For instant reaction thoughts after the New Orleans loss click here.
The Seahawks aren’t a finesse team. They might be a ‘wannabe’ though. Their desire is to be the bully. The reality is somewhat different.
In November 2014 I wrote the following:
Replacing (Marshawn) Lynch will be the toughest thing this franchise has to do in the post-Super Bowl era. You could argue running backs are easy to plug into an offense. How else can you describe 29-year-old Justin Forsett posting 5.4 yards-per-carry in Baltimore as the fourth most productive runner in the NFL? I think for most teams it’s a valid point. But not for Seattle. Not with Lynch.
He is so integral to this teams’ identity. He is a phenom, a truly unique runner that deserves to be remembered as fondly as any other running back since the turn of the century. His physical style, ability to break tackles, his attitude on the field. These are not easily replaced by just plugging in another player. The moment Seattle loses ‘Beast Mode’ the team will also lose a part of its identity. There’s no getting away from that.
Lynch is long gone in Seattle but his absence is still felt. They’re not just missing Marshawn’s exceptional running ability and talent. They miss the way he set the tone for everything and connected the offense to the defense.
It’s easy to forget how good Lynch was. Go back and watch the videos from 2011 onward. On a Mount Rushmore of Seahawks stars, he’d be a lock alongside Walter Jones.
He’s not the only one they miss. Kam Chancellor provided a similar dynamic on defense. Everything was geared around being bigger, faster, stronger and tougher than the opponent. Teams feared Marshawn and set up their defensive gameplan to stop him. Opponents feared Kam. Crossing routes? No thanks.
They were surrounded by an angry, pissed off, undermined group of misfits. Richard Sherman slighted by lasting to round five. Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril — failing to receive respect in free agency as they remained on the market in 2013.
The cumulative sum was a team so determined to prove a point both on the field and off. The Seahawks were the toughest team in the league. They were also the loudest — but they backed it up. The bark and the bite were equally strong.
Something is missing with the current team. There’s no doubt they’re talent rich. Russell Wilson is an exceptional quarterback. Bobby Wagner is the best linebacker in football. Tyler Lockett is incredible.
They also have a couple of extremely physical players such as K.J. Wright and Duane Brown plus some emerging young talent.
They’re not bullies though. They’re not scary. They’re not intimidating anyone. They’re not imposing their will.
Where’s the attitude? The fear factor? The intimidation?
The Seahawks have gone from the LOB to a much more welcoming environment in the secondary. The cornerbacks are no longer challenging routes and beating up receivers. Where are the turnovers and the hits? In the last 19 regular season games, Bradley McDougald consistently looks like the only one capable of making a pick or a big play.
This isn’t what you expect from a Carroll secondary. Clearly they need more talent and that will likely be a big emphasis in the off-season. They also need some dogs, too.
The reassuring thing is they clearly know it. They drafted Marquise Blair in the second round for this very reason. He’s a hitter. They know the secondary needs an edge. The quicker he gets up to speed and into the starting line-up the better.
It’s not just the secondary though. The front seven aren’t creating much pressure or challenging opponents. The secondary needs help.
On offense they want to run the ball but they can’t convert at home in the rain on 3rd & 1 or 4th & 1 from midfield. Chris Carson — who is capable of being a tone-setter and a dynamic physical presence — has fumbled three times in as many weeks. The big hulking offensive line that was so praised during the summer has been more hype than results after three games.
The Seahawks aren’t playing clean football this season. That can be tidied up. They’ve never been the fastest of starters.
The bigger concern for the long term, however, is how the physical edge is currently lacking. They simply don’t have enough BAMF’s.
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I might write another piece later. I just felt this was something I wanted to write about in the aftermath of the Saints game — as a part two to the instant reaction piece.
Would be interested in your thoughts.
This piece really speaks to. This game had glimpses of the 42-7 Rams drubbing at home. It was pretty underwhelming to see the combination of Clowney & Ziggy not be a formidable force. But overall, the 10,000 feet view, they don’t look like a physical punishing team. In particular the secondary looks so soft. I’m ready to give up Shaquil Griffin, his lack of tackling ability is eye searing and he is not a playmaker at all. Mcdougal & Hill look average to below average. But the lack of edge and nastiness, this isn’t my Seahawks, or rather the brand of Seahawks I love to watch.
I do think Al Woods & Moen do give a lot better physicality at the point of attack to at least hold the line, but players, including Wagner are misfiring and not making basic tackles or shooting the wrong hole/gap etc. This was a game where our team thought it was going to be any easy game, came out lackadaisical and were punished for it. They lost in all phases of the game. That’s why taking a risk on a ultra competitive malcontent like Jalen Ramsey is worth it. You can’t have too many nice guys that don’t burn with fire to win. It’s a long season though and hopefully they take this lesson and play with a purpose.
My first thought is yes, my second thought is but who?
Who are the trend setting BAMFs in the league right now at various positions and what can we learn from that?
We will have space this coming offseason (or now) for additions at RB, OL, DL, CB, and Safety… who are current BAMFs in the league and what do they have in common that we can observe in college football scouting, combine, and reports to ID these guys. Or are any of them available?
Do you consider Ramsey a BAMF? He seems to have a bit of a dog in him… but for the cost ($ and draft comp) seems high for the player. But if the man impacts the psychology of the entire team? That’s one of those intangibles that it’s tough to put a price tag on…
Just my thoughts after reading the post
The players are surely out there. I mean, between 2010-2013 I don’t think many of us knew what was to come with Kam, Marshawn, Clemons, Sherman etc. They found those players. I’d be mightily surprised if there aren’t any out there now. Although as a mere blogger I can’t say I have the answers on who might be a collection of targets to fit the description. I just know the Seahawks need to find some of those types.
Do you think it Is the mindset of our younger players or the lack of vets on the team that are BAMF, like Lawyer Milloy. Kam, Sherm, and Thomas learned under him.
That’s a good question. They probably do lack a Milloy, Chris Clemons or Red Bryant type.
Shoulda singed Eric Weddle then. Or kept Earl.
A Ravens fan I know earlier wasn’t exactly very happy with Earl’s play so far. We all know the situation there by now. Weddle — not sure he’s the solution. Ageing and expensive.
How far back can you trace the warning signs? For me, with the end of LOB and way it ended I figured it was going to take a couple years to rebuild. You needed a 2013 team to win a super bowl, you lost more players from that team faster than could be replaced. That’s called regression, plane and simple. And they did, each year following ‘13.
More projects failed than panned out. Following lynch retiring, there was Christine Michael, Rawls, Davis, Turbin, Alex Collins, JD mcKissic, CJ spiller, CJ prosise, Eddie lacy, Chris Carson, and finally Rashaad penny who they spent a first round pick on. That’s 11 RBs have come in since lynch left and some names I left out. Never mind going through the oline misses, it would take all night.
With the loss of the players of the LOB do you think Pete has also changed the defensive philosophy a bit?
With Sherman I felt like the team was playing a lot more press coverage. I think this is also part of the lost physicality you mentioned, challenging receivers from the start of every play. Now it seems to me we are playing a lot more zone and not pressing at the line. Do you think this is because Pete is adapting to the loss of talent in the backfield?
I think they’ve adapted certain coverages for the players they have but I think the overall philosophy is the same.
Can’t argue with what you laid out here Rob. The stars today on the team don’t play with the same attitude, and it’s impacting outcomes. Two thoughts:
1. What other team in the NFL has a bunch of BAMFs? Is it possible the league’s flight to safety and avoidance of locker room PR mess have rendered a similar impotent impact across teams?
2. I’m still of belief the team’s issues sit primarily on coaching. Lack of tone-setters is up on the list for me, but coaches played a role there too. The old axiom: what the tape shows is either being coached or allowed.
In fairness, there weren’t many teams with a huge collection of BAMF’s in 2013 either. The Seahawks found those players. It’s certainly possible that the well has run dry in that regard. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that the kind of player I’m talking about simply hasn’t been available — at least in the areas they’ve picked or with the money they’ve had available to spend.
Certainly I can’t sit here and list 10 guys they should’ve taken and things would be fine.
But I don’t think this is a safety issue. The Seahawks don’t need a bunch of Vontaze Burfict types. They need guys who are physically intimidating.
On your second point — I’d say it’s fine to point to coaching. But fans do have a tendency to blame coaches for all the problems and then praise players for all the successes. And there have overwhelmingly been more positives than negatives with these coaches.
