Frank Clark could be a top-100 pick according to reports
At what point does sporting success pale into insignificance?
We’ve just seen Greg Hardy join the Dallas Cowboys, a situation that has provided heated exchanges on both sides of the debate. Yet as Jason La Canfora notes, Ray Rice is without a team and faces the end of his career:
“In a league of second chances, at a time when Greg Hardy, who faced heinous domestic violence allegations, just signed with a new team before the NFL had even meted out its full discipline on him, Ray Rice remains a pariah. The former Pro Bowl running back can’t get a phone call to invite him to a tryout, let alone a contract offer. His football future looks beyond bleak.”
There’s a simple explanation to why Hardy has a new contract and Rice remains on the outside. Hardy is one of the premier pass rushers in the NFL playing through his peak years. Rice looked finished even before his headline-making departure from Baltimore.
Is it safe to assume if you’re good enough, you’ll get a chance? Whatever the situation?
Is that right?
It’ll sit uncomfortably with many fans but it’s hard to know what a team should do. At the end of the day, they’re in the business of winning games. If you can add a player to help you win more games, don’t you have to at least consider it? You’re also in the business of representing thousands of people — a community. You represent fans with families and wives and mothers and sisters. That surely plays a part too?
Many teams could afford Hardy’s non-guaranteed prove-it contract, yet only the Cowboys really stepped up to the plate.
What is the right decision to make on cases like this?
If Hardy was joining the Seahawks instead, it would’ve created a heated discussion among fans for and against the move. The same thing will happen if they draft Dorial Green-Beckham or Frank Clark — the player I want to focus on today.
Clark was dismissed by Michigan in November after a disturbing domestic abuse incident. This piece from Sam Cooper, including notes from the Detroit Free Press, paints an ugly picture. I’ve taken some select quotes below:
One officer, Martin Curran, arrived at the scene and saw Clark (Michigan had a bye this week) in the hotel parking lot. Curran approached Clark. Clark told Curran that there was “a disturbance.”
Clark told Curran that he “didn’t touch” the woman, his girlfriend, involved in the alleged assault.
After Curran and another officer surveyed the scene, they arrested Clark on two first-class misdemeanor charges – one for domestic violence and one for assault. Curran also determined that Clark was intoxicated.
When Curran entered the hotel room, Clark’s girlfriend, 20-year-old Diamond Hurt, was there.
“We went up to the room, there was a damaged lamp on the table, a damaged lamp on the wall and she’s got a large welt on the side of her cheek, she’s got marks on her neck,” Curran told the Free-Press. “She had what looked like rug burn on her one thigh. We have pictures of everything.”
“We had people from other rooms that were witnesses to this,” Curran said. “That’s how this started, somebody in different room heard screaming and yelling, heard noises come out of the room, they thought something was going on and they opened up their door and little kids come running out of the hotel room that Frank was in and screaming Frank is … the witness came out basically saying, ‘Frank is killing our sister.’ They go over there and they knock on the door, they look inside and see this girl on the ground unconscious and they said that Frank is yelling and screaming at people and they call the front desk and the front desk, she sees the girl on the ground, the damage to the room and that’s how we ended up getting called.”
Hurt “refused a trip to the hospital and did not want to press charges.” Curran informed her that when there are signs of domestic violence, in the state of Ohio, officers can still arrest the offender even if the victim does not want to pursue charges.
Clark was still invited to and was allowed to attend this years combine. He had the opportunity to address the media, as noted by SI.com here:
Clark told the media he’s been in counseling and has been doing things “to strengthen my mindset.” He said he “broke down and cried” when he received an invite to the combine and called it a “shock.”
Whatever he said to teams in Indianapolis, it seemed to help his stock:
I thought UM's Frank Clark would be undraftable due to off-field issues, but some teams satisfied w/ his answers at combine. Likely Top 100
— Lance Zierlein (@LanceZierlein) March 18, 2015
Zierlein wasn’t the only one to believe Clark would go undrafted. Mike Mayock made a similar remark in the build up to the combine while Scouts Inc dropped his grade into the undrafted range. Yet here we are, now discussing the possibility he could go in the top-100 — meaning an early fourth round grade as a possible worse case scenario.
Should he get the opportunity? As a fan are you comfortable cheering for a person like this? Or are you willing to offer the second chance?
Whether he gets the opportunity or not will probably come down to talent — as appears to be the case with the Hardy and Rice situation. Clark on tape is an absolute dynamo, which indicates he probably will get that second chance — rightly or wrongly.
In Clark’s NFL.com write-up there’s a quote from an unnamed NFC Executive:
“I don’t think he gets past the 4th round at the latest. Our team felt like he gave honest answers regarding previous incidents and we came away feeling much better about him after speaking to him.”
At the combine he ran a 4.79 at 271lbs and a shade under 6-3. It’s not an amazing time but look at the other numbers — a 38.5 inch vertical, a 7.08 in the three cone and an explosive 4.05 in the short shuttle. He’s not a sprinter by any means but that’s elite short area quickness and lower body explosion. Throw in 34.5 inch arms and you’re talking about a guy with the length and quick’s to be a real threat off the edge. He plays with a relentless motor too.
It’s easy to forget that Hardy had a whole host of character concerns going into the 2010 draft. He came into the 2009 college season touted as a first round pick. He slipped, Carolina benefited until the point they couldn’t justify keeping him around.
Of course, the Panthers weren’t making the decision off the back of the kind of headlines Clark made in 2014. Especially not at a time where Hardy, Rice and Adrian Peterson were causing headaches within the league office and damaging the image of the game worldwide.
Someone will give Clark an opportunity. The Seahawks will surely be doing their due diligence the same as everyone else. By now they probably know whether he stays on the draft board or not.
Whether you’d be comfortable with the selection or not is a personal decision. He is a very talented football player with a legitimate shot at making it in the NFL. Whether he deserves to get that opportunity or not is another question. It’s an issue the league is yet to truly come to terms with.
I think if he’s there at the bottom of the 4th round, he has to be considered as a realistic option. After the first 2 rounds, there’s a ridiculous drop off in talent for defensive linemen, and the hawks definitely need some depth at that spot. He could be one of the few options remaining.
Also, Breshad Perriman ran in the 4.2’s today at his pro day. I think this easily makes him the 4th WR taken, after DeVante Parker and before Jaelen Strong. Hopefully this pushes the likes of Devin Smith and Phillip Dorsett closer to our pick in the 2nd round.
I’m very sceptical of the times mentioned. Pro-days usually inflate forty times. Running in the 4.2’s is unusual for a player that size. I think he’s probably a 4.4 runner at the combine. The thing is, we always knew he was fast. That was never the issue. It’s the drops. And he didn’t catch any passes during today’s forty.
Did you watch the video? I did and timed him at 4.19. Obviously I’m slow at the start and I have a terrible view of the finish, but I don’t doubt the time.
I’ve not watched the video but let’s be right here, Perriman is fast but he’s not going to be the fastest player in the NFL. That time would put him clearly as the fastest player in the league by some distance.
Timing by 30fps video had Perriman at a 4.36…at least that’s what Twitter says 🙂
If so, that’s still a great time for him, and could very well vault him to being the 4th WR taken.
That time seems fair. I thought he ran a low 4.4 from the eye ball test. He will be gone by end of second round, with some draft pundits thinking he might have worked his way into the bottom of the 1st round now.
He’d have to be an option at 63.
I have zero interest in rooting for a guy who should flat out be in prison, and I’ll think less of our team if they opt to sign such a player. I was against Hardy at any price, and I feel the same here based on what the police are reporting.
So do you fee the same about all criminal charges like DUI etc? I agree that domestic violence is awful and has no place in society but as someone who’s best friends son was killed by a drunk driver I find it amazing how all those players get 2nd and 3rd chances but after seeing the horrible Ray Rice video if there is even a allegation of domestic violence these guys are written off.
No doubt DUI is awful, but is much more of a gross display of irresponsibility – to the level that can have fatal consequences. The difference with domestic violence is that element of malice. It’s hard to root for someone who knowingly hurt someone else.
I agree with you 100%. I don’t think DUI and DV are even remotely comparable criminal acts, I don’t understand why people keep trying to compare them.
DUI is much more about taking a risk that could result in an accident. Yes, sometimes (but rarely) those accidents are HORRIBLE, deadly accidents – but DUI perpetrators do not intend to do harm.
DV is no accident, its knowingly beating, choking, and threatening to kill a defenseless woman.
I should clarify – DV is not always “knowingly beating, choking, and threatening to kill a defenseless woman.” I was referring directly to this case.
“DV is no accident, its knowingly beating, choking, and threatening to kill a defenseless woman.”
It’s sweeping statements like this that I really can’t stand. Yes, DV can be what you just described. But to characterize it always as this is just not accurate. A verbal fight escalates between two people that have an intimate relationship. Sometimes there’s alcohol involved that impairs the judgement of both parties. But both people are in a heightened state of rage where they’ll often say things they really don’t mean just to push the buttons of the other. When it gets physical ultimately it doesn’t matter who initiated first contact because the guy is always supposed to show restraint regardless of how much a woman might be slapping, hitting, biting, throwing things at him. I get that part. But a guy is not always going to be in his right mind in that sort of situation. Their reaction might be completely reflexive where they use too much force trying to restrain her to get her to stop. They absolutely should be held accountable for their actions, but all they have to do is lay a hand on her to get arrested for DV and go straight to jail. To say that it’s always “no accident, it’s knowingly beating, choking, and threatening to kill a defenseless woman” is like some gross caricature of some prick that slaps his wife or gf around when he gets home from work because he’s just having a bad day. I’m not saying there aren’t cases of guys that are like that but that’s just not an accurate depiction of how these things often go down. It’s usually more complicated where both parties are involved with escalating things and say and do lots of things they don’t mean to say or do if they weren’t in an extreme state of intoxication, rage, and is so often the case, jealousy.
So I don’t know how you can say DV is always “no accident” and involves “beating, choking, and threatening to kill”. It might very well be true that what happened with Frank Clark might have had elements of all those things though we can’t know for sure because the alleged victim refused to testify or cooperate with police. But I’m not sure how you can say that always applies with DV. It could very well be the accidental application of too much force or a reflexive reaction to prevent a spurned GF from going ballistic on them that wasn’t intended. Or it could be like you said, a guy deliberately beating, choking, and threatening to kill a woman. Each incident needs to be considered on the facts to determine accountability. Yes the guy is always at fault for the over-application of force on a woman, but there’s clearly some mitigating circumstances in one instance that there aren’t in the other. Our laws recognize there’s differences in degree when applying punishment. Yet both get lumped together as DV when police are called.
Did you miss my clarification? I know all of this. I’m done with this subject on this blog after this, because I really feel strongly about it – but we all love the Hawks here and it shouldn’t continue to divide us in that love.
