Richard Sherman, showing off his wingspan
Pete Carroll and John Schneider’s Seahawks haven’t drafted a cornerback with sub-32 inch arms. They love height and length at the position. Yet the 2015 class isn’t filled with long, tall cornerbacks. We listed some of the fits in this piece. You’re limiting yourself to basically Jalen Collins, Alex Carter, Byron Jones and Adrian Amos (a safety who might be able to play corner).
There were, however, a couple of interesting prospects with 31.5 inch arms. How important is half an inch? Are you going to strike a player off your draft board because of half an inch?
This is where wingspan comes in to play. According to Zach Whitman, an authority on SPARQ and measurables, the Seahawks have generally drafted cornerbacks with at least a 77.5 or 78-inch wingspan. So if they have 31.5 inch arms but have a long wingspan, they could still be in contention.
(Wingspan is the length between the tip of your middle finger on one outstretched arm to the other)
Clare Farnsworth did a piece on how wingspan translates to length and how it makes the Legion of Boom even taller when you include wingspan and height to create an overall reach:
“Browner checks in at 6 feet 8, fingertip of extended arm to fingertip of extended arm. Sherman is at 6-5½, Chancellor at 6-4½ and even Thomas “gains” 4½ inches to 6-2½.”
It’s not easy to find wingspan details for cornerbacks. A quick Google search revealed Jalen Collins has a 78 inch wingspan, but he already passes the 32-inch arms test. What about the two intriguing players with 31.5 inch arms?
Eric Rowe was given 32.5 inch arms at the Senior Bowl but they were measured slightly shorter at the combine (31.5 inches). Apparently these things change depending on who’s doing the test. Either way, scanning the internet revealed Rowe to have a 77.5-inch wingspan. So I guess we can include him as a contender. All of Rowe’s other characteristics were a fit (4.45 speed, 39 inch vertical, 10-5 broad jump, excellent three-cone and short shuttle). He isn’t an overly physical player but neither is Byron Maxwell. You don’t see great recovery speed on tape and he’s more of a toolsy developmental project who can be coached into a scheme.
Marcus Peters has 31.5 inch arms but plays like a Seahawks corner (physical, ball hawk, confident bordering on arrogant — in a good way). You can imagine him playing for the LOB. I couldn’t find a wingspan total for Peters, but this Tweet is intriguing if accurate. That would put him a notch below Brandon Browner in terms of overall length (if true). That would also surely put him in contention to be drafted by Seattle. Peters’ overall workout ticks all the right boxes for Seattle — 4.53 forty (faster than Sherman’s), 37.5 inch vertical, 10-1 broad jump, decent three-cone and short shuttle. I thought he handled his press conference very well at the combine — taking responsibility for his actions. He’s allowed to perform at the Washington pro-day — a significant development.
We’ve talked about the possibility of a veteran stopgap solution at corner or even just drafting ‘your guys’ in rounds 4-5 and opening up the competition. What about the possibility Seattle drafts a corner in round two or three to come in as an instant starter?
They could trade down from #31 to the #40 range, accumulate another pick or two in the process (just like last year) and take a cornerback in the first half of round two. They would have plenty of picks to attack the loaded depth at receiver in rounds 3-4. They could potentially use the #63 pick on a starter at guard to replace James Carpenter (eg Ty Sambrailo).
Jalen Collins and Byron Jones will likely be off the board — but Rowe and Peters could be available. In Rowe’s case he could stick into rounds 3-4, but we know the Seahawks are willing to go a round early to get their guys. Peters could still go in the first given the high demand for talented cornerbacks, but the early second round is a reasonable projection.
Taking either on day two wouldn’t prevent you returning to the position later in the draft to take a prospect like Alex Carter.
I still believe the Seahawks are likely to pursue one of the two dynamic tight ends in free agency (Julius Thomas and Jordan Cameron). I think there’s a chance they’ll find a way to add some depth to the defensive line. This will leave them needing, as a priority — WR, CB, G. They could spend multiple picks filling these holes.
I could be wrong on that projection, but this is a good draft for receivers and there are plenty of athletic offensive linemen you can pick and develop. it’s not a deep class at corner. And if they don’t (somehow) find a starter to replace Byron Maxwell in free agency, they might be inclined to go early on the position in the draft (day two).
One final point — and I think it’s an important one. We can talk about height, length, speed or whatever. I don’t believe the Seahawks are a slave to ideals. Starting a 5-10 quarterback isn’t an ideal and yet the Seahawks have done it because Wilson is a difference maker for many other reasons. The offensive line is full of different shapes and sizes — from the massive (James Carpenter), to the long (Russell Okung), to the athletic (J.R. Sweezy) to the big-with-short-arms (Justin Britt). The receivers are generally smaller across the board but all play with ‘grit’.
Of all the positions, cornerback probably provides the strictest set of ideals. They know what they like and what they can develop. Pete Carroll is a secondary coach at heart. But that doesn’t mean they won’t bend the rules for a corner who isn’t over six foot and only has 31.5 inch arms — IF they are a good fit for other reasons.
Trading down from rd1 affords them the luxury of drafting a starting-calibre DB in rd2 or possibly rd3, because of the extra picks.
Without trading down, I don’t see it. Too many success stories from late rounds in the secondary, coupled with key needs at WR and at OL.
Cameron and Thomas are attractive options at receiver, but their poor blocking, especially thoma’s, leads me to think that 7-8m a year for a pass catching tight end will not bait the seahawks. With Marshawn already a foot out the door, you’d have to think about improving line play via strengthening blocking on the ground and air for which ever inherently inferior back will take over for him. I can’t see thomas or cameron necessarily contributing to a run first team in the way the hawks expect their TEs to.
Everyone brings up the lack of blocking ability–I think it’s a bit overblown. If we’ve learned anything from Carroll it’s that he finds ways to maximize the skills of his players. He looks at what they can do and not what they can’t.
So Thomas isn’t a great blocker…ok, but what can he do? Line him up wide and have a cb guard him? Yes, please. Especially in the red zone. Put him in the slot or a more traditional TE spot and the defense has s choice: LB or nickel corner. I like his chances in either matchup.