I heard an announcer a couple weeks ago bring up an interesting thought. It used to be said if a receiver got laid out or decapitated, it was a bad throw by the QB, shouldn’t have made that throw. QBs were even coached on what throws never to make to avoid that risk. Same with standing too long in the pocket and getting drilled, QBs fault. The last few years the responsibility has shifted to the Defenders to pull up. The movement to protect QBs could be having a long term impact on the type of risk taking defensive players take that make them intimidating.
I think the Hawks have great coaches, Pete is Top 5 any given year, no doubt. I also am speculating the players are being coached a certain way that limits the type of plays/players you reference. I’d expect them to make the same observation that you do and start to loosen the leash.
Good points! The game has changed so much in recent years. Would Cam be hit with unnecessary roughness every time he hit someone in today’s game? He was a throwback player in his time, now he’s a relic of a bye gone era. The modern NFL has no use for BAMF’s and doesn’t want them hurting the diva QBs. Personally, I hate the way the game has changed, but after the CTS scandal broke it was inevitable.
Ironically,
I woke up missing Marshawn Lynch this morning as well.
I hated the stupid errors that lost this game. At the same time, I love how awesome Wilson and Lockett are playing this year. But I’m super disappointed in Carson and his O-Line right now. …I had such high hopes that they were going to impose their wills this year, and now I’m not seeing it.
My hope is for Fluker to start smashing people. But with this fumbling issue – I’m afraid that no one has the confidence that Carson is the answer. His fumbles go against the entire team philosophy. And no one feels quite right about promoting a fumbler, I’m afraid. …Lynch would have rallied all of them. Lynch would instill belief in every one of these blockers that he’d honor their aggression.
I loved that his TD celebrations often were just simply him shaking the hands of the O-Line. Respect.
The magic of Wilson combined with the brute force and talent of Marshawn was a sensational combination.
Lynch and Kam between them did so much to connect the two units too. They need that back.
I think this team misses Jarren Reed more than they anticipated. He fits that role.
Jarran Reed is very talented and tough. But no opponent has a sleepless night facing him. Not like Marshawn and Kam.
When our defense is at its peak … opponents were worried and it helped us play our brand of defense with simple scheme and no wrinkles nothing complex to help play fast. It might be time for Pete to bite the bullet (till he gets BAMF on defense) and keep mixing up calls for opposing QB and players to read pre-snap and game to game.
I agree that Reed is an alpha dog that’s sorely missed. I’ve noticed that since his rookie year he’s the guy on the sidelines either rallying the troops or quieting the hysteria. We miss him bad; he’s our Red Bryant type. I’m hoping Carson fixes this fumbling issue and he can be our Marshawn and hopefully Blair can be our enforcer on the back end like Kam was. I hate what I’m seeing from the defense with the missed tackles. Last year our same secondary was making some huge hits so hopefully they get back to that.
Probably what bugs me the most was the lack of sacks and/or turnovers forced on Bridgewater. Gotta give it to him for not getting intimated, especially in Seattle. But that was a winnable game, especially moreso with Brees injured. Is it bad that had Brees played and we still lost I’m not too upset versus getting beat by Bridgewater-led team? Payton hardly used Hill at qb so all the gadget plays didn’t burn us. It was all us shooting ourselves in the foot.
Defense didn’t lose this game. And the offense didn’t lose this game.
The Special Teams lost this game.
However, neither the offense nor the defense won this game – and they could have….even with the horrific diaper dirtying done by the Teams.
It’s a lot harder to generate pressure on a quarterback when you spot him 20 points on miscues.
And when the OC/HC has a game plan suited to the qb talent wherein it’s dink and dunk with 2.55 avg. time for release. Well, that and an outstanding rb.
I agree they’re missing the edge but I don’t think it was solely a couple key players setting the tone. It was a team-wide feeling that pervaded the locker room that doesn’t appear to on the current roster. And it may have been lightning in a bottle and impossible to replicate in today’s kinder gentler NFL.
Giacomini, rescued from the scrap heap, not standing down from anyone. Occasionally goading a hot headed DL into a dumb penalty and cleaning off the pile.
Sweezy, a converted DL starting at RG week 1, with a chip on his shoulder.
Unger, a heart and soul type leader at Center (traded for a TE who can’t block. The Hawks traded a 1 ton dumptruck for a sleek Ferrari)
Mike Rob, a FB who got cut and resigned more times than you can count, but always answered the bell.
Tate, the mighty might who never went down on the first hit and was always looking for someone to lay out with a block when he didn’t have the ball (#seanleeface)
Baldwin, undrafted packing his things in his car and trekking up to Seattle, who grew into a fierce competitor and earned the nickname ADB.
Clemons, traded to Seattle for a bag of magic beans, pissed off for greatness. Telling a cocky Sherman who was crowing about a great play he made to shut the hell up and line up for the next play.
Browner, CFL rescue dog, not backing down from anyone. Manhandling sleek receivers until they submitted.
Those are all great examples of former Hawk players who had a chip on their shoulders. These guys gave everything they had to prove they belonged, and help the team establish a “we’re tougher than you” attitude.
Tone setting replacements for each of these guys may not be on the team currently, or they need some time to develop into that type of role. Examples might be Metcalf and Blair, but rookies generally need a bit of time to find themselves, learn the ropes, and then assume a lead dog role. Most of the guys you mentioned didn’t fill that role immediately either.
That said, I surely expected that linemen like Fluker or Brown might be those kinds of guys, but quickly losing confidence in that now.
Agree / 100.
Often overlooked is how smart those BAMFs were. Marshawn, Kam, Sherm, Bennett, all smart dogs.
Wondering if we have too many players playing out their last contracts or looking for next…
I also wonder if players lose some of their competitive edge, that need to prove themselves, once they get the big payday? Do you play the same when you’re not as hungry for the big 2nd, 3rd contract anymore? Not sure, maybe players who start out as BAMFs, always are and we just don’t have enough of them!
Agree.
I don’t think Griffin, Flowers, Hill, Thompson, McDougald will ever be BAMFs. Can live with more skill, less dog, at CB, but FS and SS need some competition. Hopefully, eventually, Amadi and Blair develop, take over FS and SS, respectively.
Currently, Legion Of Nice.
Legion of Whom??
That play where Griffin hits Kamira on the 8 and is dragged to the one while on the ground. Just a bunch of pussies.
What a horror show last night was, Its kind of a shame they aren’t playing on a Thursday this week because having this loss hang over me for a whole week is sickening.
On this article, might it be time to introduce Marquise Blair to a starting role? He’s going to take his lumps and give up some plays, but that’s happening regardless. This team needs some attitude and some playmaking ability in the secondary.
This article is right on point. There is no more fear or intimidation on this team. Good players, even a few great ones. But no fear. They don’t play angry.
Clowney being a non factor for two straight games worries me. Is it Ken or Clowney? This is not elite talent on display..JAG
No question on Clowney, he’s been a non-factor after a pretty good start in the first game. We need him to be dominant more often than not. Might expand your thought to the entire dline during yesterday’s game though. Very little pressure from anyone and extremely poor tackling (entire defense).
Agreed on entire Dline. Clowney and Ansah are the only elite talent on the line and we would expect them to make plays irrespective of how others on the line play. Ansah’s first game coming back from injury will get a pass for now.
I’ve gone back and forth in my mind about the BAMF factor, as you put it. I still tend to prefer the word leadership to BAMF. That’s just me.
The Hawks are lacking in the leadership factor to me now. There are different ways a player can be a leader. But a few things stand out about it to me. Leaders elevate the play of their fellow players by attitude and example. This could be by being an intimidating hitter (Cam), by being a cold blooded assassin (RW), by being a brash and vocal personality who backs it up with his play (Sherman), or by being a punishing runner (Lynch). Such leaders almost embarrass their fellow players into stepping up and exceeding what they thought they were capable of doing. They instill confidence in a team, and fear and respect in their opponents. They take real ownership and responsibility for the performance of the team, and expect the same of their fellow players.
I totally agree that the leadership factor on our SB teams was more of the pure bad arse variety. And it certainly worked. And I agree that we sure could use a few more intimidating players on the field, and I hope that Blair and Clowney can provide some more of that.
But I’d just settle now for any players to step up more into a leadership role on a consistent basis, however that may present itself. Embarrass our team into playing harder, edgier, smarter, etc…
Anyway…I do get what you’re saying, and would like some more of that.
Leadership and BAMF are 2 totally different things, like comparing Lennox Lewis (no offense, Rob) to Mike Tyson.
My point is that I’m not completely sold on the idea that they are. I’m open-minded about it, but certainly not sold on it.
