Joe Thomas could be traded by the Browns before the draft
Jason La Canfora has a track record on the Seahawks. Last year he called the Frank Clark pick the night before it happened. He also had the news on Marshawn Lynch’s new contract during the 2015 combine.
Today he posted some thoughts on Cleveland offensive tackle Joe Thomas. La Canfora thinks the Browns could still be open to trading him and suggests talks could occur during the upcoming owners meeting.
He questions why the Browns didn’t accept Denver’s offer of a first rounder plus change before the trade deadline — and believes they should go all out to acquire a similar deal before the 2016 draft.
Inevitably the Seahawks are mentioned…
Seattle, a team with an aggressive and bold general manager in John Schneider, has an opening at left tackle with injured Russell Okung moving on and the Seahawks not making a move in free agency. This kind of swashbuckling deal — with the Seahawks picking 26th and still firmly in Super Bowl-now mode — would be right up his alley. Some of his peers see him as a prime trade partner, though league sources have indicated that the slew of big contracts handed out by the Seahawks probably has to stop at some point, and they did just deal their top pick to take on tight end Jimmy Graham’s huge deal a year ago.
It doesn’t appear likely at this point, though with someone as cunning as Schneider I wouldn’t entirely rule it out, either.
It’s an interesting summary and goes further than merely linking the team to a need. La Canfora offers informed analysis. He doesn’t rule it out — but does suggest it’s unlikely.
That wouldn’t be a bad position for everyone to assume.
Thomas is a quality player and if he was 28 instead of approaching 32 it’d make a great deal of sense. However, he’s reaching the inevitable point in his career when players start to dip. Not many offensive tackles play on at an extremely high standard well into their 30’s.
Seattle’s physical brand of football, focused on the running game, hasn’t just led to injury issues for Russell Okung. Virtually every member of Seattle’s various O-lines has missed time since 2010. It’s challenging physically to play in this scheme.
Thomas would do it because he’s that type of guy. How long he could do it for is the big question.
What you pay him isn’t the issue. A $9.5m salary in 2016 with $10m to follow in each of the next two seasons is about the going rate. The thing to consider is the potential saving you make if you think you can get a very good offensive tackle at #26.
Sure — you won’t get Joe Thomas. But if you think you can get a good starter with a high ceiling and the potential to be great at a salary of £1.5m — that weighs into the equation.
Only recently we noted the lack of elite offensive tackles in the NFL’s top performing O-lines. Spending a first round pick on a great short term measure at tackle isn’t necessarily a formula for overall success. The interior line might be taking on a greater importance.
The Seahawks would have five years of club control on a young first round pick. If the prospect became a success — you’d be looking to pay him going into his peak years in the league. With Thomas you’re already investing heavily in the twilight of his career on what could be anything from a one to three year rental.
Team chemistry also has to be considered. Thomas wouldn’t be any kind of issue in the locker room — but repeatedly bringing in expensive outsiders might be a problem. Especially when you consider that, like Jimmy Graham, Thomas’ salary would be greater than Michael Bennett’s and Kam Chancellor’s.
Eventually they have to draw the line on that type of activity — as La Canfora notes.
The Seahawks will continue to be linked with Thomas until he goes somewhere else (providing he does). It’d be wrong to rule it out completely. Many fans will clamour for the trade — amid a perception that the Seahawks now cannot address their biggest need sufficiently.
However — it’d be wrong to assume they didn’t have a plan when they allowed Russell Okung to walk for what amounts to a one-year, $5m prove-it deal. Or when Donald Penn re-signed with the Raiders for $7m or Kelvin Beachum rolled the dice in Jacksonville.
They’ll know what they want to do — and the plan likely involves using the draft to substantially address this matter. It just so happens this is a pretty good class if you’re wanting to make a couple of additions to your offensive line.
Is getting younger a problem? Maybe initially. But the key for the Seahawks isn’t to just add one big name to reassure the fans. It’s to create a line that can play together, ideally, for the next 4-5 years at least. Cohesion, consistency and performance. These things need to be built — and the Seahawks are re-building their line because they didn’t want to pay Okung and J.R. Sweezy.
They might prefer to focus on the interior line — again as we discussed here.
We know John Schneider likes to make deals so who knows what’ll happen. Given the lack of great pass rush options in the draft, is there an alternative trade out there for a defensive player? One similar to the move Arizona just made for Chandler Jones?
After all, the Seahawks do still have a bit of cap room to play with.
In a year like this, where the quality and depth at left tackle looks pretty good, I think the team rolls the dice on getting one at #26. The alternative of trading for Thomas would presumably require giving up #26, and then you’re really gambling that at age 32 he can still deliver several years of injury-free play that would allow for the cohesion you’re talking about. It’s obviously a risk and the team leaves itself open to some other team trading up from the early 2nd round to jump ahead of us and an obvious need. One of the things that Schneider and Carroll have done very well in recent years is entering the draft with no especially obvious needs – this might well be a departure from that if nothing changes before the draft.
I agree with you – we have a young QB and it would be nice to get an O line that could grow a bit together. Maybe it is only 3 year before everyone goes off and gets their money – ala Sweezy, but I’d like to see us take an OT, C and G in this draft. Someone may want to trade back up into the 1st – and if it isn’t too far back, you could still likely get a guy like Clark and maybe even Ifedi with a high 2nd rounder while picking up another draft choice. But I’d like to see us take Decker at 26.
I’m on the NOT trading for Thomas side and build through the draft. I would like to see them really start building the middle three into a monster and average would be OK on the outside. That’s why I feel like the Ryan Kelly pick could really be an option if the Seahawks think he’s the best center.
So a “good starter with a high ceiling and the potential to be great at a salary of £1.5m”…which comes to about $2.14m USD with the current exchange rate…that sounds like a bargain!
Seriously though, I think Seattle keeps that #26 pick and takes their favorite OL at that position, whether it’s a C (Kelly or Martin) or an OT. I think they’ll end up going with Ifedi, Spriggs, or Clark, each of whom would take a year (or two or three) to coach up to starting tackle (left or right), and then taking a center prospect in rounds 2 or 3.
Le’Raven Clark seems to be the rawest and has the lowest floor and maybe the highest ceiling–some of his college film is downright scary–while Spriggs might be the most NFL-ready of that trio, with Shon Coleman perhaps the most NFL-ready of any OT who’d be available at #26. Decisions, decisions!
I can’t see adding him without shedding some salary. I don’t think it’s going to be a picks only kind of trade.
Price will be at issue. Maybe it’s #26 and #124 plus a player for Thomas and #99. The value in this draft really seems to be in the 3rd/4th round range.
It’s worth noting that Cleveland doesn’t have the same FO they did when they balked at Denver’s trade proposal. This FO in Cleveland looks more like it’s going to covet picks and build similar to how we did in 2010/11/12. I’d also put it out there that as we get closer to the draft, those draft picks loom a lot larger than they do in October.
I don’t expect this trade. But I can definitely see it’s possible genesis. Beyond simply the ‘we have an open spot’ angle.
I wouldn’t suggest or argue that Cleveland’s asking price today will be the same as it was last October. The situation and circumstances have significantly changed on the Cleveland side of the ledger.
I think any team that trades a 1st rounder for Joe Thomas is nuts. You hit all the key points, but the bottom line is that he is 32 years old. Literally that’s the only thing that matters.
He may very well play at a high level for another 3 years. But I think assuming this is the case would be fool hearted. Roll the dice in the draft, save $, and trust the process.
Great work Rob.
“He may very well play at a high level for another 3 years”
If that is what the perceived window is for a SB, then it works ($ aside). Don’t worry about LT, let rookies develop, phase them in, let Thomas anchor in the meantime.
But I don’t think this team is that worried about the short term.
I think the LT is already on the roster…Garry Gilliam.
I’d rather us grab a couple young studs for the interior. Our championship window is 8-10 years. Why? We have the QB. Nothing else matters without the QB. I trust Gilliam and I trust us to draft a few guys to grow with RW. More important, it allows us to get younger and stay cheaper at OL.
I don’t think the “perceived window” for a championship is that narrow. As long as Russell Wilson continues to play as an elite qb and the front office continues to have a shrewd long term approach there is no reason they can’t continue to be a perennial threat in the same way the
Patriots and Steelers have.
I agree. A window is open as long as you have an elite QB. RW is elite, so the Seahawks have a window that is open for another decade.
While QB is the most important position in isolation, the window isn’t so wide on the defensive side of the ball. Sherm, ET, aren’t locked up forever. Kam may have seen his best days (let’s hope last year was an aberration) and Avril and Bennett aren’t getting any younger. While Wilson’s best days hopefully are in front of him, this defense may not ever be as good as it is now again.
The window lasts as long as Wilson is top tier.
They clearly want to strike while the iron is hot with this loaded roster — but that doesn’t mean they think it’s two years and then it’s all over.
Agreed. They’re situation is nowhere near what the Cardinals is who have one or at most two more years with Carson Palmer.
Exactly. You said it more eloquent than I did.
I think a Joe Thomas trade signifies a “we have 2 years to win” mindset. Don’t see JS doing that.
Very true look how the Steelers have stayed relevant through their dismantling of that defense from our first sb.
I read that article earlier. Almost sounds like JLC is lobbying for SEA to make the trade, even as he rationalizes it won’t happen. It’s a sexy thought, especially with Jimmy Graham as recent precedent. But you don’t build championships by repeatedly trading away your R1 picks for expensive FAs. You might win a SB that way, but not a dynasty.
I’m glad you took the issue on again. It’s a reasonable enough debate either way.
I wouldn’t be pissed if the traded for Mack (unless it cost us Baldwin or MikeB down the line), but I don’t like it.
I agree with you Rob, it doesn’t make a ton of sense given the moves (or lack thereof) they have made so far. The Seahawks FO has to know they are in Russell Wilson and their teams peak years, the Superbowl golden age for the Seahawks organization. We don’t have a ton of needs on our team in regards to the draft. We could obviously use a LB, a DE, maybe a low round WR, a low round CB, a DT is our highest non-OL need but the draft is deep so we don’t need to go DT in round 1 or 2.
This sets us up perfectly to acquire OL talent multiple times this draft year and have those guys + Gilliam and Glow be our 4+ years long term starters on the line. If we draft Ifedi at 26, McGovern (for Center) in R2 and say Dahl in R3 or R4…all of a sudden our OL is filled with low cost talent, youth and long term club control.
LT: Gilliam
LG: Webb (backup Britt)
C: McGovern (backup Lewis, Dahl, Sokoli)
RG: Glow (backup Dahl)
RT: Ifedi (backup Dahl, Gilliam, Webb)
Now you imagine the goal with a player like Sokoli goes from being a Center project to a LG project. Have him add weight and develop as a LG, then in 2017 he, Britt and maybe a draft pick or Poole or a FA compete to be our long term LG, to join the group of young, long term OLinemen we’ve got.
