Seattle needs a guy who can rush the interior
Nobody should panic if Kawann Short is the best defensive tackle available when the Seahawks are on the clock. He’d be a fine choice with the #25 pick.
The beauty of the Senior Bowl isn’t to sit and read countless differing opinions of the work outs or wax lyrical about performances in the game. It’s about noticing little qualities, taking on board information and then going to back to watch more tape. Which is exactly what I did after watching Short dominate during Saturday’s game.
Sometimes your initial impression can be wrong. It takes that second look to get a more accurate opinion of a player. My lasting impression during the 2012 season was an image of Kawann Short taking plays off against Ohio State. I’d read other people voice such concerns going into the game, and there it was on the tape. I watched further games and picked up on the occasional play where he’d engage and take a block without showing any real effort to progress. Whether he was gassed or whatever, he wasn’t playing with maximum effort. That lingered.
Yet I’m watching the Senior Bowl and here’s a guy who’s lost about 10-15lbs, looks refined and not as sloppy in the midriff. So I go back and watch six games (all of which you can see for yourself at the bottom of this article). I was wrong to concentrate too much on those plays taken off and it did cloud my judgement a bit. Crucially, what he does well is exactly what the Seahawks need to add to their defensive line.
At times it was impossible to block him 1v1, he needed a double team. Given the way Seattle’s defensive line operates with a LEO and three technique placed to the exaggerated right, it’s going to be very difficult to double up on Short even at the next level. Not even Sheldon Richardson flashes a comparable ability to get into the backfield.
He generally does a great job getting off blocks using nice hands and flashing great athleticism for his size. He’ll shoot a gap effectively and gets a nice quick burst off the snap. He’s shown decent ability on stunts to skip wide and attack from a different angle. You see the swim, club and spin moves — so he’ll be creative and keep an offensive lineman guessing. When he gets low and drives into his blocker he can flash a solid bull rush. Sometimes he gets too high and loses leverage but this is coachable.
When he was lined up as a three technique by Purdue, he had consistent success. He also played the one technique and nose. He’ll stack and shed at the line of scrimmage, he’s strong enough at the point to be effective against the run. Footwork is an underrated feature among tackles and he doesn’t take many wasted steps, he gets off the line and is moving quickly immediately. He can be crafty, often stopping as if beaten only to counter and explode again to deceive a blocker.
As you can see from the tape below, he’s capable of pursuing elusive quarterbacks to make plays (eg Denard Robinson). Out of all the tape I’ve watched this year, Short clearly had the most tackles for a loss among DT’s.
He’s been voted a team captain two years straight and hasn’t had any notable injuries so far. Apparently he opted not to declare last year after receiving just a third round grade from the draft committee. I highly doubt he’ll last until round three in April.
That’s not to say everything is positive. He looked bigger on tape than he did at the Senior Bowl so conditioning could be a problem. It’s nice to see he got in shape for the NFL scouts and it might not be a problem working within a pro-fitness programme. He looks better with the weight off and seemed to play even quicker.
Short has quite a lean lower body and you’d like to see him get bigger in terms of muscle mass. He’s going to need to drive with his legs and at the moment his top half is considerably bigger than the bottom.
Unlike Sheldon Richardson and Sharrif Floyd, the motor seems to stop running when the play moves away from his part of the field. Richardson almost turns into a linebacker when the play kicks out wide, tracking the ball carrier and often being the one to make the decisive tackle. Short, more often than not, shuts down and doesn’t make that same extra effort.
His ball location could be better at times. It’s not a major issue, but he sometimes makes the initial penetration and reads the play incorrectly — tackling a running back on a quarterback keeper or vice versa. It’s nowhere near as bad as Datone Jones for example, but it could still be an area of improvement.
You’d like to see more of a violent streak. He doesn’t tend to play ‘too nice’ like Sharrif Floyd, but he’s also the consummate pro. Usually that would be a major positive, but this is the three technique position. A little nasty here is generally a good thing.
The other issue is age. He’ll turn 24 this Saturday. In comparison, Floyd isn’t even 21 until late May. The Seahawks took a chance on a 25-year-old rookie in Bruce Irvin last year, but you have to get an impact from a player giving up 2-3 years on other rookies. There’s quite a few ‘older’ rookies this year — Sylvester Williams (25), Star Lotulelei (24), Margus Hunt (26) will all be in their mid-20’s. I suppose it could be worse, they could be Brandon Weeden (29). Upside and room to grow is understandably limited among older players entering the league.
