. But of course we know tests aren’t the only indicator.
No worries, I don’t think you’re stupid at all, just figured I’d put It in there.
Waaaay overstating Clay’s abilities in my opinion. Pro Bowler and perennial All-Pro candidate, yes. Generational talent? No way.
TJ Watt is a smart player with the instincts and intangibles you are looking for. Watching the video Rob provided in the post reveals a cerebral player who knows what his assignment is on every play. There is a nuance to his play beyond his size and athleticism and he articulates it very well.
I disagree. He’s got the physical ability and all that but what really sets him apart is his intelligence. He’s probably the smartest defensive player in the league next to Sherm. Football-wise. I should have said it like this, there are generational athletes but Clay is more in a category like generational mind. Like Peyton Manning. Just so smart its such an underrated trait
That isn’t be how the linebacker snaps will get divided if we draft the right talent, in theory. About 25% of the snaps all 3 LBs will be on the field, but for the other 75% there will be a rotation. Best case scenario–each set of 2 LBs will get an even number of snaps. So all 3 will play 50% of the snaps (approx). Giving Wright and Wagner fewer snaps per game is a big impact over the full season/playoffs.
That’s not what I’d call value in the end of round 1 though. Rob has highlighted our willingness to get different types of LBs meaning we can get the mid/late round guys and accommodate for their downsides and they can still be effective.
It’s the role Riddick would have if he was taken at #26.
Rob. Do you see an earlier falloff of talent among linebackers or defensive backs? I’m now thinking trade back with 2 linebackers taken in the 2nd and the corners and safety (Luani?) filled out in the 3rd.
Linebackers.
Extremely top heavy LB class.
Any sleepers you like, Rob?
Biegel and Jordan Evans are two for me, obviously.
How is your short shuttle search coming? Standouts?
I’m digging through all the guys at the combine now who had good short shuttles. Started with Biegel and Watt now going through the list.
Smattering of LB throughout
Deep and diverse array of defensive backs that will be available to select from into day 3
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000792190/article/move-the-sticks-notebook-melifonwu-rising-into-round-1-range
oh crap, the word is getting out
They have the highlights from the combine attached…. the 40s are ridiculous.
“The first round of the upcoming draft is going to feature several future Pro Bowlers. However, the sweet spot of this draft is actually in the second and third rounds. I can’t recall a better year to own multiple selections between picks 33 and 107. In my opinion, there is very little separation from a player you can find at pick 20 vs. the player you can find at pick 60.” – Daniel Jeremiah
The word was already out. NFL teams are not going to announce who they like in the first round. Obi, is a top 40 pick. We may be able to trade back and still get him while adding a pick.
And the Hawks are tied w the browns for highest number of picks in that top 107…
I’d be thrilled with Watt at #26. If we get he or King (or even Obi)… I’ll be pleased.
This is what I look at with Watt:
1. He could be a Leo.
2. He could be a SAM.
3. He could play ILB in a 3-4 (I really don’t need a refresher in what the Seahawks do or don’t do, I’m just saying)
Basically, this guy has the capability to play at a high level at a lot of positions. If he busts at one, he’s got other options to help the team. Personally, I don’t think it’s possible for someone with his talent, genes, work ethic, and love of football to bust.
Personally, I think his best position as a pro is a better version of Chris Clemons. And, yes, that’s saying a lot!
In obvious pass rushing situations, you’d have: Avril, Bennett, Clark, and Watt. Right now, we rush three and Marsh slowly runs into a tackle and stays nullified the entire play and that’s it. We’re playing 10-on-11 football in those situations. With Watt, we can play 11-on-11 again when it’s 3rd and 8.
“I really don’t need a refresher in what the Seahawks do or don’t do”
😂😂😂😂😂 you can say that again !👋👋
Versatility is key. Dude can just play ball
Hey pro tip: The rest of the league looks at what a player can’t do, but the Seahawks like to look at what a player can do. 🙂
I like Obi and Watt both for the reasons you mentioned, they seem very versatile.
If two of the three of Watt, Obi, and King are gone at #26… I’m not going to care who we get as the “leftover” guy. And I don’t think all three of them will be gone.
+1
Great comment and I think the same. Also feel like reddick, Davis and lamp could be added to that list but reddick and lamp seem destined to be gone of course
DJ Fluker to the Giants. The options for adding another starting caliber o linemen continue to shrink.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MikeGarafolo/status/840733422549110784
If it’s not Lang I’ll bet it’s Brian Schwenke. Not as sexy of a signing but he’s quality and can play guard and center.