Paul,
I would just put BAMF under the context of, those 2013 Hawks just made teams uncomfortable to play against. “Oh no, we have to play the Hawks!”. You could see it in nearly every game. Intimidation is a very real thing in football, more so than many sports. Those bonecrushing hits Kam leveled against WRs, RBs led to turnovers. The Saints came into our place with a mediocre QB and did their thing like it was no big deal, that’s a problem.
I was a teacher and did a bunch of writing in past incarnations. It’s mostly a semantic thing with me. The definition of BAMF (is there one?) as it pertains to football is kind of swishy term. It seems to mean different things to different people. Some people, as it pertains to defense, define it as a hard intimidating hitter. If that’s the definition of it, fine. But if so, I wouldn’t call either Sherman or Earl a BAMF. Sherman, for instance, may be a great CB, and a more aggressive and better tackler for a CB; but I don’t think he put the fear of God into receivers like a Cam in this way. Same for Earl.
So if Sherman is to be considered a BAMF, then you have to enlarge the term to include, amongst other things, being vocally brash and almost arrogantly confident in attitude.
Fine. But where does it stop? It can even mean different things to different people based upon offense or defense, or particular position. How is a QB a BAMF? How is a WR a BAMF? Even a CB?
It’s just a swishy, ill defined term to me. That’s all. A semantic thing.
I think you’re overthinking it.
The world came crashing down yesterday. I had apocalyptic visions of PC running for his life… drenched, old, and bloodied. I had the cold sweats, the night sweats, and the meat sweats. I’ll never watch another game. I’ll fully disengage from SDB. I’ll cut myself off from all things PCJS, all things Seattle, all things I love. It just simply hurts too much… my insides collapsing into a dark, lifeless, unknown void… and every week. It is over – why go on.
But somehow, theatrically, the metaphorical sun broke this morning. Looking back at yesterday’s game, I feel like a little weight has been lifted from my mossy shoulders and that fantasy and reality have settled into their comfortable and respective corners. Corners that may actually be closer than originally assessed only twelve hours ago. We beat ourselves, at home, to underdogs. That game sucked for fans. But maybe there’s a lesson in all of this, we’ll have to wait until next week to understand those lessons… but we’re still here, I’m still here.
We have our health. We have our Pete. Now, we just need our Ramsey (BAMF).
Go Hawks!
Yesterday was a ‘beat the traffic’ game.
Before Seattle traded for Clowney, I brought up (for this specific reason so far) that under PC/JS they target 95% of the time pure, hand in the dirt, 4-3 rush ends.
Clowney ain’t that. Never has been. Never will. You gotta get creative with his type and PC’s defense has never been exotic. Outside of starting the trend for bigger, longer corners.
This isn’t say to Clowney can’t get going. Rather, through the first few weeks he hasn’t exactly been a seamless fit.
Clark rushed from a stand up position frequently.
We also need to remember that New Orleans O-Line is definitely one of the best in the league.
Also, if Blair is healthy I think this next game would be a great time to get him more game experience. I did see him in there on a few plays Sunday
How good is Will Dissly? God damn.
He’s a legit pro bowl candidate. Not only is he a clutch WR, but his block on RW’s first rushing TD was crucial. He doesn’t make that block, Wilson probably doesn’t score.
It may be that they have the needed personnel to produce that edge, if they play to their capabilities. Currently the team is not at full strength. They are still learning how to play with one another, where each ones strengths and weaknesses are being assessed, especially the DL group. Coaches have room for improvement in order to place players in the position to succeed. But, it is still early.
Focusing on the leadership of each position group will help identify the impetus that could spark that needed edge for the entire team. One thing that could help the ST group is having their vocal leader, and captain. There is a reason Thorpe was voted by the team as such. His leadership was missed by that group, vocally as well as physically on the field.
KJ is one that may just step to the fore and take that role of setting the tone, by bringing that edge to his game. Punishing those crossing the middle is something he’s done as part of his game in the past. It just takes one to set that edge in motion.
Bam Bam was the vital ingredient for the LOB, that brought the boom. But, that group will never be duplicated. The focus for this group to be successful is to play with an edge, a fire to take no prisoners.
This is within their reach to achieve in each group.
The area of concern that may not reach it’s potential is the DB group. Unless there is a change in the back end with an influx of a new ingredient at CB & safety, they may continue to be picked apart. Could it be (2) rookies, Ugo & Blair, inserted to spark a change and bring that edge? It may be too soon for that to come to fruition. BMac and Flowers have to step up to the challenge in bringing that edge to the DBs.
The OL has to play to their potential, the right side in particular. If they stay healthy, their output will improve, and a consistent run game will improve.
By in large, there is no reason to throw up are hands at this point. It’s still earlier.
although i believe that a ground and pound offense is ideal for playoff runs, i agree with rob that this team does not have the “right” players to institute said offense. they will never find another marshawn or kam…. it’s delusional to attempt it. obviously some fans… and maybe carrol himself keep writing this sad delusional narrative that they need to clone the lob. the nfl took notice… they know how to play the read option… they know how to make mince meat out of carrol’s tampa 2 defense… despite a “hall of fame” linebacker. the wagner signing for me is regretful. they committed a cardinal sin in the modern day salary cap… and gave an aging and increasingly ineffective player that dreaded third contract. hey we’re 2-1… paper tigers… but let’s adjust… no huddle offense all the time… it fits procise and penny. let’s stop this three linebacker base defense… put bobby on the bench on third down… kendricks is better at this point in passing situations.
I read a lot on how Shaquill Griffin has improved, I just don’t see it. To my admittedly unprofessional eye he plays soft, does not anticipate the pass, and is a subpar a tackler in run support on the edge.
Man do I miss Sherman.
Rob I agree completely with your take and have been thinking the same thing myself.
I am not sure the Hawks will ever get back to being that type of team or if that type of team is even possible in todays NFL. Given the rules and officiating it seems like physical football where teams impose their will via physicality and toughness seem like a thing of the past.
Is there a team in todays NFL you can think of who scares anyone physically? I cant think of one personally.
I think the Bears. Their defense last year was nasty. Imagine a Marshawn type on offense with that mob.
Yes the Bears would definitely be the closest thing to that type of intimidating defense.
Buffalo is very rugged defensively. Also the Ravens still play that way. Don’t allow one road game against Mahomes to skew perspective.
Baltimore, Buffalo and Chicago were the only 3 teams in the league last year to allows less than 300 yards per game on average.
However, the best defense in the league is New England. Somehow not many people want to accept that, since the transition came late last season and without warning, plus it is not their long term reputation. The Patriots have never sustained defense like this during the Belichick era. Obviously it’s more smarts than brute force, but the smarts and versatility are far beyond any other team in the league.
Logically it has to level out at some point. At this point, giving up a field goal in the first half of any game would qualify as leveling out. That’s how quietly dominant it has been. Getting Jamie Collins back to pair with Van Noy, etc. has really been a boost.
I think the Ravens D plays like that. They have solid LBs, good DL and talent in the secondary
I can’t disagree more with the notion that a collection of BAMF’s is more important than preparation and execution.
A team that has less talent but is better prepared and executes the game plan at a high level will regularly beat a team full of BAMF’s.
This fan base repeatedly exercises poor starts to seasons and games because the franchise finds a way to lose by less than seven points and wins enough to be above the middle of the pack.
This franchise has a great knack for beating itself. No team is good enough to gift their opponents two scores early in the game and expect to come back. But this team does it week after week. Perhaps not 14 points but it does with penalties, poor clock management, bad situational awareness, and just generally being less prepared than their opponents.
As a coach, there is nothing more infuriating than beating yourself. Constantly making unforced mistakes that make it harder to win. Making the opponents life easy by committing penalty after penalty, losing the field position battle, losing the turnover battle, putting yourselves in the hole and continuing to dig.
This organization preaches always compete and that is a terrific sound bite but I would rather have a side that always executes.
There isn’t a single word in the piece I wrote that says a collection of BAMF’s is more important than preparation and execution.
It’s possible to have both.
As I see it the BAMF attitude is absolutely missing. You see it with the new LBs getting dragged 3-4 yards on a heads up tackle, you see it with the safeties trying to tip or make a clean tackle rather than saying “that should be MY ball”. Kendricks brings it with his close on underneath routes, Wagner brings it on interior plays but then I watch him give 30 yards on a screen where Bam Bam would have gotten mad and blown up the blocker just to stop the train.
