Veteran moves like this during a QB keeper should reassure fans concerned about a lack of experience
Pete Carroll says this is an open competition at quarterback. Time to prove it by starting Russell Wilson against Kansas City next weekend.
Wilson may well be competing against second stringers in pre-season so far, but he’s gone beyond what we could reasonably expect from his two performances against the Titans and Broncos. Against Denver he lit up the second half, leading sustained scoring drives equating to three touchdowns. He’s earned his chance to show what he can do when guys like Von Miller and Champ Bailey are on the field.
Now don’t get me wrong, Matt Flynn hasn’t necessarily done anything wrong yet. He’s been OK, pleasantly average and certainly not bad. The plan may well be to give him as many first team snaps as possible so he can settle into a rhythm. I get that. I could even accept it if we hadn’t been told time and time again that this was an open competition. If it wasn’t an open competition and the plan was to prepare Flynn to start all along, they shouldn’t have bothered with the charade of giving Tarvaris Jackson any first team snaps during training camp. They should’ve pumped maximum energy into getting Flynn prepared for the new season. But they didn’t, they shared the snaps and talked about competition all the time.
I would argue Wilson has shown enough to warrant a chance with the #1 offense facing a #1 defense. And hey – why not see if Flynn can light it up in the same way in the second half?
Most reports this weekend seem to suggest Flynn is still in the driving seat in this race, but why? Simply because he’s started both games? Because he has a bit more experience, but only a bit? This weekend he flashed a very nice deep ball that should’ve been caught by Terrell Owens – and it’ll ease concerns about his arm strength. But apart from that I’m struggling to find many more stand out positives. He just about avoided two pick-sixes, risking throws that the defensive back on each occasion almost undercut. He was inaccurate on a couple of easy throws. He still looked a little hesitant at times. He should’ve had his first touchdown scoring drive but for T.O.’s gaffe, but the stat line reads two games, zero touchdown drives. Wilson has five touchdown drives.
I’m sure Flynn can be a solid game manager and I sense a lot of fans and media are prepared to roll with that. I don’t think Flynn winning this job would be a disaster. What I do think would be a disaster is not giving Wilson the maximum opportunity to prove he’s a better quarterback. I think he probably is. In fact I think he offers a lot of the positives Flynn brings to the table, but adds an X-factor that the former Green Bay QB cannot match. While Flynn is neat and tidy, Wilson makes things happen. When a play doesn’t go perfectly, Wilson will get three yards on a scramble where Flynn maybe gets sacked and loses six or eight.
People talk about experience, but am I the only one who saw a hard count drawing the offside from Wilson? Or the way he pointed at a defender mid-scramble as a way of distraction to buy an extra yard or two? Classic veteran moves. We don’t need to wait a year or for Flynn to fail to play a quarterback with bigger upside. A lot of teams start rookies these days and prosper – just ask Cincinnati or Carolina from last year.
Wilson was in the game for 11 minutes against Denver before I saw a play I didn’t like – a hesitant play action where he took an unnecessary sack. But Flynn has those too, in fact he’s had several more than Wilson in the first two games. 3rd and 17? Wilson makes it. His ability to run is good enough to be more than an play-extending measure – he can effectively break off runs and be a threat on the ground. He did a much better job in week two selling play action and looked a lot more comfortable overall.
This isn’t me saying start the guy against Arizona when it matters. Not yet anyway. But all summer we’ve gone on about a competition and Russell Wilson is winning. So it’s time to give him the chance to win this job for keeps by starting him next weekend. What have we got to lose? Remove the shackles of conservatism Seattle. Stop worrying about experience – more and more rookies thrive on it, and Wilson appears a lot more mature than the average young quarterback. Matt Flynn’s two starts for Green Bay really shouldn’t be a difference maker here and nor should his time watching Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. How many quarterbacks watched Peyton Manning in Indianapolis and never amounted to much?
Let’s not be afraid to give the rookie a shot if he’s the best performer in pre-season. Let’s see what he can do on the road against the Chiefs starting defense next weekend.
You are the voice of reason Rob. Great stuff and completely agree.
Unfortunately, the pinnacle of QB play in Seattle is Hasselbeck who was a system guy, who couldn’t make much out of nothing. I guess we are in the minority of wanting more than a game manager, but the name of the game in Seattle has been for the QB “not to screw up.”