Kawann Short is going to be a solid any-down tackle who offers an interior pass rush in base while maintaining strong run support. You might need to keep an eye on his weight and manage his snaps, but most teams do that with their defensive tackles anyway. In many ways he compares favourably to Randy Starks — a free agent who could be on Seattle’s radar in March. The Seahawks need someone who can play first and second down and collapse the pocket. While Short’s upside isn’t as high as Sharrif Floyd’s and he lacks the ‘born to be a three technique’ nature of Sheldon Richardson, he’s probably the next best fit.
The Seahawks could do a lot worse than draft Short in the first round. Check out the tape below. Tomorrow I’m going to do a piece on a player they could target if they opt to draft a defensive tackle in the middle rounds. If you’re looking for a player who could be the next Geno Atkins, Penn State’s Jordan Hill could be the guy.
Well done rob I love this site
Rob, I wonder if you or any of your readers have a link to a good salary cap analysis for the Seahawks, projecting at least 3 years out. Without understanding where the team really stands, it is difficult to project how many dollars might be available to sign a free agent. We can assume that Seattle will renegotiate Zach Miller’s deal, for they surely won’t pay him $11 mil next year. Obomanu will come off the payroll. Matt Flynn will come off this year or next. But contracts of $8-10 mil/yr, or more, will be due Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas and Russell Okung in a couple of years. Russell Wilson will be due close to $20 mil/yr if he continues his brilliance. Other players like KJ Wright, Kam Chancellor, Brandon Browner, Golden Tate and Doug Baldwin will add millions more to the current payroll. If all these guys get paid, is anything left for free agents? If so, the Seahawks might sign a FA 3 tech or DE, which means a WR will be the target in the first round. If no FA, then the pick will almost certainly be a D lineman.
I don’t think R. Wilson will ask for much more than 10m a year.
His representation will ask for fair market value. A capable and experienced mobile franchise quarterback with great ratings, awards, Pro Bowls, leadership on/off field could easily command more than $20M a year in 3 years. The cap will work its way higher over the next few years as well.
Agreed. It will be in the 17-20 million per year range. Especially if he has success similar to what he’s had over the last few months of this season. It could be even higher.
It won’t be a hometown discount kind of thing. Locking up a franchise QB requires a premium spend. Especially considering how Seattle will have received far more value than the contract he is currently saddled with. Seattle will not want to let him hit the open market. He’ll command much more than Peyton Manning did, as he’ll have 8-9 years of productivity before he’ll be Manning’s age.
Save now. Because he’s going to get paid. It also makes it more imperative that Seattle continue to stock rookie talent because a lot of the fixtures on this team are going to have to walk in order to keep Russell in the fold. It’s a lot easier to get another KJ Wright, Kam Chancellor or Max Unger replacement than it is to get a Wilson.
He’s without a doubt the most valuable Seahawk and the most irreplaceable one. He will require we leverage our drafting skill to keep cheap quality on the roster going forward.
You can see individual contract numbers on the Rotoworld website as a link on each player, I don’t know of any sites that roll up the numbers but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a good one out there.
It appears at this point that one DT from among Sheldon Richardson, Kawann Short, Sylvester Williams and Sharrif Floyd will be available at #25. Picking any one of them would really boost the Seahawks front 4; a quick early look at the film makes me lean toward Floyd at this point. However, after watching Geno Atkins set up camp in the backfield at the Pro Bowl yesterday, I wonder if John and Pete might go for speed at the 3 tech? I believe Geno was considered undersized, around 290, and that is the main reason he fell to the fourth round. But his quickness and aggression have made him the best, now that he has put on 10 lbs of muscle. Datone Jones is the closest thing to Geno this year, and I suspect that John and Pete’s outside-the-box thinking might tap him at #25.
I don’t think we should get caught up in finding the next [insert player name]. Every player has different strengths that will play to different schemes. PCJS won’t look at a player any more because he has a build like Geno Atkins. Run defense aside, they will take the player who is best at getting to the QB.
