Percy Harvin to Seattle? I can't see it
I had an email today from a reader called Chris. Thought it might create an interesting discussion…
Rob, I read today on Rotoworld that Percy Harvin is on the out. They say a second rounder and change. With the Hawks having so many picks, what about offering our second rounder and a 5,6, or 7? The only thing I wouldn’t like is that I thought we would be looking for a big receiver, rather than adding another 5-11 receiver. With that said, it’s Percy Harvin and could be reunited with Darrell Bevell. I would say that with Sidney Rice and Golden Tate on the outside along with Harvin in the slot, that would be a formidable trio. Thoughts?
Harvin is a truly dynamic receiver. Very few players enter the league with his playmaking talent. We’ve seen all kinds of prospects compared to Harvin — most recently Tavon Austin at West Virginia. The reality is nobody gets close. He plays bigger than his 5-11, 185lbs frame, gets off press and can stretch the field. He’s competitive. He has tremendous YAC value, is capable of handling a few snaps in the backfield and he’s one of the best kick returners in the league. He constantly finds ways to impact games and he’s been relatively productive despite awful quarterback situations in three of his four seasons in the NFL.
When you watched him at Florida, you knew he was a star in the making. Throughout his college career he just looked better. And despite concerns over drug use going into the 2009 draft, it wasn’t a big surprise he still ended up as a first round pick (#22 overall to Minnesota).
Age-wise he’s still young enough to warrant a decent contract. He’ll be 25 in May but still has at least four years of excellent production in his locker. He’s the quintessential scorer of cheap points. There aren’t many better than Harvin for making big momentum changes in a game. When he’s healthy, he’s one of the leagues best receivers, playmakers and all-round football players.
So why wouldn’t I make the trade?
For everything that’s good about Harvin, there’s nearly always a bigger negative. The report from Rotoworld quoted in Chris’ email refers to a piece by CBS Minnesota:
Sources tell WCCO’s Mike Max that the No. 1 reason Percy Harvin left the team this season was not his injury, but it was motivated by a blowup he had with Vikings head coach Leslie Frazier.
Multiple sources tell Max that Harvin had an embarrassing tirade directed toward Frasier, disrespecting the coach during the season when Harvin was sidelined with an injured ankle.
Teammates were present, and Max was told that is when Harvin left the team and was put on injured reserve.
Sources say teammates were disappointed in Harvin’s actions and the organization has moved toward less tolerance for that behavior.
Harvin apparently had a similar incident when Childress coached the team.
The Vikings will try to trade him, Max reports, as Harvin does have market value.
One of the key mantra’s within Seattle’s locker room is you have to be ‘all in’. They want players to buy into Pete Carroll’s vision. That doesn’t mean they’re bringing in robotic yes-men towing a party-line that isn’t working. It’s about putting the team first and so far it’s working. The Minnesota Vikings won ten games in 2012 and made the post-season. Yet Percy Harvin is trying to show up the coach? Why? It’d be partly understandable if they were destined for 2-14. The Vikings actually had a pretty remarkable season. But Percy’s not happy.
Me. Me. Me. Me. Me.
Ok — he’s been after a new contract. I get that. But you do your complaining in campe, make the point and then get on with the job. Right at the point Harvin should’ve been doing his best to enhance Minnesota’s playoff ambitions, he was doing the polar opposite. Not good.
The fact he also had tear-ups with Brad Childress also suggests this isn’t a one-off, contract based wrangle. Seattle has a pretty harmonic dressing room right now and the last thing they need is Percy Harvin acting as a distraction. We saw some of the playmaking qualities he possesses at Century Link in 2012 but cast your minds back. What else do you remember? That’s right, Percy screaming at his coach on the sideline. In a close game. Whether it was a legitimate gripe or not, there’s a time and a place.
Then there’s the injury history. In 2009 and 2010 he suffered severe problems with migraine’s and was constantly listed on the injury report as a consequence. He’s also suffered many other issues including ankle, hamstring, hip, shoulder and finger injuries. In 2009 he was listed as questionable seven times. He was on the injury report eight times in 2010, seven times in 2011 and five times in 2012 before being placed on injured reserve (missing Minnesota’s last five games). He’s competitive for his size when he’s actually on the field, but he’s also been quite brittle.
And finally there’s this article by Jeremy Fowler at TwinCities.com:
Vikings wide receiver Percy Harvin “epitomized the climate” of player entitlement under coach Urban Meyer at the University of Florida, according to a Sporting News report posted online Monday, April 9.
Harvin, who played for the Gators from 2006-08, reportedly was one of three players who missed the 2008 season opener after allegedly failing drug tests for marijuana – penalties dictated by university policy – although Meyer publicly blamed an injury for Harvin’s absence.