What most people fail to recognize is that all this attention on the Thomas makes it easier for everyone else to operate, while at the same time creating mismatches.
Also, I think it’s quite likely that we gradually tilt in favor of being a passing team over the next few years, further minimizing the importance of a traditional tight end.
Rob, do you think we might draft someone without the arm measurements later to specifically play in the slot?
I have wondered this same thing. I remember understanding why Josh Wilson was traded, but thinking how he’d be such a good fit in the slot with all the big CBs. It also would have helped to have had a guy like that cover an Edelman in the Super Bowl.
Yeah, i was actually oblivious about the 32 inch arm thing before Rob mentioned it, but during the superbowl i was kinda thinking we needed another nickel, just in case Lane goes down again. It sucked seeing that macklemore wannabe Toolian Edelman have such an impact on that game.
Possibly. I hope Oregon State’s Steven Nelson is a candidate for that type of role.
Believe they def draft a nickel/slot CB with all the injuries to the secondary. Nelson would be great
CB Steven Nelson is very ‘Seahawky’ for sure.
I actually think that the 32in arm thing is not the specific requirement, but rather overall wing span is. It just so happens that 32in arm are probably a good recipe for 78in+ wingspans. We all know how “robotic” our CBs are coached. We’ve often heard that in practice, it’s hard to tell them apart because they all move, break and read the same.
So if we assume that a player can be coached to be in the right spot, at that point it’s about being able to reduce the throwing window as much as possible. that’s where the wingspan comes into play. The more area the player can defend, the smaller the window.
I think Rob is correct to look at players with larger than normal wingspans rather than focusing entirely on arm length. I wish they’d publish standing vertical reach, wingspan and arm length for the combine.
Seems to me that vertical and horizontal jumping ability should factor into a DBs “coverage radius”. I think a guy who has outstanding hops can compensate for having arms, or a wingspan, that are maybe an inch too short.
I don’t think corner is as big of as need to warrant a day 1/2 pick.
I think we are overreacting to the super bowl. They have two guys (Burley & Simon) who are going to their sophomore year & have a great chance at making the leap. Sure, the depth is bad with Maxy leaving & lane injured. However, they have players like Pinkins, Shead, etc who could step in based on past experience. They could look into late free agency to find depth guys.
It’s easy to react to the super bowl but that’s an exception. Burley was in active & Simon was himself injured & covering Edelman in the slot. That sounds like disaster especially with no pash rush.
I agree on the overreaction. I agree we need depth at this position but I don’t think they will spend a 1st or 2nd day pick on a CB unless it’s a very special talent. I think the RCB job is Simon’s to loose.
Part of the concern at CB is the news that Simon may have to undergo surgery on his shoulder. CB is a concern until we know more about the extent of the injury and his recovery. For instance, if Simon is not going to be available at the start of the season, then I think CB becomes a priority need. But, if Simon does not need surgery and will be available for the start of the season, then we probably still add a CB or two in the draft but we can pick in any round without the pressure for a Day 1 starter.
Spot on. Depth throughout the secondary is the critical issue. Simon is workable, perhaps, but we know he’s been dinged (or more) throughout his career. Behind him, on the outside, is nothing. We need to add depth. What worries me is that the history of development suggests a learning curve and we don’t have anyone started on that curve. It’s well to point to the history of development of late round picks, but isn’t a promising option here.
I’ll take 32in arm length any day IF they are a ball hawk and have a good vertical. If their requirement is for larger wing spans then ball hawk and vertical would have to be a requirement as well.
Rob, what do you think of Andre Johnson’s fit for the Hawks? Personally I think he would be a perfect veteran presence for our WR’s and think he still is a number 1 receiver. Your thoughts?
I would agree Curt, he’s everything you could ask for. He is a very quiet guy off the field but is very ferocious on it. The leadership is key as we’ll. When Doug Baldwin is your leader in the WR room that’s an issue.
He doesn’t have the ability to get deep like he once did, but he’s still got some gas in the tank to be productive for another year. Lord knows we could use it. He could be the one year rental until Waller develops. I’d be okay with that.
Andre Johnson would also open the door for a Smelter, Waller’s teammate at GT. He could take a year to heal up or maybe even just start on PUP if he will be ready for the second half of the season. Johnson could bring a lot of experience to the young bucks and be a dependable target for Wilson.
In a year like this where the WR draft class may run 7 rounds deep, it is foolish to spend on an expensive veteran than is running out of gas. RW needs a younger target that he can grow with.
Difference is Andre Johnson wont need a few years of learning how to play in the NFL to start contributing. Unless we find ourselves with Amari Cooper or Kevin White still on the board at #31, that is.
It’s the results that count. If we bring in a J. Thomas, Cameron or AJ it adds an element to our attack that we simply do not currently have. A big redzone target. If we go on to win the next Super Bowl then the move was worth it. Receiving options are good to have & you can bet we would still draft to the position.
Likewise, having options for our cornerbacks to cover the various shapes and sizes of opposing WRs also makes sense. Not every CB on the team needs to be a carbon copy. A quick, shifty corner can match up with a quick, shifty WR as has been noted. Options in the toolbox!
And of course all cornerbacks look better when the QB is getting blown up and harassed.
I feel the best direction would be to get Andre Johnson on a 3 year deal. Medium money.
Then draft 2 WR’s in this draft. One of each of these groups would be ideal:
A) Agholar, McBride, Conley, Waller
B) Dorsett, Lockette, Goodley
We would have “talent and depth” at WR for years, and have Andre Johnson to mentor them!!!
This is a perfect storm…he helps our WR room grow, and he gets a ring!!!
Imagine RW throwing to Andre, like seriously, he maybe 34, but he will make an impact! Especially mixed in with new FAST talent…
Today this became my best feeling. Sign him to evolve our offense and WR group into another level!
I like both McBride and Waller. I feel we could get McBride in the late 2nd early 3rd round range and Waller with the late 4th or a 5th round pick.