I don’t care how many guys get wrongfully accused of DV, and I realize that’s not how you or a lot of other people feel. But, countless more women are abused, yet are too ashamed or scared to come forward with the allegations in the first place. So, the victims need to be given a voice and protection on this subject and we need to stop giving guys a “pass” since it can’t be proven. Far too often, men use their physical superiority to dominate, intimidate, and violate women and we all know it happens a lot. So why do we defend the guy’s “right to the assumption of innocence”? We should be rallying to help the abused, not the abuser. It is a major problem throughout the world and if it takes a double-standard to put a stop to it, than so be it.
“I don’t care how many guys get wrongfully accused of DV”
Wow. Ok, well I appreciate your honesty.
I’m all for Frank Clark and giving him a shot and I think the team should seriously consider taking him with their 3rd round pick if he is there. He’s exactly the kind of pass rush depth that we need that we so sorely lack. I really believe DL depth is key to returning this team to the glory days of 2013 when the D was just cleaning up because the DL was just dominating teams.
I’ll be fine if the FO selects Clark because I trust them to do their homework on him and if they pick him that would mean they think he’s worth the risk. Their overall success has earned my implicit trust and I don’t expect them to take Clark’s potential red flags lightly. I think everyone deserves a 2nd chance and I really believe PC thinks the same way, which is why he was willing to sign Tony McDaniel in spite of DV charges that had run him off his last team and it didn’t bother him to also sign Kevin Williams in spite of having a past brush with DV as well. If they think Clark checks out and pick him, I’d be all for it.
Couldn’t agree more. This guy is a beast. I think he’s going to be terror off the edge and is one of my favorite pics this draft has to offer. He has explosive power, unique length, short area quickness and burst. Paired with Bennett and Avril, (Black Santa & The Viper) in a NASCAR package, mix in a little Bruce Irvin and you have a recipe for a quarterbacks worst nightmare.
I think he may have a little chip on his shoulder as well…
LOL. The Viper. I like that. Never heard that before. That suits him perfectly. I love me some Cliff Avril
Let’s coin it for him V-12 it really is a great name for Avril, Rob you in?
Dawgman. Agreed 100%. If the Seahawks draft him, I will still root for the Seahawks. However, I will be deeply disappointed and think less of John and Pete.
Both Kevin Williams and McDaniel have DV charges in their past. I assume you feel the same about them?
How do you feel about Kevin Williams or Tony McDaniel?
I don’t approve of DV at all either but how do you feel about our team signing K. Williams and T. McDaniel? They were in the same boat of trouble at one point.
For me, if Clark makes a roster and proves himself to be rehabilitated over the course of multiple seasons like Williams and McDaniels, then I’d feel a lot better about SEA signing him at that time.
I don’t feel great about it. I admittedly know less about the details of those cases. I didn’t love Leroy Hill being on our team, either.
It really is such a difficult decision to make on all these guys with character concerns particularly the domestic violence incidents because we don’t know all the background information and it is often a he said she said situation. These are all young men and many of them have had difficult backgrounds and upbringings so there are bound to be mistakes and incidents. That is why the background work and interviews these teams do prior to the draft are so important. If the find this was a one time incident and the person is truly remorseful and gotten the help required then I almost feel like you have to give the kid a 2nd chance. These are mid round picks and while important there is not much financial risk. On the other hand some people are really troubled and are sociopaths obviously these people are not the type of people any organization would want.
So I guess in short my answer on all these young players is that the only way you could make a decision is to really do your due diligence and get to know the player and reserach the incident and background. If you are comfortable it was a one off mistake and not a character issue you take the chance.
I tend to agree. Frank Clark is one of the better athletes at the EDGE position in the draft. Zach Whitman’s SPARQ numbers give him a z-score of 1.0. In other words he’s a whole standard deviation better athlete than the average NFL DE.
Source: http://3sigmaathlete.com/2015/03/25/post-combine-sparq-rankings-edge/
I think he’ll be taken in the 4th or 5th round by a team with a comp pick, which is basically house money anyways.
I want the Seahawks to win, and they can cheat to do so, as long as they don’t get caught, or even if they do, so long as they still get away with it (see NE Patriots, the “winning-est” team of the modern era). If the city of Seattle cared anything about domestic abuse issues, it would not be legalizing drugs or have a bar on every street corner. This is about sports, not real life. If people really cared about abuse, society would look nothing like it does…. let’s be realistic.
Wow…
I lost IQ points just reading this idiocy.
Yep. The ends do not always justify the means.
If you read his story of the incident, the woman was upset because she found calls on his phone to another woman. The ‘other woman’ was just a friend but the girl friend did not see it that way. You can imagine how this works out. She gets more and more upset until she pushes him. Then the battle is on. By law, the first aggressor is at fault. We have no video evidence to determine who the first aggressor was. Our values, however, say the woman goes to the hospital and the man goes to jail. These kind of problems occur too often with young couples. Does he deserve to have his life ended over it? What if it is her fault?
Physical violence is unforgiveable. Period. That line cannot be crossed. Doesn’t matter what preceded it. Those who cannot resolve conflicts without resorting to physical violence must be punished and restrained, for as long as it takes. And even after time has been served, these people should be monitored. For life.
Sadly, too many think like you. Physical violence is always an option to defend yourself from same. Women are not always the innocent lambs society portrays them as. They get violent often and have difficulty controlling themselves … then there are mental health issues like Bipolar disorder, etc. We do not and cannot know what happened. That is why the prosecutors will probably avoid a trial.
6’3″ 271…. walk away. Zero tolerence for guys who beat up women or kids.
I am with you Alaska. Walk away. It is smarter and easier.
Seriously. He’s an enormous man-beast who’s knocked his girlfriend out. I’d be absolutely disgusted if the Hawks drafted him, would have a very hard time watching him. Tom Cable makes me uncomfortable enough as it is.
agreed.
How do you walk away from getting smacked in your face or scratched up, at some point u have to restrain a female from trying to beat you , no one knows the full story so why try to put yourself in that situation, just give the kid a chance God damm everybody is human and they all make mistakes no one is perfect but everyone should be given a chance
It’s quite easy to walk away from that situation when you’re 6-3 and 271lbs with a NFL career on the line.
20 years ago, I tried walking away to get to my car and leave. But she hit me. So I turned around to defend myself. She tried to kick me where it matters most. I turned my hips to block with my outer thigh and swept my arm under her leg. I brought the other hand over and had her ankle with both hands. I told her to calm down and stop hitting. She leaned forward to hit made in the face. So I simply thrust up on her ankle, which caused her anchor leg to fail. She came down hard and was screaming in pain. The police laughed at the story back then because she was an angry fool. Today they would arrest me and a bunch of people on a blog would blubber on and on about what a cruddy person I am. We do not know the story, but hitting a girl in the face is hard for me to reconcile.
When someone makes a mistake we can acknowledge it was a mistake and offer opportunities for redemption. But that doesn’t mean we just ignore that it happened. Men who hit women need to be accountable and realize what they did was wrong, and after they do this then hopefully that second chance is available to them.
We can forgive these actions but we should never forget them. In order to help abusive men abstain from hitting women again, it’s important that they are held accountable and are reminded that it’s important to practice non-violence, especially as it pertains to women.
That’s a poignant point well illustrated in your story Robert. We have to be careful making sweeping generalizations especially with a subject as sensitive and murky as this without knowing all the particulars of the situation. Saying “it’s quite easy to walk away” when you’re of a certain height and weight larger that the alleged victim doesn’t quite seem to account for how messy these situations can get.
Not saying it’s not possible to walk way and every effort should be made to do just that. It might have been easy for him to walk away and if it is determined that it was he deserves rebuke and punishment for not doing so. But to characterize it as “quite easy” in all circumstances doesn’t appear to take into account elements that can be quite common to these types of incidents that make it far from “quite easy”.
Wow. So much for people having a 2nd chance. If a person that committed physical violence in general and was at fault for it and doesn’t have any remorse or correct their actions, absolutly I don’t think they should be given a 2nd chance. But if a person is legitimately working to better themselves (counseling / therapy) and are remorseful for what they’ve done, if they ask forgiveness I don’t see how they should not be given a 2nd chance. By your statement, we’d have the police and government actively monitoring over 2 million people a year, every year.
From the American Bar Association – Approximately 1.3 million women and 835,000 men are physically assaulted by an intimate partner annually in the United States.
I just don’t think that the world can be as cut and dry as you say it is.
Regardless of what happened she ended up unconscious… she can get as mad as he wants but it is NEVER okay to hit her. Especially given how ginormous these guys are. I am appalled you would even argue this.
Right, but you don’t know how she ended up unconscious and you don’t know that he hit her. The problem with mob justice is it’s all knee jerk, and self righteous, and the mob are all showing off to each other with the same statements that are supposed to be o objective and just.
You think Michigan just kicked him off the team for no reason? There was not only smoke, but fire for the administration to do that.
I don’t like to assume the administration is always right. There are administrations who would consider bad publicity, and the effect it would have on university business interests, in those kinds of decisions. With Michigan specifically and Clark, I have no opinion.
No one is denying the man his freedom, so please get off your “mob justice” and “second chances” soapbox. I don’t need to prove anything “beyond a shadow of doubt” or with “the preponderance of evidence” or any other legal term to feel that Mr. Clark (and Mr. Hardy) is (are) a better fit elsewhere in the NFL because the alleged incident is absolutely horrifying and the police (who have reviewed the evidence) think he is very guilty. It will not however, affect my fandom if the Seahawks drafted him (considering they currently employ Tom Cable as Assistant Head Coach) and recently signed, then re-signed Tony McDaniel.
No matter what a woman says or does to you, you don’t attack her. End of.
I agree 100%. It’s black and white, cut and dry in my book
Well, “attack” is a pretty loaded word here. Would you be okay with “defend yourself” instead? No matter what a woman does to you, you don’t defend yourself? Surely you can’t believe that, just as you can’t believe what you wrote the first time. A jealous ex-girlfriend pulls a knife and comes at you, you don’t use force to stop her? Or she comes at your wife or one of your kids? I have a hard time believing you honestly would stop short of physical force to stop her, if necessary. So to paraphrase Churchill, now we’re just arguing price.
The earlier poster is right: we have no idea what went on in that room. Sounds like they got in a fight. I don’t know if he started it, if he escalated it, or if it was just bad luck, nature and alcohol that made things end up the way they did. Point is, there is some version of events that *might* have occurred that would make me okay with giving the player a chance. Particular if it looks like he’s sincere in his efforts to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
There is no self defense when they are laying unconscious on the floor. Everyone wants second chances that doesn’t mean he gets to do anything he can get a job at Wal-Mart I.don’t need him as a Seahawk. Anyone arguing different on his behalf is selling something. There is no way he can become a millionaire and have any respect for society with his previous behavior. This wasn’t a drunken assault defending a teen at a party this was his love his girlfriend and he knocked.her out. Literally she was unconscious found by the neighbors and they called the police per the report. No excuses he is not Hawk worthy.