Harvin also refused to run stadium steps with the rest of the team during offseason conditioning before the 2007 season, according to the Sporting News, and once allegedly threw wide receivers coach Billy Gonzales to the ground by his neck.
Harvin reportedly wasn’t punished for either of those incidents, according to the report, and was treated differently as a member of Meyer’s “Circle of Trust.”
Harvin told strength and conditioning coaches while boycotting stadium runs, “this (expletive) ends now,” according to the report, and the team played basketball as conditioning the next day.
So it comes down to this — is he worth the hassle?
That’s not to say any deal is impossible. Marshawn Lynch was considered troublesome in Buffalo but he’s been a perfect professional for the Seahawks. John Schneider takes an aggressive approach to team building and he’s made similar deals in the past. He brought in Lynch, traded for Charlie Whitehurst and also found a way to land Chris Clemons in a bargain deal. They seriously considered a big trade for Brandon Marshall — who’s had his fair share of problems.
If Carroll and Schneider feel Harvin helps them get significantly closer to a Championship then maybe this could happen? Someone will show interest after all. Why not Seattle? They’re good enough to start considering the final moves that will push them towards title contention. And just like all potential trades (see: Darrelle Revis) they’ll no doubt do their homework and made an educated decision.
Right now I’d still say a trade to the Seahawks is unlikely. However dynamic Harvin can be on the field, you also need to be able to trust him off it. And as Carroll and Schneider build around Russell Wilson — I think they’ll be looking for guys who share his burning enthusiasm for success and hard work, not guys who are likely to scream at the coaches in the midst of a battle.
Daniel Jeremiah this week gave the Seahawks Keenan Allen in his latest mock draft. I suspect if the Seahawks do try to add a receiver, it’ll be the big, physical target they currently lack. Whether that’s a guy like Allen at 6-2/6-3 with the ability to compete in the air or a mobile tight end who can run a lot of receiver routes and act in the role Kellen Winslow would’ve taken had he made the cut — I think that’s what they’ll set out to add.
If they are willing to consider another receiver in that 5-11-6-1 range, why not go after DeAndre Hopkins? He might not be the most explosive receiver, but he’s reliable, consistent and will make life easier for Wilson. He might not have the same playmaking qualities as Harvin, but he could be more effective for this young offense.
Fortunately, the Seahawks are in an excellent position with Darrell Bevell having history coaching Percy. Not many other teams have the background information that he’ll have.
I know I’d be excited about the move, though, if they made it. As long as it wasn’t for more than a 2nd and change.
Great point regarding Bevell.
Really great point concerning Bevell.
1. Harvin might want to come to Seattle because of Bevell.
2. If Harvin does come here it’s because Bevell thinks he can make it work.
If Bevell says he can make it work, then ok…but what if then Bevell next year becomes a HC elsewhere?
Long term problem?
I’d rather have Da’Rick Rodgers…
Not a long term problem as long as his replacement knows how to use him, and I imagine after 1 year of play Pete will have that figured out.
It would seem from Rob’s article that Percy is not a player who wants to have a coaching staff who knows “how to use him”. Rather he wants to dictate how he is used. If so then he might have trouble in an offense that runs first and plays defense.
Not only will Bevell have a window on Percy but so will Rice. If they move on him then it would be with the confidence that it would work.
Just how serious the NFL is on going to the wider CFL field will have a large impact on player development in the immediate future. Percy in space is intriguing no doubt.
After dodging a poaching bullet this off-season (on offense at least…) I think the Seahawks coaches will be much safer following next year. I think Bevell wants to stay here at least long enough for a shot at the Superbowl with RW and I don’t think he will leave next year.
There shouldn’t be nearly as many head coaching vacancies this off-season, and remember that it was reported that Bevell “withdrew” his name from consideration for the Cardinals job after Seattle offered him a contract extension. Now maybe that was only because he knew he didn’t get the AZ job, but I am gonna think optimistically and assume that he wants to be here for a while longer.
One more thing to add. Having Sidney Rice offers a teammate’s perspective, as well, which can only help. If both Bevell and Rice offer a good recommendation that will only help Seattle to find the best value for him, in terms of a trade and new contract. They should be able to make the right decision.
I agree. Bevell and Sid are so “bought in” to helping this team win a championship that, I would imagine, that they would give 100% accurate assesments of Harvin and the type of guy he is rgardless of their knowing how explosive he would make the offense.
Also, I don’t remember him being an issue when he was surrounded by reputable men that demanded respect that he had to defer to: Bevell,Favre,Hutch,Birk,Sid,AP. And, on the Seahawks he would be in another situation where is nowhere near the top of the totem pole and would have to defer to guys like RW,Rice,Miller,Lynch,Mike Rob,Unger,Okung.