Unfortunately, this type of play will never get us to a SB. Not saying that Wilson does, but he clearly has more upside and physical ability, where everything doesn’t need to be perfect in order to make a big play.
I still love the way this team is built, but I am with you…we need more out of a QB than just managing an offense.
*BTW, that wasn’t meant to be a shot at Hasselbeck, who was a good NFL QB. Just a statement how fans are attached to that style of play and can overvalue their own players.
I guess my bottom line point, was, the smaller your margin of error is, the much harder it is to win. A game managing QB, who is very limited physically, simply means everything from the O line to run game to the defense better be hitting on all cylinders or we will forever live in 7-9 win land. I’d rather widen that margin of error. Let’s see if RW can do that.
“Unfortunately, this type of play will never get us to a SB”
While I don’t wish to defend the conservative point of view that is calling for a game manager, and I cercaintly agree that Wilson has a higher upside than Flynn, I have to ask if you were around in 2005 when “this type of play” did in fact get us to a superbowl?
I was, and it did not end well. Plus this was 7 years ago, now and they game has evolved more since then. The rules have changed even more favoring passing and big plays. The offense must score points and lots of them. The defense will not be able to keep every game under 14 points.
Tom Brady is the Flynn type of QB. He seems to still do pretty well…
No quarterback is like Tom Brady.
Michael –
You are correct sir. And yes, I was around for that (and we lost). If you read my second post, I tried to clarify my sentiment by using the “margin of error” argument.
It wasn’t meant to be a ‘definitive’ statement, but rather (again), that we are going to make it very tough on ourselves by making that margin of error very small.
I simply want us to up the odds with this endeavor. That’s all.
The only reason I wouldn’t start Wilson at this point is if he started and took a ton of QB hits because I think that is the one thing that can screw up his development. But at this point, what do we have to lose? Russell Wilson’s progress is ridiculous given that he’s been splitting reps with two other QBs and is a rookie. I was not a fan of either the Flynn signing or the Wilson pick, but unlike Flynn, Wilson has completely won me over.
A big thing for me at this point is our starting D has had 5 turnovers in two first halves and Flynn still couldn’t get a TD. Lynch was averaging 6 yds a carry and still Flynn couldn’t do it. Danny O Neil said it best, in two games the starting D has more TD than the starting offense.
The reason Seattle has won in preseason by comfortable margins is because Wilson looks head and shoulders above everyone else he’s playing with. He still makes rookie mistakes but that’s to be expected.
Flynn campers tend to point out efficiency and he can convert 3rd downs. Flynn was 2/8 on 3rd down and Wilson was 8/10. Flynn was below 50% comp and I swear was spared two MAJOR interceptions where the ball very literally hit the DB in the hands.
Maybe this is the first unit just being bad. But WE NEED to see Flynn light up 2nd stringers and Wilson struggle if it is indeed just a colossal difference in difficulty. But Wilson has passed every test and risen to every occasion so far so what’s to think he won’t do it now? I don’t think one more game will drastically increase the “problems” this competition has already done. And all I’m saying is let’s see what happens. If he’s not ready, he’s not ready. But let’s see.
Even if the Seahawks continue to have Flynn start and play the first half every pre-season game, I disagree that it hasn’t been an open competition. Or that they would have needed to alternate for it to be a truly open competition. It is an ongoing competition, which is true of all positions on the team. Flynn knows that even if he starts all the way through the first few regular season games, he is only as good as his ability to out-produce what the coaches see in the next best guy. That is to say that Wilson is stringing together a fine body of work in the pre-season that may very well result in him starting sooner than later. It obviously just depends on how things go from the team’s performance to Flynn’s performance to Flynn’s health.
The point is that Carroll has nothing to prove to live up to anyone’s definition of open competition. You’ll never have a true scientific method of controlling all other variables and seeing in a vacuum how one guy does versus the other. It’s always going to be an evaluation of everything done lately from what they’ve been given. Everyone knows that Wilson has earned his shot at being #1, whenever it actually happens.
All fans should be much happier at the talent level this year over last, the ‘Hawks have shown a knack for incremental improvements all around the team and this year they finally have some at QB. There are no sacred players on this team. Ask Hasselback, Tatupu, Curry, or others. When the coaches feel there are better options, diminishing guys are offered minimum contracts, no contracts, or traded.