That makes the most sense in the world when you think about our defense, our QB (+ his age), our team and our coaching staff (how long are JS and PC gonna be here?). It builds the OL for cheap, with young talented players who are under club control for a long time, cohesion and continuity can be acquired. By 2018 or 2019 we could have multiple pro-bowlers on our OL, we could have one of the top 10 O-lines in the NFL with Russ behind it and Rawls behind it.
I can see a straight up Thomas for Bennett in the trade wind’s…
No way dude. MikeB is considered to be problem number one on our defense by other teams (like BB in SB49), and our D is STACKED with disruptive/playmaking players. We are already light on pass rush and needing to add talent in this draft (and I don’t think this is a particularly good DE draft class, and not a good pass rushing DT draft class). If we traded away MikeB we’d have Frank Clark, Cliff Avril, Marsh, Hill, Ryan Robinson and Josh Shirley…
Wouldn’t make any sense for Browns…31 for 31 with similar salary.
That would be a dangerous and risky trade that loses as much as it gains. It doesn’t make sense right now. Giving away your best pass rusher, in a bad offseason for pass rushers, for a short term answer at LT.
I am in no way advocating the trade, it’s what I think is most likely to happen. It changes priorities at the top of the draft, and again maybe not. We can still move up in the 2nd.
It depends on a couple of things. What do you believe the championship window is for this team’s nucleus?
If more than 2 years or more, and nobody is concerned about short term results, then youth prevails and that means draft. Forget a big name lineman. This seems to be the preferred view. If it is 2 years or less, time running out, and there is no confidence that youth and rookies will succeed in the interim, then a deal for a Joe Thomas instantly anchors the position.
The former seems to be more the case. So I doubt they’d go for Thomas. They do not seem to have issues with Cable’s continuing process. Having flexibility at the top of this draft is especially important this time around.
And I also doubt they will make a big move for a pass rusher. They’ll make due with Frank Clark.
Let’s not forget about Cassius Marsh either.
I dunno. Assuming they unload Lynch properly and recoup his $6.5M, they have about $7.5M available for 2016. Some have suggested they use that to resign Baldwin and maybe restructure Bennett. But that makes no sense. They can extend Baldwin at any time after the season ends, or they can preemptively extend him sooner without affecting his contract/cap hit for 2016.
Same thing with Bennett. Why would any team give a player already under contract more money right before the start of a season? They didn’t do it when Kam tried to force them.
Anyway, if they don’t use that $7.5M it’s lost. Why not try to trade for a vet pass rusher (or sign a FA)? It’s one less need they’ll have to address in the draft.
“One theory floating around is that the Seahawks are willing to keep him on the roster until June 1, at which time the cap charge arising from his official retirement would be $2.5 million this year and $2.5 million in 2017. If he officially retires before June 1, the cap charge for 2016 would be $5 million.
The other option could be to cut Lynch after the start of the new league year with a post-June 1 designation, splitting the $5 million cap charge between two seasons. To get there, however, they’d still have to carry the full $11.5 million on the books until June 1.” via Mike Florio- PFT
Waiting on Lynch until June 1 opens up $9 m in cap space in 2016. I’m not a cap wiz, but it looks like trading for Joe Thomas would fit under the cap.
Mike Florio is wrong.
If the Seahawks decided that they want to spread the 5M over 2 years, all they had to do was cut Lynch now and designate him as a post June 1st cut. You do not have to wait till June to actually do it.
The delay with Lynch is a game he is playing with the FO. Lynch kinda resigned but not formally resigned. If the team cuts him now he becomes a FA with all the rights of a FA. I.E., if he gets a phone call from the Raiders begging him to be the face of the franchise he can decide to finish his career with OAK.
The Seahawks are ready to let Lynch retire and not demand any of his outstanding signing bonus but they will not be made fools. If he wants to retire, he should retire. They are not going to cut him right now.
Florio isn’t wrong, that was the second scenario he presented.
Agreed if Marshawn wants to retire do it. Him not filing the paperwork is frustrating, it handcuffs JS. Pretty disappointed that Lynch is dragging his feet on the organization that treated him right.
I agree.
The Seahawks can decide if they want that money split or not. Lynch does not handcuff them. Lynch is just being Lynch.
Not only that, you also have to look at what Rob suggested: is having a great LT really all that useful a component of a championship football team? Lots of questions here. Do you need a great LT to have a great line? If it helps, how much? Can you make more improvements to your line overall by, as has been discussed, rolling with an average LT but a vastly improved interior? Is a great line even necessary to win a championship? If it helps, how much? Are other improvements easier or more cost-effective?
I might give them the #56. Let them feel cozy at night hugging Joe Thomas and that 2-14 record if that’s not enough.
It’s not lost, you can roll it over in 2017.
How about Chancelor and a 3rd rounder for Thomas? McCray got better as the season went on…or we could draft Neal at 26 after a trade like this. I wouldn’t like this trade….just throwin it out there for fun
They’ve been actively looking for another pass rusher.
Reposing this from the end of the last article.
I’ve been thinking about Robs two draft thought processes, either OT early or roll with the OTs we have and grab a defensive playmaker. I think this draft is going to force JS hand at OT. There is just too much of an abundance of talent at OT this year. They aren’t going to be able to find a tackle as highly rated as Ifedi/Coleman/Spriggs/Decker/Clark at the end of a draft for another 5-6 years probably. That talent mostly drops off before pick 56. This is why I expect one of the five players kentioned above to be a Hawk soon.
I’m not sure that Scheider’s hand is forced, so much as he’s set the roster up to have needs at positions of strength in the draft. OT is strong at the top, DT has an abundance of riches, G/C has some quality depth likely into day 3.
If Ifedi’s off the board I want a trade down
Poor Joe Thomas. Imagine being a great player stuck in a dumpster fire organisation. Ditto Calvin Johnson and countless others. Thomas must have been gutted watching the Superbowl this year and thinking of what might have been.
That said, I’m all for building the line throught the draft to give it a good chance to grow together for 4-5 years. By the end of that stage a lot of the team’s high earners will likely have moved on or be on lesser contracts so there should be room to try to keep the line together should it turn out to be a good one.
Cortez Kennedy says “hello”
At least Calvin Johnson made it to the playoffs twice…
When the dumpster fire organization pays you at or above market value it’s easy to sleep at night. I have a very stressful job where my boss and I don’t see eye to eye on many things but I’m compensated well and family is taken care of and after all is said and done I’m doing something I love. Thomas could of left Cleveland but he stayed for another contract. Championships are not as important to some people as others. I belive Thomas was the guy who was out fishing when he got drafted so high all those years back and not in New York in a monkey suit waiting for the cash register to ring. He probably doesn’t care about a ring, just setting his family up is important to him.
I’d rather have Ryan Kelly than Joe Thomas. Or Martin. Or Coleman.
Another thing to consider, if we trade #26 for Thomas, then the pick is gone. Duh. However, if we keep the pick, we still retain the right for someone to make a phone call and say they will trade a 3rd or 4th round pick if we’d be willing to move down a little into the second round or something (to still potentially get a Garnett, Whitehair, Martin, etc.).
I like the idea of keeping picks and keeping those guys on reasonable contracts for four years (team option for fifth year isn’t cheap anymore).
However, if we do end up getting Thomas, I’d be okay with it, too. I just don’t advocate trading picks for aging veterans.
Our 2016 left tackle may still be on the roster of another team. I keep hearing the Jets may not keep D. Ferguson because of his cap number. I’d rather have him cheaper than what Thomas costs AND keeping our first round pick. There’s still plenty of time…
I’d have to agree with Rob. It’s quite a gamble and there’s enough concern there that makes me wonder if he’s worth a 1st rd pick. I don’t think anyone really wants to give that up for a 32 year old tackle AND pay his contract.
I’d be quite comfortable with a 2nd rd draft pick but why would the Browns do that? If I were them I would just keep him and retire his number someday.
Percy Harvin – Bust
Jimmy Graham – Sort-of bust (still undecided) did not have the expected impact, injury
Joe Thomas – Pass. Lets try Gilliam at left Guard, could be the next Jason Peters (undrafted college tight end). Ifedi could be a great guard, Webb was signed to start somewhere.
Gilliam at left TACKLE, Ifedi to compete with Webb for right TACKLE, I imagine Rob (if he has watched Webb tape) would agree that Ifedi should beat Webb (I hear he is awful and OT his weakest position). That pushes Webb in at LG to compete with Britt (and maybe others; Sokoli, Poole, etc).
Draft Ifedi, draft McGovern, maybe draft Dahl in R3 or R4 if still there.
LT: Gilliam LG: Webb/Britt/____ C: McGovern RG: Glowinski RT: Ifedi
I agree Nathan, would much rather have Ifedi ( if he’s the pick) @ RT and Webb @LG.
LT – Gilliam/Poole
LG – Ifedi/Poole
C – Lewis/McGovern/Sokoli
RG – Glow/Britt/Sokoli/Player to be named later
RT – Britt/Webb/Player to be named later
So the 3 targets in FA or draft would be LG, RT and C. Very doable in the first 3 or 4 rounds.
Personally I’d rather have Webb at LG. He was a better guard than a tackle and put Ifedi at RT. I agree though that drafting 3 OL with our first 5 picks is foable.
I like this lineup a little better. Let ifedi ease in at guard and help make a solid interior. Also, I think McGovern would need a little time to learn how to play center. Let him compete at guard and backup center until he learns the offense
I think Ifedi is a guy who could develop into a pro bowl level LG. I don’t see him as an RT and definitely not year #1. How many player can you name that were not LTs in college who went on to become great tackles in the NFL?
Tyron Smith and Branden Albert
Sounds like the consensus on Thomas is thanks but no thanks. Let’s roll either with what we have at tackle or use 26 to strengthen it. Then start to build a future beast from the interior starting with a center and a future LG.
Using the draft for C and LG
Gilliam at Guard? I like him at tackle.
Gilliam at LT and draft a future LG.
Why does everyone just assume Gilliam is just going to switch over to LT and be great? Webb was the worst rated OT in the league, read that worse than Justn Britt was for us. He was an RG last year and was decent in Oakland. Think about that we have the one of the worst rated tackles in Webb playing RT and a converted TE who played one year at RT and not one snap at LT.
Despite this people would prefer drafting a LG who might turn out to be a good player in a couple of years instead of an 8 time all pro.
Gilliam moves well in space and can handle the speed rushers, his issue is with bull rushers or twists (when the guard misses his block or change of assignment)
So because of this you are sure he is going to be a solid LT next year?
LT RT what’s the difference…. either side your getting the speed rushers.
Don’t get me wrong I really like Gilliam a lot. In fact he is the one OL on the Hawks I have faith in. I am just saying it is a pretty big assumption everyone is making that he can just slide over to LT with no problem.
It just seems like Wilson gets out of edge pressure and makes plays when he gets outside the pocket. When pressure happens inside he’s done. If we had Peyton Manning as our QB we would want better tackles than interior.
That is true. I agree we need to upgrade the middle of the line as well. If we have Thomas at tackle we could move Webb to guard where he actually played pretty well last year. Fixes two spots.