I was saying this to a friend tongue in cheek (sort of) during the game that Schneider should be on the phone hunting down Marshawn and offering him 5 mil to come back. Seattle desperately needs a reliable hard nosed back right now. Mike Davis would have been getting a lot of carries yesterday after the Carson fumble.
The Seahawks once again made me have to have a sit down with myself to reign in expectations for this season. When your team that only thrives in the post season with bye weeks and home field advantage gives away a home game against a backup QB, it’s time to lower the meter down to Husky football level.
Finally, Pete game plans for tight games where margin for error is limited. Can he adjust this mentality some after seeing the makeup of his squad? What’s up with Dickson? He was inconsistent in the pre-season and its carried over these first 3 games…..might he have a leg issue not being mentioned?
Thank goodness.
Thanks Sea mode: You answered my question. I was concerned about Duane Brown. Hopefully he is ok.
Caught some of the Rams game last night, mostly the second half. Baker was certainly running around a lot avoiding the rush. That’s going to be a tough game for us, at home or not. We really need to take care of business against Arizona next week, get to 3-1 before our next three games against the Rams and Ravens at home, and Cleveland on the road. We’ve had our stinker of a game where everything seemed to go wrong and we could never generate any momentum.
Just beat Arizona. Anyway. Anyhow. It ain’t get easier in the weeks ahead.
Fortunately for us, we should have no trouble disposing of Arizona. They are god awful.
I hate using them as an example or even saying, ‘well they did it. Why can’t everyone else?’ But it amazes me how other teams haven’t changed their coverage looks after the 15 second mark on the play clock against the Rams like NE did in the SB. You can clearly see Jared Goff staring at the defense as Sean McVay figures out for him what he’s looking at.
And to me it seems like Baker isn’t anticipating anything. He’s waiting for something to happen.
As pertaining to just yesterday, to use a baseball term I think they suffered from some bad BABIP. In other words a little bit of bad luck. Throw out all of the stats and win pct in September and they just had the tide turn against them and were never able to get on track. This is in no way a dismissal of the comedy of error that ensued but it happens. It is a message best received earlier in the season than later. It was not until after game 4 last year that we gained some traction in the run game and began more aptly adjusting the defense to the opponent. It is the specialty of this coaching staff to coach up talent to the best of their ability. This staff has a good track record of it.
As for the BAMF question, i guess I’d ask who are the BAMFs across the league? Donald, Kuechly, Watt? I think we are living in a time of the super athlete are far capable of matching stats to Kam’s tackles and Lynch’s YPC. Sometimes I think this is where Bobby is. But it is devoid of impact beyond that. Lack of intimidation or aura. This may be an old man type of take (though im in my 30s) but i think its how the game is being played and policed that is causing some issue. Part of being a BAMF in football is being tough and imposing. A unmoved constant in the game. It is hard to replicate that when a RB is pulled for a 3rd down back every time its longer than 3rd and 5. Its hard to know what imposing your will as a RB feels like in a spread attack where running is a change of pace. Its hard to get into the road grater mode as an offensive lineman when there is minimal contact in practice through August. Maybe that’s why we didn’t see the running game get going until week 5 this year, and have a slow start this year. Has the stricter and sometimes hazy targeting rules made enforcer types more liable to allow the catch and just make the tackle rather than make the hit and put the fear in a guy crossing the middle?
I see many players that are specimens but lack that infectious quality to raise both their own and others play. Not to say these players are extinct, but much harder to find. With all that has transpired since 2011 its easy to forget what a special time/team it was.
I forget who said it, Bennett or Sherman maybe, that the NFL is trending toward ‘flag football’. That seems to be ringing true.
To me it’s all the penalties and game stoppages. I want some more discretion from the officials. You don’t have to throw a holding flag if it’s clearly away from the play. You don’t have to call PI when the ball’s virtually uncatchable or the defenders hands aren’t truly impeding the outcome of the play. I’d just like a little more discretion before pulling out the yellow flag.
I completely disagree regarding the BABIP reference. If anything, this team is the guy who strikes out 200 times a year but somehow hits 280. They are built on such a narrow margin of error, which is the biggest source of my frustration. They literally play the game as if they are going to hit a 3 run homer in the 9th inning to pull out the victory.
Weirdly, this team reminds me a lot of the UW. A lot of talent, but nobody is afraid to play them. That used to be Seahawk football. Seahawks football is now play sloppy for 40 minutes and hope RW makes “the play” to win it.
This style is not a prerequisite for a championship. Many teams have won many different ways. A more common theme may be execution or resilience. But on a Pete Carroll team that runs a base defense and a run first, play action/vertical pass game, having some BAMFs that elevate simple concepts beyond the norm may be more necessary than on any other team.
Maybe. What is a BAMF again? And where can we find one?
At one point in time, teams that played the Seahawks would lose the next week and lose by double figures. This was due to how physical the Seahawks were from the Oline and the running game to the Defense and flying to the ball or absolutely destroying the blocker in front of them.
That is what my opinion of BAMF are. Players that make you feel them the day after the game. Seattle doesn’t have any of those types of players.
And it’s not just the big time players, it’s the role players like Tony McDaniel, Alan Branch and Red Bryant , Heath Farwell, Chris Maragos and Jeron Johnson on special teams, Byron Maxwell, Paul McQuistan, Breno Giacomini, Zach Miller and his blocking, Mike Rob on both offense and ST.
I think you are spot on about the attitude/mentality. It’s not there. Furthermore, Pete is managing games with the team he wishes he had, not the one he actually has.
Quite frankly, we don’t have the personnel to the play the type of football he wants to play. So what we continue to see is head scratching performance for 2-3 quarters, every game. This team is good…but that’s all they are. They are actually in a terrible spot in this regard, because my take is you either want to be great/precipice of great or bad (so you can rebuild).
We are a good team, not actually a challenger for the Super Bowl that is continually bailed out by a miraculous QB. When he doesn’t pull off an insane play, we usually lose – as was the case yesterday. The most frustrating thing for me – where’s the vaunted Carroll defense? When’s the last time we actually fielded a bad ass defense that either intimidates other teams or makes plays? They don’t make plays, period. They are just kind of a meh unit – not bad, but certainly not great either. We’ve now played 3 middling QBs who have looked extremely confident against this team (I intentionally left off Roethlisberger who played with a torn elbow).
It’s hard to argue with that. Some extremely fair points there.
“we don’t have the personnel to the play the type of football he wants to play”
That’s the thing right there. There’s either a stubbornness to Pete or an inability to adapt to what actually is sometimes. Additionally, his teams often play with a degree of sloppiness making it critical to have a buffer in the form of a talent advantage.
I like your post Rob and some of Matt’s points resonate.
We are defo still in rebuild mode and PCJS and the franchise are trying to piece things together.
Guys are being asked to learn and play a system but it takes time. It took LOB a good amount of time to truly dominate and win a SB.
I truly believe in Carroll’s philosophy but at the moment they are neither up to speed nor do we have enough talent/ BAMFs yet.
What’s hard is comparing that SB team to now, it was a black swan event that will be very tough to duplicate in terms of putting all those pieces together. When we were good, we dominated and could squeeze out victories by the smallest of margins through what seemed like sheer will. But it wasn’t just will, they played together – smart, tough reliable football. And they had lots of close games even with all that talent. And that team also.started slow every year, it also lost its way plenty of times and grew as a team to peak at the right times.
I think it can happened again, lightening striking twice but it’s going to take a lot more work, a lot more seasoning, a great deal of fortune in finding the right guys and rebuild this team to a contender once again. Yes I agree we need more BAMFs. But I also think we need to trust the process involved in building a team.
That’s fair. Before the season started it felt like they needed another off-season.
You mentioned somewhere in a past article who dogs might be. It’s not just brute force, though that always helps. Dissly, Fluker, Britt, Ifedi, Blair. DK though soft spoken can be that.
It’s also not necesarrily the menacing loud type, but his looks Gronk like:
https://twitter.com/TomBrady/status/1175917825187299328
Brady can be a choir boy, but also a killer:
https://twitter.com/TomBrady/status/1175917825187299328
Russell I like him just the way he is, don’t try to be someone else.
Ramsey on the other hand is a dog. For al the pros and cons to a trade, he is a game changer in the secondary. Without getting into the fact that compensation is very expensive, one of the benefits of his contract is that you know you are paying one of the top 3 at his position. Regardless of what your standing is on the talent scale, a player whose contract expires who is playing at relatively high level will get paid accordingly or even at a slight increment to the last guy paid at his position.