Huge fan of TJ Watt. I’ve been advocating him on here for the last few months. If you had to rank the draft by “sure thing” TJ would be a top-five pick. Great athleticism, solid production, great personality, the “watt” work ethic. You couldn’t ask for a lower risk first round pick.
That said, I just can’t see us taking him in the first There are other special players at bigger position of need. I was really hoping that he could slip to seattle’s second round pick, but he really helped himself at the combine.
He’s going to be a quality player for someone though.
Hi Rob,
With the injury to Jones would you consider taking him at 26 and redshirting him whilst signing a free agent such as Claiborne as a stop gap? Jones is so talented I feel we could have a future steal here?
I wouldn’t.
For starters, you’d have to pay big money to land a veteran cornerback now without knowing what’ll happen in the draft, who’ll be there etc. And Seattle is big on 32 inch arms and that isn’t Sidney Jones.
If Jones is still there when we pick in the second can you see us taking him? Assuming Kevin King is off the board before 26 and TJ Watt is on the board the hawks could get the linebacker they want along with a corner like Akhello in the third, so why not take a potential top 15 pick who could be back by the playoffs?
Maybe, but he doesn’t have 32 inch arms.
If Jaylon Smith only drops to the early second round a year ago I doubt Sidney Jones falls into the deep second.
Smith was an all day top-5 talent though, even if at a non-premium position. Jones is good, really good, but with such a deep corner class I don’t think it’s unreasonable that he’d drop down to the late second.
I forgot about the arms though, which unfortunately does mean Seattle won’t take him.
Cornerback also a much more important position. Myles Jack also only fell to the top of round two.
Hawks has only 16M cap space.
If they get Lang, would they trade Graham for a Pick?
The Hawks will have no problems fitting Lang under the cap should he sign. Only problem would be if he was asking an outrageous amount of money, like north of $25 mil/year. He’s probably asking in the $8-$12 mil/year range. As for trading Graham, I’m not for it. We would probably get nothing better than a third for him given his lower production here and patella tendon injury. We should consider this his contract year and expect him not to be resigned until late in the season, at best.
thanks,Aaron.
It lacks probability.
We could also get him to agree on a back-loaded contract, however unlikely.
Graham’s production here would have nothing to do with his trade value. People seem to forget that he averaged a career high in YPC.
I think I’ve decided finally between King and Obi for my dream pick, and I’m joining the Rebel army to side with Obi Won. His range is insane, I mean insane, Earl Thomas-Esque. And he’s as big as Kam. He blows up screens and outside runs as fast as linebackers for 5 or more extra yards back. He’s a freakin Seahawk if I’ve ever seen one. Later on in his career he’ll put on weight and be able to play in the box more. He could play corner. The possibilities at endless.
I have nothing negative to say about King, either, it’s just a matter of depth at the corner position. If JS/PC see a guy falling to the second that they like they will probably spend the first rounder elsewhere, considering they’ve never drafted a corner before round 4.
Obi, Akhello Witherspoon, DeMarcus Walker, Vince Biegel, Jehu Chesson might be my dream first 3 rounds. Walker probably goes earlier though.
+10
King is such a consolation prize type pick.
The kind I would love after a substantial trade-down
– 10 ( :p )
Kevin King plays a premium position, comes from a similar scheme, and has the size to match up with TE’s and the athleticism to keep pace with smaller slot receivers.
I like King. Both are unique, Obi more so.
PAC-STAR 🙂
Obi Won all the way, Coleslaw! I think that’s the player PC wants. Obi, Witherspoon, Walker, and Biegel would be a pretty sweet haul for that defense.
TJ Lang Twitter following update!
Justin Britt and Germain Ifedi are now following him. Go Hawks!
Hopefully TJ Lang knows that he can fly a sea plane to work if he stays here with us. Best owner in football, too. Hell, the ‘pros’ side of his list has to be HUGE.
I’m not on the TJ Watt train, at least at 26. I think there will be better options. Guys without an explosive first step can turn out like Courtney Upshaw. I like Watt plenty, I just don’t love him like a handful of other players. I could well be wrong about him. Maybe he’s more than I think. Can he spell Wright and Wagner? Can he cover well? I’m concerned he won’t be more than a just a SAM in our scheme, and factoring snap usage, guys like that can be found later.
1st: Reddick/Top CB/C. Davis/Obi/J. Davis
2nd: Mixon/Z. Cunninghamm/Tim Williams(?)/(S)/(CB)/OT
3rd: A. Witherspoon/(S)/Godwin/C. Henderson/Moton/Engram/OT
I’m curious which Safeties other than Obi, 26th and beyond that are worth considering and draft range? Evans?
I’ll give you a dollar if you stop putting Mixon on your list. 🙂
Broncos add DT Zach Kerr. Dang it. That was the other DT I wanted Seattle to pursue. Looks more and more like they going to see what the draft brings.
