Time is running out — but the clock hasn’t struck midnight yet
On Thursday we discussed a report from Michael Silver discussing Seattle’s approach to the D-line, which still needs to be addressed before the season begins.
Rather than re-post the tweets I’m going to paraphrase what was said:
Jadeveon Clowney… Jadeveon Clowney… ‘appear’ to have moved on… wants too much… Jadeveon Clowney… could sign someone else! … Everson Griffen and Clay Matthews! … could happen soon! … Jadeveon Clowney… $15m offer from the Seahawks… Clowney… Clowney… Clowney wants more money than anyone’s offering…
Of course this is my attempt to add a tinge of humour to the subject but it’s actually a fairly realistic portrayal. A report that the Seahawks were close to signing Griffen or Matthews was sandwiched between two slices of Clowney.
You might argue this is simply Silver addressing a topic that has dominated Seattle’s off-season (at least up until the Jamal Adams trade). Maybe so. Yet let’s have a serious look at this situation.
It seems pretty clear that at the start of free agency, he was their top priority (along with generally improving the pass rush):
I’ve discussed before what I think happened but I’ll quickly recap. I think the Seahawks looked at the options in free agency and determined that Clowney was the most impactful defensive lineman available.
Pete Carroll has long admired ‘field tilters’. He likes to add X-factor players — blue chip, five-star, high draft pick talent. From the trades he’s completed to the reclamation projects he’s taken on. Carroll loves upside. Clowney is arguably the biggest upside player he’s ever acquired — a former elite recruit, a world-class athlete and the former #1 overall pick.
He’s also a potential game-winner. Last season two players were capable of winning a game with their individual talent for the Seahawks. Russell Wilson — as happened numerous times — and Jadeveon Clowney. His impact against San Francisco in the game of the year and in the playoff victory in Philadelphia was devastating. He’s a match-winner on defense.
When Carroll said Clowney was the priority — he meant it. And I believe the Seahawks worked tirelessly at the combine, talking with the rest of the teams, the agents and any other source they use, to come up with a clear plan to re-sign him.
I think they knew his market wasn’t going to be what he expected. So they offered him a generous deal to return, possibly the most attractive deal, but ultimately one below Clowney’s personal expectations.
I also think they believed the connection they’d had with Clowney in 2019 would be a difference maker.
So I think they felt that while the offer was below what the player wanted — after a few days he would assess the situation and possibly come to the conclusion that the best place to be was Seattle.
I don’t think they anticipated Clowney holding out, drawing a line in the sand and refusing to sign anywhere for months on a point of principal. I don’t think anyone anticipated that. Probably not even Clowney’s agent Bus Cook, who has an excellent relationship with the Seahawks.
As I’ve written before — I don’t think you can really blame either party for a deal not happening. Seattle possibly made the best offer to him and to go any further would’ve been bidding against themselves. Equally it’s up to Clowney — who’s already made over $50m in his career — to refuse any offer he doesn’t think is acceptable.
It left Seattle in a quandary. If they moved onto other targets there was no chance of getting Clowney back — their self-confessed priority. So all they could do was wait and hope, while adding cheaper depth players (Benson Mayowa) who wouldn’t prevent them from signing Clowney if he decided to return after all.
Unfortunately time passed and Clowney never wavered. He stuck to his guns. They had to start spending money — on Carlos Hyde and Geno Smith for example. The available cash to spend on Clowney reduced.
However — the door was never shut.
Every time Carroll was asked about the situation he’d always say they were ready to ‘jump right back in’ if the opportunity arose.
It doesn’t do either party any good to be in this situation now. Clowney is without a gig for 2020 and the Seahawks have a massive Clowney-shaped hole on their defensive line.
I think the Seahawks have always hoped that there would be a positive conclusion eventually. They’ve always saved some money. It’s increasingly lowered as time has gone on — but they haven’t signed a defensive tackle, a defensive end or a new receiver yet despite all seemingly being on the shopping list.
They currently have a decent chunk of cap space remaining. They could’ve sign Everson Griffen or Clay Matthews weeks ago. We all know why Clowney hasn’t signed anywhere yet. He believes he is worth a certain dollar amount for his services and no team has matched that amount. That isn’t the case for Griffen or Matthews who have remained available throughout the off-season with seemingly little interest.
Their markets seem to be limited due to age (both well into their 30’s) and in Griffen’s case, some possible concerns about his mental health given what happened in Minnesota.
It was even reported a few months ago that Griffen’s market was being impacted by the Clowney stalemate. It was unclear why — yet the report stated that to be the case. It’s felt for a while that he was always the primary alternative to Clowney in Seattle. Why hasn’t he signed? Because the Seahawks have never really moved on from their self-confessed priority. They’ve always left a light on for him.
It’s possible, as we discussed on Thursday, that they’re nearing the end of this long pursuit. Eventually they will have to move on, as much as they probably don’t want to. They can’t go into the season with Benson Mayowa as the primary defensive end/pass rusher. They just can’t. It will need to be Griffen or Matthews if Clowney, finally, isn’t coming.
Silver’s report felt like a final call. A last chance, offered through the media. Clowney’s response was seemingly to insinuate to Josina Anderson that he felt he had ‘more leverage’ given the number of opt-outs recently — but that’s frankly nonsense. Nobody is ponying up a $17-20m contract at this stage of the year. Especially with a huge unknown regarding the economic future of the NFL. He has almost no leverage now and the only options are to miss the season, retire or take the best offer.
Maybe he realises that soon? If so, there’s still a chance the Seahawks work this out. If they’d truly moved on they would’ve signed Griffen or Matthews by now. There are no restrictions there. Only that they know once that happens, Clowney is definitely not coming back. Griffen and Matthews would presumably happily march into a contending team in the NFC, based on their seemingly weak markets, to play for coach Pete in one final hurrah.
This is basically the crux of the matter — the Seahawks haven’t moved on from Clowney, they’re still exhausting their pursuit of him by waiting this long, and they won’t have moved on until the moment another player is signed.
Silver’s tweets focused more on Clowney with a side salad of who they might sign in return. I suspect they’re having to play this out through the media because direct negotiations could actually be quite fractious. I think this has probably been quite a frustrating, annoying and upsetting situation for Seattle. I think they felt they had a connection to the player as well as a fair offer — and they’re left wondering how it’s come to this. I think his re-signing would’ve set up the entire off-season. I think they’ve felt somewhat in limbo as a consequence and probably like other teams (eg Tennessee) wonder what on earth his end game actually is.
His lack of a return likely also inspired the Jamal Adams trade. The Seahawks defense struggled badly last year. With the greatest respect to Jordyn Brooks (who might not start) — there’s no way they could seriously go into the 2020 season with ambitions of improvement without making a significant addition. That’s probably why the Adams trade became a reality weeks before the season rather than days into free agency. They knew they had to do something. They’ve waited ages for Clowney. They couldn’t subtract him from the 2019 group and improve. Adams was a top talent who happened to be available. They got him — to at least add one impact player.
Getting Clowney after all, at the eleventh hour, could even constitute something of a late rally in what has otherwise been a flop of an off-season.
Sadly they’re going to have to admit defeat soon and make a move. Which will be painful because when they do move on — the chances are he’ll still be out there as a free agent. They’ll always be walking past that shop window, looking at the pair of Clowney heels for sale that they can no longer afford.
Carroll will want someone as impactful as Clowney leading the charge up front — with Bobby Wagner at the second level and Adams at the third. That would be a trio with the potential to lead a rebound year defensively. With greater depth at DE and another addition at defensive tackle — this could be a contending season after all.