I think the inability of Norwood to get on the field and Richardson’s struggles at the beginning of the seasons shows that the learning curve is far to wide to expect production in year 1 and maybe even year 2. Unless that player is so physically dominate that his talent carries him in the first few seasons. The issue with AJ is his salary but I would sure hope if he gets released the Sehawks come calling because even with no QB, no roster and zero motivation AJ still had 80+ catches last year.
2 words on that school of thought: Deandre Hopkins
3 more words on that school of thought: Odell Beckham, Jr.
Never said there wouldn’t be outliers. Not very many Odell Beckhams in the world and especially not in the 2015 draft. You hear JS talk about the learning curve constantly (did it in his combine interview) when it comes to rookie WR’s. Its not just a theory I have.
I think this might also be undervaluing the knowledge he brings with him. I recall an interview where Sherman was asked about the best technical receiver he’d had to cover and he called our Johnson specifically. We have at least one raw WR prospect with size and hopefully another once the draft clears through, and a room full of guys with an edge to grind and a reputation as hard workers and gym rats.
It’s not impossible he could make a big difference for some of those young guys, even though they’ll never has the physical gifts he had in his prime. Unless they draft Conley/Waller, in which case they’ll have a raw young guy who DOES have similar physical gifts and could certainly stand to learn from a HoF caliber player.
We need a solid option in mid range badly. Recently I rewatched some tapes when Sidney Rice was still there. Big WRs can do sth that others can never do.Besides, what if we can persuade Andre Johnson to accept the role that Farwell is playing last year? A WR coach/teacher like him…hmm.
Is he still a difference maker? I’m not so sure. He’s 34 this year.
You can make a difference in a number of different ways. I love Angry Doug Baldwin as a player but I think his play is better suited for the slot and I am becoming a little concerned that he is now the veteran leader of our receivers. The type of leadership that AJ would provide could make a difference and cannot be provided by anyone else on the roster. He could make the same kind of leadership difference that Anquan Boldin made when he signed with San Francisco.
Can he be productive enough as a receiver to improve the quality of our top 3? Yes, I think so. AJ, Baldwin in the slot, and a competition between Kearse, Matthews, Norwood and any rookies for the #3 spot would appear to be an improvement over last year.
Does he need to be a difference maker to be worth pursuing?
He’s still a quality Split End. A position currently manned by Kearse and Matthews. Kearse is ill suited physically for the role, but is versatile enough to do it. Albeit at a lesser capacity.
With Kearse as a RFA, he’ll cost 2.7m to retain this year. What’s the delta between that and what it may cost to have a player of Johnson’s ability.
It’s difficult to really attribute the decline in production all on Johnson. QB play has been a significant issue in Houston the last couple of years. Obviously, Johnson isn’t a long term answer. But the WRs on this roster aren’t of sufficient quality to really limit us just on long term investments either.
Adding Johnson doesn’t halt the search for a difference maker. Of all of the UFA/trade options for split ends (Johnson, Jackson, Marshall), Johnson is by far my preferred option here. The contract situation for all three is likely to be similar. Although Johnson may be a slightly cheaper option as he is a couple years older.
The draft is loaded at receiver. I’d rather spend money on one of the two TE’s and hit WR in the draft. I saw three Houston games last year and for me Johnson looked close to a spent force.
I agree rather have one of the TE but Johnson did have 80 catches in an offense that threw only 30x more then hawks
Kearse can still improve his game, whereas Andre Johnson is steadily declining. Why pay for what a guy HAS done?
I disagree. Why pay Kearse, who dropped a 3rd down pass in the SB that could have helped us seal the deal, when we can pay a legend of a WR! Please add in the equation of his mentorship to our young WR corp. I would still draft 2 WR’s, flood the WR room with talent, and let him lead them over the next 2 years. If Houston only threw 30 times more than us last year, and he had over 80 receptions, do you really not see how powerful and affective that could be for us?!!??
Biggest pluses to having Andre Johnson is his mentorship, and the easing of coverage on our young WR corp. The other teams #1 CB will mostly have to follow AJ! Please think about that…
Whereas Julius Thomas costs more, comes in as a catching TE with ego issues and no blocking skills, or we sign Jordan Cameron with a huge risk of losing him to concussions… or we spend that money on a WR that would still command respect from every team in the NFL, and let him show our newbie WR’s the path forward…
Then draft one of A) McBride, Conley, Waller… and B) Lockette, Dorsett, Goodley…
And watch the passing game flourish for years to come!!! RW deserves it!
I wouldn’t be bummed out or upset if Seattle signed Andre Johnson, I just think they could find a WR in the draft that’s cheaper. Hasn’t Andre Johnson also had injury issues as well?
I get why people aren’t high or big fans of Kearse, but you need receivers like him that will do the dirty work and not complain about getting a few targets a game.
Definitely understand why Andre Johnson is an attractive option, but he just doesn’t strike me as a ‘gritty’ player. I think his whole mentorship thing is being overstated a bit. Do these Seattle receivers really need an ‘outsider’ coming in and telling them how to go about things? They know what they need to do/work on.
I wonder about shead and how they view him. He came along the maxwell route and stayed on the practice squad getting full salary for a reason. Seems like he got an opportunity to sign with a team but stayed with the hawks on ps for the same money. They could value him more then a high pick. I think he’s a wild card in this debate and may play a role in picking a cb high
He went along the Kearse route, not Maxwell. I think he can play CB at a moments notice, but his true position is safety. We are going to lose Jeron Johnson in FA so he’ll be moving up to being the 3rd safety. Hopefully Pinkins will make the roster this year and be Kams backup
Shead will play free safety all off-season and pre-season while ET recovers. It will be a great growth opportunity for him.
Pinkins or Dion Bailey is next man up for Jeron Johnson. They may take another run at converting Pinkins to CB.
I hope they do keep trying to convert Pinkins to CB, he could be a special CB one day or an average safety… hopefully they aim high. Bailey looked good last pre-season, hopefully he can make the roster and be the backup SS.
Ahead to me is one of the key ST members of this team, Need a handful of those type of guys.
Should say Shead not Ahead.
I feel pretty good about the Hawks trading back to select Jake Fisher (early RD 2). Then at #63 taking Eric Rowe followed by Tre McBride at #95. Then on day 3 target Waller, Davison, Amos, Cam Thomas, Gibson, etc.