Agree, Rob. If Wilson doesn’t get the chance to start, this wasn’t the competition Carroll claimed it to be.
I do think that you have to factor in the fact that Wilson is doing this against backup defenses. But Flynn hasn’t played well enough, IMO, for that to be enough to entirely ignore Russell’s play. Had Flynn being playing better, I’d be fine with Wilson’s exploits being downplayed more. But he hasn’t, so I want to see Russ against KC’s #1’s.
Wilson is so legit.
I think you covered every reason, but I am adding my comment to this because I have been arguing all day and night it seems against the idea of bringing a check down yawn to the field. Nothing against Flynn, because he is a good QB, maybe better than what we had last year… and I say maybe because I don’t know how Flynn will really do under pressure of a game or injury.
Wilson is just a phenom though and when you have one of those you go, you throw conservative thinking out the window and test it and make sure its what you see.
I think Carroll has been putting Wilson on the 2nd string more to watch his will to win rise up when he has to carry the team. With Flynn, I think we can win games, but I don’t see a guy with the ability to create wins … not on his own, I can totally see Wilson adding two or three just because he is the QB
I think Flynn starts game 3 but Wilson starts game 4. Gets a chance to show what he can do. Then Flynn will get to work with all the receivers who are trying to make the team in a game time situation.
A game 4 preseason start is essentially worthless since the opponents #1’s will almost certainly be limited to one series or less… Since every team (except the Seahawks) will have made a decision on starting jobs by then, week 4 of the preseason is really all about keeping the starters healthy and getting one last look at the guys you’re about to cut/send to the practice squad.
Who is to say that game 4 is irrelevant anymore? The new CBA has been put in place limiting practices and resulting in teams having to maximize the time on the field to find team wide rhythm. This also puts more relevance on all pre season allowing the NFL to capitalize on pre season sales and reduce the whining of season ticket holders (like myself) that have been shafted for years paying full price for these games. I say run Wilson with the 1’s in game 3 and see what he does. Then run Flynn out on 4 to tune up for the regular season.
If my comment below has validity, T-Jax won’t play much, if at all, in pre-season games 3 and 4.
I’m no longer buying what many are selling as that Flynn’s performance would be better when/if all the offensive weapons are available for him.
This is football, and there is a great chacne that Rice may not even play this year, that Miller may be one concussion away form forced retirement, that for all we know Baldwin has some sort of nagging injury that lingers for the whole season and reduces his skills, that Lynch takes a “break” via Goodell for two games, that the offensive line has new and exciting injuries that crop up that have yet to surface. Point is, you need to be able to make things, anything, happen. I get that having better talent would certainly help him out, but as pointed out earlier by Rob and others, this isn’t Green Bay, even with Rice, our talent in that department doesn’t match theirs and Flynn’s goign to need to make it work somehow. And I jsut haven’t seen it yet.
If Flynn starts as I predict in pre-season game 3, then the quarterback competition was really not a competion as we the 12th believed. It was to see if Flynn and Wilson could makeT-Jack expendable, and now he is. Likely Flynn will be named the starter going into the season, Wilson as the back-up and Portis being #3. T-Jack you have done your best, you are tough as nails and we appreciate what you did for us, good luck in your new home.
Personally I would love to see Wilson start next week and play the first half with the #1’s and Flynn play the second half with the 2’s and 3’s. I sincerly believe it would be good for them, the coaches and of course us the fans. Russell Wilson is unique and he is our QBOTF. The only real real question is will it be this season or next season? In order for it to be this season, we need to see more and we need to see it against the number 1’s.
There has been a competition, Flynn has been winning it as Mr. Right Now. He appears to be every bit as capable as Alex Smith has been of being part of a winning team and may even be more scrappy and capable than Smith. He has played against two #1 defenses and has done well. And he would do even better with all of the offensive weapons ready to go. His numbers would have jumped up a peg if TO hadn’t drop that TD.
Wilson appears to have better tools and therefore higher upside. He also does not look like a bad option if they had to start him right now; which is really saying something. It will not hurt Wilson to start the season as #2 and in the long run it may even make him more knowledgeable and ready to make the jump from a good QB to a great QB faster.
Either way, we’ve gone from T-Jack/Whitehurst to Flynn/Wilson; the results will show on the field. Watching Flynn on those opening drives I just kept remember all the 3 and outs with T-Jack last year, but Flynn kept moving the chains and taking what was given; that ha me optimistic and excited to see Rice/Baldwin/Tate/Miller/Winslow to go with BeastMode/Hulk.