They won’t get that same impact with Griffen or Matthews. Both produced complimentary numbers to elite talents last year and it’s unclear whether they’d be as successful as ‘the guy’ — especially in the twilight of their careers. It’d still be better than having Mayowa as ‘the guy’ — but it’s a way off having Clowney.
Let’s put it this way — nobody in Santa Clara wants to see Clowney wearing a blue helmet in 2020.
We’ll see if there’s some light at the end of the tunnel soon. It’s in Seattle’s and Clowney’s best interests to get this done. A structured two-year deal limiting the cap hit this season and using some of the space they have next year could be a compromise. They could even make the second season an option-year if Clowney prefers to enter free agency again quickly.
They’ve waited this long for him but time is running out. He has to hear that message now and he should consider accepting the situation, rejoining the Seahawks and going for a Championship and future riches.
Meanwhile…
Quinton Dunbar has been released from the commissioners exempt list. This is good news because it means he can immediately take part in training camp. That’s vital for a player transitioning to a new defense.
Of course there’s still a very realistic chance he will receive a suspension. We’ll have to wait and see on that. At least for now, he can get to work.
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A quick heads up for the community. BobbyK posted this in the comments section on the last article. If you can help him, please get in touch:
Thanks!
Hi Bobby, in response on your previous post:
Wow, 14 chapters – well done!!
Not sure if I’m worthy of a quote but I can certainly tell you about my favorite player and football hero as a then 12-year old growing up in Washington.
Would be truly honoured, Bobby K !
Please shoot me an email: bobbyk03@hotmail.com
Can you write ‘Kenny Easley’ in the Subject? I get a lot of spam to that address. Thanks!
Bobby – I’ll send you an email too when I get home from work tonight
Great!
I want to include a few stories from The 12th Man (before we were “12’s) and your story being with your brother watching the the Washington-UCLA game is something I’d like to use.
He one holy roller
He got hair down to his knee
Got to be a joker
He just do what he please
I’m glad someone noticed
What are you talking about? I was just describing Clowney. :O
Rob-
Thanks for the post – I very much appreciate the hard work and professionalism and thought-provoking content you always provide..
Question – Currently the Seahawks clearly need JC’s obvious skillset, but also depth at defensive tackle. Are there any realistic scenarios (cuts, contracts restructured, etc.) where they could sign they could sign JC to something close to his demands ($15-16mm/yr?) and also a serviceable tackle – Snacks, Marcel Dareus, Jernigan – whoever? I’m guessing it might involved (at the very least) painful decisions regarding Jacob Hollister, David Moore, etc. If so this would transform this off season from a turd to an apple overnight….
I think the only realistic way is a deal that is at least two-years long with a moderate year-one cap hit and a higher second (or third) year cap hit. That’s the only solution — and might require some extra funds to make it happen. Theoretically they can create funds by working on existing contracts (Wilson/Lockett) or, more preferably, finding savings via cuts. But they don’t have the luxury of hacking away at several players on the roster. And I’ve said a few times I don’t see any way whatsoever that the cut Hollister. Moore is more likely provided they can bring back a Josh Gordon.
The defensive tackle would also need to be relatively cheap. That shouldn’t be a problem normally but the recent cluster of opt-outs may have boosted the market.
We should have an extra $3.5M or so next year with no #1 or #3 drat picks to sign. That would account for most of the rookie/ps/ir guys that we would normally need to set aside.
I could certainly see a situation where Clowney and a DT are added with lower year 1 hits and bigger hits in 2021.
So you’re saying there are no easy answers? Only hard choices?
Give Clowney a 2yr fully guaranteed contract. 10mil for 2020, 30mil for 2021, giving average $20mil/yr.
You can’t pay him $30m in 2021.
The only way to do it now would be something like $8m this year, $17m next year and $17m the following year with maybe an option on the third year — with incentives and guarantees.
I have always thought that 20 was his magic number so I believe they have to get to that in year 2 or 3. Incentives tied to health would be reasonable and protect the team as well.
LOVED the Beatles reference Rob! My all-time band since THAT night on the Ed Sullivan show in Feb. 1964 (yes I am old).
Dayum, you are an oldster.
My dad was in the USAF in the 60s in RAF Alconbury England and got to see them in a small pub in Liverpool. Before they became “big” shall we say.
You ever watch the roof top performance (on you-tube)? There was a great interview with Paul McCartney about that event a few years ago, well worth watching as a Beatles fan. Hard to believe it was 50 years ago.
I saw Let It Be in the theaters when it was released in ’70 so yeah, I’ve seen the rooftop concert. A shame the weather wasn’t better but the band sounded excellent.
On a side note, Peter Jackson was given 150 plus hours of video/film from the sessions for that album/movie including of course the rooftop concert and a whole new version of the movie is due out any time. Think it was scheduled for this summer but COVID has delayed it. I can hardly wait.
I’m very jealous that your Dad got to see them before they went worldwide. Guessing he saw them at The Cavern where they played nearly daily in ’62 and into early ’63.
By that measure he’s only averaging $14mil/yr. And let’s say the 2nd/3rd year’s are both player option years, we’ll there’s no respect in that deal. His valuation is around that $20mil/yr like a top5 DE. He wants that and whether he deserves that is up to debate. But to lock him in today, he wants $20mil/yr.
And if you guarantee the full two years, at least that’s some respect as that’ll be the first guaranteed contract handed out in the NFL.
But this is the point. He isn’t getting $20m. Nobody is giving him that.
You can’t have two players taking up $60m of your cap space in 2021. That would be nuts. It’s impossible.
This is the only way to get it done. If he has a player option then it’s ideal. He can decide whether to take the money or test the market.
Sorry to break the party.
He is not worth a 20m contract. Even 15m is a stretch. A massive one.
I think, Cowherd is right about him. He has turned a highlight player. I get his pressure percentage, but his 7 TFL and 3 sacks are not elite, not even good. You will find insanely good plays of him on game tape, but not that many of them and not consistently. A 20m elite player is making plays, every given Sunday.
Yes, he played through sports hernia. But he played through all sorts of injuries, and isn’t the player drafted #1 anymore. Plus, to apply Rob’s rule on when DEs are getting a distraction… the Texans paid him to play elsewhere.
That said, Clowney for a 8m/1y prove it deal is one thing. At any higher cost, hard pass.
He is also part of the problem instead of the solution. We waited for him all offseason. I’m fed up. We missed a major opportunity drafting Epenesa or Okwara, we missed out on peanuts for Vinny Curry, we were still not able to sign Griffen.
You’re fixing the argument to suit your own view on Clowney though.
He had 7 TFL’s and 3 sacks in 2019. He had 18.5 sacks in the previous two seasons when he wasn’t playing on the worst DL in the NFL. Perhaps if he wasn’t propping up the entire defense last season, his pressure percentage that was comparable to Joey Bosa and Aaron Donald would’ve constituted more statistical production? If one of the most double-teamed players in the league had better opportunities to get stats, perhaps he would’ve had them? Instead, opponents could shift all the focus to him because Ziggy Ansah, Branden Jackson and Shaquem Griffin just aren’t cutting it.
You say he’s worth $8m. So you’re seriously trying to claim that his true value is comparable to the following players who earn around $8m:
Trent Murphy
Emmanuel Ogbah
Dean Lowry
Carl Nassib
Henry Anderson
Meanwhile, several other players are earning more than $8m:
Trey Flowers $18m
Dee Ford — $17m
Carlos Dunlap — $13m
Justin Houston — $12m
Shaq Lawson — $10m
Your handle on what constitutes as value for the position is just off.
