Oregon's Dion Jordan put on a show in Indianapolis
If you want to go through day six of the combine as it happened, check out the live blog we did earlier. I wanted to add a few general thoughts based on what happened today…
– Dion Jordan should be a top-10 pick. Everything just seemed so effortless. When you watch the tape, you see flashes of pass-rushing brilliance. So why were Oregon asking him to drop into coverage so much? Let the guy fly. I couldn’t be more excited to see how he works out acting as a pure pass rusher without some of the other responsibilities. Jordan’s 4.60 forty yard dash was so impressive and he stood out like a sore thumb in the other drills. Everything was easy. Quick feet, fluid hips, violent hands, perfect balance. The only question mark is an injured shoulder and he’ll have surgery on Wednesday to rectify a torn labrum. It’s likely to keep him out for a few months. Even so, it’s difficult to imagine him getting past Cleveland at #6 and he could go sooner. Possible #1 pick? Don’t rule it out just yet.
– Ziggy Ansah looked like a fish out of water during the Senior Bowl drills. I remember watching the footage from Mobile, checking on a couple of games and wondering what all the fuss was about. And since then, he hasn’t put a foot wrong. He dominated the Senior Bowl game and just carried on at the combine. He ran a 4.63 despite weighing 277lbs. To put that into context, he weighs 30lbs more than Dion Jordan and ran only 0.03 seconds slower. He doesn’t have a counter move or the technical quality to beat blockers with his head. He’s probably not going to be setting up blockers three plays in advance. Yet in terms of athletic potential, he’s an exciting player. And when you compare him to Bjoern Werner and Damontre Moore (who both underwhelmed), part of you wants to ignore college production and swing for the fences. Somebody will do that. We’ll see if it proves to be a sound decision. It’s difficult to see him getting out of the top-10, just like Dion Jordan.
– Margus Hunt ran an official 4.60 at 277lbs, a day after benching 38 reps of 225lbs. His stock was floundering a bit after a disappointing Senior Bowl. Everything we saw from Ansah during the game, we wanted to see from Hunt. Instead he was on the periphery throughout, offering no threat off the edge and struggling to contain against the run. This will give him a little kick start. As a 26-year-old rookie, he’s unlikely to generate too much hype. If he needs real technical coaching that takes a year or two, that’ll be problematic. So he’s probably at best a second or third round pick. If he was a few years younger, he’d be a first round lock based on upside. It’ll be fascinating to see where he lands. He has both exceptional and mediocre tape.
– Datone Jones showed some athletic quality during drills, moving with freedom at 283lbs. However, I think the hype factor has gone a little over the top. He ran a 4.80, which is pretty good. But it’s not a Henry Melton-esque 4.64. I remember getting very excited about Cam Jordan in 2011, and he ran a 4.69 at 287lbs. When I watch UCLA tape, I don’t think Jones is quite the player Jordan was coming into the league. He’s more consistent in terms of breaking into the backfield, but there’s a lot of ineffective rushes where he fails to identify the play call (eg, attacking the quarterback after he’s handed it off or struggling on a read option). One of the biggest issues I have with Jones remains his positional fit. What is he? He’s already had to add weight (he was 260lbs a couple of years ago) so can he add more to play as a three technique? Or is he maxed out? Is he a left end? A five technique? I’m not sure. I still think as we stand here today his best fit for the Seahawks would be as a replacement for Jason Jones. And I’m not convinced they’ll spend a first round pick on that particular role. I’m not writing Jones off though and will go back and watch 4-5 UCLA games again to try and get a better angle.
– Bjoern Werner and Damontre Moore are trending downwards. Werner looked like just a guy out there, running a middling 4.82. He lost weight during the summer to max out his speed, and this is the result? For me, he’s better off trying to add the weight again to play the five technique. Slimming down to force his way into 4-3 end or even 3-4 linebacker territory has been a mistake. Someone will take him in the top-15 I suspect, but he’s not a guy you really want to bang the table for. Moore had a disaster today. He ran a pathetic 4.95, seemingly got injured on his second attempt and then pulled out of the drills. All this just a day after recording 12 reps on the bench press. What was more concerning was just how unrefined he looked compared to the other dynamic pass rushers on show. I really don’t know what to make of him today. Every coach and scout will be going back to the tape over the next few weeks. I suppose we better do the same.