I’m curious. If the Seahawks sign tj Lang and joekel both guards. Does that mean the Hawks move ifedi to rt and release Gilliam?
Good question Isaac. Someone would have to play tackle. Hopefully it would be Joeckel and Ifedi with Glow and Lang playing guard. Probably negotiate a lower salary for Gilliam and keep him as depth.
Guard is unlikely to be where Jockel plays. More than likely it would be RT for him.
Issac. Brock /Salk were talking about that yesterday. They said the the Wouldn’t have any tackles. The woujd have an inside guard and an outside guard.
Not necessarily. Gilliam was tendered for $1.7M. He’d provide competition and he’s a viable swing tackle.
Lang does have some experience at tackle, and Joeckel was of course drafted to be a tackle, Ifedi was a right tackle for two year at TAMU.
I could see any one of these possibilities.
Fant, Lang, Britt, Ifedi, Joeckel
Fant, Joeckel, Britt, Lang, Ifedi
Joeckel, Glow, Britt, Lang, Ifedi
Lang, Joeckel, Britt, Glow, Ifedi
Lang, Glow, Britt, Ifedi, Joeckel
C-Dog,
Fant-Lang-Britt-Ifedi-Joeckel is the lineup I see. Big upgrade from last year
Very possible, and that’s probably the popular one. I know they’ve said that they want to keep Ifedi at RG, but I wonder if, with the addition of Lang, that changes things, and they would feel he could settle into RT more confidently knowing he has a solid pro bowl vet next to him. Also, I wonder if Joeckel replaces Glowinski at LG where he might offer more of the physicality Cable prefers there.
How about:
Lang-Glow-Britt-Ifedi-Joeckel
Not out of the realm of possibilities
Give me Fant-Glow-Britt-Ifedi-Gilliam
Sure, you can have that. $8million is a bit expensive for swing tackle but if that’s the best five, then that’s all that really matters.
Joeckel could play tackle. Has the size and experience there.
I am totally sold on (Clay Matthews) I mean T. J. Watt. This guy is TOUGH against run. Played in the Big Ten. Had a pick six. 11.5 sacks. 15.5 TFL. He can also drop back in coverage. He is a gym rat. The Guy camps out in the film room. Watt lives for football. He is not an Aldon Smith or Robert Nkemdiche. He is physically bigger than Clay Matthews. Matthews weighs 240 .Watt is 252
But yet his numbers at the combine are very similar. Watt plays with aggressive PASSION. In fact a number of mock drafts now have Matthews I mean T.J. Watt in the late part of the first round.
The Clay Matthew comparisons are lazy. Watt reminds me a bit of Damontre Moore.
It all seems irrelevant since John Schneider is going to trade back for more picks anyway.
Bingo!!! 2 picks in the 2nd. 4 picks in the 3rd
I would advocate for the trade, if we’re getting a third out of it (an additional one).
Why are they lazy?
They both played the same role and position in college.
Domantrae Moore was a DE in a 4-3. Totally different type of player
Matthews and Watt have such different body types.
TJ Watt is Paul Kruger on steroids
Is that a guy that you’re drafting in the first?
By all means….
Paul Kruger…though….total JAG. Hopefully Watt’s comp is someone else!
Little off topic but Jordan Miller is the successor at cb for the huskies and if junior day is any indication, could be their next stud. Was clocked at sub 4.4, 41 in vert and over 11 ft broad.
Played corner last year in some packages.
I’m not on the TJ Watt train, at least at 26. I think there will be better options. Guys without an explosive first step can turn out like Courtney Upshaw. I like Watt plenty, I just don’t love him like a handful of other players. I could well be wrong about him. Maybe he’s more than I think. Can he spell Wright and Wagner? Can he cover well? I’m concerned he won’t be more than a just a SAM in our scheme, and factoring snap usage, guys like that can be found later.
1st: Reddick/Top CB/C. Davis/Obi/J. Davis
2nd: Mixon/Z. Cunninghamm/Tim Williams(?)/(S)/(CB)/OT
3rd: A. Witherspoon/(S)/Godwin/C. Henderson/Moton/Engram/OT
I’m curious which Safeties other than Obi, 26th and beyond that are worth considering and draft range? Evans?
Reply
I’m somewhat of the same opinion Misfit. I like Watt plenty and would be happy to see him as a Seahawk. Just not sure he’s worth the first pick. Would so much prefer Reddick, Obi or King (or an offensive weapon freak like Njoku). In the end, I think Obi will be available at 26 and I think he’ll be the pick.