You say they missed an opportunity to draft Epenesa or Okwara. No they didn’t. They passed on both players twice, preferring Jordyn Brooks and Darrell Taylor. If they’d wanted Vinny Curry ‘on peanuts’ they could’ve signed him at any time.
I don’t mind people at all not wanting Clowney but please bring valid points to the table.
there are also tons of plays that do not show up on stat sheets. was re-watching the TB game from this year – and noted one play where Winston threw a 30 yd TD pass – but it was called back because the O-lineman was beaten by Clowney and had to hold him.
Plus – stats are relevant – but sometimes the eye test matters. When you watched the Hawks for 16 games last year, Bobby is incredibly steady, but Clowney was the one player on the defense that always caught your attention as causing problems for the other offense.
100% correct.
Which is why Pete spent his pre-combine press conference and interview time saying Clowney was a huge priority.
No, I value him higher. In the 13m range, possibly, from a pure football standpoint. But that’s entirely not the point.
The argument, that he played on a crap DL is a valid one. He wasn’t able to elevate the crew. He lacks leadership. His whole offseason speaks of poor judgement, wanting Donald’s money… for exactly what?
Tbh, by now, he is not even close to Joey Bosa, and especially not Aaron Donald. Those players deliver any given Sunday. Aaron Donald is a generational talent doing everything a lot better than even the second most talented guy.
He is also not a supporting player like Carl Nassib. He is somewhere in between. There is no market for inbetweens. Be a star player, or deliver on a lower salary. That’s the game.
So, his ceiling for a contract is Vic Beasley. 9.5m/1yr. That’s the reality, and you can hammer on his pressure percentage all day, it wouldn’t change the markets perception on him.
And, really I’m not interested in turning the 2021 offseason into another mess.
We need a guy anchoring the DL from the interior. Most of the time in 2019, they approached their adversaries like a bunch of chicken. This is why I think Marcell Dareus would be a good signing. Campbell would’ve been better, but that ship has sailed.
He wasn’t able to elevate his crew? Bloody hell what a comment. It’s hardly Clowney’s fault that, while acting as a one man band on the DL, he couldn’t ‘elevate’ Branden Jackson and the clearly finished Ziggy Ansah. Come on.
His pressure percentage is on a par with Bosa and Donald. He didn’t have their sacks last year but neither were they playing on a wretched DL. He is a high quality player who wins games for his team. Big games too.
Whether you sign him or not this year the 2021 off season will still be a mess scrambling for DL talent.
I disagree with your $8m assessment, but you bring up a really good point: Clowney in no way “fixes” the pass rush. He does not even greatly improve it if you already have Bruce Irvin who had 8.5 sacks last year in thirteen games. At his absolute best and playing on a loaded D-line, Clowney is not a ten sacks per year guy. If the Seahawks want to generate consistent pressure it has to come from several different directions. No, the reason Clowney should be paid something clost to what he wants is that he is spectacular, utterly incredible, game-breaking, one of a kind in run defense. The run defense would have been a train wreck without Clowny and K.J. Wright. So, yes, pay Clowney $15m for his jaw-droppingly awesome run defense and his relatively good pass rush, but people who think that he is needed to “fix” the pass rush are doing nothing but parrotting a media-manufactured narrative. Oh, and a “quarterback pressure” with broken containment and a slot receiver running between the linebackers and DBs is just a first down in progress when the quarterback is not named Mitch Trubisky.
Fun pass rush fact: Bruce Irvin and Benson Mayowa combined had just one fewer sack last year than Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett combined for in 2013. What the pass rush really needs now is another guy like Clinton McDonald picking up five sacks from the inside.
I feel like I have to keep repeating the same points.
“Clowney is not a ten sacks per year guy”
In 2017 and 2018 he combined for 18.5 sacks. So nearly 10 sacks per year. Why didn’t he achieve that in Seattle? Because he faced constant double teams and had practically zero support on arguably the worst DL in the league. Teams keyed in on him. He still had a pressure rate comparable to Joey Bosa and Aaron Donald but that doesn’t suit the argument I guess. It’s perfectly plausible that actually playing on a line with some other players who are not replacement level would get him back into the 10 sack range.
Bruce Irvin and Benson Mayowa combined had just one fewer sack last year than Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett combined for in 2013.
And guess what? Mayowa has had six active seasons in the NFL. In half of those seasons, he finished with ONE sack. In 2014, he finished with four sacks. He has two seasons in his career where he has achieved six and seven sacks acting as a complimentary piece. Currently, he’s Seattle’s best early down rusher. That’s not good enough. Let’s see how he gets on trying to be Clowney with all the focus on him. If you’re going to isolate one season of statistical production as an argument that he and Irvin could produce sacks at the level of Avril and Bennett — let’s also acknowledge that Mayowa is capable of a one-sack season and in Bruce’s last year in Seattle he had 5.5 sacks. So that would be a very different, fairly miserable alternative.
Clowney in no way “fixes” the pass rush
No one player ever ‘fixes’ a pass rush. You need lots of options. You need a rotation and pressure on the edge and the interior. Look at the 2013 season as a good example of this. However, achieving a strong rotation does not start by saying, ‘we don’t need the only good player from last season because now we have… Benson Mayowa’. The whole point should be to build. Have Clowney and then add to him. Support him. Bolster the line across the way. Not keep having good players (Clark, Clowney) and then removing them and hoping players like Rasheem Green and LJ Collier will be good enough in relief.
Yes, you do kep repeating the same points. TWO years he almost, but not quite, tallied ten sacks, and he has been playing for six. Why didn’t he get 9.5 sacks in Seattle? Maybe because he was not playing with J. J. Watt. Well, he is never going to play with J.J. Watt again unless some AFC team pickes him up, and they meet in the Pro Bowl. And, once again, because I keep having to make this point, pressures don’t mean anything unless the secondary is on their stuff and the rest of the D-line is in their lanes. If you want a difference-maker, take the guy who gets home.
And guess what? Mayowa has had six active seasons in the NFL.
So has Clowney, and yet he has only had two effective years as a pass rusher. He does not have the bend of a proper Leo like Frank Clark or Cliff Avril, and the hernia certainly is not going to help with that. Clowney may never even be a nine sack per year guy again, and how much of the defense’s cap room are you inclined to spend on him? How much cap space can be dropped on ~8 sacks?
Currently, he’s Seattle’s best early down rusher. That’s not good enough.
Unless they put Bruce at Leo, which is what they drafted him to be way back when. God knows that he is a better run defender than he was in his rookie year, and now Clem is not in front of him. Besides, if we are going off what guys did in 2018, then Jarren Reed is a better pass rusher than Jadeveon Clowney.
No one player ever ‘fixes’ a pass rush. You need lots of options. You need a rotation and pressure on the edge and the interior.
Precisely. How many positions along the line can be filled with ~$18m? They could fill out the rotation and have an effective pass rush with that. They could re-sign K.J. Wright and Jamal Adams. How much is <9 sacks worth? That is what every GM who has thusfar refused to meet Clowney's figures has been thinking. The NFL is a zero sum game.
You realize a lot of Clowney’s sacks came when Watt was out with injury right?
None of this is a counter to the points I raised.
I think you guys need to go look at tape from last year again. The guy completely destroys plays from the back field! Like him or not, he is a corner stone piece of a DL. As Rob stated, sack #s are situational and scheme based, but the ability to create utter havoc is priceless.
And setting is value at 8m…wow!
I feel like the exchanges at least confirm that Clowney is still in the running. This is probably the 5th-8th time we’ve had tactical leaks by both sides right around the same time.