Her much younger siblings running out of the room yelling that Clark is trying to kill their sister is one big clue to what happened. Just say NO!
“There is no way he can become a millionaire and have any respect for society with his previous behavior.”
And you know this how? You have no idea the specific circumstances that led to her being unconscious. I can imagine of a ton of circumstances where her being unconscious might have been an unintended consequence of defending himself against an unprovoked attack by her. You’re just speculating and using your speculation as a basis to justify that he shouldn’t be allowed to pursue a living in his chosen profession. But it’s totally without basis.
Even if he were the instigator, it’s just really over the top to say that instigators of violence cannot have “respect for society”. If they’re a serial offender and/or the violence is premeditated I could understand. But if it’s a one time offender in a moment of poor judgement in the heat of passion then to make such an assertion borders on incoherency. You have no idea how remorseful and respectful of society he might really be, and how committed he is to not making the same mistake again. Fortunately as a society we don’t believe people are incapable of reform else we’d take everyone that’s ever committed DV, throw them in prison, and throw away the key.
Tony McDaniel has made the best of his chance PC gave him and has not re-offended. Neither has Kevin Williams. Neither has Tom Cable. All had prior problems with Domestic Violence. But using your form of justice all would be in prison right now.
Chalk Warren Moon up on that list too. Ridiculous. You can’t judge people from one incident. Warren is a great man and community leader. What if he was thrown into that same boat? It’s silly to judge someone based on a single incident. People do deserve a second chance and it’s that type of mentality which makes America one of the countries with the highest incarceration rates in the world. While America represents around 4.6% of the world’s population it houses around 22% of the world’s prisoners of which 90% are male .
Very astute point David. Warren Moon has otherwise been a pillar of the community and has given back to society probably an order of magnitude more than all the people calling for incarceration for one time DV offenders. It seems to me that those advocating such a stance are more about wanting to viscerally satisfy their innate bloodlust to see a guy punished more than they believe he’s been punished than it being about justice for the victim or protecting society. Their zero tolerance mentality is exactly what leads to our high incarceration rates. And incarceration by itself as a zero tolerance deterrent is a poor solution as the high recidivism rates for certain types of crimes would suggest.
Thanks for taking note Arias.
In 2010 black non-Hispanic males were incarcerated at the rate of 4,347 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents of the same race and gender. White males were incarcerated at the rate of 678 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents. Hispanic males were incarcerated at the rate of 1,755 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents.
The demographic percentages of these numbers are alarming. This isn’t about sending more young men to jail. The real answer is in solutions. Solutions start with counseling, education, family resources and commitment to change.
People don’t understand the business side of the prison system and the money that is made from it. Prisoners are treated like commodities and are shipped from state to state. Just because you get in trouble in California doesn’t mean you’ll be serving your sentence in California. Prison lobbyists are some of the strongest lobbyists in state government and DC. The contractors that have the capability to build the prisons are buddies with the guys making the laws. Talk about a conflict of interest.
All said, people deserve a chance to change. 75% of the jail population is between 26 and 46 years of age. When you take away the bulk of an adult mans life and surround it by violence and corruption inside the walls of a detention facility you are only perpetuating the problems that exist and ignoring the opportunity to effectively rehabilitate an individual.
Giving guys like Frank Clark and Warren Moon a second chance only helps increase the possibilities of men like them becoming leaders in their respective communities. The answer lies in change, not in jail time.
We need athletes to make a difference, we need to give them the opportunity to do so.
It seems like some people are using situations in the 99th percentile of cases to defend all men on the subject of domestic violence. How frequently in domestic violence does it involve an unprovoked attack by a woman with a knife? Come on man, the larger issue here is men who feel they can physically dominate women as objects and that’s okay.
That’s not to say they can’t come back from that and realize their mistakes and overcome their irresponsible behavior. It’s just to say that we need to hold all men accountable for domestic violence. ALL MEN. That’s it.
I think you’re missing the point of bringing up that hypothetical. No one is using that argument to justify cases where men physically dominate women as objects. I’m not sure where you got that. The extreme is brought up to warn against making sweeping generalizations that sound great and righteous in theory but don’t always work like that in practice. To say things like “a man should never lay hands on a woman” as a universal black and white rule just doesn’t hold up. Describing a “knife” scenario is in order to describe a black and white incident of where that maxim just doesn’t hold up. In murky situations like this it’s dangerous to make sweeping generalizations like that when it’s most likely somewhere in between. Each situation needs to be evaluated on the facts of what happened rather than jumping to conclusions based on the aftermath.
Like Rhino was saying, you don’t know who started it, who might have escalated it, whether her injuries were deliberate or incidental, or whether there was alcohol involved. These are all factors that the law considers when determining levels of accountability in these types of situations and to think it’s so simple that it’s a black and white case of saying ‘the man is always wrong unless she’s an armed aggressor’ isn’t right either.
Domestic violence can be far more impactful in the lives of women than in men. I understand that every situation is different, but when you look at what happened in Clark’s specific case it’s pretty cut and dry. There are just few situations where a man needs to knock a girl unconscious. When you look at Greg Hardy’s situation, it’s pretty cut and dry too; he threatened her life and threw her onto a pile of guns, and strangled her. You really can’t justify reactions like this, because there are other ways to deal with most domestic disputes besides throwing fists. Like, you could leave, or call the police. And the fact that Greg Hardy had a bunch of guns on his couch opens up a lot of other varieties of possibilities as to what other kinds of crimes he’s involved with.
It would be interesting for someone to bring up a specific case where the male was undoubtedly the victim for contrast.
I think it’s important to heed the possibility of a variety of scenarios, but that shouldn’t lead anyone to believe that sometimes it is okay to lay their hands on a woman. Perhaps to the extent of stopping her from doing something terrible, but to take damaging measures against her is usually unnecessary and motivated by rage. Specifically, delving into thoughts like “Well what if she had a knife or a bomb” doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of abusive relationships involve a female victim. Even if the male faces some abuse as well, I believe he will usually have the upper hand in physical altercations and he rarely faces as dire of consequences as women do.
And then there’s this from the American Bar Association:
81% of women stalked by a current or former intimate partner are also physically assaulted by that partner. 31% of women stalked by a current or former intimate partner are also sexually assaulted by that partner.
As you can see this kind of thing happens a lot when it comes to jaded relationships. Another thing to consider is that there are very few men that are sexually assaulted by women. Women are extremely more vulnerable to it and thus domestic violence is far more impactful in the lives of women than in men.
Oh, come on. He’s 6’3″ 271 and tests out as one of the best athletes in the draft. Unless his girlfriend is Ronda Rousey I’m pretty comfortable in saying he didn’t have to knock her unconscious in order to “defend” himself.
Your little “hypotheticals” (What if she was threatening his kids with a knife?! What if she was ISIS?! Shouldn’t he beat her up then?!) are nothing more than the trolling, reflexive, victim-blaming, DV-apologizing bullshit that comes out of the worst parts of reddit.
If you want to say you just don’t care that he knocked out a girl half his size and only care how he plays on the field, say it. I think that’s a disgusting attitude too, but at least it’s more honest than this “maybe she knocked herself out with a lamp” stuff.
Uh, no. Those “little hypotheticals” are an effort to determine the operative principle that allows us to make fair judgments. When pronouncements such as “never hit a woman” are intoned as if they are some sort of Biblical imperative, they deserve to be challenged. I can certainly imagine situations in which I would use physical force against a woman, and those include her believable, imminent threat to use deadly physical force on me or a loved one, for just one example. And that ain’t “trolling”. It’s testing the proffered principle, and demonstrating it is incomplete, at best.
That said, I see nothing in the Frank Clark incident that suggests that this exception to the general rule was in play. Instead, it sounds more like a quarrel that got serious, fast, and when you are 6′ 3″ and 271 lbs, you need to be especially careful to control your temper, with women and otherwise. Very bad judgment by a 21 year old dude. One time incident, or the beginning of a pattern of abuse of women? I don’t think anybody knows, and that is what will drive him down some draft boards, especially in the current climate.
Thank you, Bruce, for stating the case so eloquently. I honestly believe it’s the attitudes espoused by people like Jeff M., above, that actually *create* the attitudes he demonizes in his post. By creating a nonsense world, any reasoned debate is seen as the heinous defense of monsters.
All I can say, as a woman, is some of you guys ( and only a few of you) absolutely DISGUST me. UNLESS she has a gun, NO it is not ok and all this woulda, shoulda , coulda of he could be justified is BS.
Could she have had a part in the fight, of course. but just like children to adults, woman are not as strong as men. which means that you have to as men realise that if you hit her, she could SERIOUSLY be injured. HE IS TWICE HER SIZE AND FIVE TIMES AS STRONG. If you dont see it, than go pick a fight with an MMA fighter and you’ll get the picture.
I don’t think we can say what happened, based off those reports. Apparently she tried to bite his nose off? The witnesses are her brothers. Is this really a cut and dry incident of a man beating a woman? Everyone should read that report more closely before condemning this man. For all you know she was on her period going nuts and he was trying to pry her off his nose. I’m sure the NFL has better info on what happened through their investigators etc. Do they have an obligation to disclose that to the fans?
Let’s say she tried to bite his nose off. He is a gigantic muscular football player, who makes a living putting guys his own size into the ground. She is a woman. He couldn’t restrain her without rendering her unconscious?
*EDITED TO REMOVE OFFENSIVE COMMENT*
^ unnecessary
I can’t deny that the idea of a guy with Greg Hardy’s ability rushing the passer with Avril and Bennett was highly enticing, but I was never comfortable with the notion of him in a Seahawks uniform. Everyone deserves a second chance, but let’s be honest, no team was going to sign Hardy because they thought he deserved an opportunity to redeem himself of his crimes, he’s good at getting to the quarterback and that’s all people were interested in. That shouldn’t be enough for this or any other team. I’m appalled the Cowboys are not just comfortable giving him ridiculous money, but arrogant enough to release images of him and Jerry Jones smiling away as they sign the contract, whilst playing hardball with Dez Bryant behind the veil of concern over his supposed off field problems. I hope he gets a significant suspension. Similarly, whilst I think the notion of drafting Frank Clark well below his real value is enticing, I don’t want this or any other team ignoring what he did just for a little competitive advantage.
If we’re talking defensive ends, Matt Miller mocked Preston Smith to us in the second. Great value as far as I’m concerned. He’s another Michael Bennett, but I don’t think we would be interested in any of the pure edge guys that high anyway. I love prospects who can move inside, it’s an unheralded, valuable and rare trait. The other his thing about that mock? We ended up with Sambrailo and Lockett AND Waller AND Nunez-Roches. Miller must read the blog. That would be a lot of readers’ dream scenarios, and a great draft for the Seahawks.
Miller is not being realistic about where players will be chosen in the draft. I’m thinking you have a shot at Sambrailo or Lockette in the 2nd, but by the end of the 3rd round both should/would most likely be gone.