This is true but having an all-pro LT and a strong interior line isn’t mutually exclusive. We have other draft picks that can be used on the interior (where the value is probably better anyway)
I’m with Trevor, I like Gilliam but I don’t blindly believe that you can pencil him in at LT and he’s gonna be a stud. Yes pressure up the middle is devastating, but Wilson’s been taken down plenty from the outside (and not even because he’s holding onto the ball), check out the 2014 home Cardinals game as exhibit A. Not to mention the downgrade in run blocking on the left side. I just don’t think it’s as easy as plug and play. While it’s clear an upgrade in the middle as well, it would feel a lot better if Gilliam stayed on the right side and we got some of Okungs caliber at the very least on the left side so we know the line won’t be worse than last year.
On Gilliam — these are fair points. However, it’s also worth noting he has pretty much the prototypical frame for a LT and certainly the prototypical athleticism. He just needs to get stronger — which can be rectified with another off-season in the weight room.
He might not be a proven commodity — but if a player was available in the 2016 draft with his skill set and a years experience at right tackle in the NFL — he’d go very early.
I would argue that Gilliam can’t be any worse than Mr. False Start himself Okung.
I’m not saying he will be a stud. I’m saying he will be adequate and available (not injured). This eliminates the “we must draft a LT” talk, so they can fill the OL with their players at RT or C or LG or RG or LT…… increased flexibility. I’m beginning to think the line should be called Frankenstein…. it has so many “spare parts”…. turned into one entity.
Agreed. Gilliam has to prove just like everyone else that he can be more consistent. He had an up and down year like everyone else. Also, glow played one game so hard to say he’s the answer too. If anything we are bringing in more competition and people will have to earn their spot, especially the rookies. Even though people think poorly of Britt I’m sure he will come in there and compete. He has one year at tackle and one at guard and will need to prove himself.
Sounds like no one is for the Joe Thomas trade. I will take the other side. This team has the following players under contract the next 2-3 years Russ, Bennett, Avril, Earl Sherm, Kam, Wags, Wright. That is the core of this team and the reason they are a championship caliber team. There is no assurance in 4 years any of them will be Hawks. We basically have a 3 year championship window for sure. I now win forever but the reality is we have these core players the next 2-3 years. Lets win now. Lets win a super bowl or two while we have these guys.
Joe Thomas is one of the best LT who has ever played this game. He has been a 1st or 2nd team all pro 8 times in 9 years. Every year except his rookie year. He has never missed one game. That is correct he has started and played every game in 9 years. Why is he going to break down now all of a sudden. I realize players age and with age comes injury sometimes. But sometimes it does not. He could easily have 3 more All Pro years left.
There is no guarantee any player we draft at 26 is not going to be another James Carpenter or Russel Okung who never meet expectations or get signed to a 2nd contract. In fact there is a far greater probability that we draft a James Carpenter at 26 than a player that could ever develop into anything close to Joe Thomas. There is a reason Denver was willing to trade a 1st and 2nd for a 31 year old LT. It is because he is one of the best ever to play the game.
If you can get him for a 1st round pick I make that deal all day long. You can find quality interior OL in rounds 2 and 3 you cannot find LTs then. If we have the cap space then I take 3 year of Joe Thomas over any 4-5 years of on OL prospect in this draft and it is not even close. We lost home field and then against Carolina because our OL sucked. Unless we fix the OL I don’t believe we can win another SB as our defense is not the 2013 version anymore.
What difference does it make if we draft a Spriggs or Ifedi and in 3 years they turn out to be really quality players but we have not won another SB because of poor OL play and our core players have moved on or are pasted their prime.
If Carolina had Joe Thomas last year do you thin Miller gets those 2 strip sacks and basically wins the SB for Den? I don’t think so. I assure you if you asked Russ who would you sooner have protecting you the next 3 years Joe Thomas or a rookie OL prospect like Ifedi we are going to take at 26, I think I know what the answer would be.
I’m with you, Trevor. Did anybody pay attention to Thomas when we played Cleveland? He was filthy – dude just absolutely dominated.
If history is any indication, John and Peter seem not to value first round picks as highly as the rest of the league. A chance to shore up the left tackle spot during their championship window with a first ballot HOF player must be tempting to them. They may be willing to bet that they can get 2-3 more good years out of a guy who to date has been amazingly durable.
The tackles that will be available to us (Ifedi, Coleman, Spriggs, Decker, Clark) all have boom or bust potential. I suspect there are a couple of lineman that JC likes better than those mocked at #26 that they know they can get in later rounds. With 20 draft picks over the next two years, the Hawks need elite quality, not quantity, on the Oline.
Consistency is the name of the game for left tackles and his name is Joe Thomas. They can draft their interior dudes with their 2nd and 3rd picks and let 8 players compete for 4 starting positions. Imagine having a difference making veteran on the left side rather than a guy learning how to play the position. Last years Oline fiasco repeating itself is a greater risk than Thomas’s health, imho.
Marshawn Lynch retired at age 29. Joe Thomas is 32.
You are comparing an Rb to an LT really?
This has ZERO bearing.
Maybe the two best left tackles in football last year? Andrew Whitworth (34) & Joe Thomas (31).
Jason Peters (34) and Donald Penn (32) where also top tackles.
Joe Thomas is 31. He does not turn 32 until December 2016. That doesn’t matter particularly to his value, but the error keeps being repeated in the comments.
Joe Thomas is 31 until December.
Trev I’m all for a Joe Thomas trade. I’m just not going to reiterate the positives I see in this particular thread after having previous ‘Joe’ posts beat down and called ridiculous and desperate haha.
Agreed. Tackle is a tough position for a rookie to just step in there and be successful. Center also is tough because of the mental part of the game by making all the calls and being the leader of the line. Seems like guard is the easiest position for us to plug a rookie in. If we can get a solid tackle then I’m all for it as long as it doesn’t kill us, i.e. A 1st and 2nd. Even if we draft a tackle this year I would rather have him compete at guard this year and transition to tackle next year.
Don’t make me post the vine again. Oher may not be Thomas, but no OT could block Miller on that field.
The NFL needs to hold teams to a higher standard with the fields or make them get turf in my opinion the turf quality effects too many games , see Seattle vs Carolina the very first play
Agreed, if the price is right. The window for this team is about three years, and after that it is Russ and a few of the younger guys… Lockett, Clark, etc. Otherwise it will be a rebuilt team. No doubt Thomas would be a far better LT than anyone we would draft for those next three years. That said, I would do no more than our R1 and maybe a R5. And who would be cut or restructure to get Thomas under the cap? I wonder if John/Pete have gotten a little gun shy over these blockbuster trades? However we go, the OL has to be better next season, how could it be worse?
James…you’re making the assumption that JS and PC have all of the sudden lost their ability to build a team. Don’t forget that they’ve built this team and, while losing some of their top picks along the way, have managed to keep a championship caliber team in tact.
You’re saying that the Hawks have only 3 years left to compete because PC and JS will no longer be able to find gems in the draft, make trades and negotiate contracts. Not true.
“If Carolina had Joe Thomas last year do you thin Miller gets those 2 strip sacks and basically wins the SB for Den?”
I’m not sure anyone was topping Von Miller in that game (especially with the turf representing an ice rink).
Perhaps but when Miller played the Browns last year he was completely shut out.
I think a play for a pass rusher is more likely than a deal for Thomas. When Schneider talked about cohesion it was probably easy to assume that meant re-signing everyone. I think instead the front office saw this offseason as an opportunity to grow that cohesion cheaply through players on rookie contracts. If guys like Gilliam and Glowinski turn out to be good, durable players, then maybe the club will be in better financial position to sign them to second contracts when that time comes.
Beyond those two, it feels like the competition along the OL is going to be an absolute free-for-all. I’m excited to see what it yields, even before we know who we’re adding to Lewis, Nowak, Sokoli, Webb, Britt, Sowell and Poole. I think there are even a couple practice squad guys like Pericak that they still want to give a look.
Given the lack of desire to pay high salaries on the offensive line I highly doubt this would ever happen.
If we traded for Joe Thomas we would still have the cheapest OL in the league.
If you can trade the 1st rounder for Joe Thams then make the trade. Draft an interior OL in Rd #2 Mcgovern, Martin, Westerman and then a developmental OT like Stephane Nebot in Rd#5 or 5.
2016 and 2017 OL
LT Joe Thomas, LG Webb, C Mcgovern, RG Glowinski, RT Gilliam
That OL looks like one that would at least be above average and give our team a chance to win another SB in the next two years.
There really is a case for both sides. One thing we know for sure is that we have zero say in the matter. The problem is how long can Thomas be elite? If it’s for 3 years the great but we don’t know. We also don’t know how a rookie would perfor so I would take the cheaper option myself.
I agree but there is a much higher probability the 8 time all pro will play better the next 3 years than anyone we draft at #26.
I can’t argue there, Im just not sure how much resources we need to spend on our tackles as long as RW is our QB. Build me a solid interior and we could really b explode offensively.
Agreed the interior has to be fixed. Getting Britt out of LG has to be priority #1 and I have faith in Glowinski.
Britt shouldn’t start. He should be our backup, or preferably a starter for another team 🙂
A first round OL would or could be under team control up to 5 years. This is extreme value and points to Seattle holding onto the 1st round pick. Perhaps they might trade back into the high 2nd round, for the right mix of future picks (2nds and 4th for example). I keep eyeing the 2 picks NE has in the second and trying to make it work, so Seattle would have 3 2nd round picks. This would be beautiful value when it comes to OL (and some other positions).
How much value did James Carpenter provide.
He has started for a winning Superbowl team. I would say a lot of value. How valuable has Thomas been toward winning? Cleveland has spent so many resources on the offensive line with Thomas, Mack, Bitonio, Irving, and Schwartz. Yet, what team has had the better offense the last several years?
Really you think Carpenter was a key to the Super Bowl win and Thomas is the reason Cleveland is a train wreck.
Could it be because in the NFL unless you have QB you cannot win perhaps? We have Russel Wilson and Clevaland had?
No one thinks Carpenter > Thomas, but would you prefer Seattle’s defense or Cleveland’s OL?
Wilson is the trump card for PC and JS. I think they’re loathe to use a big chunk of salary cap space since they have a top-5 offense with or without competent line play. It’s a risk to leave Russ to fend for himself, but he has been able to overcome it in spectacular fashion and the team has never enjoyed a more successful run in it’s history.
Looking at cap costs:
Joe Thomas: 2016: $9.5M, 2017: $10M, 2018: $10M
Rookie* (est): 2016: $1.6M, 2017: $2M, 2018: $2.4M, 2019: $2.8M, 2020: $10M (team option) *2015 R1, P24 D.J. Humphries’s contract with Arizona
That leaves room for another $8M contract through 2019 (Baldwin or Bennett extension, trade for pass rusher) or two more mid-level $4M contracts (trade for DT, G, C, SLB, RB, slot CB, other JS surprise or sign vet OL-Wisniewski?).
Three 2nd round picks would be awesome to have in this draft. The 1st half of the 2nd round looks like it will have tremendous value.
The patsies are going to do damage with those 2 second rounders.