– I’m getting off the Alec Ogletree bandwagon. What a mediocre performance today! He ran an official 4.70, looked sluggish during drills and looked like a guy who’s been busy collecting DUI’s instead of working his backside off for the combine. Which of course, is exactly what he has been doing. For a player who has shown such dynamic athleticism at times (I know others disagree) this was a complete let down. All the off-field stuff was already making me question how bad this guy wants to be a great footballer, but today left very little doubt. If I was running a front office, he wouldn’t be on my draft board. Shame.
– Zaviar Gooden on the other hand ran a 4.47 and based on what little evidence the NFL Network let us see, he excelled in the other drills too. This was a player I already planned to go back and study (only seen one game so far) but at that speed he’s almost an automatic option for Seattle. It’ll be interesting to see how he matches up in terms of instincts, coverage and blitz ability.
– Khaseem Greene had a really solid work out too and remains a first round option for Seattle despite running a 4.71. Nobody would ever say Greene looked faster than that on tape, so nothing changes in that regard. I don’t think the Seahawks are pigeon-holed into 4.4/4.5 guys playing at the WILL. After all, they’ve started Leroy Hill there for three consecutive years under this regime. Greene can go sideline-to-sideline, he can cover underneath, he blitzes better than most OLB’s and he’s an impact player — recording a laundry list of sacks, turnovers and splash plays. Everything about Greene’s game is superb, he just doesn’t run a 4.47 like Zaviar Gooden. Last year the Seahawks knew there were multiple options in terms of fast, instinctive linebackers — Zach Brown, Bobby Wagner, Lavonte David, Mychal Kendricks. This year, the depth will be scarce and minimal even in round two. If you’re banking on Gooden being there later in the draft, realise that every rebuilding team in the NFL is trying to copy Seattle right now. Taking Greene at #25 wouldn’t be a flashy choice, but it’d lock down that position for years and put another leader on the defense.
– I though Kevin Reddick, Manti Te’o and Kevin Minter did well today. All three players are solid on tape and should have good careers at the next level. Just don’t expect Ray Lewis.
– Of the defensive tackles, it was a pretty unremarkable day. Sheldon Richardson didn’t look quite as good as I expected. Sharrif Floyd did fairly well. Johnathan Hankins needs to get on a pro-conditioning programme but moved quite freely despite looking like an out of shape Andre Smith. Sylvester Williams looked pretty good. The most impressive of the bunch was probably Brandon Williams to be fair. He ran a 5.37, but he is massive. And during the drills, he leapt around like a 250lbs defensive end. If only there was more Missouri Southern tape to get a better look at this guy. Montori Hughes also had a solid day.
– Barkevious Mingo is an interesting case. Today he ran a 4.58 which he kind of had to given he weighs just over 240lbs. He also tested well in the other drills and looked extremely athletic. On the other hand, I’ve watched five LSU games in the last seven days and came away thoroughly unimpressed. Daniel Jeremiah described him as the best high-five and butt-slap prospect in the draft — essentially meaning he’s a classic nearly man, but not a finisher. He flatters to deceive, playing in fits and starts. I think getting him away from Sam Montgomery will be vital to rectify some of those issue, because Montgomery appears to be living in his own little world. But can Mingo be special? Mike Mayock says he’s a 25-40 range guy. Does today’s display, along with Damontre Moore’s disaster, push him back into the top-15? And is he an option for Seattle if he falls?
– Shame on the prospects who worked out but didn’t run the forty. I’m looking at you, Bennie Logan and Kiko Alonso.
– I want to see more of Cornelius Washington, pass rusher at Georgia. He ran a 4.55 today. He had 36 reps at 225lbs. Intriguing.
– Corey Lemonier ran a 4.60 and he started the 2012 season on fire. Then he disappeared, along with everyone else on the Auburn roster. At his size you’d expect a quick time, but he looked good today. I previously had him in the round 3-4 range and he’s admitted that’s the grade he received from the draft committee. I’m not sure I’d adjust that based on today, but like Washington he’s another LEO to monitor.