“He has played against two #1 defenses and has done well.”
HUH?
Just 31 f’ing yards passing in a half is doing well? No TD’s in 2 halves is doing well?
My question is how you define “well”?
Rob, I respect your opinion but completely disagree. We must acknowledge that the team is using preseason games to work on specific things and to assume that we can accurately judge Flynn’s performance is wrong. For example, Carroll stated that they were specifically targeting Owens in the first quarter. The fact that incorrect routes caused incompletions changed the down and distance that Flynn faced or the plays he might have ran.
Don’t get me wrong, Flynn was by no means flawless, but given the complete lack of information that we have around the true nature of the competition, it is irresponsible for us to call for Wilson unless the coaches make that call. There’s plenty of time to second guess if Flynn struggles in the opening game. But what if Wilson struggles in the preseason game? We’ve now wasted the best opportunity for Flynn to prepare for a regular start in the third per-season game.
The time for Wilson to have his chance was last week.
Thanks, always appreciate the content.
How is it irresponsible to call for wilson, in the alleged age of Always compete? It’s okay to keep on keeping on, where we generate fieldgulls and staleld drives on turnovers, but then if it continues into the regular season when games actually matter then we can at that point try to get Wilson up to spped in a week and sub out Flynn?
I actually think now is the time to put Wilson in. Then if he stalls out, leads us to field goals, gets sacked, makes dumb choices, and generally bottoms out, you, me, and most importantly Carrol will know with out a doubt that Flynn’s the man. Then in the final pre-season game, they can keep flynn out there to “work on,” or tweak plays. Who cares what teams typically do? maybe teams should use all the pre-season games as live practices, and not just do teh standard, one series, one half, three quarters, nothing. Seattle has already changed the paradigm on the first game by having each QB play a half..
ha! “field gulls,” how dumb. Obviously I meant field goals.
A) Field Gulls is not dumb.
B) Were the FGs Flynn’s fault? Dropped passes, penalties, and incorrect routes were what stalled Flynn’s drives, not Flynn.
Corax – Peter wasn’t saying Field Gulls is dumb. He was referring to his own typo.
I know. My forte is sarcasm on Field Gulls.
Thanks both of you for the chuckle! I love field gulls, heck I even love field goals, and during pre-season I don’t put stalled drives on QB’s shoulders, plus both of them, Flynn/Wilson are in new systems, etc. etc. learning curve, something, no Rice, etc….Big picture however is that the QB position when the regular season starts unfairly things that happen become your fault. Would Hassellbeck, been a world beater with a better oline? Maybe. But he didn’t have that luxury and the wins/losses reflected that, as we moved ever increasingly towards trying to win more and more games on the foot of Olindo Mare, Josh Brown, and Haushka…when a Defense produces turnovers the likelyhood that you win the game goes up rapidly. Perhaps not exponentially because, duh, that’s hyperbolic, but when the drive stalls and you get 3 points instead of 7, you end up witha sloppy Denver team coming out on top at the halfway point.
In summation, I’ll give you it’s not Flynn’s fault…at this point. But when the games count, unfairly I even will begin to blame him if the pattern continues. Right or wrong.
Well said Rob.
I hope they give him a chance to win this job out right and we should know in the next day or two because this week is a Friday game. Usually the third game is the most important of the preseason where the starters play into the third quarter. If Flynn is named the starter this week then we know he will be the regular season starter for sure. If Russ gets the start than I think you are right – which I think he should – we can buy what Pete is selling. We are definitely much improved at the position this year. It was interesting to see Wilson out shine Osweiler who went 18 picks ahead of him in the draft.
My prediction :
Whichever QB starts preseason week 3 will be starting the regular season week 1. Week 3 of the preseason is the closest it comes to a regular season game, and unless the week 3 starter has a complete meltdown, that QB will be given the job.
My second prediction:
Despite all of the talk to the contrary, Pete Carroll has already made up his mind that Matt Flynn will be starting week 1 of the regular season, and will therefore start week 3 of the preseason. Russell Wilson will be named the backup, and remain the backup despite lighting up week 4 of the preseason (against other non-starters yet again…) and T-Jack will either be traded for a 2019 7th round pick or simply cut.