Good stuff…
I think if I had the choice, I’d actually take Floyd over Richardson. Yes, that seems a bit odd considering I believe Richardson is a top notch 3 Technique. That said, I think Floyd has the ability to play the 1, 3, & 5 at a high level. Add into this the fact that he is 20 years old, and I think you have a no brainer, foundation piece for years to come. The value he provides would be unmatched when it comes to the DL because of his versatility, whilst providing top notch play.
Isnt Richardson maybe a year older? Not significantly older
Guy has great hand work. He’s not quite John Simon at shedding blocks, but he doesn’t usually stay blocked long 1 on 1.
Wow. This kid is the real deal.
He reminds me of a slightly less wide Warren Sapp. Maybe not quite as quick a get off either.
Great stuff Rob…
I, too, really like Kawann Short. The age thing bothers me. I don’t think it’s a deal breaker, but I really don’t like doubling up on 1st rounders who are already mid 20s. Football shelf life is short as it is, that I hate to add an even shorter adjustment period on top of that.
It’s really too bad that Shariff Floyd seems to be getting recognition he deserves. I can’t think of anything better than a productive, versatile 21 year old to build your DLine around. Similar to ET in the secondary (who was super young on draft day), it’s nice to have a really young, talented piece to build around who has not only room to grow, but also time.
All that said, I still think Randy Starks is a must in FA. He’s the perfect candidate to get current production without breaking the bank, whilst allowing for a highly drafted DL, without forcing the issue. As much as I like Short, it would kill me to take him over Hopkins, Ogletree, Ertz, Brown, etc.
My opinion is that a 1st rounder should be spent on a guy who can be a building block for your team. I think it’s a combination of talent, age, production, position. It’s not necessarily a LT or QB, but a guy you know you can count on for a long time, that is productive/important in your system. I think we missed the boat with Irvin on that. And that’s not saying Irvin isn’t/won’t be productive, but he’s in his mid 20s and is more of a niche player. There’s only so many times you can invest premium draft capital into that type of player.
I agree MJ. Another mid 20’s DL just isn’t as alluring to me personally as Ertz, Hopkins, Wheaton, Austin or Patterson… I see what you are saying, and imagine one of these ‘pieces’ matching up with the productivity and focus of Russell Wilson, and that seems like an extremely valuable combo!
Wouldn’t our value in the 1st round be enhanced by pairing that value with our ace in the hole RW?
I know DL / DE is VERY important, but PC/JS can find value there in mid round picks and FA easier I think than Round 1. Unless our favorite Sheldon happened to fall to 25 (not happening)… I just think getting a REAL #1 WR would exponentially increase the value of that R1 pick because now we have the power of RW to link it too!
Did you guys see RW throwing to Larry Fitzgerald? We need a number 1 WR NOW!!!
I like what Short shows, would be nice to see our D linemen actually in the backfield on occasion, but does anyone else see more value in going for a real #1 WR for RW as a better value overall?? (or TE like Ertz)
Hard to watch Wilson throwing to Vincent Jackson and Larry Fitzgerald and not wish for a similar big target in Seattle.
True – but is there really a receiver of that quality in this draft? Definitely not in that size.
I don’t think so, more wishful thinking on my behalf. But I think Ertz can be an effective big target.
I know he is raw, but it just seems Cordarelle Patterson is the first WR off the board…
He, with RW’s drive behind him, might become really good really fast!
We took Stephen Williams a few days back, 6-5, 200, 4.48…
If we added Ertz in R1, then another later WR, we should be shored up.
Brandon Kaufman is 6-4, 214, 4.58… Aaron Dobson 6-2, 205, 4.4…
Any of these and we have a nice receiving corp!
Rice, Tate, Williams, Miller, Ertz, Dobson, Kaufman… something like this and we look good!
just wondering how Stephen Williams gives you any secure thoughts? Big, yes. But nothing else is even that attractive.
True that. Too many people get suckered into looking at size and speed.
No security at all Jon!!!! We have no idea if he will be good, JS was pumped to get him, but thats it… I still want a TE and 2 WR drafted…Period. Don’t care where, just give us something!!! I really see that RW will probably make the right type of guys Great! If they are workers, which I trust PC/JS will seek out, will hopefully form a bond with RW and light it up!!!
I hope Williams and RW start practicing early!! I’m not naive, but wish the best!
Which WR would you prefer??