So sometimes 11th best player at a position gets a top 3 contract. Better to pay a top 3 player a top 3 contract if you catch my drift.
On the Gronk like first tweet reference, I meant to put this Kittle related tweet. Not the Brady one.
https://twitter.com/49ers/status/1175938254584987649
Hawks cut Polite off the PS.
Shame… but not unexpected. It was an extended trial after all.
I came into this season with no illusions of grandeur. Knew there would be some clunkers like this one and I’m not really blaming the coaching staff or anything. There are some days where you’re just not firing on any cylinders and this was one of them. Get the young guys some experience and thats really a win by itself. I think with another draft to supplement the DL and secondary and next year the Hawks might be able to make some noise. If we go 10-6 or 11-5 and make it as a wild card we could still do some damage in the playoffs. We have a winning formula and I have faith that the defense will only continue to improve, especially when we have a headhunter like Blair back in the fold. Losing sucks, but its not the end of the season personally..
Has there been any reporting on Michael Dickson? His yardage numbers are down from last year a little but it feels like his play has really dropped off. I haven’t closely watched every punt but those pin him to the sideline punts are few and far between and I don’t seem to recall many ‘pin them deep’ punts this year, if any. Feels like the Hawks had a weapon last year and this year, he’s taken a step back.
He is definitely just average this year, nothing special. Hard to tell if it’s him or the crappy special teams coach making him worse. Meanwhile that Saints punter was impressive.
He’s been off all season, including pre season.
terry mclaurin showing a lot tonight on the losing side… at #33 wouldn’t have been so bad, or anywhere before the Skins selected him in the 3rd. Very early returns, but beats a healthy scratch with their top pick.
https://seahawksdraftblog.com/new-mock-draft-17th-february
I see Crabtree is now available at WR. I think Russ could use a security blanket (he was said to have the best hands in the league) and I think he would be an improvement over Jaron Brown – who isn’t doing anything (literally 0 catches).
Thoughts?
Go Hawks!!
Crabtree’s now a less than mediocre receiver.
Speaking of BAMFs I said before Alvin Kamara is Marshon Lynch and he won that game for the saints.
Then their front line.You gotta give the Saints credit.
I think it’s ludicrous to berate Carrol or the coaches. One, they have bad days too.
Two, For heavens sake they have 100 wins in 10 years. You do the math.Isn’t it the second most after you know who.
I don’t get it, Yes it was frustrating as all get out, but they have had these types of games every year, even with all the BAMFS. You know what else? Every team has games like this,everyone.
I love this site and all of Robs writing and the intelligent commentary but some need to slow their arm chair GM pontificating that Pete is coaching like he doesn’t recognize his personnel isn’t from 2014.
Yes they are good but it takes time to gel, as ukhawk said.
Despite all the hand wringing, and yes st’s is the third leg to a successful team their defence only gave up 19 points.
Not a fan of nostalgia. Those guys are gone. How many BAMFs has Belichick had over the years? Rodney Harrison, maybe? Moss? But most of the time they have guys that play assignment correct football. Take it from a Miami Hurricanes fan, attitude and swag isn’t worth a damn without proper Xs and Os. The university that invented swag and the turnover chain and all that garbage hasn’t beaten a proper opponent in over a decade, despite having BAMFs throughout their roster.
You’ll say it’s not mutually exclusive but we didn’t lose Sunday because we lacked a Lynch, we lost because of stupid mistakes. Belichick = Mind over spirit. Carroll = Spirit over mind. We hear all this chatter about toughness and attitude and playing with an edge and all that amorphous immeasurable nonsense while the teams that win simply out-execute their opponent. Not because they have more “gangstas”.
This whole appeal for BAMFs hearkens back to Jim Mora’ Jr’s: ” We need more dirtbags” excrement.
Anyway, I love Pete and he’ll right the ship, but he’s strategically impaired at times. His teams play hard, but occasionally not smart, and his adjustments are seeming to come a bit too slowly lately.
I’m a Canes fan also. That program had 7 first round picks during the 1970s with miserable teams, and a whopping 4 first round picks in the decade of the 2010s.
Contrast to 2004, when Miami had 6 first round picks in that draft alone.
The elite talent simply hasn’t been there.
The Seahawk era was awesome but I’m shocked that anyone believed it was sustainable once that generation passed. Bottom line, in the NFL it’s simply easier to outscore people during this era. Along those lines, every season I am worried about protecting the 1972 Dolphins as unbeaten unique. That feat is far less impossible in this era, given such ridiculous disparity, rules coddling the offense, and only 6 division games. The three teams I was concerned about this season were Kansas City, the Rams, and New England…in that order. Not surprisingly, none of them have lost. At least I have been taking advantage from a betting standpoint.
Once Wilson was established as a star but Lynch was gone, Carroll and Schneider should have sensed quickly that their best path was to jettison the prior emphasis and prioritize an offense dependable for 30+ points per game. It probably would have fallen short but given current rules and salary cap realities, there’s a far greater chance via that type of approach than somehow expecting a successful rerun of the 2013 blueprint.
Awsi, The U consistently had top ranked recruiting classes during that period. We just haven’t had the coaching and emphasis on development. Plenty of emphasis on swag and attitude but little on discipline and technique. How many 4-5* recruits busted at UM and then went on to be decent pros after they were properly coached up?
Regarding “outscoring” your opponents, as a Dolphins fan I’m sure you recall the Marino years. No running game, no defense (Olivadotti, ugh), no emphasis on time of possession. Just quick strikes from Marino to Duper or Clayton or Cefalo or Fryar. How did that work out? You need balance in the NFL. Carroll’s emphasis on the run, time of possession, strong D, wins. Shootouts like Atlanta/NE a couple years ago are the exception. Usually the one-dimensional playoff teams are curb stomped like Denver was. Balance wins.
They lost because of mistakes, yes. They won’t be a true contender though until they find a greater physical edge considering the way they’ve chosen to play.
It doesn’t matter what NE have done. There’s not only one way to win.
Exactly. NE doesn’t need a bunch of BAMFs because that’s not how they play football. The Seahawks/Pete Carroll are *specifically* trying to play an old school brand of smash mouth football…the problem is – they don’t have the “smash” part of that equation.
I’m a baseball guy and will use a baseball analogy – if you want a team that lives off HRs, then you need power hitters. If you want to play small ball – you gotta find guys who can get on base and do all the little things right.
Pete, God bless him, wants to play a certain way and he just doesn’t have the roster. If you want to win off the run game and defense…well – you’re not going to win a ton of games if those are average-slightly above average units. What he has now is a dynamic QB with 3 really good pass catchers who complement each other well (Lockett, DK, Dissly). He has a stagnant run game behind a bad OL. He has a defense that is pretty good but doesn’t create turnovers or make plays. This is the team he has. So what he has decided to do is to lean on his average chess pieces while mitigating the big dogs he has out of stubbornness to play a certain brand of football. I said it above, but the margin of error is so small, that every game really comes down to “did Russell make that magical play?” If not, they usually lose.
This is my source of frustration with Pete. He is a damn good coach, but not a great one. A great coach understands what his team can do and he maximizes the margin of error. Pete seemingly wants to “feel it out” for up to 40 mins a game and this style usually portends to his team playing to the level of competition – which is not always a bad thing. The problem is, he is so reliant on the 3 run homer in the 9th inning (think a big TD play, turnover) that he forgets about the other 8 innings where he has a dynamic enough offense to simply put their opponents behind the 8 ball and can close out games the way he really wants to – via the run game.
I’m all about running the football – but let’s not run the football just to run the football. The idea is to score points. Get points on the board and when the time is right, grind out the wins and shorten the clock that way. Bottom line, he makes winning look really difficult. And it is…but I’m getting tired of watching a team think they have the 85 Bears Defense with Charlie Whitehurst at QB. Use the team you have, Pete!
Put in Blair ASAP. I also want an Avril type of player. QJeff is OK, but not that distruptive. I like Clowney, but he’s just long and lean and fast, not that strong tone setter imo.
I would also like a Carson-like RB to challenge Chris and maybe split reps. Penny is more of a 3rd down back, outside runner. I want someone like Chubb or Ingram
This next game would be perfect to get Blair a lot of snaps. He needs game experience and we need to see him in action. Growing pains will happen but it’s why you drafted him in the first place, to get intimidation into your secondary.
Plying a rookie meaningful snaps who has been out of position and can’t quite be trusted yet against a team that chucks it all over the field sounds like a terrible idea
Anyone remember Earl’s rookie year? Lots of mistakes.