– To conclude, I don’t think we’re any clearer to knowing what the hell the Seahawks are going to do at #25. This is the funkiest draft I’ve ever written about. I’m still struggling to convince myself there’s a defensive tackle they’d be willing to draft in round one once the big three (Floyd, Richardson, Lotulelei) are gone. It’s a deep class, sure. But it’s full of guys you like in January and then by April, you feel like you can do better. The top defensive ends will go early. I still think linebacker is an option (Khaseem Greene). I’d love to know what they thought about the tight ends, especially given none really put on an explosive performance. Would they entertain Zach Ertz running a 4.7? Or a Tyler Eifert, Gavin Escobar type? I think the depth at receiver continues to make that a much more likely second round option.
I’ll have an open thread on the blog tomorrow to discuss the final day of the combine as the defensive backs perform. On Wednesday, it’s mock draft day.
Khaseem Greene is still my favorite player in the draft. But when I see the 40 time and bench press of Washington I would like to see the seahawks take him in the 4th or 5th round.
I bet you Washington is going in the first round, or at least high second. This just comes from my logic: would you rather draft him or Damontre Moore?
I just do not see this front office taking a WLB like Greene without exceptional speed in the first round. It really would shock me. I am a Dion Jordan believer now though, wow. Is he the perfect LEO?
Absolutely! Will we get him? No. But since I saw him way back in Fall I thought he’d be the perfect LEO. Then he shot up draft boards haha
I think we can get a little bogged down with the speed issue. I think they probably take a defensive lineman in round one to be fair, but I’d have Greene on the list of maybe’s. He impacts too many games to ignore.
I agree.
There is a lot more to speed than just a 40 time. Anticipation, recognition and instinct reduce reaction time as well.
Additionally, speed doesn’t dictate what a player does when he arrives at the moment of truth. Greene’s production implies he has a mix of instinct and recognition that allows him to commit to the play quicker. You can really see that on tape — he is very good at already being on his horse to where the ball is going to be before the ball is delivered or the runner has arrived.
Speed doesn’t account for other skills too. Greene shows excellent ball skills as well. He is outstanding at making difficult catches for picks. He also demonstrates a regular/persistent awareness for attacking the ball and forcing fumbles. This isn’t a guy that has to focus on play recognition or tackling techniques. He’s already mastered that. He is already working, applying and mastering the last 10%. Being in position to make the 90% play is mundane to him. He gets there knowing he’ll make that play. He works on the heady ‘awareness’ plays that make huge impacts in games.
At 4.7, that’s surprisingly slow. To your point, I think that does merit re-examining his tape. Just as if Te’o ran a sub 4.5 would do. Teams will go back and see if Greene perhaps ‘left plays on the field’ because of his 40 time. I’ve looked at him a lot and I didn’t see evidence of that at all.
Slow or not, he makes impact plays on a regular basis in space. Ed Reed is widely considered to be the finest Free safety of our generation. We have 2 linebackers with better 40 times than him. And a DE too. He could be the slowest FS by 40 time (4.57) in the league.
4.7 is still NFL linebacker speed. It’s at the very low end. You aren’t alone in scratching your head at that one.
Jamie Collins was the linebacker star of the day in my eyes, providing a thumbs up in every measurable, and his on-field productivity matches.
You have a link to some Collins film JC?
Like to see some Cornelius Washington film that isnt the same one of Ogletree.
Note on Zavier Gooden: He hurt his hamstring part way through the Georgia game. He really wasn’t right again until the Syracuse game. If you go back to 2010-2011 vs. Oklahoma you can really see his speed on the field.
Thanks for the heads up.
In my first mock draft in january I had Zavier Goodsen in the 5th round with 131 oick and I was calling him my sleeper in the draft. I don’t think teams will be sleeping on him now after the senior bowl and combine.
I know you weren’t particularly impressed w armonty Bryant but there are things about him that just scream JS/PC draft pick: impressive straight line speed , great length, very productive on tape albeit at a very sm school. But thing that really jumped out at me today while watching him were those LONG arms and massive hands. They are off the charts big! I think this guy could clean up the technique issues w some nfl coaching and would love to see the hawks take a flyer on him in the 4-5 range. He’s got Leo all over him. IMHO! Any thoughts?????
As I said in the other piece, I wasn’t particularly blown away today. It’s hard to have much of an opinion without watching tape – I’ve only seen highlights.
I think Pete (a stickler for unique traits) will draft him for his “unique” running style.