Patsies haven’t drafted all that well over the years, lucky for them they tend to be VOLUME drafters. Their miss rate is among the highest in the NFL, lucky for them they hit at 4-ring homerun in the 6th round 15 years ago.
John Schneider has a history of trading 1st round picks. In my opinion he really has NOT done well. Seattle needs to start getting younger. I would be really upset if the Hawks traded for Joe Thomas.
They have the youngest team in the NFL! Why do they need to get younger?
We’re pretty young on offense. No one is older than 27. The defense could inject some youth, especially on the line as there getting on the wrong side of 30
I disagree they just need to make the right choices early with these talented ol available this year. Talent pool is far better.
These are the OL taken last year in Rd #1 after the 1st 10 picks.
#13 NO Andrus Peat
#21 Cin Cedric Ogbehui
#24 Ariz DJ Humphries
#28 Det Laken Tomlinson
Did any of these guys have an impact in their rookie year? Why do we think all of a sudden we are going to draft 3 rookies and hit on everyone of them to fix this OL.
I think PC/JS are the best at what they do but they have not drafted 3 quality OL prospects in their entire tenure and now we expect them to do it in one draft? Really?
Those are all fair points, the other side is the other first round players we traded for our first round picks haven’t worked out either.
I’d rather fail cheap than expensive.
We won an SB with Harvin and if I am correct he played a significant role in the SB. Sure he was an idiot and the trade did not work out but still we got a ring. The verdict is still out on Graham and I would take him over anyone drafted at the end of Rd#1 last year even after the injury.
We did win but we would have won without him, he didn’t really even play all year. But your not counting the salary cap s pace we could have used in other places if we didn’t sign Harvin to that fat contract or take on Grahams salary. Well never know but it’s also part of the equation.
Very true with that cap space they could have added other pieces. Solid point for sure.
Kind of an arbitrary comparison. Different OT class, different talent depth, different teams drafting in different order for different needs. Andrus Peat won the start at LG midway through the season. He struggled, but wasn’t a disaster. Same with Laken Tomlinson, who I think started at LG throughout the season. Both improved over the course of their rookie years. Ogbuehi was a project pick. He was never supposed to play. DJ Humphries got injured early and didn’t play much, but of the 4 he’s the only one who could be considered a bust.
And why limit it to just the first round? SEA didn’t pick an OT in 2015, so who’s to say they would’ve taken one of those? Take a look at who was selected in R2:
#34 TBB Donovan Smith
#53 CIN Jake Fisher
#57 LAR Rob Havenstein
#59 DEN Ty Sambrailo
I think the core point is that draft history has shown us that drafting OL in any round (even high 1st) isn’t a slam dunk if you are expecting immediate contributions (probably less than 50/50). Sure there are guys who step in and do well but there seem to plenty more that don’t play well immediately (although many eventually turn into solid contributors just not as rookies). Therefore the odds that we draft 3 OL and they immediately improve the line from last year is quite low. Which is pretty depressing in my opinion.
I suspect the odds of throwing in three free agent OL’s would be pretty similar to be fair.
This is probably true or maybe even less for free agents. But I think people are ready to peg in rookie draft picks as starters by default. We are building depth so that everyone will need to earn their spot not just be handed it. Some guys have all the talent in the world, but when you put them through adverse situations they may fold. Like Cody latimer, the Seahawks may have passed on him because he wasn’t competitive enough to handle the locker room. I assume the Hawks do a similar evaluation for all positions because a rookie lineman needs to be mentally tough enough to get better and not discouraged when Bennett schools you and talks trash to you everyday.
I was a big fan of Smith coming out and was hoping we would team him with his old Penn St room mate Gilliam.
That being said he was terrible to start the year and improved throughout. Havenstein was I guy I did not like coming out and he was solid but not special. Fischer and Sambraillo were far from dominant and both struggled.
None of these guys would fix our OL and the 1t round picks last year were worse. That was my point.
And Joel Bitonio, drafted in round two, had a great rookie year.
That was the year before.
I know — but the point is rookies are capable of performing in year one. The players you listed are not an exclusive review of rookie performance on the OL.
Also, Ogbuehi was recovering from an ACL so it’s harsh to suggest he didn’t have an impact.
Rob how man OTs drafted outside the top 10 can you name that have had a significant impact year #1. I am just saying there are very few and our record drafting OL has not been great.
I think there is a 90% chance we don’t make a trade and draft OL in Rd #1 but I think to assume that player is going to be a significant contributor and really upgrade our line next year is not a slam dunk that most people assume. Far more take at least a year to adjust to the NFL.
But to use this line of thinking, the Seahawks shouldn’t have drafted a 5-10 quarterback in round three because previous 5-10 QB’s and previous third round picks haven’t been franchise QB’s.
You can’t judge a prospect or a draft class on generalities or draft history. You have to judge each prospect as a separate individual. There are players in this class that can do what the Seahawks need them to do.
I agree completely but there are definite trends. Rusell Wilson and Tom Brady are two anomalies. If teams like the Browns and LA have the strategy of finding a frnchise QB after Rd #2 the odds are very slim. PC/JS were certainly not sure they would or they would not have signed Mat Flynn to that big deal.
I just think that I like you idea of building up the interior of the OL through the draft much more than drafting an OT at 26. The odds of getting a quality starting Guard or Center at 26 and in Rd #2 are far greater. ie Bitonio.
Then again, how many franchise qbs are there in general in the nfl, regardless of round they were drafted and height? Maybe 0-2 a year on average?
Rob what you just said isn’t said enough around here, GREAT COMMENT:
“You can’t judge a prospect or a draft class on generalities or draft history. You have to judge each prospect as a separate individual.”
Also, this classic Seahawk specific gem:
“There are players in this class that can do what the Seahawks need them to do.”
“I think to assume that player is going to be a significant contributor and really upgrade our line next year is not a slam dunk that most people assume. Far more take at least a year to adjust to the NFL.” Trevor
Agreed. Out of the 3 OL prospects we drafted last year there was only 1 start made-by Glowinski replacing an injured Sweezy. Cable has flat said that OLinemen come into the NFL unprepared and need at least a year to get up to speed. That said we have started from day 1 the 3 early OL picks we’ve spent on OL.
The rams started 2 rookies and had the best pass protecting o line in the league. Rookies can step in right away just usually not at tackle. Ifedi is an exception because he has the tools to be a left tackle and at right tackle he won’t have to deal with as talented of rushers
I doubt Mike Remmers sees it that way. Von Miller rushes primarily against RTs, so does Cliff Avril. J.J. Watt and Michael Bennett line up EVERYWHERE. Defenses are putting their best rushers against the offenses worst these days, without regard to traditional “strongside/weakside” or “right/left” labels.
true however how many right tackles are physically as gifted as Ifedi?
Lane Johnson comes to mind, as does Garry Gilliam. Not disagreeing with you about Ifedi, as after those two I can’t think of any others. My point is that the LT/RT roles are being blurred, it’s being forced upon the offense by the defense’s use of their best pass rushers. To the point that even my opinion that Gilliam is better suited for the LT spot is really becoming irrelevant.
Final note of the night by trading for Thomas we would be shoring up 3 spots on the line
#1 LT Joe Thomas- enough said
#2 Webb could play Guard not tackle where he is clearly more suited and player pretty well last year.
#3 Gilliam gets to stay at RT where we know he can play.
This I completely agree with. That’s would for surely be a bonus of adding Thomas
Anyway you look at it were all on the same team. Trade or no trade I enjoyed the debate Trevor.
Same here! I am sure PC/JS will figure it out. They always seem to have a plan.
As long as Britt isn’t part of the LG plan I’m good…lol
Webb was a train wreck at tackle. Fully agree with your views on this Trev. Some of the best LTs in the league last year were older than 31. I also feel Thomas is a perfect guy to show the young pups on the line how it’s done
Yes he was, I’d rather have Britt at RT and Webb at LG as it stands right now.
I thought Britt was decent at RT and improving. He was a great run blocker on the edge where he could line up a little higher, but inside his height is a liability. Getting out of his stance takes a hair longer and he loses leverage. Not a fan of guards taller than 6’4″. He should have stayed at tackle and rotated with Gilliam.
I agree, Britt was terrible at RT but he was at LG.
The reason I think Thomas could maintain a very high level of play well into his 30’s is that his game was never built around brute strength/overwhelming physicality. If you watch his game tape..he’s an unbelievable technician at his position…has a very unique kick-step gets him into perfect position in pass pro..and then when he gets his hands on the DE..it’s all over (he actually holds quite a bit..but does it so subtly he rarely gets called for it). It’s pretty amazing to watch DE’s basically give up even trying to rush by midway thru the 2nd quarter.
Even if we get one more year at All-pro level..than a step back from that..well worth it in my mind.
fd: I’m a Badger alum so definitely rooting for JT to get his chance at a ring with the Hawks
That could change if he came here. We like to maul which takes it out of you a little more.
I would wager to guess this is overstated a bit. The run/pass ratios throughout the league and within each game are fairly similar. Because we run the ball a few more times in a game isn’t that substantial.
That’s part of it but also Clevelands offense has been very bad the last 5 years so Thomas isn’t on the field as much. I’d be intetesting in seeing how many snaps he plays f ue to it.
Well technically Cleveland’s defense hasn’t been any better the last 5 years, which puts the offense right back on the field haha…
Can’t argue there. If they plan on drafting a QB at 2 though they will need Thomas. Don’t want a rookie worry g about his blindside along g with everything else.
This is the part that could be a big consideration for their F.O., I agree. But they also let their all-pro center (Mack) and guard (Schwartz) go… so I’m not sure just how much it would sway them. You can get lit up just as easily from the inside. Cleve is busy collecting future comp picks to help the long-term rebuild, and getting a high pick for Thomas helps even more. Plus, the pick at 26 can be used by them on a Decker, or Coleman, or Spriggs, etc
They “let” Mack and Schwartz walk because those guys were UFAs (Mack voided his contract) and they got big offers elsewhere. CLE didn’t want to pay what it would take to keep them.
But Thomas is under contract, and for a reasonable amount considering OT salaries around the League. They don’t have to do anything to keep him. Other than not trade him.
Collecting comp picks was/is part of their strategy. They had the cap to keep both and did not. They had the cap to sign elite and they did not. They had the cap to sign great and they did not. They had the cap to sign mid-level and they did not.
I agree they don’t have to trade him but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did. Trading Thomas can accelerate a rebuild. DePodesta is a baseball guy used to selling off assets to build a younger core that can grow and produce in the same window
I never really thought of Okung as a mauler..just kind of ok at everything
That would be a first round pick for basically one year of top tier play then?
Plus $10m a year.
Let’s also not forget the physical style of SEA’s offense — much more demanding than Cleveland’s.
Not that I know the impact that those rookies had on their teams play, but according to Football Outsiders all of those teams mentioned on that list rated higher than Seattle on pass pro. Also, both Cincinnati and Arizona had better run blocking ratings than Seattle, so those teams are mostly doing better with their o-lines than the Seahawks.
This was in reply to Trevor’s post from 7:15, about 1st round o-linemen. My mistake.