I saw some video of Stephen Williams that looked superior to the video of Kaufman. Williams appeared to be a much better hands catcher and had a better catching radius. Just more athletic ingeneral as well. I only watched a small sample size though
Just watched the first video of Stephen Williams, and I can say easily, I see why JS was pumped! This might be another sneaky awesome pickup.
Hopefully he and RW have good chemistry and work it up. That would ease our draft a bit too… I hope he pays off.
Re: Building blocks – 3tech is a premium position and I don’t think 24 is too old. You still get his 24-28 y/o seasons before his rookie contract expires. Just my .02 though.
Rob, I love your site! As I said in another of your pieces, I am in no way a big fan on Short. If Richardson, Floyd and Willams are off the board, I would rather adress TE or WR in the 1st round and go for a raw talent with loads of upside in the middle of the draft. Who would you think I should be looking at in the later rounds?
Definitely Jordan Hill from Penn State. Great DT prospect who will go in the middle rounds. I really like Kaleb Ramsey from Boston College IF he can stay healthy. Late round-UDFA type because of health risks. Those are the two I would recommend.
Jordan Hill is impressive. Might be a third round steal.
I was very impressed with Short at the Senior Bowl and it’s also a good sign when he’s taking his weight and overall health seriously. His play should transcribe over to the combine, where he’ll have added a few more pounds of muscle and the extra burst.
Montori Hughes, dismissed from Tennessee for academic purposes….any info on this guy?
Outside of Kawann Short and the DT position, DE is obviously a position of great importance. Looking in the later rounds, I’ve noticed one player who has good size and incredibly long arms in Malliciah Goodman from Clemson. What’s your take on him?
He played well against LSU. Can he be a consistent force at the next level? Is he quick enough, big enough? I’m sceptical. Good later round value, worth a shot. But wouldn’t want to pin any hopes on him translating to the next level.
Rob, will Was moving on to Jacksonville have any influence on which DLs the Hawks might look at in the draft?
Also wondering how Richard Seymour might fit into this DL. He’s pretty versatile and might be a great fit for the line if the price is reasonable. That would allow the Hawks to take a higher ceiling DL in the draft since we wouldn’t necessarily need an impact player from week 1.
I think Seymour’s best days are behind him. I don’t think Wash’s departure will have much lasting impact on the draft. I think they’ll take a good long look at Randy Starks in free agency.
I feel like the age thing can get blown out of proportion at times. I remember when Amobi Okoye came out and was like 19 or 20 and everyone got excited about what he would become with more development. Well, he turned into a backup/rotation player and never panned out. Many guys, especially lineman, have used a redshirt year in college and are 23 yrs old come draft time. Being 24 isn’t that far out of the ordinary. I would be fine with Short. I would rather get Ertz though after addressing DT in FA.
Short’s wingspan has to be 7′. In watching the tape you have above, he looked like he had a nearly perfect body type with kind of stumpy legs for his height and arms for days, but I’m glad he lost some weight. I didn’t get a chance to see him at the Senior Bowl, but playing around 305 should be perfect for him if he wants to play in the 3-tech.
Just found the Jordan Hill v Wisconsin tape. Oh. My. God. Quick off the snap, relentless motor, good leverage, active hands, great penetration and lateral pursuit. AMAZING tackler. Literally nothing gets by him in this game … it is truly beautiful watch him fly around and blow up plays in the backfield. I see that he’s projected Rounds 3-4 lol, and if anyone has watched the tape it can only be because he looks like he’s 6’0-6’1 and 290-300lbs. He doesn’t win a lot of leaning matches, and he got blown up by one of the few double teams he faced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJcbDCuStPs
Hill’s possible lack of strength could be something that would make him available at end of 2, and would be perfectly in line with Seattle’s philosophy of drafting according for his strengths, in spite of his weaknesses. Based on that tape, I could see us taking him end of round 1 because he does what we need him to do so well: penetration and havoc in the backfield while being good against the run. Maybe even a trade back into Round 2 based on his draft day stock? Get him a protein shake and a squat rack and I’d be fine with it.
You mentioned in your previous article that Lotulelei could be a nose, and I really don’t see it in the tape. The size is there, but it seems like a waste as he’s best suited to just penetrate, and there were a bunch of times where he actually kind of blew it against the run. Maybe it’s because he was one-gapping, but it was kind of disappointing to see him let guys run right past him, especially against USC.
