Senior Bowl day two notes

Let’s start with a recap of day one. You can see a ten minute clip (North OL vs DL) above. Tony Pauline gave a breakdown to that’s worth a viewing. He says La’el Collins (T, LSU) and T.J. Clemmings (T, Pittsburgh) were both disappointing. Collins was reportedly pushed back into the pocket on several occasions, while Clemmings looked raw and struggled with hand placement and technique. Both players have undoubted physical talent but have seemingly endured a rough start here.

It’s a surprise to hear Collins struggled, although I’ve seen other reviews praising his day one performance. In an interview with New Orleans media last night he seemed disappointed — referencing his need to improve on day two. We didn’t see him pushed around at LSU — in fact one of his big positives was upper body power and leverage. He’s top heavy.

It’s been a great start for Carl Davis (DT, Iowa) and Owamagbe Odighizuwa (DE, UCLA) according to Pauline. Davis has turned up to play this week. In the video above he was dipping and swimming inside, complimenting flair and power to break into the backfield. He’s a massive human being and potentially a late first round pick if this continues. On tape he doesn’t seem to ‘wow’ that much, but he’s shown technical refinement and hand use to go with length and upper body strength. He’s hard to move off the ball.

Odighizuwa is becoming increasingly interesting as this process goes along. Built like a Greek God, he received a glowing report from Pauline. He was one of the players giving La’el Collins a hard time. While he doesn’t always win with speed off the edge, he’s adept at dipping inside and driving to the quarterback. He’s explosive off the snap, he can shove blockers into the backfield with a real jolt. We put him in round one in last weeks mock draft and that’s where he’s heading at this rate. The only concern will be previous injury history (hip). If he checks out medically, he’s an exciting talent who could be another Ziggy Ansah.

So, on to today…

It sounded like T.J. Clemmings was enduring another rough day, before perhaps repairing things later on…

Usually the big, athletic tackles go to Mobile to put themselves in the top ten. For Clemmings, this is perhaps the best review of where he’s at. He only started playing offense at the back end of his college career. Physically he looks the part — a true prototype for a left tackle. But he needs time and refinement. Greg Robinson was one of the best physical talents to enter the NFL in recent years when he went #2 overall last year. He struggled early on. Eric Fisher and Lane Johnson also needed time. While it’s easy to fall into the ‘safe pick’ rhetoric when it comes to offensive linemen — that isn’t the case anymore. Teams are taking a punt because the top athletes in college are nearly all playing defense these days. You need guys who can match up.

It won’t be a shock if Clemmings goes in the top-15 despite his early struggles at the Senior Bowl. Such is the premium on the position. If you can coach him up he has a shot to be great. But this is a nice reality check. He just might not be ready to start immediately as a rookie.

Most of the buzz yesterday centered around Danny Shelton (DT, Washington). Yet when you watch the video above, it was clear in one drill he was gassed after two snaps. Granted, in the two early snaps he shows a great blend of power, quick feet and mobility. Conditioning is obviously an issue for any player with Shelton’s size, but it’s something teams have to look into. How prepared will he be to control his weight? He was too flabby in 2014. If you can manage this situation, great. If not, it’s something to consider. Looking at his midriff I think you’d need to do more checks here compared to Jordan Phillips.

Shelton continues to be talked about as a top ten prospect (I don’t agree, I think that’s too high). Maybe today offered some perspective?

Mixed reviews for some other prospects too…

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  1. Volume 12

    I fins it very interesting that some scouts like what they see in some of these guys and others don’t. Tony Pauline would be one name I’d tend to believe over some of the others.

    Rob, not sure if you saw my question in the last post. What do you make of Duke WR Jamison Crowder? I know he’s small and didn’t have a great weigh-in, but he may be one of those guys who just defies the odds.

    • Rob Staton

      Yep certainly smaller. Decent cushion eating receiver. I think if Seattle are going to go that small, Dorsett a better bet. Just a fantastic athlete.

      • Volume 12

        Yeah, Dorsett is intriguing as well.

        But Crowder is no slouch athletically either, Crowder just seems to have ‘it.’ A little WR Tavon Austin to his game, mixed in with some WR Brandin Cooks. Crowder is really growing on me. His practice habits really stand out to me. Almost was killed in a jet skiing accident with his best friend, little brother has down syndrome. real family guy, Great blocker for his size, good production 2 years in a row, great punt returned.