It’s hard (for me at least) to judge run blocking ability of OT’s..the DE’s and OLB’s in the league are so athletic..even the best OT’s rarely seem to get a square hit on them (except in goal-line situations). It almost seems the blocking strategy is get them to commit one direction or another and then have the rb react to that.
“No”, and here is why:
The championship window is not the next two, three, or four years. The window is as long as Russell Wilson plays football… probably another TEN years. Just look at NE and their window from 2001 to current; SIX SB appearances, 4-2 record in SIXTEEN YEARS! What are the common denominators?Kraft, Belichick, and Brady. Everyone else has come and gone. Compare that to Allen, Carroll, and Wilson. The similarities are obvious. If it is handled correctly (consistently build through the draft w/ occasional trades & FA signings), the possibilities are endless.
Many of us believe that Russ is not too dissimilar to Brady, generational talents. Do not trade for Joe Thomas. Trust in the scouts and the system that has been established.
BTW / FWIW; Just got back from a week in Canada. While boarding my flight from Buffalo to Atlanta, Rob Ryan and his defensive staff and scouts were on the same flight. Anybody know of any schools near ATL holding their Pro Day? (Bills play @ the Clink this year)
Russell Wilson isn’t the sole factor in winning games. You are ignoring the elite impact of ET, Sherm, Kam, Bennett, Avril and even Wagner and Wright. It is very unlikely that many if any at all of those players are still on the team in 10 years and if they are, they probably aren’t playing very well. Yes you can try to replenish them at talent in the draft but seems that you are failing to see the collection of generational talent that was put together in late rounds (Sherman,Kam) or for cheap (Averil, Bennett) and while it would be nice to see PCJS replicate that success, I think this team was really the benefit of some unique situations (like the best QB for the money in the league) which will be difficult to replicate ever again. It may be years before they can re-draft the best CB in the league in the 5th round.
Earl could be Woodson just retired as a top 5 safety at the age of 38, I could see Sherman on the field until he is like 33 because he has never relied on speed alone. The Hawks will get new d linemen they already have Clark who looks to be a rotational fit. The point us all those guys can be replaced by average or above average players and if Russell continues to be elite the Seahawks will win. The defense wasn’t as dominant this year Russell had to make magic happen a few games
Pick a team with an elite QB. Whether it is GB, Pittsburgh, NE, etc., the players have changed around them over the years, yet they still compete for championships. Unless you believe that the front office will stop bringing in good players?
In fact, there are very few starters left from the team that won the Superbowl and that was only three seasons ago.
Let me respond to your comments. You might be making some assumptions… (difficult to express complete thoughts in a blog).
* I didn’t say, nor did I intend to suggest that RW is the “sole factor”. I fully realize that we have an elite collection of talent, NOW.
*The point I am trying to make is, that it is my opinion that we should not mortgage the future for a two to three year window, but keep the window open with a constant stream of fresh talent to keep the flames of “Always Compete” burning brightly for as long as possible.
*Simply put, if I were GM, I would not trade away #26 for Joe Thomas at this point in his career.
Trade Seahawks’ 2nd and 3rd round picks for Joe Thomas.
Trade back from 26th with Baltimore for 36 and an early fourth rounder.
2nd round – Coleman
3rd round comp – Hargrave
4th round via Bal – Joe Dahl/Glasgow
4th round – Travis Freeney
2016 OL:
Thomas – Coleman – Lewis – Glowinski – Gilliam. Assume the mistake of signing Webb.
Baltimore rarely trades up like that. They are the teams who trade down and give Ruskell a pick he can use on John Carlson, while trading back and getting Ray Rice and someone else in the third round, too.
I like that line a lot. The thought of facing Chandler Jones 2 (maybe 3) times next year with Webb or Ifedi (or another rookie) at RT terrifies me.
Can’t wait to run it right down Chandler Jones throat. He can’t handle the Hawks run game. Check him out vs. Jets. He’s not ready…..lol
People must forget that Sokoli is a freak of an athlete, a 4 sigma “god”.
He’s gotta be in our plans to start at C, for as high as I am on McGovern, he’s not as nearly fast or athletic.
Soke is my boy, I would love to see him get on the field. I am as hopeful as you. Unfortunately a lot of folks on the blog have completely dismissed him. I for one can’t wait to see what they do with him in camp
I’m as bullish on Soko as anyone. But let me ask a question:
What if he turns out to be as bad as NowaK? It’s definitely a possibility (that has nothing to do with his athleticism and everything to do with the fact that he’s never played OL), and let’s not forget he’s never played in an NFL game. Not a single snap.
So what happens if Soko bombs? Who are SEA’s centers then? Lewis and….?
Are you really content to go through an entire NFL season with a JAG like Lewis and nobody else?
See my response on the comment below. Because as it stands- no rookie has taken an NFL snap either. And the college game couldn’t be more different than the pros. Sokoli has been on an NFL franchise, in OUR system, for an entire year. I will take that experience over college snaps any day. If the FO is cool with Lewis and Soke- I will cheer from my guy. Simple as that
All I’m saying is that 4-Soko should be given 1st snap at starter, not draft a C with 26.
We could draft a C later on to compete with him.
I’d rather draft Vernon Butler or T/G hybrid with 26.
If Sokoli is ready, fantastic, if not Lewis can get it done well enough to not be a liability. If they use a draft pick at C, they aren’t going to get a more athletic, harder working, or more tenacious guy.
Two things that seemingly are Becoming accepted fact in his forum:
1. Kelly is a great player, (he’s not. He’s pretty good and not worth a first round pick with the other centers avaliable).
2. LeRaven Clark is worth anything higher than a 3rd rounder. That kid is AWFUL at playing football. He’s a long-term project.
I have watched a lot of their tape, and Kelly likes to get to the second level and it’s pretty often hat he whiffs. I don’t take a center at 26 unless he’s just undeniably dominant. We can find a center in round three. Tackle has to be the pick.
I agree with you about Kelly, I wouldn’t take him in any round, let alone 1st. I STILL insist that we see what we have in Sokoli. Really intrigued by what he can do as a center.
What if Soko turns out to be as bad as NowaK?
Who are SEA’s centers then? Lewis and….?
Are you really content to go through an entire NFL season with a JAG like Lewis and nobody else?
WAY too speculative. “So you are saying that we are going with overpaid Matt Flynn, Tarvaris Jackson and a rookie QB who is 5’10”??” Yeah those “what if” arguments about guys who haven’t even played significantly are unsound. Let the guys have a camp. If the FO is confident going in to camp with Lewis and Soke- shouldn’t that tell us all something? People are way too down on guys like Soke and the other developmental guys and way too high on unproven rookies. If we aren’t getting Kelly or Martin- I think at best it would be a lateral move.
Yes, Clark is awful at football now… but when you imagine the ideal frame of an OT, you have Clark. He is the ultimate risk/reward… though I admit, he might just be too big of a risk for me to stomach.
College production has to count for something and you don’t take a risk like that early in the draft. If someone wants to take in in the top 100 picks that’s their problem. He played in a primarily passing offense and he has really poor pass blocking technique. He’s had plenty of practice.
I agree. To me, he has bust written all over him.
And it’s not like he blew up the combine. He ran like 5.2 40 he did 18 reps on the bench and then he quit.
I feel like we should definitely make a run at Ryan Clady. No one is going to take on the amount of money he’s currently owed and he doesn’t intend to restructure, so he’ll probably end up getting cut and that’d help us with the comp pick system. We could offer him a decent amount of money and all of our competitors for him already signed their LTs (Denver, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville).
Plus we can offer two things they cannot: we are a legit Super Bowl contender and he can play his natural position at LT. Assuming that his medical is good, how does he not take a 1 year $7 million dollar deal. Anyone else agree?
I’d be ok with a one year Clady “rental”..as i mentioned before..we’ll probably be seeing Chandler Jones three times next year…I’d trust Gilliam to handle that challenge at RT…but not any of the other scenarios I’ve seen proposed (Webb, rookie, etc).
After signing all their own free agents they have like Lane, Kearse, Morgan, Michael, Rubin, etc., do they still have $7 millions left to sign a free agent?
Assuming SEA unloads Lynch the proper way, they’d have enough cap space for Clady or a pass rusher.
Here’s an odd workout from a pro-day: Arturo Uzdavinis, 6-4, 316 lb OT out of Tulane, had a vertical jump of 35 in and 9 foot 9 broad jump, which both would have been tops for the OL at the combine. But then he had a 5.31 forty, 4.87 ss and 7.97 tc… which weren’t that good.
Even though I think Drafttek.com is very inaccurate, it’s fun to look at their projections. Latest has us taking Conklin, Ifedi in R2, and Garnett in R3. That would be exciting.
fwiw..just went back and did a quick scan of the #6 and #7 OT’s taken in the draft going back to 2010 (total of 12 players)..and I see only one that has made a Pro Bowl (Zane Beadles in 2012 as a replacement)..
We are back to our favorite topic, how do we save the team from the damages inflicted by this horrendous OL?
Since no other topic here gets the enthusiastic response that the OL gets, I guess we’ll keep this up for the next 5 weeks.
The idea now is – The Seahawks will trade their 1st round pick for the right to pay 10M a year for a great LT?
Yes, Thomas has at least a year or two of great play but why on earth do we think that the FO that let so many players go rather then offer a high 2nd contract, and has the whole OL cap at under 9M, is interested in such a move? Why do we keep ignoring the facts and the clear statements (JS – “No big names”…)?
We will not pay big for the OL. As a direct result we can keep on the roster 5 players commanding 10M+ APY contracts (RW, Thomas, Wags, Graham, Sherman). We can add 4 more players commanding 7M+ APY contracts (K.J., Avril, Bennett, Kam). I believe it’s called a strategy. It may be the wrong strategy but it is what our FO believes in.
We are run first team. You keep pointing to poor pass-pro and count sacks and the JSPC sees the 5th best run blocking OL per F.O.. They did it with Britt, Sweezy, Lewis and they trust TC to do it again and again. The first half of the 2015 season was a direct result of two gross errors – Nowak at Center and finalizing the OL two weeks before the season. As far as the FO, once those errors were fixed, everything was fine. We ended up 4th in the NFL at scoring and yards behind that OL, and we should do just fine next year if we avoid similar mistakes.
Someone here pointed out that the 2nd half stats were the results of soft schedule and weaker competition. Others point to the struggles of the OL interior against the likes of Short, Donald and Campbell. The eye test confirms those struggles just like it confirms that every OL in the NFL struggles against those guys. However, the concept that those struggles are the main cause to our 1-5 record against those team is plain wrong.
In those 6 games we scored – 31, 23, 32, 17, 36, 24 points. That’s 27.1 points a game, better then our 26.2 points season average (4th in the NFL). Whatever the adverse effects caused by our interior OL facing top competition are, inability to score points is not one of them. We had the lead in the 4th quarter in most of those loses and failed to hold to it on defense. None of those teams went on to win the SB in spite of those very talented players. They did not lose to teams that were able to counter Short or Campball or Donald with outstanding interior O-liners. ARI lost when CAR held them to 15 points in the NFCCG and CAR lost when DEN held them to 10 points in the SB. As much as I understand the value of a stout interior OL, fielding a killer defense seems to solve that problem rather nicely.