Also Rob, did you get a chance to look at that tape of Chris Jones from BGSU? If so, what were your thoughts?
Hill is a very intriguing player and the Wisconsin tape is all the more encouraging because it’s Wisconsin – big, physical lineman that’ll end up in the league.
I’ve watched one BGSU game and have another to get through. I’m reserving judgement on Jones until I’ve watched it.
I re-watched it a couple times and then watched a highlight video of Hill. He looked about 6’2-300 in the highlight video, so maybe it was just the relative size that made him look smaller. Checked around a few places and he’s listed 6’2 295 for what that’s worth.
I think that while their stock is high now after Senior Bowl where the lines steal the show, you are going to see some athletes blow up the combine and maybe 1 or 2 of these DT’s are in reach again. QB’s are also the wildcard with an early first run possible between now and draft day. Maybe they interview well? Blow up Gruden’s QB camp? Who knows. If not, we are positioned alright as a trade partner for the late 1st/early 2nd round run on them.
Rob, not to be picky but when you put video up for us to see could you tell us the number of the player?
A lot of the videos highlight the player in a square. Short is #93.
Short is 93 🙂
Thx
You have to click the “annotations” button to the left of the CC button on the bottom of the player.
Off topic…. Has there been a press conference with Quinn joining the Hawks yet?
Not yet.
If Randy Starks is acquired by Seattle, who do you think would be the first round pick? Would Seattle double up on DT? Or draft a top WR, DE, or OLB?
I vote WR/TE!! Arm up RW so he can look like he did in the pro bowl w peeps like V.Jackson and Fitzgerald…
I suspect in that scenario they either go DE, LB, WR or TE.
I’ll be surprised if a LB isn’t on tap for round 2 or 3.
I would hope they take Ertz if available, or maybe Khaseem Greene/Arthur Brown. I just don’t see a standout WR unless JS see’s something in Patterson or Hunter that I’m not seeing. There will be a stud WR in the second round for us. Personally I think Da’Rick Rodgers is highly overlooked. Jordan Hill looks to be a player we should get though.
I like Hopkins, although I haven’t seen tape on really anyone else. He just looks very consistent and like he could come in and be a solid contributor even year 1. Most other WR’s will take a few years to develop.
Even if they sign Starks, Henry Melton or Desmond Bryant AND bring back a healthy Jason Jones, they will still need to mitigate the risk of Clemons either never coming back or never being the same–they need to find a Leo. I could easily see them signing a D-Line free agent and drafting another in the first round. They could also try to sign Fred Davis for the Joker and look at receivers as well.
True, Clem might not even come back until we are weeks into the season and even then who knows if he will be as effective. Cliff Averill is looking pretty good to me. I haven’t really looked into the DE position yet in the draft or FA. If we can’t land a good DT in FA then maybe we could sign a DE.
CBS has Ansah at 34 on their big board. In their write-up I see this brilliant quote:
Lions coach Jim Schwartz, the South coach at the Senior Bowl, says Ansah isn’t as raw as people think. “Everybody keeps saying that he’s raw but I keep seeing things like instincts and knocking down passes that doesn’t look raw to me,” Schwartz said. “It looks like he has a really good feel for the game.”
How would you define raw, Jim? And how does he still have a job?
All I can say is that I watched the Senior Bowl, and Ansah was one of the few names that I remember from their play. I think he would play well for Seattle… Still want a WR/TE though!
Osi…
I’d welcome Osi w a big smile! …if Starks was there also, even better!
I would think if we address DT through free agency, it will be BPA with our pick. DE is the next biggest need, but do any of the first round candidates fit? LB is also a need, though I don’t think it’s a big enough need to use a first round pick on one. I wouldn’t be surprised to see DT doubled up. Starks is pushing 30 and I wouldn’t put my eggs in the Jaye Howard basket just yet. We’ve seen that when PCJS say they’re going to fix something, they try to load up with as many options as possible.
Nothing would really surprise me with this FO. The only positions I see as nonstarters are QB, RB, LT, C, MLB, and FS.