        He almost comes across, dare I say, as a smaller version of WRs Kearse and Baldwin. Gets no love, underrated athletically, has that chip on his shoulder.

        Duke OG Laken Tomlinson is a stud as well. Really like him too. HC Cutcliffe always seems to prepare his guys well for the NFL.

      • Curt

        Rob, just curious how you watch the practice? I watch it on NFL network and get to see ONLY what they want you too. They are at commercial or talking about the players as much as watching practice. Do you watch an all 22 view or something like that. You do this every year. I just find it frustrating not watching the players doing their thing MOST of the time.

        • Rob Staton

          I watch what I can find — Philly Eagles put some of the practice tape on their web site. Some of it pops up on Youtube. And NFL Network. Takes a lot of digging to find what you want.

  2. FC

    Tomlinson looked really good in that video, only Anderson and Davis gave him any trouble at all. What round is he likely to go in? He would be a good value in the late second or third round from what he showed here.

    Clemmings looked terrible, he is way to high and tries to compensate by lunging with his arms. The Wisconsin RT was consistently too high as well, but showed good hand use, so if he could play lower he could be a solid backup. Shelton showed great power the first two snaps, but after that was a complete non-factor. That is a really bad sign if he is getting worn down that quickly.

  3. rowdy

    I think 1 on 1 for o linemen is unfair and not a good indicator of talent. Linemen are never on a island and their job is dependent on the guys next to them. I think it is a good indicator for d linmen though. If they look great in scrimmage and not that great in 1 on 1, I would give them a pass.

  4. John_s

    Justin Hardy – I am interested in how he does this week. He measured shorter than what was listed at ECU (measured 5’10) but he has huge hands (10″). Watching tape he’s ultra competitive, loves to block, is good at high pointing and getting the contested ball. It will be interesting to see what his numbers are at the combine.

    • Volume 12

      These practices and pro days can be a bit overrated. That’s why I take everything with a grain of salt. QB Teddy Bridgewater for example, had an awful pro day, but should have Benn the 1st QB taken last year. Let’s wait until the bullets start flying.

      The combine on the other hand, IMO, is the real deal. That and the actual all-star games themselves seem to be the best indicators for where the true talent lies.

      • John_s

        I disagree about this week. These practice days are the only place where you see guys go one on one and team drills and see how they compete and adjusts to personal coaching.

        The combine is referred to as the underwear Olympics for a reason we have seen many guys blow up at the combine and drafted higher than they should have and never panned out. It’s nice to be able to get their 40, 10, 3 cone, broad and vert but positional drills I’m meh on them.

        QB is a totally different animal when it comes to pro days compared to other positions.

  5. TwistedChopper

    If I were interested in drafting Shelton, I would definitely have some indepth discussions with his coaches and trainers. Did they want him to put on that much weight? Did they ask him to do it in a really fast time frame? I think with a guy like that, you are O.K. with his current weight if you believe he could mold to weight , strength, and speed that you’d like him to play at.

    However, that being said I still think he’s a better fit for round 3 or later. I can’t see him having any type of regular ability to rush the QB and as a run stopper (who might be out of shape) you just won’t get a lot of snaps with him on the field. Maybe have him come in on 1st down and that is it?

    • Ho Lee Chit

      I agree with your assessment of Shelton. You do not use a first round pick on a guy that can only play two snaps at a time before he is gassed.

      Our entire defense is built on speed and conditioning. A guy I would keep your eye on for the interior line is Marcus Hardison of ASU. At 6-3, 311 with 4.9 speed, he is the type of athlete we usually go for. Our DL’s are usually smaller but quicker than average. . We just do not play guys that cannot pursue sideline to sideline and then come back and line up again. Hardison blew up his senior year. He had 10 sacks and 51 tackles in the PAC-12. He will probably be a sleeper mid round pick. I would like to see his combine forty time and some more video. He was the best player on the ASU defense.

      • Volume 12

        Good call on Hardison. He’s personally my favorite interior or hybrid D-lineman, As for his 40 time, I’ve heard he runs a 4.7, could be just a rumor, but if that’s what he runs wouldn’t surprise me one bit.

        I’d much take a guy like Mizzou’s DT Lucas Vincent late on day 3 over DT Danny Shelton. Vincent has versatility, has the pursuit speed and range you like, possess a huge personality, and comes from a D-line factory down there at Missouri.