Every team “chucks it all over the field”. At some point he needs baptism by fire. It’s inevitable and needed.
Actually, QJeff has one of the highest pressure %’s in the league, top 15 I believe.
QJeff has been one of the most dynamic DL in the NFL to start the season. He is outstanding and is playing his way into a nice contract.
Not sure why the defense gets so maligned around these parts. I assume it’s because historically that’s what a Carroll coached team is all about. Get rid of the 14 points given to them by fumble and punt return and that’s 19 allowed by the defense. Of those 19 had our offense not been such a crap show and give NO excellent field position we are probably closer 14 points allowed. In todays NFL any franchise would be ecstatic about that.
But the offense…..
The offseason rhetoric was the offense would have to carry this team. The O-line was going to be one of the best in the league. The offense has been hot garbage except for the last two quarters at Pittsburgh. Through 12 quarters they have played 2 good ones. The blueprint was there in those two quarters but they quickly reverted to the same old same old against NO. Seattle is averaging 14 points through 3 quarters and if you take out that garbage TD at end of NO game about 22.7 per game. The top 5 offenses are averaging 32+ per game. Seattles offense is definitely middle of the pack at best.
If Seattle’s offense steps up and starts averaging closer to 21 through 3 quarters and 28-30 a game by end of season then it will be an interesting finish to the season. If not they are going nowhere.
Where are the hits? The pressures? The turnovers?
That’s my issue with the defense.
Yeah I loved that intimidating era of hits, pressures and turnovers. But for a team built around its quarterback this offense is not getting it done. And that’s hanging the defense out more than it should.
I’m not ready to write this defense off yet. The Dline is just starting to get some quality players back and they need time to get in game condition. Hopefully Poona gets healthy and Reed hits the ground running. Once all those pieces are in place and in game condition the pressures and turnovers will follow. I’m fairly optimistic there. The offense not as optimistic. To long of history of slow starts and this season is just more of same.
I agree. The offense is sputtering and looks a lot more like the stalling version of previous years than the one that righted the ship in 2018.
And it’s very possible that’s hurting the defense.
But they are simply not creating any pressure, provoking any intimidation or looking remotely like forcing any turnovers. So they’re not exempt from criticism. The secondary just looks below average and the pass rush is non-existent.
Few hitters, no speed off the edge, no ball hawks in the secondary.
They drafted some hitters (Blair and Barton) and some safeties (Blair and Amadi), but seem reluctant to run them out there (prob w/ good reason: not ready).
Pete preaches the importance of competition/turnovers/takeaways, but rolls with Griffin, Flowers, McDougald, Thompson/Hill. 1 takeaway? Cognitive dissonance?
IMO, Ansah looks washed and Clowney needs to play in space to be effective. Who on the roster can consistently generate pressure? *crickets*
They can clean up the tackling, but where is the fear/intimidation? Potentially great tacklers, but few hitters. No fear.
If they don’t mix it up, I’m guessing 8-8, third in the division.
Hard to argue with a lot of that.
I think they’ll win more than eight games. I still think 10 but could see 9. The quarterback is too good and there will be some point in the season when things click for a run of games. But all of the points you make about the team are very fair. And until those issues are resolved, we can’t take this team seriously as a true contender.
Agree. 8-8 sounds harsh until you consider lack of OL depth/health and concerns with Carson/Penny/Prosise.
Expecting a game from Arizona.
Aside/related: Once healthy, when do they give Penny 15-20 carries? If not now, when?
It’s hard to make a strong argument for a better record than 8-8 right now, based on what we’ve seen through the first three games. There’s two undefeated teams in our own division right now, and we still have four games to go with them. There’s lots of tough games on the rest of the schedule as well (Philly, Bal, Atl, Min). AZ always plays us tough so no easy W’s to look forward to.
We need team-wide improvement in a hurry or its gonna be a long season!
I suspect Carson will be given another chance, based on Pete’s comments about the fumbling issue he’s had. One more fumble though and Penny will be the new #1.
Question for Rob: Just curious. If Russell Wilson was the quarterback for Andy Reid’s offense instead of Patrick Mahomes. Do you think that Russell Wilson’s numbers would be similiar to Patrick Mahomes?
No idea.
I think Russell Wilson is a sensational player. But I think Mahomes could end up being the best to ever play the game. So it’s hard to say.
Thanks Rob
Russ has certainly shown the ability to be a gunslinger, ala Mahomes, throughout his career. In the right environment, there’s no reason he couldn’t be as productive as Patrick has been so far. This may be the case
But I’m glad you said “no idea” Rob. Although he appears to be a very special talent, Mahomes is really only playing his second season, and so many things can happen over the next 5, 10, 15 years to change the trajectory of his career. Maybe people will be calling him the GOAT in 15 years, but who knows.
My hunch is with Mahomes — and I don’t think it’s even that daring to suggest this — is he’s going to be Brett Favre only with more success in terms of Championship’s. He is unreal.
I don’t know whether Russell, who is terrific, would have the same success. But I’m not sure anyone would. Mahomes is an absolutely insane talent.
This post, which I agree with, begs the question of who are the type of players in the draft who can help re-establish this identity? I think prime spots to fill this void would be RT, LG, CB, RB, S and DE. Also need to start thinking about whether we have a replacement for Brown waiting in the wings. Perhaps a collegiate all-BAMF team would be a fun exercise.
I’ll take a stab at a few. Isaiah Simmons from Clemson. Fast, angry hybrid safety from Clemson. Rob talked about Isaiah Wilson at RT. Another RT is Tristan Wirfs from Iowa. Keep an eye on that Iowa line in the future. Also Lemieux and Sewell from Oregon next year. Dylan Moses too.
Simmons reminds me of a young Cam. I’m not sure he’s as violent, but he’s a big hitter and has the same body type Cam does. The problem is that he’s a SS and so is Blair, and we just spent a 2nd rounder on Blair.
Sewell is going to be great. He’s absolutely mauling as a true sophomore.
Kam.
Never to be confused with Cam.
Yes. But I was talking about Cam Khancellor.
Apologies.
Lynch was unique and there is definitely a contingent that would spin his effect on the team and the locker room in a completely different way.
Regardless of where you fall on that, it doesn’t follow that Seattle, or any team, has to have such an overwhelming personality to galvanize the locker room.
The larger point is that guy isn’t walking through the door any time soon. Other teams are extremely successful without that guy.
Last offseason, Rob’s repeated message in the face of all the modern offenses was that there are more ways to win than just one.
Well, I think that remains true. There are more ways to win than by being the most physical team.
Right now, Seattle isn’t that team. The defense is not the big bad wolf. The OL was never as good as many wanted to believe it was and the running backs don’t hold a candle to what Lynch was on the field.
You know what Seattle does have?
A top five quarterback in a league where creative use of exactly that kind of guy is being rewarded over and over again.
There is more than one way to win in this league. It makes a lot more sense to me to build around what you do have instead playing to the strengths you used to have.
I’m not talking about Lynch’s personality. This is all about the physicality he produced on the field and the way everyone else on the team fed off that.
And yes — there are more ways to win than being the most physical team. But that’s the way this team has chosen to try to win. And they’re struggling at the moment because despite their desire to impose their will, they can’t.
Neither does any of this mean you can’t or aren’t building around the QB.
Regardless of scheme/philosophy, the team needs more competitive individuals who want to cover the best, win the route, stop the run, beat the edge, take the ball away, get the touches, etc. Where winning every battle to every game is taken personally.
Used to be the team’s core, now seems an afterthought.
I see a patchwork of new pieces that have yet to find their swagger/confidence/identity. Will the next Baldwin, Kam, Lynch, Sherm step up, lead? With this group? Doubtful.
Again, all fair points.
Sorry / meant as reply to .king.
Until Wilson turned up the Seahawks were bang average even with Lynch.
What’s changed is that teams don’t have to respect Wilson as a runner anymore. What’s the point of the read option if the qb never keeps it? 35m is the cost of Wilson not really being a running threat due to protecting him and to be fair I can understand that.
Our playbook relies heavily on the talent of our players because the scheme is abysmal. If the players cant get it done we don’t seem to have a plan b. Pete Carroll’s stubbornness is to be applauded for the success but it’s starting to hold the sehawks back.
I don’t agree his stubbornness is holding them back. This point says essentially that he has to re-think his entire ethos. And that’s an ethos that has delivered 100 wins, the teams first Super Bowl win and near enough two Super Bowl wins. The problem isn’t the plan — it’s the lack of certain parts that enable them to execute.