How about Chris Jones from Bowling Green as a deep sleeper for a pass rushing 3 technique? He was 3rd in the country with 12.5 sacks and seventh in the nation with 19 TFL. Looked Explosive on tape against Miami of Ohio, Also showed a variety of pass rush moves that lead to him being in Zac Dysert’s grill most of the game.
Here’s a link to a highlights video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4fQCKf2SxM. I agree that he looks explosive and very athletic. He seems to have a lot of tools in his “skills bag” and he plays with a high motor. He’s not the greatest physical specimen( 6’1″/293 lbs.) but he looks like he could carry some more weight, but would it affect his exceptional speed and quickness?
Interesting side note, I think I hear Brock Huard’s voice on the tape. I don’t live in the Seattle area, but I wonder if he has had anything to say about him on his radio show.
Just a follow up — Brock announced the Bowling Green vs. Florida game in Sept.2012.
Yeah that is Brock.
Here’s an interesting quote from Vikingsterritory.com re: Chris Jones. Interesting reference to Bruce Irvin.
“Bowling Green defensive tackle Chris Jones is currently flying way under the radar, but what I have seen out of him leads me to believe he could be this year’s Bruce Irvin… by which I mean, yes, he could potentially be surprise first round selection.
Jones stands at 6’ 2” and weighs in at about 302 pounds. He is the type of player that continued to take big steps of progression throughout his college career and does not seem to have peaked, by any means.
This last season he registered 12.5 sacks (third in the nation) and 19 tackles for a loss (ninth). He is very disruptive in the middle of the defensive line and always seems to be creating chaos for opposing quarterbacks.
“For an inside tackle, operating in not so much space, to generate those kinds of numbers, well, that’s a rare guy,” BGSU Head Coach Dave Clawson says. “He’s unblockable at times in practice. If we’re working on pass offense and want to throw deep we take him out. We script it on our practice plan — CJ out. Otherwise, we get nothing accomplished.”
It is hard to find Jones included in any rankings on Draft websites. It is tough to find a scouting report on him. After seeing his tape, however, it’ll be hard to see him slipping much farther than the second round in April.”
Sorry – one final thought. With Jones’ exceptional speed/quickness and his bag of tricks, could he lose, say, 20 lbs. and play LEO?
We need a guy like this more so than a receiver. None of the 1st round guys really strike me as big impact players. We’d be better off solving the DT spot 1st, via FA or draft. Plenty of receivers in the later rounds.
How desperate are we to land Randy Starks? Melton will most likely be back on the Bears roster. If we can’t get better on the D-line do we blitz more next season? I think Quinn has his hands full next year.
I doubt they’ll blitz more given Carroll’s (correct) desire to try and create a pass rush with four. That’s how good teams press. Starks is a crucial target for me in that it allows you to keep multiple options open. If the DTs leave the board early there’s no panic.
What if no Melton, Starks and the DT’s leave early?
Get Jordan Hill, and a TE and WR to score more points!!
There you go.
Rob, what do you think of Reggie Bush being a FA? He won’t cost a super high price, and I wonder if he out of the backfield as a mix up might be an idea?
Y’alls take?
He might cost more than you think. How much would you pay?
Not really a fit either. You’ve got two backs in Lynch and Turbin, and they like having Leon because of his return abilities so…. I don’t see it.
Ummmmmm no!!
Just wanted to see other’s views…he isn’t needed in Seattle anyway…
I can’t see it… think he’ll end up at a place like Cincinnati.
Kawann short is at the top of my first mock. I think that there will be rising interest in the o-linemen and at least one or two teams will panic buy a qb allowing one of the natural 3 techs to fall to seattle. I can’t see them spending a top pick on a WR as long as PC/JS are calling the shots. There was ample growth in golden Tate’s game this year.
Been looking at some WR interviews and tape on Da’Rick Rodgers and Cordarrelle Patterson. Rodgers kind of reminds me of Dez Bryant. You know this kid is tough by the way he plays and talks. It would be nice to have a WR who is aggressive at the line and after the catch. I know about his failed drug test and so on but if there is a team who could take him on it’s us. He seems to have gotten faster and stronger too. He’s 6-3 215. Sorry but Patterson seems like he’s going to be a playboy to me. I would take a bet that in the NFL Rodgers will prove to be the better WR.
Rob, how is Quinton Patton not a first round lock WR?