Nothing wrong with exploring alternative possibilities, but let’s not overthink this. SEA met with Obi, they’ve shown keen interest in him, he fits their physical profile perfectly, he’s highly athletic, highly versatile, solves multiple problems on the defense in 2017 and beyond.
I like Kevin King a lot. And SEA need a RCB badly. But Obi makes more sense. Also, SEA have never drafted a CB in R1, but they have drafted a safety and a LB in R1 before. Obi is a bit of both.
Even so, if Obi’s not available, or *gasp* they pass on him, there are other options at safety position both early and later. Here are my favorites in descending draft order (with a mark * by the ones they’ve met with thus far):
Justin Evans R1-R2
Budda Baker* R1-R2
Fabian Moreau R2
Marcus Maye R3-R4
Josh Jones R3-R4
Montae Nicholson R4
Marcus Williams R4
Shalom Luani* R4-R5
John Johnson R5
I’m not seeing it with Evans. I get the name and the school but to me his tape is all over the place. Did he injure himself at the senior bowl?
Fabian Moreau as a transitional player in round 2? Is that a hedge that he could play CB? personally I doubt Seattle would pick a swing guy for two positions that didn’t meet one of their core criteria. The arm length.
Marcus Willams. Probably in the fourth is fair. Though I don’t understand why he’s considered so low. He’s more explosive then most of the other DB’s as a whole. I guess he’s not known for “blowing,” people up and he was injured part of last year keeping his stock down. I think Evans lays a bigger hit but I think Williams is the better player.
What about Eddie Jackson?
Baker excites me the most, but Evans and M. Williams could be there past rnd 1 if Baker and Obi were gone from that position group. Nice list! I don’t recall Williams’ a length. I thought Fabian missed the cutoff?
At 26? Hellllll no please.
Underwhelming
Both are probably day 3 picks
Rayshawn Jenkins:
Great combine and really physical strong safety with good size.
Lorenzo Jerome:
Great instincts and has excellent kick return skills, didn’t test well but didn’t look out of place at the senior bowl. Plays allow over the secondary
Seattle goes all out for the offense in FA. Seattle goes all out for the defense in the draft. Perhaps not a bad way to go.
26: R1P26
EDGE T.J. WATT
WISCONSIN
58: R2P26
CB AHKELLO WITHERSPOON
COLORADO
90: R3P26
S JOSH JONES
NC STATE
102: R3P38
EDGE DAESHON HALL
TEXAS A&M
106: R3P42
CB MARQUEZ WHITE
FLORIDA STATE
210: R6P26
DL JOSH TUPOU
COLORADO
226: R7P8
LB BLAIR BROWN
OHIO
Pete Carroll gets his Watt, and John Schneider gets his Badger. The great consolation prize for not landing Kevin King is getting Witherspoon who probably fits this defense plenty well. They get a big athletic Safety in Josh Jones to groom behind Kam and Earl. They bring local kid Daeshon Hall home to groom behind fellow former Aggie Mike B. They add another long corner in White.
Seattle doesn’t do much in FA for DT, if anything, but they add a massive run stopper Josh Tupou to replace John Jenkins, and Tony McDaniel. Seattle drafts athletic Blair Brown to backup Bobby Wagner.
I like Josh Jones quite a bit.
So there are two posters on this blog who use the same layout for their mocks. And both consider Witherspoon a consolation prize for not drafting King.
I guess I’m not understanding why Seattle would break their pattern of 4th round CB’s for a guy who is a great cover corner and he did have great pass defense last year, but for him to not be a complete CB?
I’ve seen a lot of posters talking about fixing his tackling but the dude doesn’t tackle. Which is a huge deal on this team. Hell Earl still does special teams coverage from time to time and Sherman is seen still as one of the best CB’s in run support. I just don’t see how you can “teach,” a guy to do something that he ahs never shown a natural willingness to do in years.
Again he’s a great sticky corner who uses his length to defend passes. He’s not a natural at turning his head around to to get INT’s. And he seems to approach run support like it might not be his job.
I think the projection is based on the more glaring need Seattle now has at corner and the level of talent in this draft. This year Seattle could draft a corner day two that in other year could be a first round pick.
You bring up a good point with Witherspoon. It will be interesting to see if they bring him in for a VMAC visit. If they do, you can expect them to address the issue of his tackling. If they take him high, they would feel confident that his tackling issues are a very correctable thing, and with everything is he brings in terms of coverage length and the athleticism that frankly can’t be taught, they aren’t going to find that with any other player at any other point in the draft. This team drafts on traits as much if not more than any other team.
Yeah the tools are all there for sure. And the VMac visits will be important. I like him. So when I play devils advocate I’m just thinking the round may be too high. I just worry that bad form is one thing to be retaught but not doing it could be something else all together.