I love almost all Robs picks but I really hope we don’t go with Sambrailo. I think there are so many better options at Guard. After watching him at the Senior Bowl practices and the Combine I just don’t see it with this guy.
Is he going to do this crap ever again? If he’s learned his lesson and can be trusted – heck, yes, bring him in if he can get to the QB.
If it seems to be in his DNA to be a woman beater, hell no, don’t give him a chance. You need to have guys on your team that you can trust not to get suspended.
Hate the sin. Love the sinner.
I would be ok on taking a guy like this despite how nasty that incident sounds. We all make mistakes (yes, hopefully never to this magnitude) but I do believe in giving people second chances.
It’s the people that keep having repetitive problems chance after chance are the kinds of people that I would want to stay away from in the draft (Jamis Winston, DGB, etc.) because how can you trust them for the long term?
Cedric Ogbuehi, OT, Texas A&M
He is rehabbing an ACL injury, but if he gets back to form. He might be one of the great steals of the late 2nd-3rd round range. Before the injury, he was regarded as one of the top 5 OT in this draft.
If we could get him in the 3rd or 4th he would be worth it I think even if he red shirts for a year to get healthy and get coached up on our ZBS.
I believe Texas A+M uses a ZBS type of system. (Or at least uses some principles in their normal offense.)
If this is accurate, the learning curve could be flattened out and he would be able to play from day 1.
If we got Ogbuehi with our 4th rounder from the Saints it will be as if we traded the 4th rounder we got from the Saints for a 2016 1st rounder which Ogbuehi would have been had he not been hurt.
Give Britt one more year at RT to see if he improves. If not slide Ogbuehi in at RT and resign Okung then move Britt to Guard.
If Britt improves his pass protection then keep him at RT and maybe Ogbuehi can slide in and rplace Okung if he cant be resigned.
I’m thinking something like this might play out… tremendous value for a very small price. You got a top TE, lost a top center/1st rd draft pick… but end up with a very high upside OT in the process…. I’m in!
There is going to come a time when this franchise is going to have to cut costs. Okung is making good money in this his last year of his contract. Money is going to have to be saved for guys like Wilson/Wagner and if we could redshirt our future LG at minimal cost and let Okung walk… that might be the way to go. I don’t want Okung gone, I just know we can’t pay everyone.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I like Okung, and quality LTs are not overly plentiful, but what price is JS prepared to pay to keep him? A top-10/15 LT makes a boatload of cash and we all know it’s the most recent contract that matters, not his ranking in that top-10/15.
That said, I don’t think Ogbuehi is the answer, he was very good at RT and struggled badly at LT. He would be nice depth and could probably start at either LG or RT as soon as 2016.
Right listen up because I’m not saying this twice.
The best thing about this blog is the community — for seven years the comments section has avoided falling off a cliff like a lot of other websites/forums and I intend to keep it that way. I have the power to block people commenting and I will take it if needs be.
Some of the stuff written in reaction to this post is just not acceptable. Feel free to have the opinion that Clark deserves a second chance in the NFL or that you are very comfortable with the Seahawks taking him. Talking about the incident, indulging in conjecture and making negative remarks about the victim will not be tolerated.
That’s it as far as I’m concerned, otherwise I’ll just delete the post.
Hear, hear. Thank you, Rob. I really appreciate what you’ve built here and the quality of the comments and community. It’s one of the few places on the internet where I’m willing to actually read and participate in a comment section. Some of the stuff being written on this is just scary though–glad you’re taking a stand to keep it from turning into another reddit or whatever.
I love your blog Rob and respect your leadership here. I hope you don’t take my response as a challenge.
The point I wanted to make was that the accepted facts, which paint him as an abuser, might not be accurate. I don’t agree with convicting Clark in the “people’s court.”
Without speculating on what happened, I will say that if he lost his temper, made a mistake and knows he was wrong, I could be ok with signing him, but it would depend on how far over the line the alleged abuse was, which again, I dont know. I believe in second chances but not for everything.
Most of the discussion here is related to the incident, and it is no surprise that things get heated.
What I think we can agree on, however, is that Clark is—unfortunately—a great prospect.
Good job Rob!!!
Not too worried about guys with red flags joining this team, I think we have enough locker room leadership to right this ship. There’s a clip from Real Rob Report (in 2012) where Christine Michaels was about to start his rap and his first couple lines were about drugs and Clem chimed in about 5secs into his rap to shut it down. Yelled at him, saying “we don’t talk like that here!”. Christine walks away, not even saying another word.
Like an older brother yelling at his younger brother, and I think that set precedence for guys like Kam, Earl, Sherm, and the rest of the team that those types of behaviors won’t be tolerated in a championship atmosphere. Damn I miss Clem…
So bring in DGB, Frank Clark, and whomever. I think our locker room is pretty tight. Now these guys joining the 2014 Bears or Browns, maybe a different story…
I remember that clip. Good stuff.
I really thought we should have hung on to Clem, especially if he would have agreed to the contract he signed in JAX with us.
Get ready for the Breshard Perriman hype machine to get rolling. At his pro day he ran anywhere from 4.19-4.27. At 6’2 217. That’s impressive even if you as .05 because it was all hand timed.
Yes his drops are concerning but everything else screams stud receiver.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000481537/article/breshad-perriman-of-ucf-uses-fast-40-to-boost-draft-stock
I’m looking forward to seeing what Graham brings to the receivers/TE room. I believe he may be able to help some of our receivers get better. If we drafted someone like Perriman, having Jimmy provide some guidance would be great.
Maybe the Perriman hype machine can further tamp down the Coates hype machine that has gotten pretty quiet. I really like Coates and a 3rd round pick is about where he becomes a value. I know he isn’t especially natural in his catching technique – but he tracks the deep ball so well and he could be a good all around receiver with some work. Benjamin’s hands were a major question going into last year and he certainly had a huge impact regardless.
I also want to like Coates. But his hands.
It’s hard to ignore the disparity between stages in the careers of Hardy and Rice, but I’m not sure that’s entirely the reason why RIce is too toxic to touch. After all, he just turned 28 and is still capable of making a contribution.
I think the reason nobody wants anything to do with Rice is because of the video. We can read all the sordid, mean details about DV incidents we want – crime reports, witness statements, etc. – none of these have the same impact as watching Rice cold cock his wife.
I’m not suggesting in the least that RIce’s incident is more serious or more deserving of scrutiny than any of Hardy, Clark, DGB or anyone else simply because we can see exactly what happened. It’s all ugly. But there’s no denying the impact and lasting impression of having that ugliness bared for all the world to see, as many times as we want.
Professional football is a violent, physical activity, the modern day equivalent of a Roman arena full of gladiators engaged in blood sport. Ok maybe not that extreme, but we still can’t escape the reality of what pro football is. What we can do is demand more from and of those who engage in the sanctioned violence on field by not tolerating any violence off it.
The simple answer, Rice was starting to look old and slow as a RB… 2 years ago. Hardy is still in his prime.
You’re right about Rice. But I still think if we had video of a 6’4″ 260# Hardy dragging his girlfriend by her hair from room to room before choking and threatening to kill her he’d never play another down in the NFL.
Agree. Makes it hit home. With all of these incidents other than Rice, we can delude/convince ourselves that something other than the worst may have happened. We don’t know, so we can’t judge as harshly. It’s the difference between being intellectually aware that there is collateral civilian damage in warfare and actually seeing a picture of a naked little girl running down the street with napalm burns. The impact of the former is quickly forgotten, ignored, or accepted, while the impact of the latter hasn’t faded much in more than 40 years.
I agree with Chawk’s premise that seeing the incident has made it so much harder for Rice to come back and if there was video of hardy then it would be less subjective.
Also I wonder how much weight is put into the first sort of acknowledgement of a terrible action by all of us. I’m rambling but can any of you remember when Michael Richards aka Kramer on Seinfeld went on a racist tirade a decade ago? It basically ruined him….but last year or two years ago riley coooer gets drunk with his boys at some concert makes a racist tirade and gets what a game suspension….i just wonder if the shock where’s off too quickly sometimes as these incidents seem to keep repeating.
Edit: I know racism and domestic violence are different, btw
Richards idiotic statements were part of a very long tirade. Riley’s tirade was short. Both are unacceptable. Richards was much more famous at the time than Cooper, who most people had never heard of before that incident. So, it is not surprising Richards incident had bigger legs.
I just wonder if people get number to behavior. First rice and shock, then Peterson and people talk about “well she I was a kid…..”. Then hardy it gets,even more ridiculous….hes found guilty. Requests essentially a more favorable trial and pays off the woman involved, so then the he said she said starts….which should have just been a,she said he paid with no grey area….
Down the line I wonder if the shock just becomes something accepted…
I have been really impressed with the general equanimity of the comments about the allegations that surround Frank Clark. I am a public defense attorney in a small Washington county; and I assure all of you that, when it comes to criminal allegations and domestic violence investigations, things are rarely as “cut and dried” as police allegations and media releases make them seem.
When I began my criminal defense practice, I had a lot of assumptions about people charged with crimes and assumptions about police officers. I had both sets of assumptions shattered. People charged with crimes do not “glow in the dark.” Police officers do not walk on water–they don’t always “get it right” or “tell the truth.” Think about it this way: In Washington, it’s a crime to lie to a police officer, but police officers can legally lie to defendants to trick them into making incriminating statements. How do we reconcile that with expecting the most integrity from the persons entrusted with the most power?
I implore all of you intelligent critical thinkers not to assume that someone is guilty or violent due to the allegations in a police report which gets leaked to the media. I have represented plenty of guilty defendants, but I have also represented a bunch of guys who were deemed the aggressor in a domestic violence situation simply because they had external genitalia and more physical strength. There is a social paradigm that women are weaker and men should never hit a woman. What are men supposed to do when women hit them?
I am not saying that women “are asking for it.” I am just saying that toxic relationships and domestic violence allegations are complex things that cannot be unraveled by reviewing a brief news article or a police report. As a person who has represented the accused for 5 years, I can tell you that they are not monsters. A lot of them are broken people who need help. Some are innocent; and, yes, some are despicable sadists. You cannot really know who is who until you get more deeply into the situation. Don’t make an Olympic event out of “jumping to conclusions.” As readers, we have very little reliable information about this kid. Keep an open mind.
I don’t say this to excuse sadism and criminality because an NFL player/prospect has talent. Like a lot of folks, I hate that we gloss over depravity or criminality just because the perpetrator is gifted. I just hope to remind all of you that there are people behind the allegations we read in very short media releases. The issues are more complex than we know, and we should resist the temptation to assume things about a situation based on little information.
Trust in Pete and John. Go Hawks!