In the past 3 years, all 6 teams reaching the SB did that behind mediocre OL. If you look at the last 3 SB champions, their latest big FA moves did not include blockbuster deals for top of the line O-Liners. What you do find is the following:
SB 48 – Seahawks bringing Bennett and Avril.
SB 49 – NE bringing in Revis, Browner, Chung.
SB 50 – DEN bringing Ward, Talib and Ware.
They Seahawks may indeed end up picking OL at 26 and another on day two. On the other hand, do not be shocked if whatever big moves they make in FA or the draft would be directed at a GOAT defense.
The final touch on the way to the SB is a defensive boost.
Sorry if my opinions are not popular but they are what i believe in.
“We are back to our favorite topic, how do we save the team from the damages inflicted by this horrendous OL?
Since no other topic here gets the enthusiastic response that the OL gets, I guess we’ll keep this up for the next 5 weeks.”
Are you complaining about a free Seahawks blog spending considerable time talking about the teams most obvious need?
Sorry, not at all Rob. I am not complaining at all. I actually love those heated discussions.
I totally get it. The OL is “the team’s most obvious need”.
I am here and i have just spent 20 minutes to express my point of view on it in a foreign language (spelling mistakes included…). I guess that makes me a part of it.
I’m not so sure that the FO gets it or plans to address that need with the kind of bold actions we anticipate here.
P.S. – If this is your only comment on it i must have done a bang up job with my evaluation. (Joking)
GREAT post, Eran!
Eran I think the posts on the OL are because that is what people want to discuss as is evidence from the # of posts and responses. Is that not the point of a blog to create discussion?
I agree that a dominating defense has been the key to the Hawks success and will continue to be. I have been arguing that if we stay at #26 I prefer and impact defender if there is one on the board.
We do not need a top 10 OL but we at least need a functioning OL that will not get Russ killed and let us run the ball. There were several games last year including the playoff game against Carolina where that was just not the case.
We allocate a far greater majority of our cap space to defense and for good reason. I just think if we want to get back to another SB we cannot do it with the worst OL in the NFL.
I’m with you, Trevor. Up until recently I thought it would be completely foolish to use #26 on anything other than the best OL available. Now I think that if “the guy” on defense, especially the defensive line, falls to #26 that should be the choice. It’s a tough sell for many considering that our DL depth and talent actually looks pretty decent right now, and is a much stronger group than our OL. For me the guy would be Johnathan Bullard.
Assuming Kam comes back committed and focused our secondary looks solid enough to put the rough first half of 2015 behind them and get back to dominating week in and week out. Shead and Lane coming into their own, Burley looking pretty solid, and the potential development of guys like Simon, Smith, SJB, and Seisay… Perhaps I’m being overly optimistic, but I think that with the continued development of Frank Clark that getting a guy like Bullard could put our defense back to near the level of the 2013 team.
Our OL does need to improve. It would be very difficult to make a SB run if they don’t. While we would likely miss out on the top tackle candidates by not choosing one at #26, there’s no reason to think that we couldn’t improve the OL by picking up guys in rounds 2,3, and beyond. There will be quality OL that are taken at #56 or later.
“There will be quality OL that are taken at #56 or later.”
True, but none are likely to be an OT. If SEA want to draft an OT that has a chance at starting this year, they’ll need to use their R1 pick or miss out on the talent pool.
I agree that this year we have ample OT talent still available at 26 and a big drop in talent before 56.
However, “none are likely to be an OT”???
You can get an UDFA OT 6’5″ 305 lbs
40 Yard Dash – 5.03
10 Yard Split – 1.68
Broad Jump – 9’5″
Vertical – 35″
He could be a very solid RT after a year under Tom Cable and a leading candidate for LT in his 3rd year.
Are you telling me that can’t happen?
Are you telling me your draft strategy for OTs is to hope for a late round lighting strike?
The three times we went to the SB we had right tackles that were drafted in the 3rd round (Sean Locklear) 5th round (Giacomini) and someone who should have been a day 3 pick (Britt).
There’s no question we need to improve quality and depth at the tackle position but there are ways to do it outside of first round draft picks, it’s just obviously harder to do and requires a little luck.
No, I am reminding you of Gary Gilliam stats.
Last year we had 2 UDFAs at RT and C and a 6th rounder at RG.
This year we will probably have UDFAs at LT and C, a 4th rounder at RG, we just signed a 7th rounder to be a starter(Webb)…
What in this picture points to success limited to first rounders???
“Last year we had 2 UDFAs at RT and C and a 6th rounder at RG.”
Precisely. That line was bad enough to cost them games last year, and be the focal point of their offseason going forward. I mean, would we be having this discussion if a line of 2 UDFAs and a R6 RG worked?
Gilliam is the only late/UDFA OT that has worked out. Bailey? Bowie? Busts.
Sure SEA can take the same approach and wait for a late OT prospect. But the same approach is more likely to yield the same results – busts. Or, they can use their first pick and take one of the 7 top OTs that are graded R1/R2. After those 7 are gone, it’s pretty much a crapshoot.
Crapshooting isn’t a draft strategy.
You have touch the core of my argument here.
“That line was bad enough to cost them games last year, and be the focal point of their off season going forward. I mean, would we be having this discussion if a line of 2 UDFAs and a R6 RG worked?”
Maybe i was not clear enough.
No, IMO the “bad enough line” cost less games than the defense. It is the focal point of their off season here. I do not think it is the focal point of the Seahawks FO. It is one of the areas they would/should want to improve. Making sure that TEs wont be catching those winning winning TDs in the 4th is also a focal point.
There are many types of “we” here discussing it.I belong to the “we” that do not see the OL is the rout of all evil last year especially in the 2nd half. I am also a proud member of another “we” group that firmly believes that better defense is the key to winning the next SB. I even think that if this defense does not allow CAR to blow into the endzone in 3 running plays, RW doesn’t desperately try to get that pass to Lynch, the ball is not intercepted, etc. etc. etc.
I believe that you win football games with defense and running game. There is a small “we” group that believes that. That group has other focal points.
“I do not think it is the focal point of the Seahawks FO.”
Then you’re ignoring the obvious:
Pete Carroll speaking about the OL on 1/18/2016 (the day after losing in the Divisional Round to CAR):
“…we can’t start and go through that again. We don’t want to have to experience that if we can avoid it. I think that’s a real area of focus again.”
”I don’t think we’ve nailed it yet. ‘I think this needs to be a really competitive spot again, and we’re going to work really hard to build it up. For the course of the season, we weren’t consistent enough.”
That’s straight from the FO.
Then there’s the media:
“Seahawks’ Offseason Priorities Begin With Offensive Line:
This offseason…There is no overarching, glaring need for a team that has reached at least the divisional round of the NFC playoffs in four straight seasons and played in Super Bowls twice during that span, with one exception. Pete Carroll acknowledged questions on the offensive line need to be answered before next season.”
–Tim Booth, AP Sports
“Time for Seahawks to make O-line a top priority, not an afterthought:
All you had to do was listen to Pete Carroll’s exit interview with the media Monday to realize that the offensive line will rightly be a huge priority in the offseason.”
–Larry Stone, Seattle Times Columnist
“Offensive line will be offseason priority for Seattle Seahawks:
‘I think that’s a real area of focus again, so we’ll be talking about it,’ Carroll said. ‘We’ve got a couple unrestricted guys there; we’re going to have to deal with how that’s going to work out. There’s just stuff we’re going to have to work through…It’s a really important area for us of course.’
[P]
Seahawks general manager John Schneider agreed during an interview on KJR 950 Seattle on Friday that the line will remain an issue in the weeks and months ahead.
[P]
‘I would say that,’ Schneider said. ‘We talk about every position and I joke about going to bed thinking about that all the time, but that’s true. If I said it wasn’t, I’d be lying to you..'”
–Kirk Larrabee, 247Sports
I think the focus should be on drafting the best OL available, not necessarily someone who projects to be a tackle, center, etc. We don’t need to draft a week 1 starter at tackle to improve the quality of the line. Britt was a disaster last year, Sweezy was below average, and Drew Nowak was well… I’m really not sure how the team can defend that decision. I’m just hoping they learn from the mistake and aren’t so stubborn about things next time around. There is plenty of room for improvement.
IMHO there will be better lineman than Britt or Sweezy available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the draft. And Rob has discussed the idea of building the line from the inside out like in NO or Carolina, as opposed to the traditional notion of having your 2 best OL being the tackles. That can certainly be done in this draft without using #26 on an OL.
I was strong in my belief that it was important to bring back Okung. Trading for Thomas would accomplish many of the same goals: allow focus on improving interior OL, allow Gilliam another year to develop at RT, and improve pass blocking. I thought a modest 1-year prove it deal made great sense for both player and team.
But, the decision to pass on Okung at a very reasonable one-year deal has made it clear that the Seattle FO had another plan in mind. They are a run-first team. Forget about copying New Orleans, they are going to copy Seattle. They have their LT (Gilliam), their RG (Glowinski) and their C (Sokoli) already on the roster. If they see Webb and Britt as capable run blockers, then they may be set. They need OL depth. I could see them drafting 2-3 OL again this year but I am no longer certain that they will go OL in the 1st.
They have needs in defense and many starters are getting old. We need DL, LB and S depth as much as OL depth.
The Seattle philosophy is to win with a great defense, a run-first offense and efficient passing. That philosophy hasn’t changed.
One thing we haven’t talked about is their decision to leave Lynch on the books until June 1. They clearly have something in mind via trade that will require that extra cap space this year: Could it be Joe Thomas? Possibly. But it could also very easily be a DL. Wilkerson comes to mind. Who are the others?
Wilkerson would be awesome. But it’s hard to imagine him signing a team-favorable extension as part of a trade. Next year will be his first bite at the apple and the Vernon etc deals, Wilkerson and Von Miller must be salivating at what they can pull down.
Maybe it’s one of the leftover veteran type guys who might still have something in the tank – a rotational guy so Bennett slides inside for a NASCAR package on pass rush downs.
Dwight Freeney? Or a street FA that could shake loose in the near future like Cameron Wake?
Re Lynch:
If the Seahawks want to spread the 5M over 2 years, all they need to do was cut Lynch now and designate him as a post June 1st cut. You do not have to wait till June to actually do it.
The delay with Lynch is a game he is playing with the FO.
Lynch kinda resigned but not formally resigned. If the team cuts him now he becomes a FA with all the rights of a FA. I.E., if he gets a phone call from the Raiders begging him to be the face of the franchise he can decide to finish his career with OAK.
The Seahawks are ready to let Lynch retire and not demand any of his outstanding signing bonus but they will not be made fools. If he wants to retire, he should retire. They are not going to cut him right now.
SEA can’t afford Mo’s franchise tag number for 2016, let alone the $17M APY he’ll be looking for in his next contract.