There was some talking heads on 950 KJR yesterday….. more or less, they said that Clowney is actually looking for more money now, not less… than about 6 weeks ago. He figures he has more leverage now and a team will meet his price sooner or later. The number that gets thrown around is the magic 15M / year. This is roughly the same number that Seattle supposedly offered him about 4-5 months ago.
I still believe Clowney got some really bad advise or refused to listen to his agents advise…. because I can’t see anyone having cap space to give him a deal approaching that number…. except a couple bottom feeders. Now he will not get a long term deal and some big guaranteed dollars until after the 2020 season….. and with a potential cap contraction…. He will never will make that loss up.
The Seahawks should be blamed for one thing, they waited too long to start making moves…. missing some exceptional valued trade options to upgrade the DL (or defense). DT Campbell comes to mind.
I think this is just a reaction to the two reporters on Twitter — Michael Silver mentioned $15m as Seattle’s previous offer for a 2020 salary and Josina Anderson mentioned him believing he has greater leverage than before.
This is definitely not true. Bus Cook is not advising Clowney to hold out. This has pretty much been spelt out by John Schneider. Clowney has a monetary value for his services in his head and isn’t budging. This is nothing to do with his agent — one of the best and most respected agents in the league.
He fired Bus Cook back in 2019, did he resign with him?
I haven’t been able to find the definitive answer via google (sadly)
I’m not in the twitter verse, so only get to hear reactions on the radio while at work.
When you start looking forward to Mariners updates over the non-stop Clowney talk on local sports-radio…. yikes
Yes, he re-hired Bus Cook shortly after.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen someone misplay their free agency worse than Clowney. Obviously he sees a specific value that he believes he’s worth and isn’t willing to budge from it. He may have made 50 mil, but if he turned down a 3 yr 45 mil (I’m just guessing there), he missed the opportunity to almost double his career earnings.
I can’t see any way he makes more by sitting out the year. It appears like he’s healthy now, so it’s not like he’s going to have that in his favour. Plus he’s a year older and entering a tighter market with the lower cap. Agents will be using him as an example for years for what not to do.
As I said in the article though, I don’t blame Clowney. If you see lesser players getting X amount, if you’ve got $50m in the bank and you want to take control of the situation… you can do what he’s done. Has he cost himself money? Sure. He might not care. He has enough to set his family up for generations. He’s played through sports hernia’s. He might be content to sail off into the sunset if he doesn’t get what he believes he is worth.
I respect that. As long as his end game is being prepared to not play and possibly retire. If his end game is a full intention to play in 2020… then yes he’s made a dogs dinner of the situation.
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree, for I do blame Clowney. First I blame* him for becoming addicted (in a manner of speaking) to being considered truly elite, which he is not. But I also blame* him for making money the first and foremost metric, assuming he’s doing that.
*Caveat: he’s entirely free to do whatever he wants obviously
At what point does one stop pursuing the dollar sign metric of what kind of player one is? At what point stop measuring oneself by a contract number? After a certain amount — somewhere between 12-18 million as I see (anyone can disagree) — it’s about who one is as a player, who one has gone to war with, what one has done on the field as part of a winning team/unit.
Yes, I’d take less to be coached by a good coach, as part of a successful and well run competitive franchise, playing with the likes of RW and Wagner etc. Sure you can auction yourself off to the highest bidder and feel dissed when you don’t get 20 million per annum but is that how you want to be remembered? Someone happy to play for the Jets or whoever has a few more dollars and suck up execs that fly out to see you and kiss your butt? Does he wish his career summation to read: “he was the highest paid DE in professional football for 3 or 4 years” (until Bosa or whomever surpasses him)?
I’d respect him more if he said: “I was born poor, my career is a short one, I wish above all to max my income so my immediate family never needs to work again.”
YMMV
God forbid a player looks at what he thinks is fair market value and decides he will only take that, as opposed to being dictated to by teams, with $50m in the bank.
I’d respect your opinion more if you stopped judging him and accusing him of being ‘addicted’ to money.
Every single one of us has probably passed on a job because it didn’t pay enough, and we don’t take the beating that football players take on a regular basis. He is free to look for the job he wants at the compensation he wants, and has the additional leverage (assumption that he saved his money) of being able to pick and choose like most of us can’t. Good for him. He’s earned it.
And he doesn’t owe us any sort of explanation. It’s his life and he doesn’t have to let us in if he doesn’t want to. He’s always struck me as a pretty private person.
Russell Okung botched his free agency pretty well a few years back.
A lot of the players that negotiated their own contracts ended up doing great!
Very true. But not Okung.
I question why you think Okung negotiated a bad contract for himself. In the first year of his contract, 2016, he had low cash flow of only $8m, placing him at 13th in the league among LTs in cash payout that season. from 2017-19, his cash flow was top 5 every season. If you just take the $12m AAV per season he’s had since negotiating his own contarct, that $12m cash paid per year would place him solidly as the 6th highest paid LT each season. He’s a good LT, but I’m not sure anyone would argue he’s a top 5 tackle…
Even more convincing of his not unreasonable contract, of active LTs, Okung is 3rd on the career earnings list, only 400K behind Trent Williams
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/earnings/2019/left-tackle/
By the end of the 2020 season, Okung will be second in career earnings among active LTs as he will just pass Williams.
Throw in the fact that he hasn’t had to pay an agent 3% on half of his career earnings, and he’s already ahead of Trent Williams. With Jason Peters entering the 19th year of his career and only ahead of Okung by $20m, it’s likely that Okung will finish his career with the highest career earnings ever for a LT.
Do you think Okung is the best LT of his generation? I don’t. Did he fail critically in his contract negotiations? I sure don’t think so. He might have been able to eke out a few more dollars, but do you sincerely think he did a terrible job with his own negotiations?
clowney has to feel like his best chances to win are still with the hawks (especially considering the last few weeks). that — let’s hope — should still be playing into his decision making process…
clowney, mebane and gordon are the last dominoes that need to fall in order to secure one of the most epic hawks off-seasons of all-time.
a sad farewell to hollister and moore (with willson in reserve), thank you for your service.
go hawks!
With Parkinson out indefinitely, Dissly’s injury history and Olsen’s age — Hollister won’t be going anywhere.
agree
I think this is a great point, and one that I am hoping the average fan can grasp.
Adding a major piece like Clowney has an impact on every other player on the DL.
Guys like Mayowa, Irvin and Ford don’t have to play while constantly being the center of attention.
Young guys like Green, Collier, and Taylor (when he recovers) can just develop, and with their limited snaps can afford to pin their ears back and go for it since they’re not going to be expected to play major snaps vs double teams.
It’s not so much about sacks, it’s workload, assignments and attention when you look at the whole picture. And Clowney balances and improves everyone on the DL.
The DL without a Clowney is like getting a salad, potatoes and some asparagus at a fancy restaurant but no steak. Those 3 things are made SO MUCH better with a steak in the middle of the plate.
Great. Now I’m hungry.
Spot on.
Toe Jam Football.
It just goes to show you that guys like Jefferson weren’t good enough to take advantage of Clowney’s disruption. All those double teams and 2 guys with 4 sacks?
I for one wasn’t sad to see Jefferson go. Hopefully they can get Clowney in the building.
IF we get Clowney in the building, I think that the guys we brought in Irvin and Mayowa will shine. As you stated, I liked Jefferson, but I’ll take a Irvin or Mayowa on the edge vs him anytime.
Add in a big 3Tech vet, and I agree with Rob that we now have a contending DL.
add clowney and a Dt and this has a legitimate argument to be the best defense in the NFL
I wouldn’t go that far. Better defense than 2019, absolutely. Best in the league?? No chance.