That’s eloquently put but not reality. The defendants that you are paid by are not the victims and though police officer play above the law and without personal first hand knowledge of the situation and the relationship that are being discussed we clearly know this “man” may deserve a second chance can you say that he deserves it in the NFL representing the Seahawks? I can’t I see this team as a family in that locker room and people who over came great odds with chips on there shoulder to be great in spite of life obstacles. I don’t believe that knocking a woman unconscious has anything to due with life’s obstacles but to do with personal choices and lack of respect for another human being. I have come from a family that chose to live in drugs and violence and I don’t take my kids to see any of them . My job as a father is to teach my kids that that is not acceptable no matter what. I know if one of my kids crossed that line I would Still love them but I wouldn’t welcome them in I Would have to back their victims girlfriend or otherwise.
You missed his point.
Sometimes his defendants ARE victims because DV is a complex issue and the state will automatically side with the woman because the male is perceived the “stronger” sex.
And yes, you are doing exactly what he’s imploring us all not to do … which is automatically jump to conclusions based on media or police reports because in his experience they can sometimes be wrong and inaccurate. There’s so much about DV that is difficult to know. Did you even read past his first paragraph?
He’s speaking from firsthand experience dealing with DV cases. To accuse him of not talking about “reality” is comically ironic.
Arias,
Thank you for the thoughtful defense of my position. I was actually really grateful for Redzone’s response, because I battle with the same “assumptions” that he articulated. I am a man who was raised not to hit girls. The hardest part of my job each day is not to succumb to the judgment that is so easy to make. So many of us behave responsibly and make the right choices that it is very easy to assume the worst about someone who is merely accused of not behaving as nobly.
I am at risk of hijacking this conversation because I live these issues each day and find them invigorating and challenging. To bring it back to sports, I say this:
Frank Clark is a kid. A big, strong kid who comes from a background we do not understand. The woman he is ostensibly accused of assaulting also comes from a background we don’t understand. For all we know, she could have a criminal history of crimes of violence. We don’t know enough to shun him, judge him, or evaluate his “worthiness” to join the Hawks.
Trust in Pete and John. And, thanks for the great dialogue.
Well said….
Redzone,
Thank you for describing my post as “eloquent.” I found it provocative that you describe it as “not reality.” I tried to convey the very reality I experience in my job. I wish you, as a self-described father and teacher, could spend a month with me. You would see my clients as children of other parents who are accused. You would see them as people, and you wouldn’t be so willing, I suspect, to assume the worst. You would, I believe, see that the police who accuse people are flawed and have incomplete understanding of the “truth” when they arrest someone. If police always got it right, we wouldn’t need juries and there wouldn’t be the ‘innocence project.”
Anyway, sorry for making this about something other than sports. Go Hawks!
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
First hand experience can be invaluable in dealing with issues like this. Your perspective in this regard is well taken. If I understand you correctly, crimes, and the circumstances in which perpetrators find themselves, lie along a spectrum of severity.
For example, most of us would agree there’s a difference between drug crimes for marijuana as opposed to something like methamphetamine. Likewise, there’s a difference between mere personal possession and possession with intent to distribute.
This spectrum of severity holds true for DV crimes as well. A shouting match between spouses just isn’t the same thing as when the coroner shows up. I also take your point about how “facts” – or more correctly, what is reported as such – can be wildly incomplete or inaccurate. Witnesses have biases that affect how they perceive events, as well as how they would report them to authorities. Even the most well-intentioned police officer can make a mistake in his/her report.
Having said all that, there are some facts that speak for themselves. In the case in point, Clark’s gf was found unconscious immediately following, and as a direct result of, a physical altercation with Clark. That’s not a fact subject to misinterpretation, or faulty recollection, etc. They fought, she ended up knocked out. Unless he reasonably (and that’s a standard I’ve no doubt you’re quite familiar with counselor) thought he was in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, there can be no justification amongst civilized persons for his actions on that occasion.
CHawk Talker Eric,
You hit on a really cool point. In my limited experience (5 years), I have seen two different ways for a police officer to describe an “unresponsive subject.”
By way of illustration of my point, f the police officer responds to an alleged DUI, he describes the subject as “passed out.” We, naturally, associate “passed out” with someone who has consumed too much alcohol. If the same police officer responds to an alleged assault, he describes the victim as “unconscious.” Those different verbal choices carry profound connotations, do they not?
I need to go read more about Clark’s incident to see if I can get a better sense of that specific case. I can assure you, though, that police couch their terminology in a way that promotes/supports their assumptions about an incident.
If Mr. Clark’s alleged victim was drunk and unconscious, but also an alleged victim of assault, the police writing the investigative report may emphasize her injuries in a way to suggest that those injuries have caused her unresponsiveness. Similarly, they will minimize the role that intoxication played in her “unresponsiveness” or “unconsciousness.”
In Washington, if a person beat another person into unconsciousness, they would be facing felony charges. If this young man is not facing felony charges there, then the allegations against him, in my not so humble opinion, do not pass the smell test.
I dunno ontoic. I just reread the Cooper article and there’s nothing to suggest she was unresponsive from intoxication as opposed to unconscious from assault. While a newspaper article isn’t the end all and say all of this incident, I would think there’d be some mention of that possibility by the reporter (even if not from the police).
Also, the article clearly states his gf refused to go to a hospital or to press charges. While the prosecutor still could have pressed charges without her assistance, it’s highly unlikely they would.
I think ontoic’s point here is that the police officer is making assumptions that is going to color any report that the unconsciousness is a result of an assault. The police officer was not there to witness what happened, he’s going by a certain set of assumptions based in large part on the context in which he approached the alleged scene of the crime. If the woman were unconscious from intoxication that he wasn’t aware of, he’d write up the report using his assumptions of DV being responsible for her unconsciousness.
Any reporter covering the story is going to be basing the article off the police report. So of course reading the article, it would contain nothing about her possibly being intoxicated.
That’s all well and good to consider the reasons for her unconsciousness, which it looks like the responding officer did since he gave her a portable breathalyzer test that came back as .000.
Seems like our society is getting away from the basic tenet that a person’s guilt or innocence is supposed to be decided in the courts, and not in the media. IMHO, we can’t decide whether Frank Clark is guilty of a crime until he has had his day in court, but we can decide if we want to root for him or for a team that decides to hire him. With the Seahawks’ near miss in the last SuperBowl and their win in the prior SuperBowl, the team obviously is a good or even great one — they don’t have to throw discretion to the winds in making their draft choices. With their growing popularity among football fans, why would Paul Allen, Pete Carroll, and John Schneider want to risk alienating the fan base by selecting Frank Clark in the draft? There are many other talented players out there ….
So we side with the defendant until he is proven guilty by a set of rules that men have created to ensure fairness? Seems reasonable right? Well, consider then, that you are effectively siding with the abuser. You are essentially forcing the abused to relive the incident and requiring that she have more proof of guilt than the abuser is required to have of innocence.
Sorry, I side with the abused until I know for a fact they were not abused. Women (our mothers, daughters and sisters) deserve our trust and protection not silence on the matter, no matter the way in which this nation’s laws are currently written.
Remember the allegations against Ray Lewis? I still think he got away with murder and he was allowed to play in the NFL and is now respected by many (not me) as a great football player and model. I don’t like domestic violence either but what Clark may have done to his girlfriend that night was much less serious than what Lewis allegedly did. If we knew that Clark was a serial abuser then it’s easy, we don’t draft him and honestly, he’d be probably be blacklisted by most if not every NFL team. Since the NFL allows teams to draft players with backgrounds like Clark’s AND if the Hawks’ due diligence determine that he’s a good risk to not re-offend, then why wouldn’t we draft him? If he’s that good and can help you win, how do you not draft him due to some moral high ground, especially in such a competitive and cut throat arena like the NFL? Clark may not be angel but then again, how many pro athletes are?
Has there been any scuttlebutt about the Seahawks signing anyone form the Vet Combine?
The LB Copeland might be worth taking a flier on.. good size and speed.
Rob;
A log time ‘silent-reader’ here making my first comment on what you said about community and other websites sliding down a slippery slope that just leads to a degeneration of the dialogue.
You are quite right; I come here because I enjoy your insightful, remarkably researched posts and the knowledgeable comments from your regulars. It’s refreshing to find a site where people REALLY DO talk about football and only football and do it coming from a place of actually knowing what they’re talking about.
I’ve seen a lot of other sites (no names here) fade away or crash and burn due to bickering and name calling in the comments sections-to the point where they’re just too painful to read. And it’s nowhere near as interesting or entertaining as listening to well informed discussions of the sport and the team I love so much.
As to controversy, everyone has a right to their opinions and to have that right respected, but hand in hand with that is the need to self-monitor and protect that right and this precious cyber-corner of sanity and football knowledge that is so irreplaceable.
Rob-guy; you’re the best. Let’s keep it that way.
i was talking with a lady I know about the Ray Rice video and She basically said he should be banned for life. She really didn’t care whether he was convicted or what punishment Goodell hands down. She was after blood. There is an active group of people just like her, and even though it kills me when she can’t remember Seattles QB, she represents a group with influence. So the domestic violence issues could blow up on a team in a hurry. It only takes one group picketing to make national news.
This harkens back to the video… My girlfriend says Ray Rice should be banned for life. She also says Greg hardy? Who is that? Public backlash will be far greater on any team that signs Rice because his video was on the Today Show and your average American watched him hit his wife and drag her out of the elevator. Maybe Frank Clark did worse. Maybe Greg hardy did worse. But my girlfriend along with the vast majority of average American women do not know who they are.
Yes getting caught on video makes it easier to prosecute and all the news networks broadcast it. Whatever team picks up these players, the owners wife will bet questions from her friends in their social circles.
There was an article on NFL.com about potnetial offseason trades. Short version for Hawks was to trade for Michael Bennet to Atlanta for one or two “day 2 picks.” What do you guys think? With Marsh coming back and more earlier picks I can only imagine what PCJS would do.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000481470/article/trades-wed-love-to-see-happen-this-offseason
For 73 alone? No.
For 73 and 107? Hmmm that’s pretty interesting.
BrianH
No “day two pick” can be reasonably expected to generate the sort of disruption that we get out of Bennett on a daily basis. This sort of fanciful sports writing is fun from the standpoint of mental gymnastics, but that’s it. I don’t think Bennett is at the stage in his career where he’s going to fold up and underperform because he’s not making JJ Watt money.
Still, there is a little bit of me that wonders whether Schneider could turn Bennett into two starting players!
Go Hawks.
We draft all those prospects just hoping to find a Bennett. No way that trade makes sense
Agreed. Bennett is not just “a starting player’. The guy is one of the best in the NFL at what he does. Quick as hell, vicious competitor, skilled and prideful, team player, etc.
I am a big fan of Michael Bennett.
It’s the sort of move you’d make if you’re willing to get worse this season in order to get better in the future. There’s certainly something to be said for trying to extend the window of contention, but I think this team, coming off back-to-back super bowls, is going to be going for it (possibly last year for Lynch and Okung, extensions for Wilson and Wagner tightening the budget, etc.), and they really can’t afford to lose Bennett.