The first half of the 2015 season was a direct result of two gross errors – Nowak at Center and finalizing the OL two weeks before the season.
I would submit that the Cary Williams experiment was at the very least equally as bad and quite possibly worse than the Nowak experiment.
It would seem that PC/JS would rather deal with the Donald’s and Short’s of the league by fielding an offense that can run the ball right down their throats as opposed to searching for the needle in the haystack offensive lineman who can consistently and effectively pass block against them.
My comment was regarding OL difficulties in 2015.
IMO we lost the season because of the defense. Williams was a big part of it and not having Thomas(injury) and Kam(hold out) all of training camp was another big part of it.
I know they ended 1st in the NFL in points allowed but they failed to hold the lead in 4 of our 5 loses. When you look at how they performed in loses or against the top competition you will find out they allowed CIN, RAMS (twice), ARI, PIT, GB to score more than their season average.
Football is a team sport, some would say the ultimate team sport. The loses you point out cannot be blamed on any 1 unit or player. If the offense had done their part by even just getting a couple first downs, let alone putting some points on the board, then the opposition wouldn’t have had time to get another score.
Yes, its a team sport. The offense could have held the ball and scored more and won the game. That is indeed the team JSPC told us they are building – a team that wins on the back of their high paid offense.
It is not.
9 teams won against the RAMS. They all did it by holding the RAMS to 18 points or lower. Our defense failed to do that….TWICE.
Per your comment, if the offense scored more than 31 points in the season opener we would win it.
Mark that lose on the offense.
That offense also further failed us by scoring just 24 points against the CIN, 23 vs CAR and 32 points at home against ARI. When did we become a team whose defense can’t win with that kind of scoring.
When you decide it’s the OL….the facts do not matter.
The Seahawks offense gave the Rams seven points on a turnover touchdown that set the tone for that week 16 game.
The Seahawks defense led the NFL in scoring for the fourth year in a row in 2015.
They did all of that. The offense had a horrible day in that game. The defense did lead the NFL in scoring.
But something was off with that defense. They are too good to not be “good” but they were not great. The defense won games for us when the offense was struggling. I know it all.
I still can’t look at those 6 loses last year without seeing the defense being at least an equal partner in the blame sharing.
If you can agree to it than the discussion is open. I believe that 1-2 quality additions to the defense will make it as dominating as the 2013 unit or DEN’s unit last year. I do not believe any of us can say the same about 1-2 talented players in the OL.
If the choice is between a solid OL and a GOAT defense – the first will make this team fun to watch, the 2nd brings home a Lombardy.
I know it’s not a popular opinion but…
I agree the defense had an off year compared to their usual standards. But I’d also say there are clear and obvious reasons for that:
Kam’s holdout
The Cary William’s project
Some bizarre games where the defense won the turnover battle and still, somehow, lost
The missing production from McDonald/Hill in 2013/2014
Despite all of this they still had the talent, ideas, scheme and philosophy to once again lead the NFL in scoring defense.
It wasn’t a lack of talent that was the issue. They have several (more than most teams) bonafide stars, including pass rushers. Kam hopefully doesn’t holdout in 2016. Cary Williams is long gone and they’ve re-signed Jeremy Lane. The turnover stuff was a complete mystery. They will hopefully recover the Hill production — but this is admittedly an area they can improve.
Fix these areas — and they’re all achievable without major draft stock (i.e. round one) — and the defense can be the best in the league again.
Now let’s consider the issues on the O-line. It was a clear talent issue. And they’ve lost their two most experienced and arguably best linemen in free agency.
The choice isn’t a solid OL and a GOAT defense. It’s about what you’re priorities are and how do you make this a balanced, winning team.
The Seahawks can play great defense with their existing players. They can’t play great offense if you pay lip service to the O-line having lost two key starters. And that is significant.
You fail to mention in your argument that the Hawks traded for Marshawn Lynch. He was the identity of the team for the SB run. Also the Broncos added Payton Manning the same year as Ward, Ware and Talib. You need an offense to win an SB as well.
I have played and coached for a long time. None of my really good teams were weak on the lines. None of my mediocre teams have ever had great line play. Athletes have come and gone, but the level of line play has usually dictated our seasons. Russell Wilson is a god send, but he can’t do it alone. No more beast mode, so we won’t have that luxury anymore. Build a solid line, and the rest will fall into place.
I never played or coached football. Everything you say makes perfect sense as far as the offense is concerned.
How did your teams do on defense? how good was your record when you had a really dominating great defense?
Like I said, the line(s). And over simplifying works both ways. You can’t have a leaking sieve for a line and expect to attain high levels of success. Last year, I feel like we had that going on for much of the season, and it resurfaced in Carolina. That cost us the first half of that game. Sweezy was a turnstile, so was Britt. They were both pathetic in pass protection. They were decent run blockers, but let’s not make them out to be road graters. They weren’t/aren’t.
Did you miss the last 4 NFL seasons?
Man man man….. I see pros and cons to this scenario. How much value do you place on having Joe Thomas in the locker room and on the practice field with these young rookie linemen that we plan on drafting? How much will having a Joe Thomas accelerate their learning process. I think exponentially! And vice versa I think we could draft a potential pro bowler at 26!
Agree completely. He is the ultimate Pro. How many players would have continued to play at an All Pro level and never miss even one game in 9 years playing for a dumpster fire like the Browns.
I think a trade to the Hawks would invigorate Thomas and give him at least 3 more good years. It would be like having a crappy job and having to get up a 5 every morning then coming home to a crummy house and mean ugly wife. Then one morning you wake up and have a great job, nice house and beautiful loving wife. I know I would be a whole lot more excited to go to work everyday.
The chance to win an SB with his pedigree has to be a huge motivating factor.
Joe Thomas is sooooo good that even if he starts to diminish in 2 or 3 years he would still be better than Okung by a long shot. Joe Thomas at 85 or 90% still makes him a top 5 LT in the game.
If that were true, Cleveland would have had a great OL the last several years. They have spent a lot of draft capital the last 3-4 years in one first round and two second round pick. This is with already having two all pro’s in Joe Thomas and Alex Mack. By the way, they both were first round picks.
The Seahawks had a better OL than Cleveland last season despite the fact that the Browns had three first round picks and two second round picks on their team.
How did the Hawks have a better OL than the Browns? What metrics are you using to determine this?
What Rob was using, Football Outsiders.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Those look like run blocking grades?
PFF had Cle rated 5th overal and Seattle 30th.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/
By the way Joe Thomas was their top rated lineman in the entire NFL.
And what did having the top rated lineman do for Cleveland last season? You notice that only four of their top ten teams made the playoffs? The Broncos were 20th.
The left side is run blocking, the right side is pass blocking.
Sp joe Thomas doesn’t have anything to do with alex mack and Mitchell Schwartz reaching pro bowl level with their play. I disagree.
Let me ask you? Has spending so much draft capital and resources on the offensive line helped Cleveland? Dallas?
Yards gained (rushing and passing combined):
CLE – 5311yds
SEA – 6058yds
Points scored (offensive only – passing and rushing):
CLE – 25TDs and 28 FGs
SEA – 44TDs and 29 FGs
What about those metrics?
Guys I can’t believe we are even having this argument. We have Russell Wilson. Give us the Browns QB and the stats are probably reversed.
Exactly. Joe Thomas won’t make a JAG QB better.
And Russell Wilson doesn’t need Joe Thomas to be great.
Oversimplification. What QB or RBs (or WRs for that matter) did Cleveland have last year? That makes a tremendous difference in how the performance of an OL is graded. Seattle has the QB, RB and WRs. And for what it’s worth, Cleve was thought to have a tremendous line just two years ago
And two years ago Cleveland finished out of the playoffs. Just saying.
I responded to your claim. Way to shift the focus of the debate
No it is not. If you responded to me, then what I was talking about was the focus. Why do you not trust what John and Pete are doing? Do all of you think they are stupid or do not know what they are doing?
Some people that are Seahawks fans believe winning a Superbowl is a right instead of just how hard it really is.
Correct.
We had a 22M QB and a 12M RB, they had expensive O-Liners.
Is that an argument for a new pricey LT?
A 12m RB we traded for.
One scary thing to consider we play Robert Quinn and Chandler Jones a minimum of twice each next year and our OTs are Gilliam and Webb. I know Russ is a magician but we better keep a TE and Rb in blocking or it could be very ugly.
I say this but really and truly hope Gilliam can be a quality tackle. He really did improve a lot last year and does seem to have the length and athleticism. Would definitely prefer to see Webb at guard though.
Neither of them could beat Gilliam with speed rush have some faith in the kid the last few weeks of the season he was rated #1 in pass pro
That is a great point. We will need to face Robert Quinn and Chandler Jones plus Donald twice next year. They will pose a formidable challenge and would probably wrack havoc on our OL. Those games will not be easy to watch.
However, as you probably know, the Rams and their formidable DL won only 7 games last year. Two of them against us.
A quick look at the Rams score card last year will give you an answer:
The 2015 Rams won every game last year when they were able to score more than 18 points!!!!
9 teams were able to keep them to 18 points or lower and won.
Now, maybe, if we could somehow field a defense that can hold the mighty RAMS to 18 points or lower, we could have won a game or two against them.
Are we just a quality player or two away from an OL that will render Jones, quin and Donald helpless or are we just a quality player or two from a defense that can hold the RAMS under 18 points???
” from a defense that can hold the RAMS under 18 points”
Check. Rams just announced Case Keenum will be their Week 1 starter.
No one is arguing that dominating defense is not important. In fact I agree it is the key to the Hawks success! I agree with you Eran.
That does not however mean we have to have one of the worst OLs in the NFL and our pro bowl QB running for his life half the game.
Per Redskins official website, McCloughan says he would like 12 picks in this year’s draft. He currently has eight. We know he values late round picks as well.
http://www.redskins.com/news-and-events/article-1/Scot-McCloughan-%E2%80%98I-Want-12%E2%80%99-Draft-Picks/09c3a7de-3af1-4649-9c66-f4c21a63718e
So we have at least one potential trade partner willing again this year if we need to move up!
Trading from our native spot (26) to theirs (21) in any given round would get us ahead of Texans, Vikings, Bengals, Steelers. Here are their biggest team needs as far as I can gather from several sources:
– Texans: WR, C, TE, DE
– Vikings: WR, RB, P
– Bengals: WR, DT, C, LB, DE
– Steelers: CB, S, DT, LB, WR
Needs converge at WR, C, and DT. Who knows exactly how the draft will fall, but it is more likely to include those positions earlier rather than later on in the draft. So if the Seahawks are looking for a C or DT in R1-4, it might be worth it to make this small jump ahead of those teams depending on what they have drafted already in order to get the player we want.
(Just in case anyone wants to look into team needs, here are some sites I found useful for this and used to come up with the list above. If you know of any other good ones please let me know.)