I’d love to see a write-up on both Cornelius Washington and Jamie Collins. I watched the tape on Collins vs nebraska and left with mixed feelings. Seems to flash some good pass rushing skills but struggles when asked to drop back. Given that they both have LEO size/speed/athleticism they’re probably worth further investigation.
I’d be fine with not taking a LB in the top two rounds and if possible taking Kevin Reddick in 3rd or later
Rob,
I agree that Cornelius Washington is very intriguing. I have been meaning to ask you about him, because when I watched the Senior Bowl, I was looking to see what the buzz was about Montori Hughes, but I ended up being distracted by the huge guy coming off the edge and ending up in the backfield seemingly every play. I was thinking, who the hell is that guy? Of course it turned out to be Cornelius Washington. He was simply a beast in that game, and I think he had almost as good a Senior Bowl showing as Ansah did.
Then he comes into the combine and dominates on the bench press, runs a fast forty, and just looks like an incredible physical specimen. I heard Mayock’s comment that he wants to go back and look at more tape on him to understand why he didn’t put up bigger numbers at Georgia. That was the question I had in my head after seeing him in the Senior Bowl and then looking up his stats. I don’t remember whether he had any actual sacks in the Senior Bowl, but I do remember him pressuring the quarterback constantly. Given Kip’s write up the other day on Bill Walsh’s Defensive Tackle philosophy, maybe that’s enough.
I too want to see what his issue was at Georgia. He had 0.5 sacks in 2012 and played every game. Sometimes you can be used in a poor scheme fit, but you still expect a certain degree of production. It’s going to limit his stock unless there’s some kind of major excuse just waiting to be uncovered. But he’s got everything you’d want from an edge rusher physically.
How can a guy like Cornelius Washing get overlooked? This guy has top 5 NFL Draft combine numbers for a DE. 265lbs 6-4″ tall with a 4.55 forty time and 36 bench reps. This guy should be able to be coached into a 43 DE monster. Anybody know how old he is? Am I missing something? Some team should take him in the second round and I hope it’s us.
0.5 sacks in 2012, so I think everyone is eager to find out what on earth happened at Georgia.
Rob and Kip, I’d be interested in your thoughts about QBs. I believe Schneider has mentioned before that he’d like to take a QB in about every draft, and it could be a possibility this year especially considering the trade talk going around about Flynn. Anybody you’d have your eye on as a backup-quality quarterback in the later rounds?
Ryan Aplin. Arkansas State.
Colby Cameron at Louisiana Tech and Sean Renfree at Duke are two guys I like. I know Kip likes Matt Scott and I’m going to spend more time on him over the next few weeks.
Why take a WILL in the first round when that player will sit on the sideline for 50% of the plays when Seattle is in the nickle or dime? Unless Greene is so good in coverage he puts either Wright or Wagner on the bench, it seems like overvaluing a position to me.
Leroy Hill played 89% of the snaps in 2011 at the WILL. You aren’t in third down or nickel 50% of the season.
Something about that 89% doesn’t make sense. Hill was was replaced by Wagner in nickel package starting week 5, so for about 12+ games Hill couldn’t have been playing any more than about 2/3rd of the defensive snaps.
I’m guessing 89% is out of the total amount of snaps the WLB position had during the season (with Smith taking the other 11%). It can’t be the total amount of snaps the defense took.
Oops, I missed you saying 2011. My apologies, rob. That number makes sense now. I am curious the amount of snaps he took in 2012.
I think it was about 59% but obviously he had injuries and ended the year splitting time with Malcom Smith. But if they did spend an early pick on a WILL then theoretically he could play about 90% snaps if not more.
Rob/Kip, any thoughts on Keith Pough? I love the idea of a 3rd day trash-talking, chip-on-his-shoulder Richard Sherman at LB.
Not a player I’ve spent much time on. Looked fairly good in the drills.
The more I read comments about Greene, the more confussed I get about him. I get it, the good and the bad. One thing to consider for the bad is his slow 40 time. PC loves speed in his LB’s as our roster will attest to that. The positive side of Greene relating to speed is just how smart he is and how good his insticts are. OK, so he doesnt have blazing speed but his decision making process seems to be so quick that perhaps the reaction speed could really make him a 4.4 speed linebacker, thoughts?
I would think any scout would factor that (reaction time/instincts) into their overall evaluation of a player.