Everyone is focussed on his relationship with Bevell — but what about his history of injuries? I say no to trading for him.
The thing that has always overshadowed Harvin’s overwhelming talent is his complete lack of reliability. He’s always dinged up, or having a “migrane” headache. He isn’t a tough, tireless worker that you see across this Seattle roster. Will this team take him in and show him the way? Will he pitch a fit when things get too hard for him? Will Russell’s tenacious study habits rub off on him? I don’t see how you can trust this kid. He’s ALWAYS been all about himself.
Good point about Russell. Those 2 do not sound like they’d mix well at all. Percy is just the guy to pull the vet vs. newbie attitude B.S. as well if Russell tries to get him to act like a professional.
I think Wilson has already established enough credibility within the entire Seahawks organization that veterans like Rice and Sherman would have none of that. Can you imagine Sherman getting in Harvin’s face for trying to put down Wilson with a vet vs newbie attack? It wouldn’t get off the ground.
Besides, Wilson is so composed that I suspect he would find a way to handle Harvin without the veterans ever having to get in Harvin’s face.
I’m perfectly happy with Golden Tate’s abilities. These kids in the draft are more exciting.
Only argument against your anti-Percy argument was that Christian Ponder sucked. He was terrible as a starting QB, maybe he had disagreements on packages and playcalling, who knows, but when you have a diva receiver like him, you better have a QB that can supplant his ego, and can get him the ball.
Although I do feel him on the team is basically another Tate, Harvin can add more on special teams and could be an heir to Washington when he does move on. He’s a special player when the ball is in his hands, and PC loves players like that. I’d be more than happy if we can get him for a 2nd rounder plus.
What would we have to pay Harvin though? I would give a second rounder for Harvin any day of the week and twice on Sunday as long as Bevell thinks he can make it work but if harvin wants 8-10m a year than no thanks. I do think he would be worth 4-6m a year though with what we could do with him in the backfield/slot/ and PR/KR.
Some talk of a second and a fourth rounder. Picking late in the second makes it difficult though because teams higher will be willing to pay that price. While a second and a fourth is appealing IF you can trust him, having to cough up a first rounder or a second + third becomes expensive. Especially given the issues on defense and the concerns raised in this piece.
I would expect a lot of the speculation to place Harvin in Miami, and I gotta say it would make a lot of sense. They need a receiver in the worst way, and have extra an 2nd rounder (Davis) and 3rd rounder (Marshall).
That would make a lot of sense.
Good points. To add to that, the Dolphins are expected to let Reggie Bush leave in FA. They have the draft capital and the need at receiver and returner. The only thing that makes me not so sure is that I believe that Miami has some cap issues.
Exactly, what would we have to pay him. It only makes sense to trade if he signs a new contract. We are not going to give out a huge contract for another receiver. If Harvin really wants to come here to play with Bevell and Rice and is willing to sign a decent contract to make it happen then maybe but I do not see that happening.
Although the off-field problems make for better copy, the injury history is a deal-breaker for me. He’s at his peak right now, has never been a workhorse player yet still has been unable to stay on the field. He’s not likely to get any healthier.
At the same time it’s because of his issues that he is even available. We are talking about the most dynamic playmaker in the entire NFL.
Following up on Zach’s comment, if we could sign him long term deal at 4-6 m per year AND Bevell felt comfortable adding him to our locker room then I would consider a trade like this; QB Matt Flynn and Seattle’s 3rd round draft choice for Percy Harvin.
If Harvin met our criteria next season for 1) playing time and 2) attitude (defined by Bevell/PC/JS) then Minnesota will also recieve Seattle’s 5th round pick next season.
No doubt just imagining Percy Harvin as a Hawk conjures up extreme excitement for all of us and I do believe in giving people the chance to start over and make a new beggining for themselves.
He is still so young too. In Seattle he would be thought of as the most explosive player on our team. In Minny he’s second fiddle to AP who gets alllll the attention. He will get more mature the older he gets and hopefully he just needs a new young team to renew his identity. I would bet my last dollar that PC/JS are talking with Bevell right about now.
The Flynn point is interesting because they are one of the few teams I could see having some genuine interest in him. They really need someone to compete with Ponder.
I’m not sure about this… because trading for Flynn creates a QB controversy and there’s no guarantee of an upgrade. They could be jumping from one melodrama to another.
So more drama bringing Flynn onto the team, but guarantees a more competitive team. Either Ponder gets pushed (or developed) to be better, or Flynn is the better QB. Either way, the Vikings are a better team, perhaps by a lot.
The trouble I have with Harvin is giving up ANY draft capital. If this was a FA gig, and you could write a contract with appropriate caveats, then great, take the chance. But once the Vikings use the pick, it’s gone, no matter how well or poorly Harvin turns out.