Prediction:
after having two years to develop a connection with Russell Wilson, Graham Balls out in his contract year , and protected by an improved fant, lang, britt, an imporved ifedi and Joeckel, Wilson has a career year as young defensive draftees bring the defense back to dominance.
Seahawks win superbowl 52.
For those who are curious, Adrian Peterson is visiting the Seahawks
Interesting…
That meeting is apparently scheduled for later today. We will see what will come of it
We found out Langs’ decision tomorrow also…
“we” find out Lang’s decision, but I imagine the team already knows that he’s accepted their contract. It makes sense that they would start focusing on the RB position once Lang was locked up. They would need to know what kind of money they have left before meeting with any other free agents.
Lang started following the official Seahawks twitter account yesterday. At this point essentially the entire seahawks offensive line is following Lang. Ifedi, Britt and Fant started following him over the last 24 hours.
Lang is signing with seattle. Now let’s see which vet RB they can get with whatever money is left over.
Can’t call it final, of course, but I tend to think along these same lines too. He’s possibly accepted in principle, barring some outrageous counter offer from GB or DET. He is on record saying he would give GB right to match any offer:
“We told Green Bay all along that we’ll keep them updated on any other offers that come in, and really at that point it would just be, ‘Hey, this is what we’ve got sitting on the table, can you guys compete with it?’ Obviously we’re going to give them the first right of refusal,” Lang said, via ESPN.com. “[We will] let them know, ‘Can you come close? Can you match it? This is what we’ve got, this is what the market’s set at.’”
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/28/t-j-lang-plans-to-test-market-give-packers-chance-to-match-offers/
Also, for those who are saying he might just be using Seattle as leverage, I see hints of quite the opposite in the fact that he reportedly brought his wife along on the visit.
I’m confident he’s agreed to sign, or has maybe even signed, but we won’t hear anything until tomorrow. This will be a big news story when it’s announced and no self respecting PR person would announce this on a weekend. You want the best possible coverage so you wait until monday morning.
We’ll probably start seeing some leaks from the various “insiders” today, but nothing official until monday.
There is an outside chance that Lang is just one funny ass dude like a lot of linemen adn they all got along together!
wouldn’t explain why he started following the seahawks. Seattle is the only team twitter account he’s following.
I’d love to see him here and hope it gets finalized today. Him following Seattle seems like it has more weight than the Oline dudes.
Latavius Murray also visits on Tues, per Rappoport
And Jamaal Charles and Eddie Lacy later this week as well
Just thinking of Sidney Jones.
I guess with his Achilles’ tendon torn, he will fall to at least 45.
Does it make sense to get a top 15 player on everybody’s board trading our 2018 R1 pick, which most probably (I would think at least 95%) will be south of pick 20.
Of course one could do the same thing if King or Obi are still there at 45.
Having hopefully shored up OL by late Sunday😜 and a veteran RB by Tuesday😋
Giving up next years R1 pick, which could be absolutely anything (and might prove vital to a need area), for a guy with sub 32″ arms coming off a full achilles tear? Way too rich for my blood.
If the Hawks could somewhow get Obi, King and Bowser in Rd #1 and #2 I would gladly trade our 2018 1st rounder as you are basically getting another 1st round pick / talent just one year earlier. I make that trade ll day long but not for Jones.
The only thing worse than trading up for a pick is trading a future pick. Some of the worst trades of all time have involved trading away future picks for certain stars like RG3, Ryan Leaf and Herchel Walker. These deals set franchises back for a decade when the acquired player quickly turns into a bust.
@RapSheet
The #Ravens deal for RB Danny Woodhead is going to end up being large in this RB market: 3 year, $8.8M with $4.25M guaranteed.
6:27 AM – 12 Mar 2017
Wonder if that affects vet RB marked we are in. Woodhead is 32 and oft-injured as well.
Agree with what many have already said:
Fant – Lang – Britt – Ifedi – Joeckel
looks good to me.
Backup/competition could be:
Odhiambo – Asiata – Hunt – Glow – Gilliam
That should be a much-improved group with youth and upside. Sure, it’s going to cost a lot more, but that’s fine. When our offense can’t stay on the field, our defense gets worn out and looks a lot more average towards the end of games, less turnovers are created, more risk of injury, etc.
I agree with this but I personally hope the Joeckel deal is incentive ladden and that they try Ifedi at RT and he wins the spot. Still don’t understand why they took him in Rd #1 if the plan was to play him at RG.