I would love to see what Russell Wilson can do against a 1st team defense, but my gut tells me that just isn’t gonna happen this Saturday… Sigh.
I think you’re right here. I will not be disappointed if Flynn starts but I think it could just be delaying the inevitable. RW will be the starting QB for the Seahawks… if not now then soon.
I agree Flynn will be the starter week 3 and the season. However, I believe Jackson will be slotted as the #2. Until he is traded or cut that is. This whole thing of not playing Jax is to not expose his numerous faults with 2012 videos. It’s about getting the most out of a trade. Exposing him further could reduce his value to almost 0. They are probably perfectly willing to cut him but this strategy may be their ploy to get that elusive 2019 7th round pick.
I would think that the whole point of not playing T-Jack is to avoid injury…
The way we define competition is not the way Pete defines competition. We mistakenly believed that the 3 QBs were competing against each other to be the starter. If that was so, as Rob points out, Russell Wilson has won that competition. However, that is not what Pete has been conducting. He has the 3 QBs competing against his plan and expectation at the position. In other words, based on clear circumstantial evidence, Pete has planned all along for Flynn to be the starter, and Matt was simply competing against himself to show Pete he could perform to those expectations. Likewise, Pete has planned all along for Russell to be the #2 (and eventual starter by next year or the next), and Wilson was competing against himself to prove to Pete that his plan was valid. The competition never was between the three guys to be the starter, else they would have been rotated in the preseason games.
I said very early that w/ Flynn I see field goals & with Wilson I see touchdowns. That said, I think Flynn has looked very good in BOTH games & should’ve had TWO touchdown passes to Owens: 1) the drop & 2) the 2nd back shoulder throw near the goal line that would’ve beaten Bailey for a TD. Either way I feel good with whoever starts. I think it’ll be Flynn, & if he happens to go down (knock on wood) Wilson won’t let him take the job back. #12thMan
If we keep playing the “well he should’ve had 2 TDs” then we need to also say “well… he should’ve had 2 picks to Harris”
Whichever came first takes precedence. If the TD throw came first, then the INT wouldn’t have happened.
Excuses, excuses. ANY QB that can only manage 31 passing yards in a game is not ready to be a starter.
Regarding “But all summer we’ve gone on about a competition and Russell Wilson is winning” I’d say that it seems that way on the surface to all of us watching from afar, but we only see part of the picture. Wilson’s looking better in the games. Flynn was reportedly a little ahead of Wilson and Jackson in open practices, where we have nothing visual to go on, just onlookers’ general comments. For closed practices, where they’re going through the most complex and strategic plays, the media there are not even supposed to disclose what they’re seeing, so we have no information at all. The lack of complete information available to us leads to at least one surprise every year at final cuts – Kevin Vickerson from a couple years ago comes to mind as a guy who seemed assured of making the team based on how he looked in preseason games. I know end of the roster moves vs starting QB battles is apples and oranges, but some of the same forces are in play, and I think fans tend to weigh exhibition game performance more highly than the coaches do.
My guess is that Wilson not only has to look better than Flynn, but has to look significantly better in most aspects to get the starting job. I’d like to see him run with the first teams in a preseason game, but understand there are reasons not to push it. It’s funny that half a year ago, we’re all talking about a hypothetical rookie QB ideally sitting for a bunch of games before becoming a starter, and now when actually faced with the situation it’s so tantalizing to want to start the guy immediately.
That’s a great point about Vickerson. I thought he was doing well, only to have him gone. Who knows about this whole QB thing really…
This entire situation is exremely odd. On the one hand, PC has gone out of his way to make it–at least to the outside–an open competition for the starting QB position. He declared it early on, right after the rookie mini-camp, surprising (shocking) many people, as genuine and open 3-way QB competitions are extremely rare, because they are so costly.
In any case, he rotated each player with the 1s, roughly equating reps with each of them, and then as pre-season approached, had TJack start in the first practice scrimmage, with Flynn starting the first pre-season game. Had he kept the same rotation, we should have seen RW start the second pre-season game, with a declared starter for the third.
By all accounts, Wilson did pretty well in practice. For the most part, no one truly separated themselves from the 3-man pack (at least as far as observers could tell, and based on comments from PC), meaning that Wilson aquitted himself well in keeping pace with the veterans. The latest reports mentioned how much Wilson had improved (comments made by the QB coach).