Finally, he is the polar opposite of a PC guy. And the one thing that is the most difficult to change is character, and the best way to judge character is by a person’s actual behavior.
Harvin is bad news and unlike stars like Revis (or even Lynch – not really a comparable situation) no way he gets the opportunity.
The only variable that changes this dynamic is Bevel and Rice – if they know something we don’t, and are confident they can work with Harvin, then that would change the equation (at least from the outside looking in).
The current GM put his faith in Ponder to the tune of the #12 pick. He’s going to back his own judgement, not create an environment where after every bad game Ponder has people are second guessing a change or calling for Flynn to start. It would be totally counter productive and for what? To lose Harvin and have Matt Flynn? It won’t happen.
agreed. until they get more talent around Ponder they’ll never know what they have. trading for another QB doesn’t solve that problem, and may even compound it.
It doesn’t help that they took a 2nd round talent at 12.
I agree that probably wouldn’t take Flynn, but that may end up being a weakness…the inability to compete/be competitive at that position…Plus, what if Ponder got hurt, Webb??
Oh My No… I like watching Percy play, but we knocked him out of the game last year-he gets hurt! And I know others disagree and are tired of hearing this, but I bet Tavon Austin will be as dynamic as Percy, without the character issues, and WAY cheaper… If he is there at our R2 pick, and we went DT/DE R1, he could be a Percy Harvin like player! Few agree though on the ‘risk’…
Why not just try using our high round draft picks for a receiver or two? In three years we have only picked Tate in the high rounds. If we make more of an effort in the draft im sure we will be as successful as we have in other positions.
Harvin is only worth a 4th to me, we have a greater need for big bodied receivers.
I hate to rain on everyone’s parade…. but we need to remember that Bevell is not in charge. For as much of a playmaker as Harvin is, he really doesn’t fit the criteria of a Carroll/Schneider receiver. Combined with a 2nd round pick as admission for his services, and you can say no thanks to this.
For my $$$ I’d rather them just draft one or two of these kids coming out. Let the Vikings implode on their own. They don’t need our help.
The Vikings should just have to give him to us for free… As far as I’m concerned those bastards still owe us for stealing Hutch.
They didn’t steal Hutch. Seattle allowed themselves to get screwed. Ruskell had all season to get him an extension and didn’t.
We could talk all day about Ruskell’s incompetence, but the “poison pill” crap they pulled was just shady. It undermines the efforts made to allow teams to keep their star players. The league wasn’t happy about it at the time, and under the new CBA it is no longer allowed.
That’s true, but it doesn’t eliminate the fact that Seattle could have avoided the issue altogether by getting him an extension during the season or franchising him. Unforgiveable mistake.
True and true. And Holmgren would have done either but his hands were tied. Word was he was furious when he heard about the Transition tag used.
Good Lord… That’s old news…
i’m with you colin! There’s way to much unknown with him. how long is he going to be healthy this time, how much is he going to want for an extension (because throwing a 2nd rounder for a year’s worth of play is dumb) and how much attention/cancer is he going to be, and the main unknown is how would him and RW clash? Wilson wants his receivers in the film room and practicing as much if not more then him to build that rapport. can Harvin follow the lead?
Now Seattle does have an edge over everyone due to Bevell and Rice being former team mates but that was 2 years ago. they might have good opinions of him but those are 2 years removed from being around him. Don’t get me wrong tho, the kid is a stud once that ball is in his hands but I REALLY don’t see seattle going for him. On the opposite side of the story if Seattle did pursue him we have enough to entice the Vikings.
package Flynn (joe webb is not a backup), Washington (they’re losing a kr/pr), and maybe a 3rd. I loved the idea of incentive laden contract for him on a trade, its the only way seattle could cover their ass if he doesn’t pan out.
Yes and no. Ruskell really had no clue what he was doing to the franchise and losing Hutch was the magnum opus of his mismanagement not that his every day work wasn’t just as horrid. But the NFL should have rejected that contract. Seattle would have matched the deal he took from Minnesota but the terms of the contract created a second deal that they would have had to do under its terms. Other teams could have followed suit as Seattle did with Nate Burleson, but they had more class than MN.
DeAndre Hopkins reminds me of Sidney Rice. Maybe more consistent and explosive in routes, with slightly less big play ability.
The reality is Harvin will not be a Seahawk, more likely a Patriot. There are so many players that we can sign for long term big money deals and a slot receiver shouldn’t be one of them.
For my 2 cents, I’d rather wait and see how the free agent TE market looks, and go shopping there before I think about a trade for a WR. There are a number of young TE’s that look like good fits. Get Jared Cook and keep the draft pick, and avoid the Harvin Migraine. I don’t want a prima donna anywhere near Russell in his second year. Year 4 or 5? Sure. Not right now.