One thing that is encouraging, is that the teams have been doing business together for two weeks now, and he is still out there. I had kind of been under the assumption that once teams were allowed to get him in their building and check him out that he would sign shortly with a team like Tennessee. Clearly, that is not the case. He may be waiting out the market, but it’s not like teams are grinding their teeth to get him.
Great thoughts Rob and it makes me think we’ll all be getting Reed 91 jerseys in fits of ironic celebration. Do I dare say you’re starting to get your old optimism back? Good to see it, and I hope you are doing well out there 🙂
I’ve been waiting for this article for a long while again. Prophet Rob has a great track record. I know everything gets discussed around here but in the past few years Rob has brought up Jimmy Graham, Sheldon Richardson and Clowney last year. And they all became Hawks. I think I’m missing some too. Let’s speak this into existence once again. Make a big run, win a championship, everyone gets paid.
Vikings LB Cameron Smith discovers heart condition after positive COVID-19 test
Wow, this is some story. Blessing in disguise it seems. He will miss 2020 now due to surgery.
My girlfriend dislike sports and I still found it necessary to share that story with her. Crazy how life works sometimes. Thankfully, it isn’t (or at least shouldn’t be) career threatening and although he will miss the 2020 season, he should be okay to return in 2021.
Say we do sign Clowney for less than he feels he’s worth. Do you think he could be a problem in the clubhouse? Give me Griffen and Darreus on one year deals. Bring back Josh Gordon. It’s probably easier to be a recovering addict when all the bars are closed. Develop the rookies. I’m good whith our seven tight ends doing what the Patriots and Ravens do.
I really doubt Clowney is a problem. He spoke about liking Seattle and PC and JS were extremely enthusiastic about wanting him back.
Yeah, but he might have a problem with Adams’ big mouth. Hell, Percy Harvin knocked out Golden Tate and threw him in a laundry bin before the Super Bowl. (This was verified by Cliff Avril on KJR) I’m sure neither of those guys had a problem with Pete or John.
With all due respect, it sounds like you’re inventing potential problems to argue you don’t want Clowney back.
Fair enough. But Clowney has been driving all of us nuts all summer. Am I projecting or is he just being a selfish ass?
Selfish is not a word that fits the description of Clowney whatsoever.
How about his agent? You don’t think he’s Brett Farving (Favreing?) us?
No. I’ve been through this a million times.
Bus Cook is his agent, one with a fantastic relationship with the Seahawks and he is having NO impact on any of this decision by Clowney.
Doesn’t look fantastic right now.
The agent has absolutely ZERO impact on Clowney’s holdout. This is 100% on the player, not the agent. That’s a fact.
Even John Schneider was praising ‘Uncle Bus’ (his name for him) after the draft.
If people want to imagine this is an agent thing, fine. But you’ll be massively wrong.
I don’t think he will be a problem at all.
The guy played through a sports hernia. To me he seems like the kind of person where when it’s time to go to work… you go to work.
I think Rob’s idea of using Wilson’s contract to free up some cap space to offer Clowney a 2-year deal with a possible option for next year is about as good as it is going to get for Clowney this year. Hopefully, he sees it the same. It was late August when he signed last year so he might play it out for another couple weeks but if he wants to play this year, I still think Seattle is the front-runner.
Great point with the Josina tweet. The fact that it came so close to the leak from Silver was awfully suspicious. The whole Jadeveon situation has been disappointing to say the least. If we sign another guy and move on, I could see him signing with another team as his leverage would have lessened.. It does seem like the Hawks are put more in a bind from this. Hopefully he will decide that Seattle is worth it. If we have are able to bring him in we are serious serious contenders for SB this year.
surely JC is on the weaker side of the bargaining table.
Made it clear throughout that the amount of $ is key to signing and no one has taken it on, I reckon Seattle saw this coming and have sat back and waited. It’s now time to play or sit out.
Sitting out can’t work for JC, he’ll be able to possibly regain full fitness, but the gamble is too big (anything can happen in a year off, too much partying. Motivation switch off. Poor training).
No doubt the talent that’s why Seattle has waited but no one player is bigger than the team and the move on date is up.
Seattle didn’t see this coming at all. Nobody can argue this has been part of a long-standing plan. As noted in the article, I think it caught them seriously off guard and has had a major impact on their off-season.
He’s only on the weaker side of the bargaining table if he is determined to play in 2020. If he’s willing to skip the season or even retire, he has all the power. Either pay him or he sits out.
You say sitting out can’t work for him but it can work out if he’s willing to not play. He’s a very wealthy man.
The move on date might be up for some fans but it’s not for the Seahawks. They’ve waited this far, always kept some money on the side. Even now they’re still waiting. The time to move on will come up soon but it won’t be here until you see a tweet saying they’ve signed Griffen or Matthews.
JC’s problem is that the math doesn’t add up. If he sits out 2020 he has to get an incredible multi-year offer in 2021 to make it basically even. Which as he gets older and league’s CAP situation up in the air getting that large offer becomes less likely.
It does.
But he might opt to retire if he doesn’t get the kind of offer he wants.
He could but I doubt he would. He’s still young and fairly healthy. Tough to walk away from the adrenaline of the game. Few can do what Barry Sanders did.
Any word on who they might to sign as their DT depth?
Well it depends… he’s earned $50m and I suppose the adrenaline rush can ware off if you think you’re being short changed. I have no idea if he’d be willing to do that but if he was going to settle for the best offer out there he might’ve done it by now.
Just in case people need a reminder of what this man did for the Seahawks last year.
https://youtu.be/9hPsqtQPe5I
Just incredible.
A handy reminder of what he’s capable of.
As Chris Simms says… the best at F-ing the play up. And a knack for turnovers and occasionally touchdowns.
The play against the Falcons there is what gets me. Gets doubled, doesn’t give up, fights through with quick bursts and records the strip sack. Unreal.
The TFLs and backside pursuit are just crazy! Imagine that with Jamal and Potentially brookes on field too…..
Clowney, Reed, another addition at defensive tackle, Bruce Irvin for rushing situations and hopefully the emergence of Darrell Taylor with Mayowa chipping in — and the DL situation won’t be anywhere near as miserable as it could be.
And suddenly the Seahawks can play complimentary football again.
Now with the back 4, or 5 on passing downs, seemingly set, that front four could be very formidable. Hopefully, they do get it done.
Mouth-watering… But what more can the Seahawks really do to make it happen? Seems like the ball is entirely in Clowney’s court now.
It is. All they can do is hope that he has a change of heart. Time’s running out though.
Thanks again for great material Rob. Do you think there’s any more negotiating to be done at this point? It’s hard for me to imagine another team ponying up the money he apparently wants even if there are injuries or opt outs so how much of this is delusion vs not wanting to participate in camp? If he’s as competitive and wants to win as much as he portrays it doesn’t make sense to sit out even if he has made $50m IMO.
At any rate I think a snowball has a better chance in hell than the NFL completing a season this year…
I don’t think there’s much Seattle can do. It’s really a case of trying to get Clowney to realise what his best situation is for 2020 and maybe 2021. But I suspect if you try and spell that out to him personally it will only be a turn off. So they have to subtly play this out through the media and just keep giving little nudges on the off chance that he decides to end the stalemate.
I suspect it’s incredibly frustrating for the Seahawks. But they’ve also known for a while what Clowney’s stance is and they have chosen not to move on. So they’re still hoping things change.