I would prefer
Fant, Glowinski, Britt, Lang, Ifedi
Backups
Rees, Asiata, Hunt, Gilliam (Joeckel cut)
I was also surprised at their refusal to put Ifedi at T. Who knows, maybe they still will down the road, but until then, I think we just have to accept the fact that Ifedi can become a great G. Think Osemele.
Also, just because we fans haven’t seen it doesn’t mean they haven’t given it a shot in practice and seen that he is simply a better fit for G, even if he does look like he could play T on paper.
Seems good to me. Lang on the left side to help Fant with responsibilities along with Joeckel to give us hopefully whatever we think “league average,” looks like, would be a great benefit.
haha, good point about the “league average” we’ve been clamoring for.
In my mind, Joeckel will be Tom Cable’s greatest test yet. People say he can turn anyone into a lineman, and just hasn’t produced a great line since he has been given so little to work with (DL converts, raw athletes, etc.). Well, now at least he is being given a former #2 overall pick. Let’s see if he can fix what’s broken and turn him into a solid lineman for us.
JMO, but if they sign Lang I’m not entirely convinced they’ll take an O-lineman until day 3. And it should be a tackle anyways. They’re in need of 2. Got 1 in Joeckel.
With Kevin KIng”s gae tape and then athletic testing #s I really think he has about as much chance of being there at 26 as Redick. Both guys are incredibly rare athletes who should and will in all likelihood be top 20 picks. King the the best CB on the board.
When was the last time a college CB had great game tape, was 6-3 200lbs, Had 32″+ arms, Ran a 4.4 40yd and had the best short area quickness testing #s in the combine. The answer is never! With the Sidney Jones interview he is a lock to be a top 20 pick IMO.
Of the 4 SDB favourites heading into the combine (Bolles, King, Reddick and Obi) the only guy we will even have a chance at is Obi IMO and he is certainly a nice consolation prize.
Would absolutely to love to see what Pete and Richards could do with a guy like King however. If somehow he did make it to #26 he would be a pro-bowler in 3 years or less IMO.
Trev, I’m torn personally between King and Obi. Both are unique and could fill huge roles on the team.
On the one hand, King really is the ideal Seahawks CB. They would obviously love to add him. I think he will be there at 26 because other teams will prefer different types of CBs. Someone might even take Adoree Jackson before him for the KR value as well. Sidney Jones’ injury certainly doesn’t help the chances though. The chances that Reddick will be there is to me like Keanu Neal last year. Just not gonna happen.
On the other hand, just seeing how PC couldn’t contain his nervous excitement after seeing Obi at the combine, makes me think they might prefer him, trusting that one of the players currently in the CB factory can step up (most likely Desir). A 6-4, 224lbs guy who can move like that and is said to have such a high football IQ just doesn’t come along every year. That extra size that they might be able to deploy in the box might be the deciding factor.
Would love to get both, and think if any of the two fall, it will be Obi, but not far. Ahhh, draft season!
“With Kevin KIng”s gae tape and then athletic testing #s I really think he has about as much chance of being there at 26 as Redick. Both guys are incredibly rare athletes who should and will in all likelihood be top 20 picks. King the the best CB on the board.”
You could be right.
“According to a source close to King, he met with a representative of the New England Patriots this morning prior to his workout and left early with a member of the Los Angeles Chargers. Multiple teams have expressed a great deal of interest in King, including the Arizona Cardinals, Carolina Panthers, San Francisco 49ers, Seattle Seahawks and Tampa Bay Buccaneers.”
Just for good measure, he was also the only DB not to drop a pass during Pro Day workout.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/budda-baker-stars-john-ross-market-takes-shape-as-injury-clouds-washington-pro-day/
Pauline reports he also met with the Detroit Lions Friday night and has a private workout set up with the New York Jets.
All those teams draft too early in the 1st, except Bucs and Lions, and I don’t see the others trading ahead of Hawks with their 2nd round pick. So let’s hope Obi/King/Baker are all available at 21.
Rumor…
The Jets would consider trading Sheldon Richardson to the Bengals for A.J. McCarron. – Rich Cimini, ESPN
Of all the QB’s that the Jets could go for, A J McCarron would be my favorite…he played okay in a few games, and isn’t a career killer like Jay Cutler, has no controversy like Kapernick, and is still young…
If nothing else, McCarron becomes your future solid backup QB…
Saw that. It kinda makes sense. Personally, as a GM, I’d be nervous about adding Richardson, but if all it costs is a backup QB, I could be down for that.
Walterfootball took a shot at the Bengals, claiming they are the type of team who wouldn’t care anyway… ouch…
Pretty sure Obi will be gone by #26. I could see Dallas, NO or Atlanta moving up for him. Watch out for NE making a move too. That sly dog BB.