Great points. Why risk it in year 2 when the draft has some playmakers… FA TE’s, eh? I still prefer a draft pick.
3 total picks of WR and TE… 2/1
Imagine: Tavon Austin/Gavin Escobar/Da’Rick Rodgers
or, Ertz / Hunter / Dobson
or, Allen / Kelce / Fauria
Can’t wait to see, hopefully there are 3!! !
I think that if we are looking for a big receiver we could get Marquess Wilson at a bargain, I watched some of his tape and he really fights for the ball in the air which is something this front office values. Wilson also has good size and speed, although could add some weight. He was looking like a first rounder until his blow up with Mike Leach, which shouldn’t be held against him considering Leach has a history of these run ins. I don’t think he will ever be put in the same position with PC as coach, in fact some could say it would be the exact opposite. Wilson will be one of those late round players that everyone wonders why wasn’t he drafted higher.
Sing it brother!! I’d love to hear Seattle pulled the trigger in the 4th for Wilson!!
I agree with Wilson as a mid round option.
“Wilson to Wilson!! ………TOUCHDOWN!!!”
We would get used to hearing this A LOT!!!
I like that he is all ready used to living in Washington too… He would be a great catch!! GO JS/PC!
Between Pete and Russell, Rice and Tate, I bet he would be shown the path, and would choose it wisely.
No way they trade for Harvin. They’d like to find that kind of talent in the draft coming in under a first contract with a chip on his shoulder. They don’t want over-priced Prima Donna’s who will lock up the salary cap on their last contracts then be upset every week that they don’t get enough passes. It would be a waste of resources for a team trying to have a dominant run game as its foundation and a formidable pass offense that builds off of it.
I think they’d rather roll the dice on a Da’Rick Rogers or even a Courtney Gardner with the pick that it would take to get Harvin.
No doubt…then they are young and malleable, and cost peanuts! Add Marquisse Wilson, Justin Hunter, Brandon Kaufman, Aaron Dobson… So MANY choices, why go high risk – big money, when we don’t need to.
Seattle packages Flynn & Washington (they’re losing a kr/pr), swaps 1st & 3rds this year(move up a couple spots) & a conditional 6th in next season’s draft. Harvin isnt Calvin Johnson, lets not get it twisted the guy isnt worth the moon & the stars, this dudes a bit of a head case plus he’s injury prone. Just call ’em how I see ’em. Im not willing to mortage the farm for this guy, but something reasonable & I could be prone to welcome to welcome him to the team. This isnt not the most pressing need but if we could get him without cutting our wrists then OK.
So they are gonna give us their best playmake not named Adrian Peterson and move down in rounds 1 & 3 to pick up a kick returner and some mediocre competition at QB? When did Tim Ruskell take over the Vikings?
1st off let me say I doubt this deal gets done either, I think most deals fall through before they even start to take on any type of reality, however I was just trying to illustrate how much I believe would have to go in our favor to get this guy & then once we have him lets not lose sight, we would have to shell out & over pay big time, Im guessing $8-10 Million a year? To me thats not a sound investment and reason alone to lowball an offer for a player such as Harvin. If Minnesota doesnt like it guess what, they dont have to accept they can keep this guy on thier roster but it doesnt mean we have to “GO ALL IN” & mortgage the farm on a commitment thats so shaky. As I previously mentioned Im not over the moon about Harvin as he is a locker room distraction & a “Me me me” player but if we could get him in a reasonable trade scenerio then I see an upside to test the waters & explore all options, just dont feel we need to give up high draft picks(future Hawk starters that are affordable) on this guy when we can draft our on version minus all the baggage. Also the swaps in picks are only a few spots actually so no reason to be overly dramatic & spin it like theyre moving from a top 10 pick to the bottom of each round in rounds 1 & 3, its just a few spots dude so chill. Lastly you brought up “mediocre competition @ QB” Id have to argue with you on that Flynn is hardly pedestrian. Hes still somewhat of an unproven yes however with the opportunitys he has been afforded hes shown an exceptional upside, the guys ceiling is Matt Hasselbeck/Andy Dalton, his floor is probably Matt Schaub/Ryan Fitzpatrick/ Jeff Garcia not terrible company to be in. In all actuality much more-refined than Christian Ponder SO NOT REALLY “some mediocre competition at QB? When did Tim Ruskell take over the Vikings?” as you like to put it. Not only has Flynn performed well in all of his playing time, he also has been excellent at practice. Now I know it was just one game but I still would like to point outthe #’s for Flynn in that game against Detroit, playing without Jennings mind you….do the math:
31-44/480/6
QB rating – 136.4
I’ll take a flier, if Im a team that doesnt have an accomplished signal caller & I dont think its a stretch to say MINN falls in this category along with multiple teams. .