If PC starts Flynn this week, and names him the game-1 starter, what has all this meant? Doesn’t his credibility take a huge hit, both from his fans, and the locker room? Has it all been bullshit? If his intention (or expectation) all along was to start Flynn, why even include a rookie in the conversation? Nobody would have criticized or questioned a decision to have Flynn and TJack compete, with Wilson held out of the picture. As I already mentioned, quite the opposite: nobody would have thought twice about it. And in that case, no matter how well Wilson did in the pre-season, everybody would already know that he wasn’t competing for the starting role, and expectations would have been managed accordingly.
But what if this was the plan all along. What if (AND THIS IS A HUGE, WHAT IF) PC set this up in such a way that starting Wilson (if it came to the point it has) would be understandable. In other words, he starts Flynn these first two games, and if Flynn does well, then it doesn’t matter how well Wilson does, PC can comfortably name Flynn the starter and get on with it. But if Flynn struggles (and I would maintain that he has) and Wilson lights it up (and I would maintain he has) then PC can start Wilson now, and if the same pattern emerges (Wilson lights it up, Flynn struggles) the decision makes itself, and nobody can complain. (But this scenario is terribly unlikely, and simply dispalys a fan desparate to escape mediocrity grasping at elusive straws.)
I don’t get it. Flynn’s demonstrated capability will win few football games. Any victories will come from a powerful run attack and a lethal defense. In this day and age, that might get you to .500. To win playoff games, you need a guy at QB who can ’tilt the field’. Wilson can do that; Flynn, not so much.
And for what it’s worth, I think Flynn struggles behind the 2/3 offensive line, whereas Wilson playing with an effective running attack and some decent protection from the starting o-lines tears it up.
Hawk, it would be great to see that happen! I agree.
Well, according to Danny O’Neil over at Seattle Times, his sources have told him that Wilson will start against KC.
Are the first string wrs even getting open? From what I saw they lacked separation. This is something I think is contributing heavily to flynns numbers. That being said, it would be fair to see what Wilson can do with the same receivers and run game. I also think People shouldn’t be sold on the preseason.
the thing about First string WR’s is strange to me. Is butler really making the team? Does he really offer more then say Kearse based on his percieved rapport with Flynn? I use Kearse as the example because he’s bigger and could perhaps contribute more on special teams.
Baldwin of course is the man, but after him who else brings consistency to the table? From practice reports it seems that Rice has been playing limited reps all training camp, so would he really make a difference immediately for either Flynn or Wilson? Of course he did last year when he went in and hooked it up with Tjax, but they had years to work together.
Point from me is that it seems lost in the shuffle of QB competition, is that the WR’s have been battling pretty heavily for roster spots, and outside of Baldwin and Rice, who haven’t worked a whole ton this off season, it seems for every QB out there in games and in practice there are myriad WR/TE/RB combinations to work through as well.
My unqualified mea culpa: you were right, I was wrong. Wilson has immense upside and as crazy as I would have thought this just a few weeks ago, I honestly hope he starts week 1.
It’s now reported that Wilson will start the third preseason game. So no story about bias here – move along!!!!
It does my black heart good to see so many other fans express the same desire I have. To have an exciting, talented and true blue Seahawk start as oppose to retread Packer Charlie Checkdown. Flynn is who I thought he was! He has a below average arm and an average command of the offense. I think RW3 is more than capable of being the Guy. He has made a bunch of practice squad guys and free agents look like a well oiled machine. He is making a lot of veteran moves, and I would definitively say he has made much more impressive vet moves than rookie mistakes. And people honking out and saying the bomb to Edwards was a bad pass, gee whiz Charlie through the same pass to Nelson and it’s been played on highlights a 1000 times. It also looked much more like a commanded throw from RW3. I am very excited to see Wilson succeed. Get on board True Blue Hawkers.
Packer Charlie Checkdown…. brutal… but funny!!!
The man that set passing records in Green Bay has a below average arm??? Really??? He threw a 46 yard pass last weekend – but I guess that’s not far enough for you.
I wouldn’t be suprised if PC keeps playing both QBs for a half each into the regular season. They both need seasoning with game time experience. And bottom line is that we won’t know either’s potential at the end of preseason. It is unconventional = but if you listen to PC he has said that the competition is mapped out and will last longer than we think.