Only seen a few bits of tape and will eventually get into him, but I’ve not seen a first round skill set so far. I thought mid rounder. But I’m going to look at him closer.
I have to disagree Ray….One healthy season (with Seattle) isn’t enough to remove Rice’s “injury prone” label. We need more quality depth at WR
Go watch tape on the top 5 WR class in the draft……….then go watch Quinton Patton.
The defense is an interior pass rush away from being the very best in the entire league.
If that player is a available you take him. The same can not be said about the need for a wide
out. You are talking about hedging against a possible injury and building depth.
That can be done in the middle rounds or thru a cost effective F/A
You heard it here first. If we get a DT in FA. With the 25th pick in the 2013 NFL draft the Seattle Seahawks select…….Quinton Patton. Then we see JS and PC celebrating.
Not sure what is so special about Quinton Patton to be honest.
?
He is looking to be a 2nd-3rd round pick from what I see…
As much as we appreciate the success of PCJS in the draft, they need to hit big on this years #1. Carpenter might turn out to be a decent player if he can stay healty but has alredy been moved from the orignal position he was drafted for. Irvin, we had our choice of any DE…Irvin was PC”s dream Leo. We can all hope that comes true when Clem retires. Irvin had his coming out party in Atlanta and was less than worthless. He may never be more than a niche player/specialist. That is not a bad thing but not in round 1. Your number one needs to be a foundation piece to your organization. How much different would we feel with Chandler Jones?
Chandler Jones is a 5 technique in a 3-4…. I have no idea how he’d fit playing the LEO, or even DE in a 4-3 but it’s not what Pete and John wanted.
I lived in Massachusetts and watched a lot of Patriots games. This season they mostly lined up in 4-3 with Chandler Jones as DE. He doesn’t have Irvin’s speed but played well with power and techniques. However he had missed several games with injuries, including the playoff game against Baltimore. They could’ve used him in that game.
BTW, the Patriots defense have been more like 4-3 rather than 3-4 in the past two years.
Chandler Jones probably had the best bend around the edge and I liked him better than the other 4-3/3-4 hybrids last year like Ingram, Mercilus, McClellan. Didn’t have that pure speed that Bruce has, but then again I don’t think anyone saw Bruce in the first round. I think Pete saw Bruce as his prototypical LEO, but maybe underestimated his rawness and thought speed would overcome it. Looking less and less likely.
I disagree. Mario Williams had 4.5 sacks his rookie year, and everyone and their mother were proclaiming he wasn’t that good and they should’ve taken Reggie Bush… fast forward 2 years and it’s the exact opposite.
It’s entirely too early to write off Bruce Irvin.
Irvin was facing a LT that only gave up 5 sacks all year… despite the pass heavy offense of the Falcons. There was no interior help and no good pressure from Irvins other side. He was getting chipped and QB could comfortably drift away from Irvin even when he was a bit more successful.
We really cant label Irvins LEO success on this one game. There are plenty games where Clem didnt get any sacks and he was getting more help than Irvin did this game.
Im not an Irvin apologist but I think we need to hold off on these sorts of judgments until we see a bigger sample size and give him some help.
He statistically had a very good rookie year. Be interesting to see if/how he develops
Good stuff. I agree that we can’t judge Irvin on one playoff game against such a good O-lineman with minimal help from DT. I believe Irvin is just about the same weight and height as Clem but doesn’t yet have the experience and technique. My main concern is Irvin holding up against the run.
I judge Irvin based on his play over the whole season. He got some easy sacks in the first 8 games and then faded away in the last 8. It’s no surprise about his performance against Atlanta. He doesn’t have the motor or mean streak to play LEO. He may be useful rushing from behind the line. Overall he has left me disappointed and was certainly not worth a first round pick. If he doesnt improve he will probably be replaced and quietly cut in two years.
Clem had 4.5 of his 11.5 sacks in one game against Green Bay. That means over the course of the rest of the year Irvin had 6 sacks and Clem 7 sacks. Clem had 40 tackiles versus Bruce’s 17 playing nearly twice the snaps. You’re juding Bruce one year? Fact is people are exaggerating Irvin’s weaknesses to suit their own biases.
Irvin did absolutely nothing to show he isn’t a viable Leo candidate.
If he maintains 8 or more sacks a year then he will have been worth it.