Fisher gives them flexibility to play guard or tackle and even possibility to move on from Okung in a year.
Rowe is versitile and upgrade over Simon.
McBride is fast, try hard kid with return ability and most important (experience). Go Hawks
That looks good and all, but i disagree with Fisher replacing Okung. I dont think you bolster the oline just to take 2 steps back the following year. I dont think Fisher will be better then Okung 12 months from now
I like Fisher, but not as a future LT. I’d look to develop him inside as an athletic guard.
I could see this as well. Fisher certainly is better as a backup LT than Bailey. But I’d see Fisher as a swing tackle/OG option. With added value as a decent injury replacement for Okung.
I just don’t think we necessarily appreciate Okung’s value at LT. He’s not the best. But he’s not paid like the best either. He’s certainly worth the value of his 7m per year. His availability concerns are real. Fisher would be a good option to hedge on that.
His versatility/quality would still be applicable even if Seattle continues to bring in development prospects for LT in the future.
Fisher to me really strikes me as this years’ Joel Bitonio. Athletic. Good play to the whistle style of demeanor. Oregon clearly played at a higher level when he was in there, as opposed to when he was sidelined. The agility scores put up by Fisher are tops for OL since 2011. On tape, he’s a very fluid lineman with nimble feet. He’s a really good fit for our ZBS.
I’d see him as a very significant upgrade to Britt. A player who improved greatly and outperformed my low expectations. But Fisher should have none of Britt’s issues dealing with speed rushers. That’s still a liability to Britt’s game that I’m not sure is ever going to be really a strength. At best he might be adequate.
Fisher would be a player I’d see pushing Britt inside, more than just sliding inside himself. But with the added ability to adequately man the LT position if needed. That backup LT position is still very much unsettled.
And there is always the possibility that Fisher is in fact that good at LT. We won’t really have a notion until he’s in an NFL training camp. He has LT potential — easily so when looking at his athleticism. His length isn’t optimal. But there are plenty of very good NFL LTs who aren’t length optimal.
Picking where we will be for the next several years, we’re either looking at suboptimal length/quality tackles, or late round optimal/project day 3 types. Given that, I’m bullish on Fisher. I would certainly put him in the pocket of talent in the 31 to 40 range that we would consider taking him. Depending on alternatives (prospects or trades).
If we see a situation similar to 2011, where we can’t get a trade and our preferred guys are gone — I feel much better about Fisher than I did about Carpenter.
I don’t get all the talk of moving Britt inside to LG. So you spend another high draft pick on the RT spot, move Britt inside, and then what if Britt and said rookie both fail at their respective positions?
You move Britt back to RT, where he got no reps during the off-season to improve, move your rookie to LG where he also had no reps? Or ‘Pig’ Bailey then becomes a starter leaving no depth, other than some late round projects? Again, that cutting your margins very slim.
It’s merely an option.
What Seattle doesn’t have is a very good plan B for Okung’s availability. It’s not a stretch to think he’ll miss some games this year.
If Bailey is playing LG, then if he’s also tapped to remain emergency LT, there is a potential hole. Britt is a quality run blocker, similar to Sweezy. But the liability against speed is pronounced with Britt on the outside.
Of course he could remain there. And continue to develop. If that happens awesome. Seattle is thin on the OL, with only 7 players legitimately on the roster. That includes Gilliam who is completely unknown. Britt is a player who looks like he’d be capable of providing quality versatility both at OG/OT.
OT seems to be a position where depth is needed. If you have two (really 3 including Bailey) options to swing G/T — that helps depth tremendously. Fisher played OT in college, so from an experience standpoint it would seem easiest to ease him into the NFL at OT. Britt is now a 2nd year pro. His ability to add G play to his repertoire would be easier.
If Fisher gets drafted and slotted into OG immediately — that would kind of indicate he’s not a possibility for us. Hard to justify taking someone early for that purpose. Fisher’s athleticism is kind of ridiculous. He’d be an outlier in terms of positional athleticism that would eclipse pretty much any prospect at any position at that choice outside of maybe Gurley.
It’s also possible that Clemmings drops to 31 as well. It’s impossible to really forecast the end of this draft, because we don’t know how runs on talent will fall. We could see teams reaching for DBs in a short draft. Or WRs as well. It also depends on what teams covet in their OTs. La’el Collins has been earmarked for the mid 1st forever. But if Flowers/Humphries become surprise mid first picks … Collins could be sitting there waiting. There are probably 7 potential first round OTs. Not all of them will make it. And if Collins is seen as a guard then he’s probably being passed over by teams looking specifically for OTs.
Every draft seems to find 3-5 of the guys mocked in the 15 to 25 range slipping to the end of the first/beginning of the second. With so many legit OT prospects rated highly, and having 3 OT to OG possible converts (Scherff, Collins, Fisher) — that latter group could easily slide given the right conditions.
I’d expect Seattle to add both OG and OT in this draft. There aren’t 9 OL under contract right now. We don’t know how Garrett Scott fits into the mix. I can only assume he doesn’t. If he does, bonus. There seems to be some significant quality OGs in the 4th/5th round range.
Seattle has generally thrown their hands up the last two drafts on early OT prospects — stating their guys were just snapped up before they could get them. Even last year, feeling like they were forced to take Britt because they couldn’t miss out yet again. This year it looks like a pretty good bet that several good prospects could slide. Should they pass early, we could be waiting for years before getting the opportunity to add significant talent there early.
I’m really excited by the pure-OG prospects in the draft. With so many of the original OT’s being seemingly reclassified as OG’s, I can see many of the 11 or so draftable pure-OG’s dropping to day 3. It seems to be a position which has become devalued when recruiting from college but has great importance in the pros – for me it’s an ideal position to draft because of this.
Keeping my fingers crossed that we can use one of our round 5 comp picks and maybe our round 6 comp pick on John Miller, Josue Matias, Mitch Morse, Jamil Douglas, or Miles Dieffenbach.
P.s. Thanks for your comments Attyla – I very much enjoy reading them and always feel like I learn something or come away with a different point of view.