Here is the 2020 Preview article from PFF. Basically stating everything we already know. Still a good read. They also have the rest of the NFCW previews as well.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2020-team-preview-series-seattle-seahawks
this little tidbit from the article stuck out – –
“Collier had just one hurry from 86 pass-rushing snaps in an impressive lack of production.”
oof . . .
SIGH
I think we need to see another year out of Collier. His numbers were not pretty, but he also suffered an early ankle injury – high ankle sprain I think – and those can linger for quite a while and would really affect a defensive lineman. REALLY hoping it was the ankle.
With Adams and Dunbar in the mix, it has to appeal to Clowney some that the Seahawks have an absolutely stacked secondary which should give him longer to disrupt plays. With Green, Irvin, Mayowa, Taylor, even Robinson there should be quicker clean up sacks, when he gets pressure. I really can’t understand why Clowney has decided to take such a hard stance, He doesn’t want to play for a bad team, and he wants paid like a bad team would be desperate enough to pay. It seems to be a pretty perfect place for Clowney, where else can you have so much defense talent behind the defense line as support, and a offense that gives you a chance in any game. There’s a lot of things to be excited if this defense can jell and Clowney would be huge in making that happen. Of course Reed returning to form, Green taking that next step as a player as he’s still younger than a lot of rookies. Clowney back in that mix, and this could be a seriously scary defense up there with the Ravens, and Patriots.
Clowney believes he should be paid like a top DE which isn’t unfair. The market isn’t there but he believes he has a value and he’s not signing a contract he thinks represents bad value. Which is his prerogative. But eventually he will need to decide to accept the situation or embrace sitting out the season or retiring. He may already be embracing that. If so, I don’t see this situation changing. If he wants to play in 2020, it might.
His whole strategy, starting last year, is outside the norm we are all used to expecting from a star player, and based on his schedule and personal valuation rather than on the league’s or a team’s. Which he has every right to have.
He refused to sign the tag last year, and forced his hand to get traded and agreed to the trade with a no franchise tag designation.
The more I ponder that, the more I see that he craved the freedom to make his own decisions and proceed as he sees fit. And he wasn’t afraid of holding to his principles right up until the season started. And that’s a big reason why we are just weeks away from the first game of the year and he’s still unsigned.
On the flipside, when he’s in, he’s in. He showed up and made a big impression in the Bengals game with very little actual training camp, and appeared to be in football shape from his own personal workouts. And he played through injuries and pain. So he’s a gamer. If he signs, there’s not going to be much question about his game readiness or contribution in the early weeks of the year. He’ll answer the bell.
I can definitely see where the pattern of his actions leads to the conclusion that he adamantly wants to be the one determining his fate. Cantsay that I blame him if that’s the case.
Interestingly though, I think the longer he waits the less control he actually has. With no preseason games and other COVID-related restrictions, teams that play a different scheme than Seattle will have a harder time integrating him and there are few teams with the necessary cap space to sign him anyway.
Seattle really IS his best option … especially since he could basically sign a few days before the first game, take his physical, go through the COVID protocol, and hit the field running Week 1.
As far as playing for a winner, and giving himself a chance at a ring I just don’t see a better situation out there for him. He has every right to sit for the year, but this might be his best chance at a ring. . With as much as he’s made in his career, it would only make sense to me to sacrifice a few dollars to have that, and given his hard to statistically provable greatness a huge boon to the chance to be a HOF player. I can’t blame him, if his motivation is just to make money, it is just a job after all and he’s good at his job, so can’t blame him for wanting to be paid like it. You just can’t have it both ways, you either are primarily driven bye legacy, or bye money and if it’s money, probably should drop all the pillow talk about wanting to play for a championship team 😂.
It’s possible to both consider your legacy while also seeking proper compensation for your talents.
Interesting video about Brooks: https://youtu.be/vk_-WcDc8Kc
Looks like Mike Daniels is visiting CIN and if he passes physical will likely sign there according to Schefter. Not many 3 Techs left on market.
To me it’s hard to argue Clowney doesn’t atleast deserve a contract similar to Fowler. So I can atleast to a certain point; understand Clowney’s frustration, and hesitancy to sign a contract. I just hope Seattle can find a way to get it done.
Yes, I really liked that one by Samuel Gold. I also like what Dave Wyman said about Brooks recently after he finally met him in person. He said he has an evil stare like Mike Singletary.
Another little promo
https://twitter.com/PlexAthlete/status/1292500326000611338
I have long thought that a 3-year, $52M contract would get Clowney back in the fold. I’m not an expert on structure but think that something like the following would allow both Clowney and the team to feel like they got a win:
2020: $2M base, $18M signing bonus; total cash to Clowney is $20M but the cap hit is only $8M.
2021: $2M base, $12M roster bonus; total cash to Clowney is $14M and the cap hit is $20M with the prorated signing bonus factored in. Dead money would be $12M if Clowney were released or traded.
2022: $2M base, $16M roster bonus; total cash to Clowney is $18M and the cap hit is $24M with the prorated signing bonus. Dead money would be $6M if Clowney were released or traded.
There is an obvious “out” for Seattle after 2021 given that they would “save” $18M by moving on from Clowney at that point ($6M in dead money vs $24M cap hit if he’s still on the team).
There’s also some flexibility in 2021 since the roster bonus could be converted to a signing bonus and half of it could slide to the 2022 season if the team needed cap space in 2021. That would almost certainly mean moving on from Clowney before the 2022 season as he’d have a cap hit of $22M in that scenario. But Seattle could also offer him an extension to lessen the hit. Either way, the roster bonus gives the team some flexibility.
Assuming Clowney was on the team for all 3 years, he’d average $17.33M a season. If, for whatever reason, he’s not on the team in Year 3, it ends up averaging $17M (2 years, $34M total). Both numbers are within the range Clowney reportedly lowered his asking price to ($17M – $18M) while being both more than Seattle has reportedly offered ($15M) and less than Clowney reportedly wanted at the start of free agency ($20M+).
With ~$13M to $17M in cap space, depending on who is doing the calculations, this deal would still, theoretically, leave room for Seattle to sign a defensive end who can slide inside to defensive tackle and probably would welcome a chance to play for a championship with his old college coach (i.e. Everson Griffen). And it would also leave $$ to sign a wide receiver who wants to return to Seattle when the league lifts his indefinite suspension (i.e. Josh Gordon).
Super nice article. Was this intended for Clowney’s agent? Since things are playing out in the press…
We’d love to have him back, certainly, but not like this. Get this done, and nicely. CHEERS!
No it was not intended for his agent. Bus Cook is not the problem here. His agent is not influencing any of Clowney’s decision making in terms of holding out for a set amount.
Is this the end for Ursua? I had high hopes for him. But he barely made the field last year, and this was to be his break-out year. But now it looks like he’s going to miss most of camp. Does that put him too far behind? Is he done?
Everyone who is placed on the COVID list is put there “indefinitely”. Some will be there for a while, some for only a few days. There’s no telling, unless the player offers the details, whether they are on the list because they tested positive or were just exposed to someone who tested positive (i.e. a family member, team member, personal assistant, etc.). Players who get a false positive also go on the list (Exhibit A: Matthew Safford).
Hopefully Ursua’s stay on the list is a short one and he’s not actually sick.
No he is not ‘done’
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29629669/power-5-talking-no-fall-football
Rob. I have a number of questions concerning Bryan Mone. 1) Do you remember your scouting report on Mone. 2) Ken Norton told Dave Wyman that he likes Bryan Mone a lot. Do you think it is legitimate. Or is Norton just trying to build confidence in the player. 3) According to Seahawks.com Mone hits the scale at 366 pounds . Other sources have Mone tipping the scale at 344 pounds. Which number do you think Mone is closer to? Either way Mone is as big man. You would think that weighing in those numbers would make him to move. 4) How much of a factor is Mone going to have in 2020. Anyway the Hawks could still use another big boy(DT)..