-Vick signed a new 1 yr contract with the Eagles, that signing just increased Flynn’s trade value
-Alex Smith finally performed well on a damn good team. I think more than likely he would struggle in anything less than pristine surroundings and without 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh. Also
I would suggest that Matt Flynn is the best option thats available for QB-starved teams in 2013 even given his sample size is much more impressive than any other QB out there. Bottom line, Flynn has the highest immediate upside of any quarterback potentially on the market or in the Draft.
I cannot see a deal like that getting it done.
I hope we stick to the draft. I like seeing new players develop. Maybe we find a Percy Harvin of our own with a better work ethic and sturdier body.
Plus I don’t see the need for a Harvin type player anyways. Who would man the slot?? The only hole I see filled with grabbing Harvin is replacing an aging KR/PR. All we need on offense is a TE and a RT prospect. Disregarding his locker room issues, I just don’t see the need for his type of play.
I have been coming to this site for a few years now, but I never really comment. The thing I find frustrating this year is all the talk in the comment section from people expecting to get anything for M. Flynn. Never mind posts to the tune of Flynn and a 3rd for one of the most dynamic players in the NFL. Then to continue on saying that we should sign Harvin for 5-6 mil a year is nuts. Some team is going to give up a 2nd and a 4th, or a 2nd and a 3rd and sign him to a contract comparable to Vincent Jacksons contract with the Bucs. Do I want the Seahawks to make that move, No…do I think some other team will…certainly!
In regards to M. Flynn…I don’t see a way that we get more than a 4th or a swap of spots in 2nd or 3rd for him. L. Washington would be a 7th or conditional pick if traded, except his contract would make him undesirable in a trade.
I really love coming to this site. I appreciate the work done by yourself Rob and the majority of the user comments are great, but I’m finding the unrealistic M. Flynn trade talk pretty grating. I suspect we might actually keep him for the year and cut him outright next year when no cap penalty will be applied. Cutting/trading him will only gain us 3-ish million in cap savings this year as 2 mil of his contract would be on our books with a trade/cut. Finding and training a backup for that 3ish mil might not be worth it when we are entering a year with such high expectations.
I think Flynn is generally overrated among Seahawks fans, Jeremy. I’ve wrote several pieces discussing how light his market will be. Unfortunately until we see the situation play out, fans are going to fantasise about potential trades. It’s just part of the off season. But I agree, they’ll do well to generate any interest via trade. They’ll either cut him or eat another OTT salary for a backup.
Just reviewing actual contracts and I think Harvin will get between P.Garcon, and V.Jackson for a contract. Something like a 5yr/$47.5 mil contract with $21 mil guaranteed.
Garcon last year: 5yr/$42.5 mil with $20.5 mil guaranteed
Jackson last year: 5yr/$55.5 mil with $26 mil guaranteed
Combine that price tag, with the attitude issues, the injury history and the draft capital needed to make the deal and I don’t think it would be a great decision for the ‘hawks. For all of the risk of a Harvin, I would prefer the bigger bodied D. Bowe in free agency. Plus not having to give up anything to get him. Your article earlier in the season, Rob, touched on him coming to the team. I think for the risk, that would be a much better fit for what we need right now.
I think one thing at play here is the Charlie Whitehurst deal. If Charlie Whitehurst (someone who had never taken a regular season snap) is worth a 2nd round swap and a 3rd, then Flynn must be worth at least that. Maybe Flynn wouldn’t bring back that much in a trade. Maybe the Hawks would be lucky to get even a 4th (or 5th)? But there is at least a shot that he can generate a Whitehurst type deal.
My guess would be a fourth/conditional 3rd based on playing time.
I agree Jeremy that Flynn’s value is bloated here quite a bit…
The best I see is as you mentioned, using him (and maybe a late round pick) to SWAP up in round 2 or 3 as our best value… If we could move up in R2, many many more options will be available for Pete and John to feast upon. So why not cut the 3ish million, use a couple late late round picks (we get 2 more to = 12 overall), to just get moved up in that precious round two…
(if we had to, ok, trade up in the 3rd…not as sexy!)
you have to make this move. I am sorry, we have not had this explosive of an offensive weapon in SEA since I can remember. He is a one move and gone type player. Golden is cool, but doesnt compare. With Rice, ZMiller and Harvin we would have a formidable lineup with Lynch. Id do this in a heartbeat for a late 2nd round pick and 4th. We still have plenty of picks in the draft and our FO has made these work. Make the trade if we can….and be “ALL IN”.
And what happens when he’s six weeks into the 2013 season and either injured or screaming at Pete?