– WalterFootball: http://walterfootball.com/offseason.php (by far the most helpful and up to date)
– Drafttek: http://www.drafttek.com/teamneeds2016.asp (you have to add in FA moves on your own)
– SB Nation: http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2016/2/15/10899032/mock-nfl-draft-database-2016-tendencies-experts (take it for what it’s worth for positional focus)
– Confirm the above with the most recent mock drafts by informed writers. (like Rob’s… =)
I don’t buy into the argument that the team won’t invest into an expensive OL player. You could have said the same thing about TE up until the Jimmy Graham happened.
The only real fact is that the team doesn’t invest big money into players that aren’t worth it. Or, to put it another way, they’ll spend big to acquire/retain special players. Okung isn’t special and I’m sure that the FO believed that a rookie or a Gilliam could come in and do just as well at a fraction of the cost.
Joe Thomas on the other hand qualifies as a special talent. He’s every bit as unique as harvin, graham, wilson, sherman, wagner etc. No one can argue that the OL would be a good deal better with Thomas on the left side. No player on the team or rookie is coming in and playing anywhere close to Thomas’s level over the next 2-3 years.
Is there an injury risk? I suppose, but there’s no evidence of it. The dude’s started every game of his career and there’s evidence of LT playing at a high level into their mid-30s.
It really all comes down to money. His salary is actually pretty reasonable for what he is. It’s just a matter of making it work under the cap. If Seattle had 15m in cap space right now I’m confident the team would be first in line to get Thomas. Unfortunately, we’re not that far under the cap.
Completely agree with this. Thomas is a special and proven talent at a premium position. Using a first round pick in a trade is completely consistent with what JS has done in the past. And if it comes down to having the cap space, I expect it’s close enough to make it work.
For all those arguments about the quality of offensive lines and team records (Rams, Browns above) there are many ways to put together a winning team. As an example, the all-HOF left side of the Seattle offensive line led their way to the team’s first SB.
Regardless, PC will want to field the best team possible, maximizing the effectiveness of every position group. Having a better offensive line makes the team better, and having better offensive linemen makes the offensive line better.
So it comes down to cost and to opportunity. Because we don’t know all the variables, it’s impossible for us to gauge precisely what might tip the balance one way or another. But so many things have to line up for such a trade, I put the odds at ~20% of it coming to pass. In other words, well within the realm of possibility, but far short of probable, IMO.
Id rather draft OL than get Thomas & build it into a long/mid term strength of the team over the next few years.
If using cap room, I’d rather invest on the other side of the ball specifically getting a difference maker on the DL.
If the Hawks had a top ten pick this year..then I would agree..go grab your “franchise” OT. Unfortunately we draft 26..which means we’re looking at the #6 or #7 OT (at best) in what is considered a very mediocre tackle class. Would love to see two or three interior linemen picked in the first five picks or so…but I can’t get on board with using #26 for a tackle project.
This is a very important point. Late first is generally good for an RT, but not top talented LTs.
Yet you can get quality interior linemen throughout the draft. Using a first round pick to trade for the top LT in the league would allow the draft to focus where it’s much stronger for the Hawks, using later picks for interior linemen after solidifying the two tackle positions.
Completely off topic but after watching a bunch of tape this weekend the most over rated player in the draft is Ashawn Robinson IMO. The looks the part but I don’t see anything special. For me he is a mid-round run stuffer. I keep seeing him in the top 20 and it makes no sense to me. I hope he does because that means another player falls to us.
Agree Trevor. I watched a lot of tape this weekend, too, and a player I came away very bullish on was Sheldon Day. He is a fantastic DL. The Seahawks should definitely consider him with their 2nd round pick. And I feel like I heard that the Seahawks scouted ND quite a lot this past year. His versatility and tenaciousness seem like a natural fit for us.
Big fan of Day. Think he could step in as an inside pass rusher, and make an impact. Hill is on his final year of his rookie deal, and cannot be trusted to stay healthy. Day could be the player we wanted Hill to become. 5-6 sacks a year as a rotational PR is what we missed last season. I feel confident that Day could fill that void of consistent inside pressure.
Matt, glad to hear I’m not alone. I feel the same. He could push Hill for starting time, while also giving us flexibility when it comes to Hill’s future.
I like him a lot as well but I think the Cowboys will take him in Rd #2 as Marinelli really seemed to like him at the Senior Bowl.
Then in that case I think we go with BPA left at DL position. Be that Bullard, Tapper, Butler etc.
I’m not sure OL is as much a priority for PCJS as it is to us. It is plausible that we don’t draft OL until round or even day three.
We paid Webb low end starter money and most seem to think its as a tackle. Regardless of how we feel, the FO must think relatively highly of him. This team grades based on what they have on the roster, and in their minds its plausible they think they already have functional starters at tackle with Gilliam and Webb.
That leaves holes on the interior, where it is also likely they think they have functional starters at RG (Glow), and competition depth at center (Lewis, Soko) and LG (Britt and Poole). Of course if the right player falls they will pull the trigger, but if better value is available at other positions I don’t think they will force OL.
Point being I’m not sure OL is going to be as much of a priority as we think. I could see another 2014 with an OL on day two, another in the sixth and udfa.
Seattle paid starter money to Williams to start at CB so I wouldn’t bank on Webb completely being a starter.
The amount of guaranteed money they gave to Webb indicates they think of him as a starter. Then again, the money they gave to Flynn indicated the same thing.
Webb will start unless someone beats him out. And he’s most likely to start at RT, even if SEA draft someone like Ifedi.
Williams was the starter. We certainly didn’t draft a cb in round one. He lost the job midseason to someone who was already on the roster.
I think you make a good point J. it’s easy to forget that even with a guy like Britt..who we’ve all seemed to write-off the roster..was the starting RT on a team that came within one yard of winning the SB (still painful to write that). Maybe the plan is to open camp with Gilliam/Webb/Lewis/Glo/Britt as the first team…vet competition from Sowell, Sokoli, Nowak, Poole, etc..throw a couple of rookie/UFA interior linemen into the mix and see who comes out on top. Use that #26 on the defense or maybe trade back.
Britt as a RT was improving steadily during his first year and was coming around when we reached the playoffs.
After 2 bad preseason games he was shifted to LG.
Shifting a 6-6 Tackle with sub 34″ arms to guard is practically turning his length advantage outside into a liability inside.
Yeah..I think they really wanted to get Gilliam on the field also last year to see what they had…
Britt is not a starting caliber OT or G in the NFL if that has not been proved the last 2 years I am not sure what has. The one sure fire way to improve the OL IMO is to not have Britt on it as a starter.
In your opinion. And to be fair most of ours too. But I could see the team wanting to give him one more shot.
Right now the line is line of Gilliam – Britt/Poole – Sokolji – Glowinski – Webb and the FO might be cool with that.
Since we are talking about potential trades, what about Clowney? Given the market price set by Chandler Jones trade as well as his relative under performance and health issues he may be available for a 3rd. If Houston is willing to cut bait, he seems like a risk worth taking given the lack of edge options in this years draft.
I doubt they’d cut bait, they’ve just got him ready to explode.
I think this year is his breakout year.
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#Browns Sashi Brown: “Our plan is not to trade Joe Thomas. He’ll be our left tackle”
@TonyGrossi:
2016-03-21 13:31:51 UTC
#Browns EVP on trading LT Joe Thomas: “That’s not our plan at all. Our plan is not to trade Joe Thomas.”
I read this as: Not that we won’t, but it’ll take a ton more than just a 1st.
Agreed…which is a relief. I think trading for him is a mistake, especially at that age and that price.
And why shouldn’t Cleveland drive a hard bargain? Thomas is pretty much the one tradeable commodity they have left, they have tons of cap room and as such don’t NEED to make a move, they will likely have a young quarterback that needs protection, and they need several good drafts worth of picks just to get to mediocrity. If I’m Cleveland I set the opening bid at TWO first round picks and don’t settle for anything less than a first and a third.
Random note: The Bucs just sent out that they are weighing options to trade Mike Glennon. I think if I am Schneider and I am already making moves to stay under the cap (like cutting our starting LS), I would seriously consider trading for Glennon. He is a QB with starting experience who has shown flashes of total competency.
He is entering the final year of his contract and he will be due $675k. Compare that to TJack’s likely salary of $1.5m and that’s a nice little savings. If we could get him for a sixth, I would do it. Though, the Bucs might want to hold out for a fourth or fifth in lieu of getting rid of him, as it won’t cost them anything to keep him.
I think they want to trade him for much more than that — to be a starter somewhere. He deserves a chance. I really like Glennon. That’s my guy if I’m Denver.
Agree completely I thought Glennon looked pretty good when he played as has just as much upside as anyone available. Nick Foles could be an option as well I still think back to 27 TDs and 2 Ints with Philly. You have to have some talent to do that in the NFL I don’t care what system you play in.
You are right. He probably will end up going to a place that needs a starter and for a higher pick than the Seahawks would want to part with. He would fit well in Denver.
What do you guys think of the Dansby specualtion? He would not count against the comp picks. Not sure he has anything left in the tank though. Hawks are clearly looking for a vet LB.
We need a guy that can cover TEs!!! As far as I’ve heard, he’s one of the best in the league at that. So I’m very interested and at 34 you may be able to get him at a lesser price. Add to that he’s a veteran leader, and won’t cost a comp. pick, and he just seems like the most logical FA candidate right now for Seattle.
FWIW:
@ScottSBucs: Only two players have at least 1,000 tackles and 30 sacks since 2004: Daryl Smith and Karlos Dansby.
He could have a big impact in the younger linebackers development, too.
Doesn’t fit. He’s a MLB on the downside of his career.
Did he play SLB in Cleveland though?
Carlos Dansby?
I’d be thrilled with Dansby. I know he’s old but he’s still a very effective player. He’d fit in very well for Bruce I think.
Rob or anybody else??? What young tackles across the league might Pete and JS be considering in a trade? We don’t need a Joe Thomas but it would be nice to have a very dependable guy out there.
Ryan Clady’s name is going to get thrown around a lot. But given we just declined a cheap contract for a tackle that can’t stay healthy and yet is very good when he is, seems unlikely they would get Clady who is the embodiment of the exact same situation.
Giacomini could be a trade target but Seahawks may be better off to let him get let go first. We’ll see if that happens.
Not many teams have dependable young tackles, and the ones that do, even if they’re dependably mediocre, aren’t available to be shopped.
Honestly, I wouldn’t trade for a tackle at all. We need to reload the depth, and for that, we need picks in the draft.
@TonyPauline: Justin Zimmer/DL/Ferris St holding private workout for all 32 NFL teams on March 31. Did 41 reps on Mich pro-day https://t.co/zhmYt0Yirp
Montana EDGE Tyrone Holmes is killing his pro day. Dominant production too,
6’3, 254 lbs., 32″ arms, almost 10″ inch hands, 4.62 40, 37″ vert, 7.00 3 cone/L drill, 4.28 SS, 28 BP reps, IDK his 10 yard split however.
2015 stats: 87 tackles, 24 TFL, 18 QB sacks, 3 FF.
Dude has a non-stop motor. Goes hard every single snap.
Just saw that. Arms a tad short for an EDGE, but he’s SPARQ’ed alright.
Yeah they are.
Tested in the 83rd %tile.