Just to play devil’s advocate…
A number of people in this thread are saying that they’d be upset and/or lose respect for the organization if they drafted Frank Clark.
If that is the case, why don’t you feel the same way about the organization employing a coach who has been accused of abuse by multiple women? Why such strong feelings about Hardy being on the team but seemingly ok with Tom Cable?
Great point! My friend joked, when Cable was hired, that the Seahawks’ players would learn, or Cable would break their jaws!
Like I said above. No one said anything when we signed Tony McDaniel or Kevin Williams. I’m not advocating DV I just don’t understand those who are against getting ball players who’ve committed some form of DV but yet we have two on the team already and I don’t remember people complaining then. (Pete Carroll said they’re tryin to k. Williams back today)
Lack of knowledge, really. Before the Hardy conversation I wasn’t aware of these cases. Remember, the higher profile the athlete, the more likely that a larger Fan public will be aware of their background. Most don’t know about A.J. Jefferson’s problems, but Browner’s were well-known, discussed, and debated by the fanbase (not equating these examples, mind you).
Personally speaking, I became a Seahawks fan long before I learned about Cable’s history with domestic violence. I did feel disappointment at first, but I figure that since it happened before I became invested in the team, they’ve got nothing to prove to me. They can’t retroactively change anything and it’s not something they should change now. Cable hasn’t been involved in anything since joining the Seahawks as far as I know.
This is a great point Cysco. That’s why when I read some here say they’d be disappointed and lose respect for the team it’s pretty hard to take those charges seriously. It’s not going to make them not a fan anymore and it’s something they’ll get over pretty quick. I’ve seen some of those same people (not necessarily implying here, but elsewhere as well) be some of Tom Cable’s biggest defenders and supporters of his invaluable contributions to the team claim they’ll be disappointed if the team gives a guy like Frank Clark a 2nd chance.
I do find it wildly hypocritical.
If Cable was never given a 2nd chance at employment by another team, he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in right now to make invaluable contributions to the Seahawks. The team would be worse off for it.
I was not a fan of the hiring of Tom Cable because of his past. But, he is with the Seahawks now. I defend him regarding his coaching, which is something entirely different than him personally. Thankfully, times have changed now and his behavior and others like his are not just overlooked and tolerated. The Ray Rice video has changed the discussion now. To say that the Seahawks have an existing player with domestic violence is something different than saying that they will go out and get more.
I do not think that is hypocritical at all.
I think there is an element of time involved with some of these other players like Cable. I am not aware of his prior history, and my guess is that at this point it is history and not current events. If he goes out tomorrow and slaps his gf or wife around and it makes the news then I WILL be calling for his scalp. None of these coachs and players are irreplaceable, with the exception of Pete Carroll. The rest are just along for the ride.
AlaskaHawk, I share your feelings on this matter and I have VERY strong feelings about DV. But I am on this site and many others because I am a Seahawks fan, 100% no matter what. If they signed Hardy and Rice, and drafted Clark I would still be a fan (my wife wouldn’t – she was ready to dump us if Hardy signed). I do hope we avoid players and coaches like Hardy and Cable from now on, but the NFL should be the one making the stand. If they leave it to the teams, than the team that makes a moral stand is working at a disadvantage.
It is my hope, Rob, that you not stop writing articles like this. I’m guessing that a large part of you regrets it, considering the reaction. However, when my wife always questions my obsession with football, I respond that it mimics life, with all its pitfalls, victories, and defeats.
Probably the most famous yogi from India in the 20th century was seen hiding from his devotees in a movie theatre watching black and white westerns. When asked about it, he said, “If only life were so easy as these movies, where the good people wear white and the bad people wear black. But life has been given to us in shades of gray.”
Good job tackling a sensitive subject. There will be times that the hawks front office will make decisions that piss off a segment of their fans because of the question of morality. The subject occasionally needs to be addressed. I knew nothing about Frank Clark before your article.
And in reality, I still know nothing about him, but I will at least know where the reaction is coming from, in the event he is drafted by seattle.
IDK I’m not comfortable discussing topics like this. It’s up to the FO to figure out if this guy is worth it or not. As an UDFA? Absolutely. Show us your willing to change. Top 100? Not so much.
I’m all for second chances, hell, even 3rd chances, but this kid has been giving 2 or 3 shots. And the whole DV thing going on right now might be too much. Yeah K-Will and Tony McD have DV issues in the past, but weren’t those years ago, when the NFL wasn’t placing Su h an emphasis on cracking down on DVs?
I like Frank Clark. I really do. I’m hoping he turns it around. He’s got all the talent in the world. No doubt that. But taking a guy so early send the wrong message. He wasn’t caught stealing to fed himself or family, he wasn’t busted for dealing drugs because him or his family needed money. Things like this strike me as selfish. But again, who am to say?
I’d rather Seattle target guys like this…
So many folks saying they are all for 2nd chances or even 3rd chances. What does this mean? At one extreme — do you give Aaron Hernandez a 2nd chance? Not if he’s convicted. At the other extreme, do you give Brandon Browner a 2nd chance for missing a drug test when he wasn’t even in the league? Sure. IMHO, you have to look at each situation, learn the facts, then decide if the risks justify the potential rewards. The Seahawks are in an enviable position where they can be selective about who they choose to employ — they don’t have to close their eyes to potential problems in the clubhouse or with potential push back from the fan base. We don’t need Frank Clark.
Great thoughts Phil. I agree.
This is a really interesting topic and one I have been thinking about ever since I heard that Greg Hardy might come in for a visit.
My gut reaction, then and now, is I don’t want to be forced to root for a guy in Seahawks gear who has committed an act of domestic violence. Quite honestly it bothers me. Maybe I’m not seeing all the angles, but I don’t see that as defendable.
We all root for the Hawks, and for 3 hrs each week we enter this zone where we clear out other distractions and focus on our team. It’s almost a ritual and part of our collective community. But when the game is over, real life returns. That real life includes sisters, wives, girlfriends, what have you. Rooting for a guy with a DV incident on his record is like saying, hey, let’s suspend my personal principles for 3 hrs because I enjoy watching the other team’s QB turned into meatloaf.’ Maybe some of us can bridge that divide, but I can’t.
Syracuse DB Durrell Eskridge. Might have a new man crush. Special qualities? Potential to elevate a program? Deone Bucannon esque? Can play CB in a pinch?
This story sheds light on the type of prospects Seattle likes. Again it’s just my opinion. Which accounts for nothing. But, if interested, take a look. He’d fit this team to a T. His tape and production are also quite good. Only a jr., so he presents a coaching staff a ton to work with and is a standout on ST.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJV3vaSkfDM
It’s interesting reading all the comments.But I must say the biggest problem i have with them and America is Hypocrisy.
Please do some research,don’t just fire off comments without seeing the big picture. And more importantly,just cause you wouldn’t, doesn’t mean it’s black and white.The NFL is violence.Violence against women in the black culture is promoted thru rap and other forms and pay attention,just as virulent in other cultures.White,brown,whatever.
Violence against women has been and is endemic to all societies.
When did it become acceptable for everyone to make moral judgements about everyone and everything.You ain’t nobody
More importantly,it’s a sport.It’s bread and circus for the masses.
Better yet Use your indignation for a warmongering country that kills millions of innocent people so you can live your privileged lives.
Sorry Rob,I do love your site
I really hope they will not touch the guy. If they do, they will make me disrespect myself.
I hate DV crimes. I personally think those are truly despicable acts. I would hate for such a guy to be my friend or a member of my favorite football team.
On the other hand i am a firm believer in the system that sends the police to catch those guys and a Judge and jury to punish them for their acts. I am not particularly fond of other organizations punishing alleged perpetrators. That extends to football teams refusing to sign them just like it does to food-chains refusing to sell them food etc. (I also believe in 2nd chance for people who paid for their crimes and that the errors of your youth should not define the rest of your life…)
My personal “contradictory” beliefs on this issue would make me hate myself no mater what. I really hope they will allow me to hold on to my beliefs by skipping this guy.
I’ll bring it up again. If Clark being a Seahawk would cause you to “hate yourself”, then why don’t you hate yourself already given the fact that:
Tom Cable is your Asst. Head Coach
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4613549
Tony McDaniel is on your defense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4895796
Kevin Williams has been on the team and will likely be on it again
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2157113
Why is Clark so different and why would his signing cause such extreme emotion whey you’ve been fine supporting a team that employs people charged with domestic violence for years?
Get rid of them all. I would not shed a tear. The discussion has thankfully changed now. Before Ray Rice, things like this were out of sight, out of mind. Now, we know better. However, if the team chooses to continue to employ people that they have already employed, I understand this and it is in a different category than going out and hiring someone new because we do know better now.
Just because they made mistakes in the past doesn’t mean they wouldn’t try to change their hiring behavior in the future. As I said in a post above, the only person that isn’t replaceable is Pete Carroll. The rest can be replaced, even our two precocious babies Marshawn Lynch and Russell Wilson.
To be honest, I’m an Israeli fan of the hawks since 1979. I did not pay attention to the history of those guys since those events were not fresh before they joined us. Call it helpful bliss. It made it easier to ignore when i found out long after they were part of the team.
I’m not in that position with regards to Clark. I can make a great case about errors of your youth etc.
It won’t help my urge to deal with it with a dull rusty knife…
So, i hope they stay away from this guy. I’m selfish that way.
I was sure I am the only one Hawks Israeli fan here. Glad to be wrong.
Yeah Israeli 12s!! When I was living in Germany, I was so surprised – but I saw quite a few 12 flags on houses and on cars. Once in Paris, I came out of a metro stop and sitting at a café was a guy (originally from Vancouver, Canada as it turned out) wearing a 12 flag shirt – it was so clearly two flags sewn together with arm holes. I stopped and we chatted about, of all things, how excited I was about the signing of Matt Flynn. He was less sure, he thought we needed to address the QB position in the draft. How right that crazy 12 flag guy was!! I was so shocked at how far and wide you find Hawk fans – it’s awesome, baby (sorry wrapped up in tourney time)!
The question of can we deal with a player who has a history, or at least an instance of domestic abuse is personal for me. For my whole career after college I was a mental health counselor. I worked in mental health centers, hospitals, and in private practice. Whether by court order or family intervention I counseled several abusers over the years. None of them seemed to be monsters to me, and nearly all of them were remorseful about their actions. They were people.
On the other hand, the behavior of domestic abuse, of hitting and hurting a domestic partner, is a most difficult behavior to treat or change. First of all, the behavior comes at a time of high emotion, mostly anger, and low thinking. During therapy, you can go over situations and suggest alternative behaviors, but there is no way to simulate the levels of anger and energy that arise during a real dispute.
Some of the worst abusers are the most remorseful. Some of the most motivated to change are the first to reoffend.
When emotions are high, thinking is low, behavior tends to what one is used to. That is what makes changing abusive behavior difficult.