Or what happens when the pass rush is still anemic? We didn’t lose to ATL becasue we couldn’t score points. We lost because we couldn’t get ANY pressure on the QB. Keep the draft picks and upgrade the DT/DE positon.
Or you could argue the defeat in Atlanta was down to a completely hideous first half where fumbles, going for it on fourth down and botching the final drive cost the team a chance to be competitive at half time. I agree the pass rush wasn’t good enough, but I also believe if it’s even 20-10 at half time the Seahawks win that game.
Definitley a combo of the two but in either case, the DT/DE position is a bigger priority than Harvin, who is a great player.
How can Flynn be over inflatted? Hes still somewhat of an unknown which means theres an upside just as much as theres the downside that some will only point out but I would say Flynn is hardly pedestrian. Hes still somewhat of an unproven, yes however with the opportunities he has been afforded hes shown an exceptional upside, the guys ceiling is Matt Hasselbeck/Andy Dalton, his floor is probably Matt Schaub/Ryan Fitzpatrick/ Jeff Garcia not terrible company to be in. Not only has Flynn performed well in all of his playing time, he also was excellent at practice. Now I know it was just one game but I still would like to point outthe #’s for Flynn in that game against Detroit, playing without Jennings mind you….do the math:
31-44/480/6
QB rating – 136.4
I’ll take a flier, if Im a team that doesnt have an accomplished signal caller & I dont think its a stretch to say MINN falls in this category along with multiple teams. Look its simple supply & demand.
-Vick signed a new 1 yr contract with the Eagles, guess what? That signing just increased Flynn’s trade value
-Alex Smith finally performed well on a damn good team. I think more than likely he would struggle in anything less than pristine surroundings and without 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh. Also
So I would suggest that Matt Flynn is the best option thats available for QB-starved teams in 2013 even given his sample size is much more impressive than any other QB out there. Bottom line, Flynn has the highest immediate upside of any quarterback potentially on the market or in the Draft. Im not suggesting Flynn fetches a 2nd RD pick straight up however its not unrealistic to trade Flynn simply by swapping picks in the 2nd with the Jags/Jets/KC/Buf/Cle for a starting quality QB. Lets not overlook this FO’s ability to pull off the “impossible” Lets not over look that it only takes ONE team to make a trade happen, it doesnt mean it has to be a general consensus around the entire league on what exactly Matt Flynns value is. If one team values his service enough especially given the circumstances surrounding a lack of quality immediate impact QBs in FA & in the draft. So I would say its not out of the realm of possibilty that Flynn is traded & fetches some decent value in return.
Trade him for a swap up in round 2 as you said is the best we could do, IMO. And we would welcome that earlier R2 pick!!
Flynn was a major topic of discussion for Seahawks fans even before he signed with us last March. The ties to him were obvious- our GM came from Green Bay and Seattle had Tarvaris Jackson at QB. So it hardly shocked anyone when Seattle ended up signing him.
Even before the signing, Seahawks bloggers were breaking down Flynn’s two GB starts in agonizing detail. After he was signed and playing in the preseason he was further scrutinized based on those performances since he was in an “open competition” for the starting job. Having scouted both of Flynn’s Green Bay starts and all 3 of his Seahawks preseason games, here are some insights I can offer:
-Flynn is an unflappable QB. Whether it is high leverage situations or a hostile road environment, it’s the same guy every snap. Though he only has 2 starts, you would never know it from his mental approach. Mental strength is one of Flynn’s biggest assets.
-Flynn has a average arm @ best, but throws a very accurate deep “rainbow” type deep ball. If you have jump ball WRs, Flynn could be a very successful QB. His problem is more with intermediate passing. I saw a breakdown that charted his throws by short, intermediate, and long, and both short and long were excellent while intermediate was terrible. Flynn is best in a Matt Ryan ATL type offense that is dink and dunk with a few deep shots mixed in and does not ask the QB to be mobile.
-Flynn is not fast, but he is mobile enough. When he came in to relieve Wilson during the AZ/BUF blowouts, he had a few plays where he sidestepped sure sacks. He’s not a good fit for a mobile QB offense, but he’s not a statue either.
-Flynn is a student of the game and is not afraid to audible when he sees something. Very similar to Hasselbeck in this regard.
-Flynn is not a fiery leader, more of a quiet, introverted, “lead by example” type.
-Flynn is a risk taker and is not scared by his own lack of arm strength. Over a full season I would expect him to post Ryan Fitzpatrick type interception numbers, though probably with more TD’s to help compensate.
Overall, I think Matt Flynn is the best QB in the NFL that isn’t starting for a team. Alex Smith is an obvious product of the system in SF, a guy that was terrible before Harbaugh arrived and who still crumples under adversity. Matt Flynn is not a mega-star, but he is too good to be a career backup.