I not only think I they need a few certain parts but they also need to mesh new and recently acquired parts into the system, with their new teammqtes, etc.
There has been so much turnover, it takes time…and guys have been out injured, suspended, drafted, trade in
I think, you may be right.
I wonder, who is in charge when it comes to bringing in those parts?
Pure speculation: I think that they wanted the Jonathan Abram who went a couple of picks ahead of Collier. He has an edge to him and reminds me of the ‘attitude’ that the LOB used to have. I think Blair was the backup plan. Watching a bit of Hard Knocks, you can see that Abram can put some people off with his bravado, but he doesn’t lack for swagger and confidence. He would have been the vocal leader of the DB’s from day one.
I think Blair was the less brash, but still hard-hitting version that became plan B. Regardless, we went after a safety that can lay hat, which might be an attempt to get back to that ‘intimidation’ persona.
I think having a QB of the secondary is our biggest need right now and safety is the most natural position to assume that role. Hopefully Blair can be that, but he’ll need to grow into that personality. There’s a video that shows ET mic’d up, where you see how pumped he (& Sherman) got everyone and how they feed off of that.
Kevin Byard, Eddie Jackson, Derwin James, Jamal Adams, Malik Hooker. These guys are the top safeties in the league and all of them are on their rookie deals. I wouldn’t be surprised if we prioritize safety next draft. Along with RB, it seems to be one of the positions that can have the biggest year 1 impact. We have spent quite a bit of capital on the position (Lano, T2, Blair) recently however and Delpit will probably be long gone by the time we pick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ_Gq2x2y44
ET Mic’d up
In a season, where the Seahawks drafted two safeties, one with their second pick, they are still searching for another safety.
It’s ridiculous. Beyond that, actually. This is a team that skipped Taylor Rapp over Marquise Blair, who some had projected as bad as R5.
And while we are at it… from L.J. Colliers draft resume… one-year starter, slow to react, lack of quickness, dull acceleration, easy to spot, inconsistent against mobile QBs. This is not R1 material. Which translates into missing out on really good players,
This is JS trading all the way to open up opportunities, and then they draft multi-year project types. Penny is in the same league. And still, we wonder why we have no leaders on the field. Maybe they will even be good or very good players in a few years. But we have no time for projects. If we have anything to learn from NO, then it’s this.
They are wasting time. PC and RW are probably on their last contracts.
Taylor Rapp ran in the 4.7’s. I have no issue with them passing on him.
Anyone who thought Blair was a R5 talent was just wrong. We had him in round two consistently on here.
Yeah, whatever. I think, we will find out one or the other way, but we can defer that for end of season discussions. And then still you will tell me he makes it next season, and just another precious year has passed.
I see nothing special. He is a good player, but not outstanding. His 4.48 were due to his very light frame. It is predictable, that he has to add weight, and this will lead to a slow down and durability concerns. He got his clearance because some pundits attributed his constant lapses to the Utes scheme. There is a 50% chance it’s lack of football IQ, which invalidates 0.22 raw speed advantage.
Rapp was as safe a bet as you can get, a complete player. As was Byron Murphy, who you projected R1, and fell to us but we skipped.
But that was not my point. Taking a late 2nd rounder in R1 and a 3rd rounder (IMO) in R2… what does that mean? It means we have effectively passed on a real first round talent, we threw it away, and it was not the first time we do.
And here we are, debating why this team has a leadership problem, which can be narrowed down to having no locker room chiefs. We debate durability, on and on and on, while picking risky as hell players (our three top picks fall into that range).
We could also debate low impact guys, people being content to just make the 53 roster. I fail to see 110% guys like. Kam was the first to come to the VMAC, and the last to go, according to his mates. This gave him respect and the ability to take control of the team. To me, such every day work ethics cannot be tested at combine and is not spottable at Senior bowl.
You have to listen to stories about the Huskies secondary coming an hour early.
1. ‘Yeah, whatever’ isn’t how we roll in this community. When someone has taken the time to write numerous articles about a player, dismissing their view with a ‘yeah, whatever, we’ll see’ isn’t the correct response.
2. A good player is fine. He was a second round pick. If you expect ‘outstanding’ in the middle of round two it’s unrealistic. Plus he’s not even played one NFL game and you’re judging him already. It’s a good job you didn’t do that to Kam Chancellor, who redshirted his first season, or Richard Sherman, who needed Marcus Trufant and Walter Thurmond to get injuries before getting his opportunity as a rookie. Were they ‘good not outstanding’ at the time too?
3. I never argued he got clearance due to scheme. He was a violent hitter with good speed.
4. You can’t dismiss his speed because of a slight frame. Most fast players aren’t 230lbs. He’s quick. There’s no need to argue that away.
5. They’ve never taken a cornerback earlier than late R3 and Byron Murphy, as much as I liked him, isn’t the long armed outside corner they go for. Nobody should’ve expected them to take him.
You are biting on Blair, but that was not the point. I’m criticizing the pick, not the player. He is the poor soul being drafted a little to high, being expected to be the second coming of Kam or Earl or both; in reality, he doesn’t even get a snap. Being a good Ute doesn’t mean a thing in the NFL, fitting neatlessly, predictably into the Rams secondary and playing away is.
But I once again got carried away… I was answering to a comment seeking for a solution to the safety position, including drafting another safety. In a post lamenting the need for leaders, or “bamf” how you call them.
So, please, finally… who is in charge of drafting, who picks the players and whose fault is it, if the leaders have gone missing? Where is the flaw, because there has to be a flaw, or are we just extremely unlucky?!
If we don’t understand the problem, we cannot solve it.
I’m not ‘biting’. I’m answering your comments.
1. You keep saying he was drafted too high. I always thought he was a round two prospect and plenty of others did too.
2. You asserted that people were giving him a pass because of Utah’s scheme but I never read that suggestion once.
3. Neither is anyone expecting him to be the second coming of Kam or Earl. Find me one comment — by a fan, pundit, writer — that has suggested that.
4. When has anyone said ‘being a Ute’ means a thing? You seem to be creating phoney points to concoct a non-existent argument simply because you’d rather they’d drafted Taylor Rapp.
5. As I said in my previous comment — Kam Chancellor received a redshirt season in 2010 to learn from Lawyer Milloy. Richard Sherman didn’t start in 2011 until two players — Marcus Trufant AND Walter Thurmond — got injured. If Blair needs time to settle into a starting role, c’est la vie.
6. Who is in charge of drafting? Pete Carroll and John Schneider. I thought that was obvious.
Amen!
If you watch the replay of the NOS game (and you should because you see so much more than you do watching it live), you’ll see the OL had a pretty good game, especially in pass pro. Even their run block was pretty solid. What wasn’t solid was Carson’s footing. At least 3 drives were stalled because he slipped. Not saying that’s his fault, just pointing out it wasn’t because the OL failed.
Funny thing about Carson’s fumble is that you can see him trying to secure the ball right as he gets tackled. It’s not like he wasn’t expecting it. You can see him shift the carry from his left hand to his right (presumably to keep himself between the tackler on his left and the ball) as he gets hit. But I don’t think he knew there was a second defender bearing down on him from his right. Credit to NOS for a great play.
Biggest failure on defense was the poor tackling, I get Kamara is slippery and hard to bring down, but there were just too many arm tackle attempts for a SEA defense. Hill looked pretty good to me for only his second (?) start. He’s a willing tackler who just needs game experience. I also think Rasheem Green is starting to show up in games, especially in the second half. I’ve a feeling he’ll be a break out DLer for SEA by the end of the season.
How nice was it seeing Moore back on the field and making plays?
Pete Carroll: ‘He’s (Kamara) better than I though he was.’
No s*** Pete.
It’s still too early to make assumptions on this team.. Seattle is still too young of a team that hasn’t played together for more than say 3 years.. From what I recall Seattle is the 4 youngest team in the NFL.
No preseason, limited training camp and game action is taking a toll on getting all teams ready for the season.
Seattle defense can’t intimidate like they did before because of the changes in the NFL rules.. Show me a team that scares you defensively? They NFL doesn’t want hard hits and concussions. The players get fined for hard hits on QBs RBs and receivers.
The evolution of the quick passing game has also make it difficult for defenses to dictate offensive play calling..How are teams going to get to the better QB in 3 seconds.
Seattle is also not set with both Ziggy and Clowney getting acclimated to new team.
Seattle’s offense is another issue..Their are few running backs like Marshawn Lynch that are featured backs that can intimidate defenses. The offensive line is the same but also still a work in progress and must adjust to the holding penalties and get their game timing down.