Also, I’m not sure what your attitude is about “easy” sacks. He got two against GB, and he chased down Cam Newton once, and then got him again on a play that wasn’t “easy”. The only easy sack he got this year was against AZ, when we blitzed and he stunted inside and was fast enough that he didn’t get blocked at all….
Seems like you are just searching for reasons to dislike him really.
Perhaps your right. My attitude would be different if he wasnt chosen first round and presumably the best player available. I might even hope that he would play every down.
But judging from the press conference PC isn’t happy either and will continue to look for pass rushers. That would include both 3 tec and DE positions.
We can only hope Irvin can develop into the next LEO, but if he can’t, well then we’ll have to be satisfied with him being a specialist.
If we upgrade the 3 tech spot, it will only help him out. I agree with Rob though, if we get 8-12 sacks a year from him, then it was worth the pick.
It’s important to keep in mind that pass rushers generally don’t have a huge impact their rookie year, particularly when you get to pass rushers taken out of the top 10.
While Irvin didn’t light it up, I don’t think that’s a reasonable expectation either.
I’m more concerned about his motor and level of effort than the number of sacks he gets. I at least want teams to be worried about him- and no one is. He could improve in both areas over the off season.
I still don’t see a need to pick anyone in the first round who won’t play every down. If we had picked an every down 3 tec last year we wouldn’t be having this discussion now.
Should be noted that all DT’s taken in the 1st round in 2012 were taken before Seattle picked.
We moved from 12th to 15th and missed out on Fletcher Cox and Brockers. At the time Cox looked like an ideal candidate. Not sure how he has done since. I know he was picked by Philadelphia and I’ve had a lot of respect for their defensive line from the 80s.
Seems a bit of an overreaction on Irvin. He was being asked to do it vs. Atlanta with no help at all. The Falcons are pretty good at not giving up sacks. Gonzo is the best pass protection in the league. (He’s always open.) Irvin’s got everything you need. His game just needs polish. He needs a counter and better hand usage. That’s mostly about reps.
On Clemons… There aren’t ten guys in the NFL who can create pass rush consistently all on their own. Clemons just happens to be one of them. He is a testament to how stunningly mis-utilized some players are, and how assessing talent is SOOOOOO scheme-specific.
Does anybody know if the combine is going to be on television?
It’ll be on the NFL Network and online at NFL.com.
Thanks
I seriously can’t wait for draft day! Might even fly to Seattle and go to the draft party there!
Rob, are you actually living in Seattle?
Just want the inside scoop on where to go…
I’m in Europe… UK to be exact.
Really? Sweet brother… How did you become such huge Seahawks fan? Are you American, or British? (I imagine a transplant there…)
Did you ever live in Seattle? Just curious…I really want to visit the place, never been yet…
I’m originally from the UK but moved out to live in Vancouver a few years ago. Always had a strong interest in the NFL but no reason to follow one specific team. While living in Canada I spent a weekend in Seattle, went to a game and knew the minute I walked into the stadium that the Seahawks were the team for me. Hooked ever since.
That’s a cool story Rob! Thanks for the background…definitely am glad you followed your passion, because I like this site a lot, and have even learnt a ton from it! Thanks for that!
Cheers
1995 Macpherson (49’er) defensive front seven. Pete is aiming to finaly get to run it, stock it and coach it. Quinn, Norton and Pete come from that defensive style and the addition of a DL coach schooled in it seems likely. Need to do a little comparitive player analysis of us vs. then to get a feel for where the FO might proceed.
Pete said, http://www.fieldgulls.com/latest-news/2013/1/28/3925234/todd-wash-to-coach-defensive-line-for-jaguars , that he wants to now get to it. I don’t think Bradley or Wash were capable of coaching it and thats why we saw what we saw last year.
The players that fit that system could be non-first rounders entirely and/or FA. Pete and John have a track record in the first round of “out of the box picking” vs. conventional wisdom, so it is hard to project whom they will select.They have also looked at FA from value/late colored glasses and I expect that to continue.
It is easy to salivate over some of the opportunities that exist at this point but judging from what they have done in the past I’ll put a bib on so as not to stain my shirt for now.
Rob, what about Jordan Poyer as a slot corner?
He looked pretty tough in that game!
I prefer him out wide personally… playmaker. Gets to the ball. Like him a lot. R2 type.