There is also good input about the woman’s role. In most cases that I worked with it became apparent that the partner needs to be involved. When an abuser is trying to change behavior is important for the partner to learn to not escalate the behavior or be provocative. Victim behavior is also a problem and needs to be addressed.
Finally, I have to say that this is one of the most difficult behaviors to change. Someone earlier mentioned drunk drivers and there has been mention of other offenders, but it is difficult to find a behavior that is more intractable than domestic assault. A drinker can change more easily, the choice is made without emotion. But, to make a choice when all you can see is red, that is different.
I will add, that I have had a couple of instances in which the woman was the assaulter. In both cases that I remember, the woman would throw things when she was angry, and in one case, as I recall, she had a good arm.
I can make no judgement about Clark, or any other public figure, but I would suggest caution.
Well said.
Great post. Personally, I don’t want seattle to draft him. Someone will take him and he will get his chance to continue a career, and much like Greg Hardy, it’s better if someone else takes on that project. I’m not a save the world kind of person, and I don’t desire the hawks organization to be the personal counselors of every troubled player in the NFL. I also don’t want an inner conflict of rooting for him when he physically knocks a qb down.
I also don’t know any of the facts regarding the incident so I can’t say he’s disqualified himself from earning a career. I just don’t want it in seattle.
I currently work in the mentor health field. I agree it’s volume. Well said.
Mental*
It’s a tough one.
I have no problem winning with G’s like Marshawn, Browner, Sweezy, and Irvin, as that edgey approach translates to the field with those guys. Violence against women just doesn’t sit well with me; we can win Super Bowls without those types. With Clark or Hardy, fair or unfair, you just don’t have the distance in time from incident to make a clearer decision on the man like you did with McDaniel and K Williams.
Comment regarding drafting criteria from 2012…
@SI_DougFarrar Asked Seahawks GM John Schneider about risky players a while back. He mentioned violence against women as a specific deal-breaker.
https://twitter.com/si_dougfarrar/status/235026233187000321
he’s brought in free agents with domestic incidents (ie Cary Williams, Kevin Williams), so maybe it’s more about not taking a draft risk on a player working out combined with abuse, but giving some leeway on proven vets.
I find that inconsistency troublesome. Whatever the policy is, why isn’t is applied equally? So what if it’s a veteran.
This thread alone proves how someone like Clark or Hardy on the roster can fracture a fan base. I don’t know how Dallas is going to handle it. The Ray Lewis thing is still unsavory, and it doesn’t matter what he accomplished on the field.
I am inclined to agree. The incidents involving both Willamses were several years ago (2010 for Cary, 2005 for Kevin). In Cary’s case he wasn’t arrested. I think that taking a chance on someone whose arrest was so recent that they might still face a suspension levied by the NFL is different than someone who has had time to show that they aren’t a repeat offender.
If they wouldn’t take a draft risk on a player with DV they wouldn’t be sniffing around DGB.
Perhaps, if the player has genuinely been reformed or cleaned up their act.. then the Seahawks are willing to give them another chance. We are talking about incidents between 5-10 years ago.
I’m not sure that’s the case either. Tony McDaniel was just a couple years removed from his incident when signed and it generated bad enough publicity for him that made it difficult for his former team to consider re-signing him. Carroll chose to hire Cable and give him a 2nd chance in spite of Al Davis of all people citing Cable not disclosing his DV history with 3 different women as a reason for his firing, two of which allegedly occurred while he was coach of the Raiders.
I agree that the heightened PR hit now would dwarf anything from even just a few years ago. But from something Schneider might have said in 2012 that didn’t seem to be consistent with what the team did back then either.
Guys, as a woman, I have seen fan wearing Ray Rice jerseys and making excuses for the things that happen between men and women – I’m not that kind of fan. I wouldn’t want Seattle drafting guys like Clark, even if they are good football players. Can people change – yes. Can they learn from their mistakes – yes. And while I would support our team, I won’t be buying or wearing a jersey of a guy like this. Just my opinion – and I understand that everyone has their own.
There is a Grantland article that quoted Clark at the combine as follows:
hen he moved on to the arrest. “Basically, I put myself in the position I shouldn’t have been in,” Clark began, again sticking to the usual script.
Then it all went downhill.
“It could have all been avoided,” Clark went on, “if I’d said, ‘No, I don’t want to go to Sandusky. No, I don’t want to go the water park.’”
Eyebrows raised around the table. Deciding not to go to an Ohio water park may be sound thinking generally, but it’s not usually part of the avoiding-domestic-violence process. Clark could have left it at that, but then he wandered mentally back into the Sandusky motel room and had a whole crowd of reporters reliving the experience. “When we were in the room,” he said, “the person involved let something get out of hand and took something further than what it was planned.”
He smiled. Reporters were scribbling madly.
“I’m not saying I’m a womanizer or anything of that nature,” he protested. “I’m just saying it was a confrontation … and the woman involved took it to another level that it shouldn’t have been taken to.”
Again, blank stares and scribbling.
“That’s fine. I’m not throwing her under the bus. I’m not saying she did anything wrong. I’m just saying that a lot of things that happened in that room that night could have been avoided.”
A few minutes later Clark was scooted out of the room.
As a female I obviously have strong opinions about domestic violence and feel there should be a zero tolerance for this type of behavior. Not just allegations however there has to be proof or a conviction. I would also no want people to loose their livelihood without a burden of proof being required.
I feel like a criminal convictions should be dealt with in this manner. Things like DUI also kill and are a huge problem in society. With so many players available why do organizations even have to consider such players. Most corporations will never hire a person with a criminal record and put them in a Position of Trust. Why is the NFL any different. What does it tell our youth when a guy like Greg Hardy can have a domestic violence and gun related charges conviction (I realize it was later thrown out on a technicality) and then turn around and sign a $13 million dollar contract because he can rush the passer.
So basically you can beat up a woman and have a arsenal of assault weapons as long you have a rare enough skill and talent all will be forgiven and you can make millions of dollars.
I just think it sends to wrong message to our youth and really is an indictment on our society as a whole. I realize people make mistakes and agree with second chances but not in high profile positions of trust is it time that athletes, entertainers and other public figures get treated like everyone else in society.
I hope we get another Canadian from Rice. Just like Luke Willson was a Canadian from Rice coming off an injury plagued season in his draft year so is Christian Covington.
He had a great pro day yesterday and would be a great pick if we can get him with one of our fourth round picks. I think he could be a quality addition to our defensive line rotation as penetrating defensive tackle similar to Jordan Hill.
I thought we really missed an inside pass rush last year in the playoffs last year when Hill was hurt.
Do you guys think he will be available with one of our 4th round picks?
I would like to see us go with WR and Center with our first 2 picks then in the 4th round take Shaq Riddick as an edge rusher, Christian Covington as penetrating DT and Mitch Morse at Guard. What do you think?
There’s enough depth at WR to not have to take one early, if it’s not ‘their’ guy. Quite a few of the receivers they’ve been looking at or bringing into the VMAC are mid to late rounders.
I like Shaq Riddick, and Mitch Morse. I just can’t shake the Lynden Trail connection to PC. He’s so unique and versatile. Can play the back-up LEO role, back-up SAM role, could slide inside on occasion with his length, and also be used down on the goal line as TE, kind of like how Houston uses JJ Watt down there. Doesn’t mean they’ll take him though. If not him, then yeah go after Riddick.
Not a fan of Covington personally, but I do get the appeal. I’d personally rather see them take a Kristjan Sokoli, Tory Slater. Someone like that. Incredible athlete, production, coachable, great fit in the locker room. I’m not saying that Covington isn’t those things, just not sure how much of a difference maker he is.
I agree the PC connection is intriguing, but I don’t think Trail is athletic enough to play LEO or SAM. He’s also kind of big (tall) for those positions. The biggest problem with him is he just doesn’t impact games. I could almost (almost) see him bulking up and playing Big Red’s 5T role. What do you think about that?
Riddick is much closer to the prototypical LEO. Give him an off season with pro trainers to add some muscle and he could be an impact player in the vein of Irvin.
Thanks for the feedback. I like the look of Sokoli as well.
Do you really think our wide receiving group is strong enough to wait to take a mid to late round flyer. Most of those guys take a long time to develop and many just become average players or out of the league.
I will go as far as saying once P Rich went down last year we had the weakest wide receiver group in the league except for maybe Cleveland. I think we have to take an early round guy who can return kicks like (Agholor, Lockette, Dorsett) and then a later round guy to develop like (Mcbride, Waller, Conely or the kid out of Nebraska).
I realize we got Graham and he will help our passing game a lot but there is still no reason to not significantly upgrade the wide receiver position. I know everyone likes to uncover the late round small school gems and our front office has done a good job at that but not at the wide receiver position. I hope if Agholor, Dorsett or Lockette are available they make the pick as it would greatly improve our kick return game and wide receiver group from day #1
I agree it needs to be upgraded. But just because a guy is a 2nd or 3rd round WR doesn’t guarantee he’ll have any more success than a mid or late rounder. I think Seattle’s proven that to an extent. And multiple other teams. Last year’s draft kind of skewed the perception/expectation of rookie wide-outs.
When you look at the WRs on the roster now, and the WRs we like in this draft, who do you see as the X and Z receivers? Baldwin has the Y slot receiver job (unless he is supplanted by someone).
You guys all know my favorite peeve is to avoid having too many of the Y type.
I believe in 2013, Rice was the X, Tate was a Z, Baldwin the Y, and Harvin was supposed to be a moveable piece doing all three plus gadget stuff.
A long striding, fast X type—Randy Moss—is missing.
I think we already have X in Graham and Matthews. I also think you can never have enough X players so I want more. I’m thinking that it doesn’t matter if we pick mid-round and hopefully get average or better wide receivers. That is because the Seahawks will be picking wide receiver again next year. I’m figuring an average haul this year which might result in 1-2 more wide receivers, and then next year they will go all in on a tall wide receiver.
I really don’t think Graham should be viewed as an X receiver. He will be used as a receiver, but he is hybrid. I think he should be put in a separate category.
I do think if Matthews shows he is more than a one-game wonder, he is a candidate for the X. But I just do not feel comfortable relying on just him. He is not that fast (4.6 40 time).
So the type of X I want them to have is still to be found.
Covington is intriguing. If he is anything like his father, he is a player. But the injury red flag is a concern.
Do people know that in 2012, Clark pleaded guilty to stealing a Macbook from another room on his residence hall floor while at Michigan? Just something else to think about regarding Clark.
Yeah, it’s just such a touchy subject. I can’t help but wonder if Rob’s feeling like he opened a can of worms. Rob, I’m sorry that you even had to remind people not to speculate on what the woman did or didn’t do in this instance.
I think Rob having this conversation is a good thing. Even though it gets people polarized, it is part of what happens in life and in football.
Someone will draft Clark – and he may be a good football player and maybe he becomes a better person – or maybe not.