I think it’s a bit of an excuse to say the league rules are the reason they’re not intimidating anymore. The game isn’t THAT different from 2014. The Bears defense certainly packs a punch. And it’s not like there were loads of intimidating defenses in 2013. Seattle was still able to set a trend there.
Agreed. We are three games in. Clearly Carroll is still getting used to this squad. Once he figures out who he can rely on, we’ll start rolling. Patience, people. We are 2-1 and still in good shape., The best football is yet to come.
I think it’s possible that people are being a little too pessimistic on the back of this, admittedly gut wrenching, loss. They haven’t played at all as well as they need to, or in the manner they want to, but when do they ever at this stage in the season?
And to be clear, the criticisms are very fair and we’re right to point them out, but they were still an absolutely ridiculous game away from being 3-0. This is not the time for our yearly finger pointing at coaches and philosophy, talk of an 8 win ceiling (not pointing fingers at anyone here, we are generally better than the rest of the fan base in regard). History tells us they are more likely to figure it out than to play as they are all year round. So chins up, beat Arizona and roll on to what’s going to be an absolutely massive game against Rams.
I felt the same way about this team when they were 2-0.
Great QB, sound offensive/defensive coaching, young/developing roster.
However, no speed off the edges, no ball hawks in the secondary, lack of OL depth (talent and health), sloppy/undisciplined play. Without those, it will be a challenge to establish identity (physical offense + opportunistic defense), impose their will, win games.
I’m expecting a grind with no easy games.
All fair points that I agree with, but I expect them to grind out enough of those games and improve in establishing what they want to establish by the years end for this to be considered a successful season.
Refusing to change your gameplan when situation or need calls for it. An official problem at RB. Spending a draft class building up your STs unit and watching said unit give opposing team 14 points.
There’s losing football games and than there’s bad football. Sunday, outside of RW and his weapons in the 4th, was bad.
They changed their gameplan up quite effectively last week, this game got away from them so quickly they couldnt adjust effectively.
The fumbles are an issue but theres also a tremendous amount of poor fortune to it. Chris is still a top player. The players drafted for ST this year have been making plays for that unit, they have also been very poor overall though, and that’s a big thing that most improve for this team to be good this year.
Like I say, criticism is fair, but I’m not ready to panic just yet.
When? In the 4th quarter? And I don’t mean just on offense.
That’s why I said it’s a problem. I’m as big a Carson fan as you’ll find, but turning the ball over goes against everything Pete’s ever preached. He’s too talented to give up on or keep on the sidelines, but IMO that’s what ya gotta do until he proves otherwise.
I don’t think anyone is panicking. At least not here. Rather, their deficiencies we saw in weeks 1 & 2 compounded, became quite glaring, and they got snake bit. Maybe being 2-0 was masking those. As the old saying goes, ‘sometimes you learn more about yourself/who you are as a team in a loss.’
Had another thought on this topic of BAMFs.
I would argue those aforementioned players were also “core” players- guys on longer contracts to build around- the identity of the team, leaders.
Who is “core” today?
Wilson and Wagner are clear, but beyond them, there is really only Lockett and D.Brown on longer deals. Have the younger players done enough to be considered “core”, and therefore the identity?
As I think of players deserving of 2nd contracts, Reed, QJeff, maybe Fant or Ifedi? In 2021- Pocic, Griffin, Carson, Ford? Are those guys “core” and identity guys? I’m not really sure.
Either the team is consciously moving away from the BAMF identity of its “core” or doing a really bad job drafting for them.
I guarantee they’re not moving away from a BAMF identity. They just haven’t been able to develop the guys they’ve drafted to fill these roles on the core — or they’ve drafted the wrong guys. That’s not to say everyone they’ve drafted has been poor either. It’s just they haven’t replenished the stocks in terms of core personality. The team lacks a heart and soul currently.
Response to Sea Mode and Football Perspective,
This is the topic I was trying to engage above. Seattles offense is hot garbage and it’s hardly being talked about. Our defense is having to bail out this offense. In essence they gave up 14 points against NO yet the lamenting is there are no big hitters/tone setters etc. This comment is not aimed at Rob because it’s everywhere. But the bottom line for any defense is don’t allow points to be scored. There are no scoreboard bonuses for big hits, pressures and so on. Points allowed, the end.
This defense is doing that despite an offense near the most in 3 and outs resulting in more possessions for opposing offenses, only scoring 14 points through 3 quarters, and very middle of the pack average of 22+ points per game. The final four teams in the playoffs last year averaged about 31 points per game for their season.
This season still has some intrigue because with all the injuries, suspension and new pieces this defense has the opportunity to be quite good. If the offense can get it figured out and be closer to 28-30 points per game this team could do some damage.
It’s true that the offense and special teams certainly didn’t help the defense on Sunday but it’s just wrong to say the only thing that matters is points against. The Seahawks have barely troubled three average or below average quarterbacks. The pressure is non existent. They have one interception in three games and don’t look like forcing any turnovers. Those things matter too. And when you set out to play a physical brand of football that connects all three phases of the game together — yes pressures, turnovers and hits matter.
The secondary looks weak. The pass rush isn’t there. They missed nearly 20 tackles in the game.
It’d be a massive mistake to give them a pass and blame everything on the offense.
Differing philosophies I guess. This team was proud of their 3 year run with least amount of points allowed in league. So it meant something to them.
I’m fine with 0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumble recoveries as long as defense only yields 14-18 points a game. Would I like to see sacks, interceptions and fumble recoveries? Sure because in theory a competent offense will capitalize or at least flip field position.
What can’t be denied is this offense has historically started the first half slow which requires the defense to make second half stops and the offense to do some scramble drills at the end hoping Russ can work some magic.
The competence of both offenses was on full display Sunday. Both teams had 2 occasions where it was 3rd or 4th and 1yard. NO made it both times with a backup QB, Seattle got neither with Russ. NO was imaginative, Seattle was predictable. Defense against Seattle, stack the box to stop the run, cover the deep ball. Repeat until Seattle does something different. Through 12 quarters they have changed only for 2 quarters against Pittsburgh.
Let’s be realistic here. How likely is it that a team that creates no pressure, no hits and no interceptions is also among the league leaders in least number of points conceded?
Not very likely is the answer.
Agreed not likely. But obviously that’s not going to happen and is not the point.
As for this particular defense…teams are not allowed physical practices in the offseason, starters virtually play little to know preseason, key starters (KJ, Hendricks) are coming back from missed season a year ago, key pieces (Ansah, Clowney) have never played in this system and are nowhere close to game shape, 2 stud tackles (Ford, Reed) have missed game. Get that line rolling come week 8 or so coupled with Pete being a quality defensive coach and the sacks, picks and 3 and outs will be on the uptick.
All offseason the common theme was the offense would have to carry the defense. While the defense is a work in progress as Sea Modes quote points out the offense is being compared to the Dolphins (tanking), Jets (3rd string qb picked off waivers) and Cardinals (new coach, new qb). That is some elite company!
It is amazing to me how one player can change the whole identity of a defense.
The rams defense minus Aaron Donald are just ok. With him they are good enough to compliment their offense.
The bears defense minus Khalil Mack are just above average. With him they compete for being the best in the league.
What I am trying to say is that one player, like what Rob has said, can change the whole identity of a defense.
I am hopeful that when our d line becomes full strength, with Reed back, and the boys playing a few games together we can change the identity of our D… or at least force some turnovers.
I made the case for trading for Khalil Mack a year ago. Not sure they could’ve afforded his salary at the time but he’s the type of player that elevates a defense in the way Donald does.
I’m going to say things that won’t sound popular.
First Lynch is a historic back. He’s gone. Second just a few weeks back we were singing praises of our backs. Two scores were handed to the saints before their offense sniffed our 45 yard line. It took them a while and by then Sean Payton was playing with the cushion of those two scores and could relax his team and back up QB.
The fumbles are still a concern but the running game can be dominant. Can be.
So far we have yet to see any return on Clowney or close to what we all were hoping for. I’ve said often when he was coming out in the daft much like Rashan Gary it’s hard to teach extremely physically talented players like these two a strong pass rush repertoire they are better at a standing up position and allowed to attack.
This was a trap game against a all around solid team in every phase of the game. And again we almost pulled it out. Too many missed fourth and shorts late in the game and we lose. It wasn’t a horrible game. And we had a punchers chance of winning in the end. Hopefully Pete and the coaches realize the have better athletes then pass rushers in the front seven and mix in well timed loaded gap stunts and blitzes.