Oh, I wasn’t trying to say Seattle won’t take a couple O-lineman, because they do need another back-up OT and a replacement for James Carpenter. I agree that the OL position is deep and has tremendous value, and Jake Fisher is an amazing athlete, but a LT, not convinced.
Your right, there should be quite a few options if they stay at 31, trade back, and even at thru end of round 2.
If you look at the guards this team has had over the last couple of seasons, only two were drafted higher than the sixth and one of those was a free agent journeyman. Carpenter, the other guy, was drafted to play tackle, and only moved to guard when he failed to. Tom Cable has said in the past that he feels he could teach anyone to play guard in the NFL and I think that statement, whilst hyperbolic, is not totally inaccurate. Of our two starting guards, it’s not the first round pick who people have talked about extending, it’s the seventh round defensive tackle convert. I wouldn’t expect them to take a guard prospect before the late third unless the perfect player slips to the perfect spot, like a Cameron Erving at the top of the second.
The priority has to be the passing game. Some buzz generating about Julius Thomas and Seattle. Not much more than speculation about fits and needs right now but it’s interesting that lots of people are noticing the potential.
They have devoted more draft resources on the guard position, but they have not panned out. Insert John Moffit reference here…. not the heart to play the game, now messed up his life. Another guard was also drafted last year, who had an unknown heart condition, which caused him to go immediately onto the IR.
They have shown that they are willing to draft guards, when they feel there is good value at each round.
I knew I was forgetting someone, though in fairness Moffitt hasn’t played for for Seattle in over two seasons.
Garrett Scott was drafted in the sixth round and he’s listed as a tackle anyway.
Does anyone have an update on Garret Scott? The last I heard is he was undergoing tests to diagnose his condition and create a treatment plan. He is still on the roster….
Another guy that piques my interest is Gary Gilliam, who, like Scott, is another SPARQ freak. GG’s ceiling is through the roof! He just needs to gain some good weight and functional strength. I am sure he is working hard this off-season! Perhaps he comes to camp 20 pounds heavier and ready to challenge for RT. Britt could take his great size, strength and short arms over to LG! Sweezy put on 20 pounds of good weight and added a lot of strength during his off-season program last year….
I think Sweezy’s been listed at 298lbs since his rookie year.
True about the G position, but if it represents the best value or is the position where the ‘pocket of talent’ lies like JS always says, then why not spend a pick on it with their first overall selection or at the end of round 2?
It was widely documented that Sweezy gained 20 pounds of good weight and a lot of strength by working hard during last year’s off-season program. Listed weights are rarely if ever updated. http://www.statesville.com/sports/super-sized-sweezy-stays-true-to-his-school/article_23561b7a-c4fb-11e3-8450-001a4bcf6878.html
Dies anyone have a meaningful contribution to this post???
What post, yours?
No updates on Scott.
Gilliam, we have no real clue what Seattle thinks of him. I only see him as being inactive week 3 against Denver. He played 82 offensive snaps (7.8%). So he isn’t a camp body. But he was the only player who got any playing time on offense to have so few. Schilling is second lowest with 197 snaps. And he was injured quickly.
It’s impossible to have any kind of opinion of Gilliam at this stage. Probably not until we see how he competes with next years draftees.
Rob, we have two longs months until the draft, so for our sanity if nothing else, we don’t want to reach a conclusion about the Seahawks R1 pick this early, but honestly if Marcus Peters, PJ Williams or Quinton Rollins is there at #31, in my view the Seattle pick is a done deal. Kevin Johnson and Jalen Collins might even be included in that group as well.
Frankly, Byron Maxwell is little more than an adequate CB, but he had the intestinal fortitude to withstand the onslaught since no QB is going to challenge Sherm, and Maxy also managed to prevent the deep strikes relatively well, so that he could at least keep the game somewhat under control.
But by no means was he a CB who is going to come out of a game with top grades. For certain, with the Seahawks very good against the run, and the rest of the LoB virtually unbeatable, Byron was the weak link that gave decent teams a chance to win against the Seahawks. If Seattle had even a B+ grade CB opposite Sherm, it would be virtually impossible for an opposing offense to put enough points on the board to have a chance of a win. For this reason, the Seahawks are virtually certain to pick a CB in R1. The only way this won’t happen is if every one of the top CB’s noted above are off the board.
Certainly, if Marcus Peters is there he will be the pick. His only flaw seems to be a bad temper, and since when is that an issue for the LoB? One of Peters, Williams, Collins or Williams seem likely to be there at #31, so we can now turn our attention to R2, if truth be told.
There are an amazing number of talented Right OT/OG hybrids, guys about 6-5 and 330, and a bunch of them will be there at pick #63. Expect a WR in R3. I think you are right that the Seahawks will go for a 2nd CB relatively early, like R4, since the Seattle need at the position is so great. Then add another OL and a Leo, otherwise expect John to build depth across the team in the mid and later rounds. I agree that TE and DT will be the main FA pickups.
A return to health by Jordan Hill, Cassius Marsh, KPL, Jeremy Lane, Paul Richardson and Jesse Williams; and a return to form by John with a draft akin to his first three, and the Seahawks will be on top again.
* Peters, Williams, Collins or Rollins.
I think to go first round it’ll take a really special player. I’m not sure Peters, Williams and Rollins are special. But if they can move down a few spots and add some picks, I think Peters (and one or two others) could be very interesting.
Marcus Peter’s only flaw isn’t that he has a bad temper. I think the player looks great but his real one flaw is that he gambles to make splash plays which is something you rarely see from the LOB. At best you’ll see Sherman almost trick a QB with soft coverage or a false change in his route to free open the WR for a pick (see Kaepernick and any one-two read QB the Hawks ever play.)
But it seems to me about once a tape I’ve watched or more of Peters he’s playing WAYYY off coverage to jump a route for the splash play. If he’d cut that crap out he’d be my favorite CB , then Jalen Collins, then Rowe.
Swagger for some is a necessary trait but in the NFL you’re only going to play so many crappy QB’s unlike College where frankly in even the Pac 12 most or not that good that you can play off coverage that hard to make the highlight interception without getting burnt all day by that.