Comparison: Ryan Fitzpatrick, late career Matt Hasselbeck, Andy Dalton-ish. All lack mobility, lack arm strength, and throw interceptions but are intelligent and capable of being quality stopgap QBs.
Matt Flynn did not fit Seattle’s criteria almost at all. Seattle likes QBs that are mobile and can throw the ball through a wall. Flynn can’t do any of that, and yet they still signed him. That spoke volumes about how much they valued him as an in the pocket.
Flynn is in my opinion the best stopgap QB available. Worth a 3rd or 4th RD pick, or even swapping picks in the 2nd if high enough.
If you give Flynn a good line and decent WR/TEs, he could be a top 15 starting QB. The Titans didn’t exactly put a ton around Hasselbeck in 2011 and he helped get them to 9-7 that year in the AFC South. And Flynn is a better QB than old Hasselbeck. I honestly believe Flynn would have been a winning QB for us in 2012 if not for Wilson. If I was a new GM with a team that didn’t have a future at QB, the first call I’d make is asking how little it would take to get Flynn. I bet it wouldn’t be much. He’s a good short term fix that buys you time to dig around and find that franchise QB while keeping your team in the playoff hunt at least until December. And if you build around him well enough, I think hes good enough to post a winning record and perhaps a playoff berth.
In terms of trading Flynn the NFL is a QB-driven league
Teams overpay for QBs.All the time, its a reaccuring timeless practice. Some examples:
-Washington paid three first round picks for RGIII. Not saying he’s not worth it – just saying that’s a shitload of draft capital
– the following QBs were drafted in the first round (not one of them, in my opinion near worth it): Ponder, Gabbert, Weeden, Tebow, Locker.
– Carson Palmer was traded, late in his career, for one first and one second round pick. That’s just insane.
– Kevin Kolb was traded (and signed a massive contract) for a second round pick and a starting CB (Cromartie-Rodgers)
– Matt Cassell was traded (and signed a massive contract) for the 34th pick of the draft.
-The Packers traded Hasselbeck, along with their 1st RD (17th overall) & 7th RD picks, to the Hawks for their 1st RD (10th overall) & 3rd RD picks
Quality backup QB’s usually go for a 3rd-4th
Whitehurst and Schaub were traded for the equivalent of a 3rd. Given the lack of QB options this year there should be a good market for Flynn. He is a more affordable choice than Alex Smith who will cost more in salary and picks. The price should start with something like this via trade with teams like JAC/KC/NYJ/BUF/CLE:
Flynn + 5th RD
For 3rd RD + 5th RD
Nothing has changed to keep a team for over-paying for rare QB talent (and starting-quality QB talent is a challenge to find). Given the lack of good options this coming year in FA, on the trading block, and in the draft, I think Flynn is worth possibly a 2nd RD pick in the right situation more likely a 3rd-4th. I know this goes against the prevailing opinion given that many think he’s worth a 5th-6th or even less, but so be it. We’ll all know here within a couple of months.
I think you’ve been very generous on a few of the points. For example, we don’t really know that he’s unflappable in any environment. He has two starts. One on the road in New England (tough opponent, but not the most hostile road trip) and one at home in a meaningless game against Detroit. Is he ‘mobile enough’? What does that actually mean? Because he’s not fast enough to extend plays. He’s very much a pocket passer and he’s pretty limited when he has to move out of the pocket. Saying things like he’s a student of the game… again… let’s see more evidence of this. And while he might compare well to Ryan Fitzpatrick, he’s also being booted out of Buffalo after another failed season.
I suspect interest will be severely limited, just like it was last year. But we’ll find out shortly.
I suppose I just happen to like Flynn more than some & I firmly believe that when hes traded hell finally have the opportunity to not only become the successful QB he is but to silent the critics. Now Ill be the 1st to admit I dont posses the gift of clairvoyance however I think hes going to make a nice addition to whoevers fortunate enough to trade for him, call it a gut feeling if you will BUT when he follows through & becoms more than what most are giving him credit for I think it’ll be fitting to watch those of you eat crow. Hindsights 20/20 😉
Nice job. Thanks for the QB history lesson, it puts things into perspective…
It feels to me that Flynn, and the curse of being WAY out west in Seattle, somehow makes him a less desirable option. Not sure why, it is more of a feeling that they don’t respect him somehow…
It also seems that the teams that would take him, need to keep their draft picks to help their teams, so the swap trade makes the most sense. We swap 2nd R (& 4th R picks if lucky) maybe…
I would like us to do this if possible, and maybe draft EJ Manuel as RW’s backup.
Either way, I’d like to see Matt Flynn have a chance to play in the NFL, before it is too late.
Time will tell (all her secrets…)