Didn’t scout Mone. I’m not optimistic about him. He has it on to make the roster, because I assume they will sign someone else.
Bryan Mone is one of those guys that really needs to be in a full time professional strength and conditioning program. He didn’t get drafted because he was the Stay Puft marshmallow man. That’s why he went undrafted.
Remember, Buddy Ryan once called William “The Refrigerator” Perry a wasted draft pick.
Thanks for this article Rob, this is such a confusing situation as JC isn’t doing any talking. Is he really prepared to sit out the season, or does he want to play? Who knows? Does his agent even know what he wants? If so, presumably the Hawks would have a decent idea as well.
After all this time has gone by, he must have a pretty good idea he’s not getting that $20m/yr contract, and probably not even $17m/yr. It’s hard to imagine any teams suddenly jumping up their offers into that range at this late stage.
I also wonder if there’s any real risk of the Hawks waiting him out so long. The risk being that they lose out on Griffen, or even Matthews? Doesn’t seem like any teams are overly anxious to sign either player, but would hate to see them sign on the cheap before PC/JS get some clarification on the Clowney situation.
Seems like its time to get something done, training camp is rolling right along!
https://twitter.com/NHLonNBCSports/status/1292558697399541762
The convergence of memes and dad-jokes is complete
Ha!
The NHL has done such a good job and I have been thoroughly entertained by the product. The round of 16 is going to be awesome. Props to the NHL and NBA for providing the blueprint on making sports work; use MLB as an example of what not to do.
Yeah NBA has been awesome too. And man, that Dad meme was groaningly funny.
Go Canucks
Just a random thought I had with D Taylor starting the year on the NFI list.
Seattle has now spent high picks on DL in 3 of the past 4 drafts: McDowell, Collier, Taylor. From those 3, they have so far gotten about 2 days of pre-season work from all 3. Scouting, attitude, draft position etc aside, that is some abysmal luck.
BIG10 just canceled fall sports. PAC 12 will be right behind. Sucks, but understandable.
Hats off to the NBA BTW. They’ve knocked this outta the park. The games have been good & competitive, doesn’t feel a whole lot different, their young stars are stepping up. You’d need an island for the NFL to do a bubble, but I wish they somehow could.
That report is being walked back now, but it does appear increasingly likely that will happen. Next 2 years of drafting will be more challenging. Doubt it will affect Top 25 talent much, but makes 26-75 more of a crap shoot than it already is.
NBA is crushing it. Was just telling my wife yesterday that I believe an NBA game is the best fan experience. Personally I care more for football, but tough to beat mostly non-stop action for 2 hours, close to the players, classier crowd. Would much rather take my young kids to NBA game than any other pro sport.
It seems like certain teams will play some kind of independent tournament or schedule and others won’t. A lot of teams will want to play. There probably will be college football and it might be interesting to see how it plays out in the end.
2021 draft will be complete mess. Trade compensation for Adams definitely looks better it there is no college football at all. What do.you think, how many underclassmen will.choose to enter draft?
I’m betting the Adams trade had something to do with that.
Maybe someone else mentioned it and I missed it, but it’s official. Reed is #90 again on the team website. Collier is #91 and Mayowa is #95. That’s 10.5 sacks right there with Reed back in #90.
Jax’s YN has just fired his agent, Not sure if that means anything these days but he hasn’t reported to camp and is making noises of siting out the season ala L Bell.
Some interesting facts from official site roster…
LJ Collier is 291lbs…I think he was around 280 coming out of TCU…290 is more 3T weight…
Reed is 306lbs…I think he was 315-320 last year (am i right?)
Blair is listed as FS(still 196lbs) and Diggs as SS…
I never pay any attention to any of this.
Players get listed and changed all the time at different positions. Who knows who even puts these things together?
As for the weight — it’s possible Collier has just come in 10lbs heavier and will slim down during camp. We just don’t know.
Example:
Brown was not only one of the heaviest but one of the tallest NFL players of all time. The 6-foot-10 behemoth offensive tackle was listed at 388 pounds but actually weighed in at 403 pounds when the St. Louis/Los Angeles Rams signed him out of Ole Miss in 2013. “Actually, we weighed him in at 403,” Rams coach Jeff Fisher said.
So, needles to say, the team sites are not entirely accurate.
Well hope they sign E.Griffen, vet DT (Mebane/Darriel) and Clowney (Hope he has change of heart)
And how would they create at least like 15-18m CAP (but more likely around 24m)?
Roster churn…let’s see who they bring in.
Rob just wanted to mention your continuous coverage of Clowney has been spot on. Appreciate the Beatles reference too – seems not that long ago I was being a tourist at Abbey Road, and seeing the Hawks at Wembley. May we return to better times.
Thank you 👍🏻
My 53 man roster prediction
QB- Wilson, Smith
RB- Carson, Hyde, Dallas
WR- Lockett, Metcalf, Moore, Dorsett, Ursua
TE- Olsen, Dissly, Hollister, Willson
LOT- Brown, Ogbuehi
LOG- Iupati, Haynes
OC- Finney, Pocic
ROG- Lewis, Simmons
ROT- Shell, Wheeler
5T- Green, Collier, Jackson
3T- Reed, Christmas
1T- Ford, Mone
LEO- Irvin, Mayowa, Taylor
SAM- Wright, Griffin
MIKE- Wagner, Barton
WILL- Brooks, Burr-Kirven
CB- Dunbar, Griffin, Flowers, Thorpe, Neal
FS- Diggs, Amadi
SS- Adams, Blair, Hill
K- Myers
P- Dickson
LS- Ott
PUP- Penny, Parkinson
IR- Reed
PS- Gordon, Bellore, Homer, Jones, Champion, Fuller, Mabry, Sullivan, Robinson, Mencer, Miller, Lattimore, Webb, Swain, Stephens, Stanley
If Penny returns from PUP, Dallas will be sent to PS and Homer will be released from PS. If Parkinson returns from PUP, Willson will go to PS ( allowed two veterans on PS via CBA) and Mabry will be released from PS. If Josh Gordon is signed, depending on contract numbers, Dorsett or Moore will be released. If a 3T or 1T is signed, Mone or Christmas will go to PS and either Lattimore or Webb will be released. If Clowney or Griffin is signed, Jackson will be released.
Pretty solid list of candidates. I believe they well keep Bellore on the 53 as well as Homer, with Dallas going to the PS if they don’t keep 4 RBs + Bellore.
I believe they are allowed to have more vets on the PS than 2. For some reason 6 is stuck in my head for a PS of 16 players. Luke is a good candidate for the PS since I don’t think other teams will come after him on waivers.
Well technically, its a 55 man roster with the CBA stating that a team can call two PS players to active roster on gameday as long as they go back to PS afterwards and i think PC will have Bellore on PS for that purpose so he can have the extra roster spot for what im predicting is D-Line, but yes i could see him using that spot for another RB.
Nick Bellore isn’t practise squad eligible.
The Seahawks, like all good teams, have spots on their roster for core special teamer’s. Just like Bellore.
If he’s not on the roster this year it’ll be because someone else stepped up and showed they warrant being a core, top-notch special teamer. Otherwise, he will be on the roster.
According to the CBA you can have two veterans on PS, this year with COVID they are allowing 6 veterans to be on PS.