ET did that plenty as a young player as well… he has turned out ok
Et has/had rare speed and plays well….a safety valve. Sherman is devastating because he gets into the Wr route with them. There’s a pretty significant difference between a safety playing off and The way our cb’s play their zones. I like Peters its a legitimate concern how often he jumps a route.
Does anyone else think gorden will now go to the Eagles in the draft. Seems like a great fit in Kelly’s system
Gordon has a little bit of Shady McCoy’s tendency to move laterally a lot, something Chip Kelly allegedly wasn’t a fan of.
Bring in CJ Spiller, for 1/2 the price (or more)… similar abilities in the passing game, use Polk in the rushing game.
That’s a good option of course it has it risk but the fits there
I think they’ll trade up for Mariota.
I agree. IDK if it was the hat or what, but I think Melvin Gordon may end up on Detroit, Maybe they’ve told him they’ll select him if he’s on the board? That’s what their offense is missing to take it to an elite level.
I think Ameer Abdullah is going to be an Eagle. He fits the Kenjon Barner/LaMichael James type RB he had in college
The Eagles could easily sign CJ Spiller and Byron Maxwell as FA’s…
Then I think the Jets would be ignorant not to accept a trade from 6 to 20 with Philly.
The Jets get #20, Nick Foles, a 2016 #1, and 2 #2’s(2015-2016).
These picks will set up new HeadCoach Todd Bowles with a glory of Talent…
And the biggest thing is——- the Jets will have a PROVEN QB winner in Nick Foles!
I don’t see why in this QB league that peeps don’t see how great a trade this would be for the Jets. They could finally have a winning QB, and with a quality WR draft, talent to surround him for years to come. The new HC will have a crushing defense with some CB additions, and BOOM! Winner!
Why should the Jets select a ‘possible winner’ in Mariota, when they can trade for a winner in Foles, and add other powerful players!!! Give Philly Mariota!!! Get Foles!!
I doubt the Jets would get that many picks with a player. I’d think it’d be next year’s 1st with this years 1st and 2nd with Foles.
If Foles was such a good QB, the Eagles would be building around him. He has been overrated since day one. I never liked him in college. His entire career at UA was bubble screen, dink and dunk, then burn someone deep when teams cheat up. He was a system guy. He still is.
You may be right Drew about the compensation.
At drewjov11 – Nick Foles had a great first year, then got hurt year two. He isn’t an expert QB, but way way WAY better than anything the Jets have had for years. This FA QB class is a joke, and the draft only has 2 starting potential QB’s, so if I was the Jets I’d love this trade to have a serviceable QB. Then they have extra picks to get some real actual wide receivers around him, and BOOM! A much more ‘balanced’ team! You know new HC Bowles will have that defense roaring with all that talent it has…he’ll add CB’s, which is their weakness…
Jets also need a an edge rushers to build around. All the great 3-4 defenses have that elite stand up pass rusher. They’d be idiots not to make that trade. Just because their currently selecting at the 6th spot, doesn’t guarantee they’ll find an immediate impact player.
Although, it may just be me, but I think DE-LEO/OLB Shane Ray will be an absolute beast in this league for 10+ years. Love this kid. And maybe that’s who Todd Bowles has his eye on?
Loosening the 32 inch arm standard opens up possibilities. In addition to the usual suspects (Jalen Collins, Byron Jones, Alex Carter), I think Marcus Peters, PJ Williams, Kevin Johnson, Q Rollins, etc have good qualities, and even tiny Senquez Golson. PJ and Golson have a lot of swagger. There is also Damian Swann, a Rob favorite, in the later rounds, and sleepers like Darryl “Swag” Roberts, Tye Smith really late.
Overall, however, this is not a good CB draft after Trae Waynes. That is, if we are looking for starters. Projects, there are plenty.
I am starting to think of all of the corners, Marcus Peters might offer the best combination for the Hawks. Of the more realistic options, he may stand the best chance of starting, or starting sooner.
At the same time, I am becoming less enamored of Jalen Collins. His negatives are detailed here:
http://emeraldcityswagger.com/2015/02/27/jalen-collins-seahawks-draft-profile/
Carter also needs a lot of work.
Given these problems, a stopgap veteran might be the best immediate answer, along with more internal types. (Whatever happened with AJ Jefferson?)
Jefferson was put on IR during the preseason last year and then was released with an injury settlement. Hopefully they’ll bring him back, he looked good before he got hurt.
I’m of the same mind Steele. I posted a highlight video and a couple of articles on Marshall CB Darryl ‘Swag’ Roberts about a week or two ago. I love him as a sleeper pick for some depth at the nickel/slot back role in the 6th or 7th round.
IMO Marcus Peters would be the best fit for Seattle. And really the only guy I could see them taking early. I think Simon will be fine with a year of working with the starters for a full off-season.
But, I just don’t think Seattle will deviate from their strategy of not taking corners before the 4th round. Could they change things up? Absolutely, but like Rob said, it’d take a truly special cornerback. I still am very high on Auburn’s Nick Marshall. Has the required length. team 1st player, competitive, highly athletic, and ‘foaming at the mouth’ to prove he can be a successful CB.
And I say this about Marshall, because if it takes a receiver a year or possibly 2 to become a featured part of the offense, why would it be any different for a CB? From what I remember, we haven’t seen Seattle start a rookie corner back.
Enter Richard Sherman midway through his rookie year, he started due to injuries and the rest is history.
Marshall’s lack of experience at corner is a problem. Especially if we are looking for someone who can start soon. At times, Marshall looked completely lost. There could be a lot of potential there, but I am not sure that this is the window for conversion projects, which take take time. That is a luxury I’m not sure they have. That is, if they want to win a SB in the next couple of years.
I never said that Marshall should start. I’d take him for depth and Seattle does have the luxury of selecting whoever they want. Their one of only a handful of legit contenders this year.
As for conversion projects, when has Seattle never not drafted a conversion project? Whatever the position may be.
I don’t think that you can keep Marshall on the active roster. I could see him on the practice squad but I could also see another team keeping him as a pseudo 3rd QB and develop him as a CB.