I’m getting more confused too but not by Greene’s combine performance. To most of us it’s clear that the team needs to upgrade at WLB. But PC has been saying that he really wants his guys to play (meaning Smith, Morgan, and Bradford). Doug Baldwin tweeted that Bradford could be the surprise player on the team this year (and Baldwin is pretty good with his tweets). Now, does Carroll really want to let those USC guys compete for this spot with maybe another mid/late pick? Or is he trying to deceiptfully remove Greene from consideration of the 25th pick while actually hoping to make Greene the 25th pick???? lol
We may already have our WLB on the team, now that Hill is out of the way we might be surprised. If Baldwin thinks Bradford is THE guy and since we haven’t heard anything from PC/JS about needing to fill that spot in FA or the Draft we should probably assume no LB in the first two rounds on the face of it. Bevell was on the field in the WR/TE drills and JS mentioned this WR group looking pretty unique. PC has mentioned many times about needing better pass rushing. Conclusion – D-line and WR/TE in the first two rounds barring a can’t miss player who falls like Cooper.
Who knows, maybe it’s all smoke and mirrors.
I think it’d be wrong to make any assumptions based on Doug Baldwin’s tweets and what Pete Carroll has or hasn’t said to the media.
Yeah I think we can get bogged down a little bit with speed. He’s in that 4.fastenough category for me. You don’t have his level of production with some ability.
One big question about Dion Jordan is what is he going to be like when he puts on an extra 20 pounds? How is that going to affect his athleticism and speed?
That was my first thought when I saw him today.
I’m not sure he needs to add another 20lbs.
I agree.
Normally, you want players to add weight to be stouter against the run. Jordan displayed pretty decent ability to keep blockers off of him however even at his current weight. Even more interesting is to see his ability to deflect cut blockers from his legs.
He seems to have a really underrated ability to just kind of not be cleanly blockable. He doesn’t use brute size/strength to take on blocks in an immovable object meets irresistable force kind of way. So I don’t think that size (or lack of size) applies to him like it does to other prospects.
It’s kind of wierd. He is really weird. Originally I was very much not a Dion Jordan fan. But the more I look at him, he just screams unique. There isn’t a guy in the NFL that I can really compare him to. He’s like a teflon coated greased gumby out there. Guys don’t get on him clean. They can’t really get ahold of him. And he looks like he can just float out there like an air hockey puck.
I sure wish we could figure out a way to move up and get Ziggy Ansah in the 1st round. Then we might have to move up a few clicks in the 2nd to get Brandon Williams. Next to Brandon Mebane, they will either collapse the pocket or penetrate. That changes everything. Because flushed QB’s cannot outrun Bruce Irvin with his freak speed…
And we need an OLB. Though we have Toomer and Morgan and Malcom Smith. All have great speed and surely one of them will put on 10 pounds this offseason and be THE man next year???
I hope so because I don’t want to waste a pick in the first three rounds on an OLB if we already have a guy that can do a good job. I would like to see 1st DT, 2nd WR/TE, 3rd Slot Corner. After that I don’t care as long as we take a shot on a DE and Another DT. If we don’t take a WLB in the first 3 rounds than we already have our answer on the current roster.
Agreed…What do you think of Brandon Mebane + Brandon Williams??? I heard BW looked like a DE in the agility drills and like 38 x 225!!! A bit slow, though…
I really liked Williams, he’s a huge man with that nimble toe. Pocket collapser.
I agree on that.
He is raw. He really doesn’t look like he’s had to use technique to be productive. I do think that hurt him in Mobile.
He does however possess an excellent bull rush. He explodes into blockers and can reliably force them to give ground rapidly. He didn’t display a good ability to use technique to force his way through a crease/gap and cause protection to break down that way.
He did show a very good motor and stamina. He visibly keeps working his assignment until the whistle. This is evident in his push — he keeps linemen moving backwards steadily. You don’t see guards recovering/resetting with success against him.
Additionally, he displayed good initial quickness on the snap. His display at the combine confirmed for me what I saw from the senior bowl footage and from the accounts of him from those that attended.
I think he’s a very solid tier 2 option. He has excellent tools to work with, but he needs development. I can’t answer how likely that may be. If Pete thinks he can develop him, I’d say he could well be our #1 pick. Not that I think he has an R1 grade. But I think one team, and maybe two will strongly consider taking him before our #58 rolls around.