Could be… although I think early R2 is the range Obi will end up going, unless Seattle reaches on him to make sure they get him. I could even see JS having the balls to trade back and target him at the top of R2. He’s done it before, probably causing PC an anxiety attack each time! Some team is going to want to grab a QB.
I read somewhere Dallas is intrigued by Adoree Jackson (if they don’t like an edge rusher in R1, that is).
I think the safety Atlanta might look at is Budda Baker, pair him with Neal to have their own version of Earl+Kam.
NO already tried to imitate Seattle defense a bit with big corners and failed, and Sean Payton is on record saying #1 priority is to upgrade pass rush. They are also looking for QB of the future and have spoken with some of the top prospects. I think this will keep them busy in the first two rounds.
NE doesn’t even have a R1 pick as of right now, but you are right: you never know with BB. He’s the master of matchups, and Obi is a great guy to matchup at a ton of different spots around the field. Played college ball right there in their backyard too FWIW.
There are a couple of team’s with a lot of draft capitol who I think will be wanting to move back into the first and second round. It is going to be a hot draft for trader John.
My top 20 mock as of today (no trades):
1. (Browns) Garrett
2. (49ers) Trubisky
3. (Bears) Thomas
4. (Jag) Fournette
5. (Titans) Adams
6. (Jets) Lattimore
7. (Chargers) Hooker
8. (Panthers) Bolles
9. (Bengals) Foster
10. (Bills) Humphrey
11. (Saints) Allen
12. (Browns) Watson
13. (Cardinals) Mahomes
14. (Eagles) Reddick
15. (Colts) Robinson
16. (Ravens) Peppers
17. (Redskins) McDowell
18. (Titans) Ross
19. (Bucs) Cook
20. (Broncos) Ramzcyk
21. (Lions) Charlton
22. (Dolphins) McKinley
23. (Giants) Howard
24. (Raiders) Obi
25. (Texans) Lamp
I like that mock. My only question would be Jamal Adams going to Tennessee. Not a FS nor is Jonathan Cyprien. Wheres he fit?
Big nickel. Or maybe you flip Adams and Lattimore. Adams is a baller though.
Absolutely he is.
BPA: King, C. Davis, Barnett, and…?
Oh yeah, Budda ‘meet your’ Baker
I’m a bit baffled.
Its almost like every guy discussed won’t be there at 26 and then when alternative options are presented, the guy is either awful value or the holes in his game get picked apart.
And then if a prospect is a great athlete and tested well it automatically equals a day 2 pick at worst as if good, high upside, athletic freaks don’t slip through the cracks every single year.
Am I the only one noticing this?
If you mean Bolles/Obi/King/Reddick are all gone at 26, you do some trade backs. My other thought would be what about another offensive weapon. McCaffery/Davis/Williams/Njoku. Davis or Williams would give PC his big WR, McCaffery would give them a offensive chess piece and Njoku could be the cheap heir apparent for Graham next year. Not my wish, but when you get lemons, make lemonade.
I think were gonna see a situation similar to last year. Now CBs are more highly valued than DTs, and of course there’s gonna be a couple gone here and there, but the run on them is more than likely going to start late round 1.
What do you mean? Reddick at 20 and TJ Watt at 26?
Yes. Watt, Njoku, King, Obi, etc.
I think Obi is the only one of those that belongs in that range.
And that’s quite a project.
King has a very high floor imo, but in a deeeep class I don’t think we are quick to change our current MO on pure corners
It is a deep draft. Usually we have a sense of who the top five picks are. Can you confidently tell me who SF will pick? I have no clue. The talent on defense is impressive but there is always a need for QB’s and OL’s. I see the key to this draft being where those top 4 QB’s and top 4 OL’s go. If they do not go in the first 25 picks then there will be a trade back opportunity for Seattle because the drop off in talent at those positions is severe after they are selected. If they are off the board then Seattle will have an abundance of defensive talent to pick from. Either way it should be a good draft for the Hawks.
That’s my point. Its ridiculously deep. There’s gonna be a guy there that we’ve identified and discussed. And bank on the fact that a few picks are going to piss people off.
TJ Lang just called in on a Detroit radio show:
“We narrowed it down to those three teams (DET, GB, SEA) just because I felt that those were the three teams that were just ready to win now, great attitude around the programs, and hopefully figure something out here today.”
https://twitter.com/BradGalli/status/840953498200084480
I really like our chances by the remarks about “win now” and “great attitude”.
Welp!
Joeckel’s contract is a $7 million deal with $1 million in incentives in case anyone was wondering
A bit steep for me. Would have been ok with 4/5 with 3/2 incentives. How much guaranteed, if he stinks in camp, can he be cut and save?