  6. redzone086

    Rob you know I’ve been touting Nate Orchard for a while now. Do you still think he is a mid round guy or has he climbed to day one yet?

    • redzone086

      Sorry was thinking day one or two?

    • Rob Staton

      I think he’s at best a R2-3. Willing to be proven wrong. From what I’ve seen of the practices here, he relies a lot on power and hands. Which is fine, but the R1 types have burst and speed too. I’m not convinced he’ll run a great forty. If he does I’ll review my take.

  7. rowdy

    One wr I haven’t seen anyone talk about that I like is nelson agholor. If we’re talking about Devin smith he should be in the conversation. He’s also a great returner seems like a polished route runner and has speed.

    • Matt

      I hadn’t really seen much of Clive Walford until today, and came away impressed! He looked fantastic running routes, even beating a CB on one play, in the one on ones. The physical measureables are there and I wouldn’t be surprised if he ran well(<4.7 40). The limited tape on draftbreakdown Walford shows a considerable amount of playmaking ability with solid hands.

      • Volume 12

        Big fan of TE Clive Walford. Former basketball player as well. He’d be a great fit, good run blocker, tough, feisty.

    • Rob Staton

      Very competitive and gritty — the type Seattle likes in that sense.

      • Volume 12

        TE Walford IMO seems to be the best fit for Seattle when you consider what they look for in TEs.

        And I don’t believe he’s not a good athlete as some say. Watch that Florida St game from the end of the year. This dude runs away down the seam from a defense loaded with potential NFL prospects.

        I think he’s Julius Thomas lite, with a Marshawn Lynxh type toughness/vibe bout him.

        The ACC has a ton of intriguing NFL talent this year.

        • Rob Staton

          While I tend to agree on his athleticism — I can also see the other side of the story. At times he looks like he’s running through quicksand.

          • Volume 12

            True, but if we’re looking at Walford’s potential fit in Seattle for example, what TE other than Luke Willson doesn’t look like they’re running in quicksand?

            I think he’s got the perfect blend of toughness, run blocking, grit, and just enough athleticism in him. Seems to be that ‘old school’ type TE that Seattle likes.

  8. Volume 12

    Rob, with the buzz Miami WR Phillip Dorsett is generating and if he does indeed run the fastest 40 time at the combine, will he even be available when Seattle picks? Is he related to HOF HB Tony Dorsett?

    Here’s why I like Duke WR Jamison Crowder. On some of the videos at NFL.COM he chops his feet extremely well at the top of his stem (route), he’s made a handful of really exciting red-line catches, explodes out of his breaks at the LOS creating instant separation, for a smaller guy he seems to handle press and man coverage just like a bigger WR, tracks the ball really well over his shoulder, great punt returner, his practice habits are exciting, and if you aren’t overly physical with him, he’s gone.

    I found it interesting that Mike Mayock said ‘he’s T.Y. Hilton. That’s who he is.’ WR Hilton is a guy who gave our DBs fits last year. I know Crowder is tiny, but I just keep thinking that Seattle is the smallest team in the league, and that has to be on purpose not accidentally.

    Hear me out here. Some of these WRs have fantastic deep speed, but just like we saw with P-Rich this year, at the NFL level some of these DBs are going to match that step for step. Just my 2 cents worth.

    • Cysco

      Saw an article on a Jets blog that their font office spent a lot of time yesterday talking to Dorsett. They couldn’t possibly consider him at #6. Could they?

      That speed is exciting, no doubt, but there isn’t a ton of production to back it up. Is he a fast dude who plays football or a football player who is fast?

      I’d be really surprised to see Dorsett drafted above Devin Smith unless Smith fails to show well between now and the draft.

      Appears that Dorsett’s stock is rising though.

      • Curt

        Maybe they are thinking of getting him in the 2nd if he’s still there.

      • Rob Staton

        I think Dorsett goes R2.

      • Volume 12

        WR Smith wasn’t too impressive on day 1 of practice. But again, who hasn’t had a bad day or two?

        WR Phillip Dorsett is definitely intriguing, but from the limited tape I’ve seen on Dorsett, he seems a little one dimensional. Having said that, that one dimension is highly exciting.

        The Eagles are also showing alot of interest in Dorsett as well.

  9. HOUSE

    One guy that I found fundamentally sound was Delaware TE Nick Boyle. He appears to have above average blocking skills and good hands.I know Delaware didn’t play top competition so this kid got little/no exposure. He didn’t have a great ’14 season (just 304 yds) in a run heavy offense.