The Irvin/Carpenter picks highlight that willingness to see beyond the player in April and instead look at what they can be later. Brandon certainly isn’t lesser than either of those two prospects in terms of the natural/physical tools he brings to the draft table.
On offense, I think our OG play will greatly improve. Carpenter will finally be healthy and should become the 1st round road grader at LG. Sweezy’s remarkable transition is complete and he should be ready to take over and solidify RG. RT is an area we should look to improve.
Tops on my wishlist is a joker TE with good speed and great route running. PC has openly said he wants to run more 2 x TE sets. This obviously creates more blocking on the field for our Beast game. It also creates opportunities for mismatches on demand: play-action fake, chip block this time and our TE runs past a flailing LB…all day long! A good typical TE or joker TE really would complement our already successful scheme and add another vexing option for defenses to worry about…
The Hawks really need to move up in the draft and get some quality players.
I know, they lucked out on some late round picks in the past, but they can’t depend on finding all pros in the 5th rd. It doesn’t happen very often.
Focus on the offense and pick a WR in the 1st rd, like Hopkins or Austin.
Trade the picks, and some of next years picks, and move up and get 4 or 5 higher picks. The Hawks don’t need a lot of needs, just a few quality players.
Sorry, ” the Hawks don’t have a lot of needs…” Its late……..
Don – there doesn’t seem to be a consensus as to who the top-10 players are, let alone what it would take to move up.
Go back to sleep don, your just having a bad dream. “Lucked out on a few late round picks?” Please….. These guys know what they’re doing!!
Was on the 49er site, they are hoping the 49ers move ahead of Seattle to take Trevor Austin, with thoughts of Kap, LMJ and Austin on the field at the same time.
Okay, if the Hawks are at 25, and Short, Austn and Hopkins are still available, who should they take?
I say …… its tough, I want all three.
I’d love to see the San Francisco 49ers trade above us to get Trevor Austin.
Isn’t James like a bigger Tavon anyway? I don’t see them doing that. They probably go DT.
Me too. He’s certainly fast and elusive – but at that size, injury will have to be a huge concern. One Kam blast and his career could be in jeopardy.
Is Trevor Tavon’s smaller brother?
Trevor sounds like a big brother!
Rob – Just think of the 49ers wasting all that time manufacturing plays for Trevor Austin!!!
During his little performance on the red carpet at the Oscars, Ed Reed referred to “Austin Smith” and the 4.2 forty he ran at the combine. He was wrong on both counts. I guess even the pros are getting so excited about the little guy that they can’t remember his name.
Of course professional bloggers never get names wrong though. 🙂
In that scenario, either trade down into the second and get a #1 in 2014 or an additional #2 and get a DT like Logan, CB like Roby or Mathieu, or WR like Wheaton or Woods, or some combination of that.
I’d love for them to replace Delanie Walker and Frank Gore with LMJ and Tavon Austin.
If they want to sacrifice their toughness with weak jitterbugs, I’m all for that. Go finesse PLEASE!
Sorry for posting this twice, but I’m running a day late and I’m hoping someone can fill me in:
Rob – what do you know about Trevardo Williams? I don’t recall reading anything here about his performance at the combine: he was the fastest DL at 4.57, did 30 reps @ 225, had the best vertical @ 38″, and broad jumped 10’4″. Outstanding for a guy that no one seems to be talking about. Where do you see him playing at 6’1″ and 241#?
I know very little to be fair but have tape to watch.
He’s been talked about. I’ve touched on him here as well.
Fantastic production as a pass rusher. Not just in sacks. But penetration and pressure.
He doesn’t have the physical measuarables you’d like from an end. But his production is fantastic. Run defense is inconsistent. He can viciously attack a tackle with good leverage and hands on one play, then get swallowed up even by a TE on another.
He plays from a 2 and 3 point stance — much like Clemons does at LEO. He is lighter, less lengthy and shorter than Clemons. I’d say at this point, he’d be a real liability as a 3 down player because NFL blockers are much better than college blockers. He’s probably going to get erased from the field at will until he improves that aspect.
Probably an OLB. Hard to say because he didn’t do a lot of coverage. His ability to rush from the edge was just too awesome for that. May not be a scheme fit for us.