The 7 million is guaranteed from what I heard
Well, let’s hope he looks like a #2 pick and balls at OT.
OG @TJLang70 has agreed to a 3 year contract with the @Lions
— Mike McCartney (@MikeMcCartney7) March 12, 2017
Thank God.
Adrian Peterson leave town, please
You won’t be thanking anybody if our OL stinks again in 2017…
I’ll be thanking you for warning me homie xD
Yeah not sure how not signing Lang is a positive
Snaps continue to go to young guys.
And Lang is a pro bowl level player at a position of weakness for us
* o n e probowl at the age of ~30 *
In a league of trash at the position
I think Packers fans rallied hard to the vote and name recognition came into play
“He’s been underrated for years”?
Keeps OL a cheap unit.
I didn’t like that he was ‘an immediate starter’
I like the potential of our guards and tackles
Lang’s agent just announced he’s signing with the Lions. Damn…
Can’t compete with being home
Perhaps we turn our attention to Breno or Pasztor now?
Color me inspired
I thought he was more serious about “win now”. Seems like the Packers and Seahawks fit that a LOT better than the Lions.
I have a feeling more will become clear once the contract numbers are released…
Can’t compete with being home.
Always compete.
We were beaten by a first grader who wanted to attend school with his friends.
What really scares me is that now an ol might be back in play for the first round. If they pass on say king or obi or watt for someone like cam Robinson well, massive disappointment would be feeling for me.
The hometown appeal was too much for him.
Damn. Detroit has one of the better O-lines in the league.
Decker, Lang, Glasgow, Tomlinson, Wagner.
Dahl, Swanson, Lucas, rookie?
Impressive.
What really scares me is that there is no confidence that these first round OL’s can play tackle. We could be overpaying for another Germaine Ifedi. What do we do with a first round developmental guard?
After the Joeckel cap hit news I knew it was a long shot to get Lang. Have to imagine Joeckel is being brought in to either be our starting LT or RT. There are still a few options for competition on the o line in FA. I still think they need to go DB with their first pick, and defensively heavy throughout. There are young depth and development o liners in the mid to late rounds. Not signing Lang shows me that not only was he asking too much, but the Hawks want to sign their own to extensions (i.e. Britt, Kam, and Jimmy).
Possible week 1 o line depth chart
LT: Fant, Odhiambo
LG: Glowinski, draft pick
C: Britt, Hunt
RG: Ifedi, draft pick
RT: Joeckel, Gilliam
Massively disappointed here.
Obi is going to pay a visit to the Seahawks, Steelers and the Saints
I think we gots 13 mil in useable cap space!
Why waste more cap space on stop-gap role players?
Because the cap is expected to jump by almost 20 million next year
@JasonLaCanfora
Dontati Poe en route to Indy for 1st visit. Colts want him long term but that’ll take big $. Poe willing to go 1yr route. ATL, MIA, OAK next
7:30 AM – 12 Mar 2017
I think he’s gonna end up betting on himself with a short deal
With Lang out who else is available?
Nobody.
(i.e. this list… http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/offensive-line/available/)
Nobody. Our next chance is the draft and then maybe a veteran is released in training camp somewhere.
I have little doubt that one of our prime targets will plop into our laps at #26 on draft day. My concern at the moment is the sick *Jared Allen feeling* upon hearing that TJ Lang has gone home to *sleep on it*. Still-guess we just have to rest easy in the knowledge that JS há given it his best shot. Hêres to hoping TJ*s dreams come to him in shades of neon green and navy b,ue tonight!
Oops! Looks like a lot went down while I was trying to type on this damned tablet. *-(
I think they paid too much for Joekel, but it’s only one year so either he balls and can resign, or lose him and get a comp.
I would actually prefer the lines mostly stays the same and the experience and chemistry makes them better.
Fant/Glow/Britt/Ifedi/Joekel
If Joeckel starts on the o line and plays like Okung did (i.e. league average) then the $8 mil cap hit was worth it imo. They still signed him at slightly below the going rate for OTs. While not getting Lang is disappointing, it’s really just PC and JS keeping their word. They don’t want to spend a ton on one guy to fix it all, and they didn’t. They want veteran competition and leadership, which they got. They want to balance that with continuity and chemistry, which they got. I hoped they would only change 2/5ths of the o line max this off-season, and it sure looks like that’ll be the case.
It looks like we are going to be scouting every college basketball team looking for an UDFA that can start on the O Line once again.
I mean no disrespect but lmao at everyone who thought following someone on Twitter was a sure sign at him signing. I think this was a ploy to get more money personally
In hindsight, sure appears that way now. At the end of the day it’s just a business for everyone and they all owe it to their families to maximize their paychecks.