    I think he’ll probably run in the mid-4.6/4-7s and I think he’d be a great option in the 4th/5th rd. He has the build of Zach Miller and resembles his skillset. He has very good size (6’5/265lbs) and is a versatile guy (he’s also a long snapper).

    • Volume 12

      Delaware TE Nick Boyle really surprised me as well. Another small school guy who also impressed me was Hobart OL Ali Market? His versatility really stood out to me.

      A couple OL who are starting to grow on me are Penn St’s Donovan Smith and Wisconsin’s Rob Havenstein. I know big surprise that their both from the BIG 10 right?

      Smith is still raw and needs some work, but damn his potential is exciting, I think had he stayed another year he probably would have been a mid 1st rounder.

      Havenstein on the other hand strikes me as a prototypical Tom Cable prospect. He moves really well for his great size, tough as nails, is a great hand fighter, and just a road grader in the running game. He’s also a really high character type guy too. He cut off his locks (long hair) to donate, because his mom had cancer when he was in High School I think. When I watch him, for some reason (maybe the size) Breno Giacomini keeps coming to mind.

      • Volume 12

        Should say *Marpet not market

  10. Attyla the Hawk

    It’s really important to pump the brakes a lot when watching/following the Senior Bowl.

    For us amateur draftniks, the Senior bowl presents a very skewed picture for several reasons:

    1. It’s the first real collection of talent we can see/follow. So the hyperbole and initial impressions can often be formed here. Also, it’s a ready made environment where confirmation bias can run rampant.

    2. The talent picture here is woefully incomplete. In reality, less than a third of the day 1 AND two picks will come from this roster. The bulk of these players are day three talents.

    When watching the Senior Bowl, a first round talent really has to jump out at you. The best/dominant players from last year’s participants (Aaron Donald, Zack Martin) were picked in the teens. Only 4 more were picked in the last third of the first round (most on positional reaches).

    2013 saw a bumper crop with 10 first round picks. 20 of the other picks were underclassmen.

    When watching the Senior Bowl, players have to really dominate to be in the round 1 discussion. Most of the guys that look good here are guys in the 50 to 100 overall range. Still guys that will make rosters and many of whom develop into good players. But be wary of the natural overvaluation of talent in this all star game when trying to assign likely when/where players will get picked.

    This year is kind of interesting. Mainly it’s because I’m not seeing any players really dominating or improving their first round status. Clemmings could actually be hurting his stock, although the general wisdom says that players don’t really drop at this event — i.e. it doesn’t trump game tape. These participants really seem like they aren’t making a lot of gains at least in the round one discussion. Certainly a lot of guys are putting themselves in the day 2 conversation though.

    The few exceptions seem to be La’el Collins, Owamagbe Odighizuwa and possibly Nate Orchard . Collins is pretty much chewing up the competition. He’s a guy Rob has been very high on and most seem to see as a 20th to 40th overall guy. Seems he’s separating himself to be a clear day 1 guy similar in the way Zack Martin did last year.

    Owamagbe is doing the same. His measurables also really helped him as he was assumed to have that. The confirmation of his physical tools, and how he’s demonstrating his explosiveness should get him in as well.

    Orchard was always a fringe first round guy to begin with. Probably a 30-45 kind of guy. But he’s done very well and his measurables are decent. Not freak elite. But not depressingly overadvertised either.

    Not seeing a lot of Lane Johnsons or Aaron Donalds in this group. Owamagbe could crack top 10 overall based on the positional value of pass rushers. He seems to be pulling a Ziggy Ansah this year, and there aren’t a ton of underclassmen pass rushers in this class to squeeze him out.

    • Volume 12

      Didn’t 3 of the top 5 picks play at the senior bowl last year?

      True, that a lot of these guys probably aren’t first rounder’s, but you can still get guys who contribute outside of the first and second frames. Over half this team is made up of mid round picks and UDFAs. Not that I took your words to mean this in any way, but not every prosoect we debate, evaluate, or talk about here has to be a first round guy.

      While I do think that DE Odighizuwa more than likely cracks the first round, the top 10 might be a bit rich. This is a guy who’s coming off of 2 hip injuries, and as Rob has pointed out, still needs some refinement in his edge rushing. He’s not as much of a speed rusher that ‘Ziggy’ Ansah was.

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