Well I was the “speculator”, and it may have been in bad taste but I was speculating hypothetically, to suggest caution in how we approach this and what he assume Clark did. Calling Clark the attacker and the woman the victim is also speculative. I myself have been attacked by a jealous girlfriend literally half my size, chasing me around the house, slapping, kicking, scratching, pulling my hair and so on. It was the middle off the night and all I wanted to do was sleep after work, and she was like a rabid dog, all full of fight, and did every thing she could to provoke me. I did not attack her back, but stopping it wasn’t as easy as some of you make it sound. So that’s one the experiences the report took me back to, and I’m not suggested it s what always happens.
I’ll also say that when you are drunk and uncommunicative with police, they are likely to color their report in a way that doesn’t help you, and that they bring their own experiences to the scene just like we do.
Did you know Paul Richardson was dismissed from UCLA for theft too? Or Cam Newton was arrested for laptop theft at Florida?
I don’t think that sort of thing can really be tied into this. I’d be interested on what he had to say about it and would be digging into whether there were other activities in that area. But 2012 was also a long time ago. If it were a violent crime, assault or DV, that would be completely different as it would establish a pattern of violent behavior he was unable to keep under control.
Totally off topic and irrelevant to SEA, but what do ya’ll think about the #1 pick?
If you’re Lovey Smith and Jason Licht, do you go with Mariota or Winston? Why?
I’m not sure myself. Every time I start to swing towards Winston I see shades of Josh Freeman.
For TB – they need to bring people in, so drafting Winston is likely the move. Personally, I’m not sure either Winston or Mariota will be more than mid level QBs. One has the maturity, but less talent and one has the talent and is immature.
So much of a young QB’s success has to do with what is around him personnel wise. TB has some players. But I would fear that Winston will be close to home and his friends are close by – will he do the work to become a really good QB? Not sure.
I’m not sure who I would draft #1 overall if not Winston – maybe Leonard Williams. Titans should take a guy like Petty in the second and build their d line.
My take on Winston is that he has a stong arm but gets rattled under pressure. He threw a lot of wounded ducks when he was in a defenders arms or backpedaling. If he can overcome that issue, he will be at least an average QB.
Also, if he is really a #1 QB then why did Florida St play from behind in so many games? He was surrounded by a pretty good team. I just think they could have done better in the first half. But I guess teams are desparate and Winston is better then whatever hack he will be replacing.
I think there’s no doubt he’ll do the work. I’ve seen nothing in his character to think he’s like Manziel and will blow off fundamentals like playbook and film study because he’s out partying with his friends. He’s always been a diligent student and especially of football. He commands total respect in the locker room and his on field leadership is without question.
His maturity flags are still a concern. I just don’t think they translate in a way in which he won’t put the work in. But like you said, TB might be too close to home, and he might have some poor influences among his local posse. Who knows, but I can’t imagine TB not thoroughly investigated that possibility and factoring that into whether they decide to invest a #1 pick in him.
I don’t know who I would take with the #1 (whoever it is, the result will likely be better than last year’s #1 pick), but I was thinking back to the NCAA championship game. Mariota was stellar against the Ohio State defense. His only interception came at the very end when the game had been decided. He was quick with the ball and accurate, and very good on his scramble plays, too. Without Mariota, Oregon would have had a much harder time, I think. That said, Oregon went out and recruited a Mariota clone who may turn out to be just as good. Vernon Adams, FCS quarterback from Eastern Washington University (one year of eligibility left). What sucks for EWU is that they play Oregon in their first game of the season. Adams is an amazing talent, very accurate with the ball and another superb scrambler. Thinking down the road, he’d make a terrific back-up to Russell Wilson.
For Tampa, I would go with Mariota. Winston needs a fresh start elsewhere, staying here in the Northern half of Florida carries an additional risk for them. I think he needs a fresh start where he isn’t already a God, it could stunt his maturity if he stays. It may not matter, or it might – I immediately hated the Jerramy Stevens draft pick for the same reason and I think it mattered in that case.
Speaking of second chances, Randy Gregory just announced he failed a drug test at the combine.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000481581/article/randy-gregory-i-blame-myself-for-failed-nfl-combine-drug-test
I don’t know if it will push him all the way to the bottom of the second round, but what if?
You liked Gregory a lot didn’t you Rob?
Not only failed the combine drug test, but also two drug tests during his last year at Nebraska. Shades of Josh Gordon re: lack of maturity. Do we want to go there? Use a pick on someone who may end up with long-term suspensions? That said, I don’t think marijuana should be treated the same as hard drugs and PED’s. No competitive advantage, and legal in some states. I also don’t think he lasts to the end of round 2.
Right. I could care less if an athlete smokes pot. What I do care about is an athlete who puts himself in a position to fail a drug test he knows he’s going to take (and when). It just speaks to poor decision making, and a lack of desire/ability to treat a professional opportunity professionally.
And then throw in the history of indiscriminate use (aka getting caught), and it doesn’t bode well.
The plot thickens. Gregory should drop from the first round because of this. But he is too good. The phrase that we will repeat in many cases: Someone will take a chance on him.
Securing multimillion first round contract or smoking a joint….Securing multimillion first round contract or smoking a joint…
If your answer is not A, you are too dumb to be on my team.
Well if his answer was A and I’m picking in the teens, I’d see it as an opportunity that comes with some risk, and try to see it with a level head.
I mean B
Gregory is not dropping out of the first round… I seriously doubt he makes it past #15 in the 1st round. He is one of the better, if not the best, pass rushing prospects in the draft. He stated he has made some changes in who he has surrounding him and appears to be making a genuine effort to change his behavior. Trust me, he is going to be picked high in the draft. 😉
I agree, don’t see him falling last the middle off the first. But if he does,
I hope we explore moving up.
Hey Rob I know how hard it is to scout a small-school prospect but Hawks were seen at Pitt State Pro Day I presume to watch CB De’Vante Bausby 6’1 180lbs. His tape shows fluid hip movements and solid ability to track the ball – http://www.hudl.com/athlete/577857/highlights/125846379/v2
Pro Day Results : https://twitter.com/DraftDiamonds/status/581167124997120001
Thoughts?
I’ll take a look.
Some names to keep an eye on. Supposedly Seattle is showing a ton of interest in these 2 guys…
Pitt St. CB De’Vante Busby and OT Vincent Brown.
S. Florida LB Restart Cliett ran a mid 4.4 or more likely a 4.5. Still though. WOW!
I think you mean DeVante Bausby. Vincent Brown transferred to Pitt. State late. Both guys are deep UDFA type sleepers, hardly any information on them.
The more of this developmental type they like, the greater chance of them trading down. Which would leave the draft for very exceptional talents.
We could be looking at a draft that is completely unlike what we are mocking!
Why would they trade down when those players are UDFA? Seahawks should trade up to mid second round. Lets say they trade all their draft picks except comp picks that can’t be traded. They end up with three second round picks and use them on a wide receiver/kick returner, left tackle/guard and center. Then use 4 comp picks in 4-6 rounds for whatever position you want. Last pick all the UDFA people they want. Draft problems solved and you have at least three high quality starters.
This is plausible, especially since PCJS have said several times how much they like some of the practice squad/IR players we already have. And we’ve already added CB depth via free agency.
Well because you aren’t guaranteed to sign UDFAs. They’re free agents that will go wherever they think they’ve got the best shot. If there are multiple teams vying for their services you might not get to sign them, and there’s like an 80k pool each team has to offer signing bonuses to UDFAs and might be higher than the team has or is willing to offer them.
That’s definitely the advantage to grabbing a guy in the 7th that might be as a UDFA.
What I meant was that I could see them trending down, emphasizing the lower rounds because they see less expensive ways to get what they want. This does not mean they might not trade up in some instances, but generally, if what they want is in lower rounds and UDFA, they head in that direction.
I tend to agree with this. Don’t know about trading down, but I think your going to see quite a few ‘small school’ sleeper picks in the mid to late rounds, and an unbelievable UDFA haul.
I just have this feeling that this year’s draft for Seattle is going to be one of the more exciting cone’s we’ve seems from them. 1-2 starters, 5-6 depth players, 2-3 project picks, and 3-4 PS, red-shirts, or ‘ghost roster’ candidates.
It amazes me that a young guy who is going through the interview process to get a job that will result in him becoming a multi millionaire cannot refrain from smoking pot when he knows he is going to be drug tested.
For me he would be off my draft list because if he cannot show good judgement know how will he when he has made is $. Josh Gordon and Justin Blackmon at least passed their Combine drug test. That says it all.
The smoking pot is not the issue. Who cares! It is the lack of discipline and poor decision making. How do you fail 3 drug tests in your draft year then claim you do not have a problem. If you don’t have a problem with Pot then you have far bigger issues.
Sorry for the rant it is just so sad and frustrating to see a young kid like this with so much potential on track to just waste it all away. I hope he finds a good mentor wherever he goes who will take him under their wing because he obviously does not have the right people around him now
My rant was about Randy Gregory’s failed drug test.
I agree with you. Whatever your stance on the legality of pot, it is against league rules. You know they are testing for it. So if you can’t stop yourself even then, why should I think you could stop yourself while you are in the league? Good grief.
Yup, I am all for legalizing it and taking it off the banned substances list – but until that happens you have to be completely addicted or incredibly stupid to do what Gregory did. Substance abuse is a major red flag, look at how its derailing Gordon’s career – and Gordon is arguably the most talented WR in the NFL.
Here is a pretty extensive survey of cornerbacks by Frank Cooney:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/25122253/nfl-draft-defensive-backs-have-talent-and-size-to-go-with-it
Rob, it seems that the conventional definition of “size” does not account for the arm length requirement.
Kevin Johnson: “I’m the best corner/I’m a lockdown corner.”. Amusing.
I’m convinced Seattle will trade one or two picks for picks in 2016. There is very little chance that all 11 picks make the team. Heck, maybe only 4 or 5 will make the team. I would rather have extra 2016 picks, than pick a guy with almost no shot of making the team.
The league is considering expanding roster sizes by two spots from 53 to 55. If that is a successful measure then that should mitigate some concerns about selecting more players than are capable of making the roster.
It’s important to remember Seattle wants competition. Whether you draft seven times or 11 times, draft picks aren’t going to make the roster. You might draft 11 players, keep 10 and cut a veteran. You might draft seven players and cut three of your draft picks. You only trade into 2016 or give away picks if you don’t like the value.
Twenty-five scouts were on hand for Texas Southern pro day, primarily to watch little-known cornerback Tray Walker, who did not disappoint
Walker measured 6-2 3/4, 189 pounds, posted 36.5-inch vertical jump and 10-7 broad jump. His 40 times included a wind-aided 4.44 and 4.51 against the wind. Walker also clocked a 4.05 in the short shuttle and a 3-cone, which dipped under 6.7. Walker has a official visits with Seattle don’t know when
Hey Rob is there a list of official visits for the Seahawks?????
Watched a little bit of his highlights. He is definitely long and likes contact. Definite project for Richard and Pete.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFKxKPmKZ_c