The way the injuries hit out secondary they can’t afford to keep a guy who is not able to contribute when called upon
I like his upside, but I don’t think you can sacrifice the roster spot
How do we know he wouldn’t be able to contribute? Any CB that Seattle drafts is going to take their lumps.
How many times have we seen Seattle promote guys from the PS to the active roster? They wouldn’t be sacrificing a spot anymore for Nick Marshall then they would a Steven Terrell.
We don’t know they can’t contribute, but the question is whether now is the time for such development projects. Maybe you, and the FO, believes that that is ongoing work, regardless of a season’s end W-L record. I think this offseason is unusual in that they have more injuries than normal, thus the need for more starters and immediate results than normal.
That’s my point. Had injuries not happened during Sherman’s rookie year or to Jeremy Lane this year, then the answer is still no, right?
Hawks may yet resign B-max and release older vets in order to fund a another decent free agent acquisition.
Did anyone see the article on CBS about Suh referring to state taxes impacting free agent decisions? Looks like WA has one of the lowest rates of tax while CA is the highest at 13%!!
Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Seattle did keep Maxi, however unlikely it may be.
The only way he comes back is if he gets a surprisingly cold market and takes much less than the touted $10m APY. I like Maxwell but he isn’t worth that much to be the fourth member of the LOB. He’s going to get overpaid by someone, probably Philly, and Seattle’s going to let it happen.
Does it make that much more of a difference if he gets paid 10-20% higher in Oakland than he would in Seattle? Then the tax point is moot, plus the taxes are paid to the state where games are played in. So he would only get a benefit for half of his games.
10-20%?
Try 40-50%. My assumption is that seattle would offer Maxwell in the neighborhood of 6mil a year. Maybe a little more/less.
If the rumors are correct, and team(s) are willing to go up to 10mil a year, then goodbye Maxi. Like Rob said, if a team is willing to overpay that much, he’s gone. Simple as that. This is another Golden Tate type scenario. The value difference between seattle and another team is going to be huge.
I’m possibly the only one who feels this way, but I actually think Maxwell is worth every bit of a $10M APY contract. Of course that comes with some hancuffs, but I think Maxwell is that good. Is he worth that to Seattle? Maybe not since 3/4 of the LOB starters are All-Pros, but to the NFL at-large, he’s a very good CB. He’s one of the top-10 CBs in the NFL right now and he’s only 26. He’s earned it, he deserves it, and I wish the Hawks could get creative and keep him in town for more in the $8M APY range by guaranteeing most of it. I really wish he would have been extended last year.
Worth is dictated by what someone will pay, so in that case Maxwell is worth 10m. Just not to seattle. Actually, he very well may be worth it to seattle, the Hawks just can’t afford to pay him.
I hate to lose him, but I also wonder if seattle will adjust its coverage schemes to the reality of not having an all pro calibre guy there anymore. Improve in other areas like the pass rush and adjust the coverage a bit to help out Simon.
I am not against keeping Maxwell at all, and $8 million is not unreasonable. The stability he would provide for an otherwise hobbled LOB is valuable, given the difficulty finding a replacement, much less an upgrade.
Did not know that taxes are paid to the state where games are played. Are you sure about this? If so, maybe I should get a refund for all those business trips I took to tax-free states.
yes, nfl players pay taxes based on the state they play in. (this is the case for all the major sports) There’s this thing called the jock tax. The way it works is that an athlete takes his salary and divides it equally amongst all the games he plays. Any of those games in a state that has state income tax the state will collect tax based on the number of games played in that state. So, if a seahawk player earns 3.2M a year, that is 200k a game. The seahawks played two games in CA this year so that’s 400k earned in CA. Looks like that puts them in a tax bracket of 11.3%. I have no idea how playoof and preseason effects all that.
So, our imaginary seahawk would cut the state of CA a check for $45,200. Factor in all the other games/states and that tax bill can get ridiculous.
Ouch!
Keep in mind this is a tax rule that is specific to professional athletes. Pretty jacked if you ask me.
Texas – the Cowboys and Houston, Tennessee – Titans, Florida – Jacksonville and Miami and Tampa, Washington – Seattle Seahawks… these are the only NFL teams with no state taxes…7!
IMO, the NFC East will be the most shaken up (changed) division this year. PHI has made the McCoy move and a possible trade for Mariotta doesn’t seem so far fetched, DAL will still have to figure out what to do if anything with Murray and the NYG could make a play for Suh.
If SEA takes a CB in the 3-5 tea, I think LaDarius Hunter (The U) is in play. He measures in at 6’1″ and change, 202lbs andand”+ arm length. He ran a 4.63, but is quicker than fast. He plays very pphysically press and is further ahead of where Maxwell was when he came to SEA.
The NFC North will give the East a run for its money in terms of change. The Lion’s lose Bush, Suh, Mosley/Fairley, Chicago is going through a complete regime change, could trade Cutler and Marshall, and I get the think that the Packers feel compelled by their loss in the Championship game to make some moves. They’ve already changed who calls the plays and cut some long standing veterans. Still, I think you’re right. Philly will be very active over the next few weeks.Lots of money to work with. The Giants seem like a sneaky good fit for Suh. Cap space, 4-3, historically invest in the defensive line, already have JPP, big market team.
I would like to hear Rob’s take on a number of corners that he hasn’t discussed much: P.J.Williams, Kevin Johnson, Q Rollins at the top. Guys like Lorenzo Doss, Don Celiscar, Ron Darby, even Ekpre-Olomu. Some of these are best suited to slot/nickel.
Not the classic Seahawks type, but is it time to rethink the whole long CB formula, and introduce more diversity? They are going to be Edelman-ed to death from here on out, by any team with a water flea slot with quickness. Lane and Burley, I suppose, are the guys to do this. Thurmond was primarily that, too.
Let teams try and out-Edelman the Seahawks. Most teams don’t have Brady… and Seattle was still one yard from winning the game. At the end of the day, long cornerbacks have produced Sherman, Browner and Maxwell. It’s a good hit rate.
I don’t believe Williams, Rollins and Johnson will pass any of the length tests. Ekpre-Olomu is ideally suited to the slot and could be a value later round pick because of the injury (similar to Thurmond). I intend to watch Darby over the next fortnight. My favorite slot corner remains Nelson at Oregon State and he’ll take some beating.
I will have to check out Nelson. Thanks.
I just don’t see why Seattle needs to switch out of its parameters for corners. Nor do I see why they need to necessarily change their approach to finding corners in later rounds. You can’t guarantee health for everyone all the time but regardless of Simon’s superbowl how do the patriots Edelman the team to death if Lane doesn’t mess up his knee and break his arm in the first quarter of the game. A good nickel negates a lot if that as well as a completely healthy LOB.
If they are going to consider corners outside of their scope lets reconsider Swann for nickel
Could not agree more my friend.
You negate the ‘Edelman’d to death’ by tackling better and having your LBs get proper depth on their zone drops. You could also confuse teams pre-snap with an exotic look or two.
I know Seattle will hardly ever do that, but I can’t recall exactly when it was, but remember that alignment when they had Avril and Bruce in a wide, wide 9, shoulder to shoulder?
Also important to remember that literally every single member of the LoB was either playing injured or left injured in the SB. When the entire scheme is predicated on giving up those short balls and then tackling well and every guy doing the tackling has a messed up shoulder, elbow, etc…? That doesn’t help a whole lot.
The wide nine when used is pretty ridiculous to watch how effective it is.
Rob, 2 quick questions for you.
Obviously Seattle emphasizes length and wingspan in their corners. Since wingspan is measured from the tip of your middle finger to the other middle finger, would guys that have like 8-8 1/2 inch hands, and 30 or 31 inch arms not meet the requirement?
What do you make of UCLA DT Ellis McCarthy? He was a guy I say all summer long being touted as a 1st or 2nd rounder. I see some flashes from him, but what’s his deal? Is he worth a mid to late round selection as a potential ‘Big’ Red Bryant type?
Volume 12 — maybe we can draft guys with short arms, but really big hands and then have them wear gloves with artificially extended fingers…… I think we are making too much of this arm length/wingspan idea. If PC/JS are looking at two identically skilled players, then I can see arm length/wingspan as a potential tiebreaker.
Anyone know how long Revis’ arms are, or what his wingspan is?
Can’t find a wingspan. Arms measured at 32 7/8″ inches at his pro day.
Yeah — but he’s only 5’11”, so I’d think his coverage radius would be smaller than a guy who may be a little taller, but has shorter arms. In other words, would you NOT draft a guy with 31 1/2 inch arms, but who is 6′ 2″?
LOL. I don’t think we are making too much of this arm length/wingspan thing. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Until they take a CB with less than their ideal or required arm length and wingspan, then it will be overblown. But until then…
It’s hard to say — wingspan is tough to project because there are so many different variables (how big your hands are, how broad your shoulders are etc).
Ellis McCarthy — massive tackle. Former big time recruit and had a decent combine. I’ve seen some work ethic concerns. Tape very inconsistent. I think he’d be a nice little project on day three. More of an interior nose IMO.
Hmmm. Broad shoulders. I never figured that in. Stupid, right?
Yeah that was why I asked about DT McCarthy. The work ethic concerns was something that caught my eye as well.
Thanks man. Always love bouncing things off of ya.
I really do think Seattle will bring in a corner from FA. Possibly we dip into the CFL again. I really am not sure who it will be but I really don’t think they want to go into the draft with a hole at corner. We had a strength at corner because we were in control. We drafted Thurmond PCs first year and then added Browner the next season in FA. We added Browner before we went and drafted Sherman and Maxwell that season. We made sure we had something at corner before going into the draft. We got kinda lucky that year with those two being there. The next season we added onto that with Lane and then Simon the next season. We went into the draft with control knowing we didn’t have to reach or even draft a corner because we had starters and then depth. This season we don’t have any control going into the draft unless we get a corner in FA. Like you have been saying, corners are a high commodity and there aren’t a ton in this drafty that fit our bill. If they do they are likely too high for our liking. Im sure our plan was to go into the draft focused on helping Wilson and if we are forced to reach for a CB it goes against that. Getting a TE in FA will help lessen the blow of that but I still want to go offense the first two rounds. Seattle has always been a step ahead of everyone and I highly doubt they are banking on a corner at round 3 or even 4.
We even added Burley this season. We were always in control.
Burley was okay without any of training camp – I think after this year, he’ll be better and more dependable. He’ll get his chance to take the slot job.
I’m going to talk about TEs. Miller wasn’t brought in to catch a crap load of passes. He was brought in cause he understood the ZBS that Cable ran. The offensive line injuries caused him to have to stay in and of course this affected the few passes he caught each game. We already got that seam guy in Luke Willson but we don’t have that blocking TE who avgs. 3 to 4 passes a game. 2 years ago I tried to get a Travis Kelce who was drafted by Kansas City the next pick after Christian Michaels. I’m not going to spend 6 to 7 million on a TE that can only do one part of the job because we just don’t throw 80 passes to 1 player.
Clive Walford TE Miami, 6’4″ 251lbs. 34″arms 10 1/4″hands. posted 4.79-40, 35″-vj, 120″-bj
He can block and he has the tools to get his 3 to 4 passes a game. I got him as my 96pick in the 3rd round. I love what miller has done for us but its time to move on.
My sense is that the Seahawks won’t pick 1 TE in this draft but 2 or 3. This will give Seahawks off some good safety valve options, big targets and help with run blocking.
This isn’t the draft to go chasing TE’s. You’d be fighting the value. It’s a thoroughly mediocre-to-poor group.
I would be just fine using #31 on a CB IF the talent is there to justify it. I think Peters could be one of those guys that is good enough, and we should have better information on him than anybody else. CB is important enough to not leave it to hopes and wishes that a guy can convert or turn into something down the road.
But as always, depends on what’s on the board when we pick.
I put my money on first rounder TE Maxx Williams… he’s basically Zach Miller clone. Bank on this pick, if he falls to 31.
Even if he is a Miller clone (I think they’re quite different personally) — I’m not sure the Seahawks would want to spend a first round pick on a younger version of Miller.