Hey J, thanks for checking on that. I still think Bellore is a core special teamer as is Homer. Both of them had a majority of ST snaps last year and why I think they are better suited for the 53-man roster than others.
Bellore, Homer, BBK.
I think they are the three with the best chance to make it for their special teams value.
Thanks for bringing up BBK. I think he survives because of his “extra curricular” activities. I get tired of seeing people take BBK off the 53-man roster because of this. The dude is a 2nd year player. He has a lot to prove and I believe he will do it.
Most people who write out 53 man roster projections ignore special teams.
Ah right, my mistake.
Still, I think Bellore will need to be beaten to a job. I doubt they let a core special teamer run the risk of getting on someone else’s roster unless someone takes his job away.
Scratch Mike Daniels off the list. Not the first choice but one less choice now nonetheless.
I suspect they won’t agree terms with a DT until the EDGE situation is sorted. If Clowney had a change of heart they need the money available.
But the two cuts yesterday suggest they’re preparing to make a call there.
If I were in PC/JS shoes I wouldn’t sign anyone above the minimum until Clowney makes a decision. The talent disparity between him and Griffen/Matthews is larger than the one between Griffen/Matthews and a final cutdown pickup. Clowney can be a game changer. They’ve stuck it out this long, might as well see it through to the end.
Schefter just tweeted Pac12 has cancelled football.
Yes, BIG10 and PAC 12 cancelled fall football and will try to play at spring. Garofolo said that for now NFL doesn’t plan to postpone draft.
That’s just dumb of the NFL to make that statement in my opinion. The majority of college football won’t be played until spring at the earliest. Move the draft to June if you have to.
Well most of the top players in the draft aren’t going to play spring football are they? They’re going to turn pro. In fact anyone considering it will. There’s too much at stake to play spring football, then have a pre draft process, then play football again weeks later. Nobody can do that.
Very good points, Rob. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Hopefully until the spring, like the B1G. 2 down, 3 to go…Will be really interesting if the SEC decides to do the same thing. If they do, I think they all will. Bummer, going to miss college football this fall.
They won’t even put CDC recommendations in place in the South so imo there’s zero chance they postpone football.
My hope for the final 53 man roster Wk 1
(25) OFFENSE
QB- Wilson, Smith
RB- Carson, Hyde, Homer, Dallas
WR- Lockett, Metcalf, Gordon, Dorsett, Ursua, Sullivan
TE- Olsen, Dissly, Hollister*, Willson
LOT- Brown, Ogbuehi
LOG- Iupati, Haynes
OC- Finney, Pocic
ROG- Lewis, Jones
ROT- Shell, Ogbuehi
(25) DEFENSE
5T- Collier, Green
3T- Reed, Collier
1T- Ford, Harrison
LEO- Clowney**, Irvin, Mayowa, Taylor, Robinson
SAM- Wright, Brooks
MIKE- Wagner, Barton
WILL- Brooks, Griffin, Burr-Kirven
CB- Dunbar, Griffin, Flowers, Thorpe
NB-Amadi, Blair
FS- Diggs, Blair
SS- Adams, Hill
K- Myers
P- Dickson
LS- Ott
PUP- Penny, Parkinson
IR- Reed
*Hollister cut and resigned @ lower cost.
** Clowney signs 2yr contract with an option on the 2nd yr, facilitated with cuts of Moore, Hollister, Bellore & Russell restructure. Griffen would be his replacement if a deal can’t be reached.
Pretty good list there. The only names I might challenge is if Bellore might make the team. They love him in special teams. That third tight end spot is going to be very interesting. Will Parkinson go to the PUP? If so does Hollister make it? If so what will his pay be.
I did take in consideration of the ST contributions that Bellore would make for that unit. STs was definitely a concerted emphasis in the 2019 draft that landed (4) key ST players, Barton, BBK, Homer & Amadi. Those players stepped up and took on major roles from those prior to them, averaging over 300 snap counts in STs for the year.
This year’s group should enhance that youth movement with additional core players that could supplant the duties of Bellore, who’s going into his 2nd full season with the squad. The heir apparent that could take the role played by Bellore is Brooks. Jordyn would be a faster more instinctive player, that will instill a little fire of intensity to that the prior rookie class of ST players.
Not only Jordyn Brooks, but Taylor, Dallas, Robinson could also be key contributors on STs. Not to mention Parkinson and Sullivan (who may stick on the 53 for fear of losing the investment in him), these willwillwillcould also have roles on STs.
STs is designed for younger players fearlessly throwing their bodies around. Those with special skills as with NE’s special edge rusher to block punts and FGs, are the ones that have longevity on STs. Bellore’s skills are replaceable. This may be the year that they move on from Bellore, since they have other core players to fill his role. It would be about a year ahead of the time when they moved on from Heath Farwell, a ST captain, when they brought in a younger player to fill that role.
If an additional 1mil will help get Clowney back on the squad, those are the the moves you have to make, since there is a viable replacement.
Everyone spent last off-season writing off Bellore’s special teams value. I guess we’re going to watch the sequel this year.
Special teams is not designed for younger players. The best special teamers are often hardened veterans. Look at New England’s long track record with retaining key special teams players. The 2013 Seahawks had Heath Farwell, Chris Maragos and Michael Robinson. They mainly moved on from Farwell because they had to make every single saved dollar they could because they had to pay so many players.
It’s a common error that people just assume young players will take on the core special teamer roles.
I remember when Maragos got a $4m contract with Philly and they were thrilled to get him. He was core player on those great Seahawks teams.
Here is a link to some televised practice sessions that will start on Wednesday.
https://www.seahawks.com/news/seahawks-training-camp-live-schedule-announced
Enjoy.
Couple things:
1.Read an article saying the XFL should rush in a create a bubble, schedule a season with college players who can’t or won’t play and be viable for a season or two.
2. The list of 2021 free agents we may need to shore up LT and Dl without draft picks:
Ronnie Stanley 27 years old
David Bakhtiari 29
Trent Williams 33
K Clark DT 25
Y Nagakoue 26
C Heyward 32
also L Williams and Bud Dupree
Kind of slim pickings or hard to sign candidates
I doubt the XFL will be able to operate if they can’t get fans into stadiums.
There’s no way Ronnie Stanley and Kenny Clark get out of Baltimore and Green Bay. I didn’t think much of either coming into the league but fair play, they’ve been good. I would expect Trent Williams to extend his stay in San Fran. No idea about Bakhtiari’s situation. Ngakoue will almost certainly be a FA unless he’s traded.
Hey Happy Hawk, I don’t think #1 can happen because it is just too soon. I really hope this (XFL) league survives but it is just too soon, considering all that is going on, to do #1. Would you put a link to that article? College football is still trying to figure it out and so is the new ownership. Loved the Seattle Dragons and hope they can continue on!
Here is the link: https://www.si.com/college/georgia/news/xfl-bubble-could-change-football
one more player released after good news John U is tested negative. Sign shows two people will be signed anytime soon. Fingers crossed 🤞
So obviously first test was a false positive for Ursua. Sweet. Have hope for the kid.
Mike Daniels contract is at 2.7 mil. So looks like if SEA wants Jernigan, Dareus, or Harrison (if decides to play), thats where the value is probably going to be is in that 2-2.5 mil range. If they are looking at Mebane or Peko, maybe they can sign them at min wage.
Interesting…
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
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10h
Titans’ LB Vic Beasley did not pass his physical and was placed on the team’s Non-Football Injury list.
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There are other good ones… got my eye on Von Miller who may want another SB run
Presumably you mean with the Broncos?
Nearly a week since Michael Silver reported Griffen or Matthews could sign quickly.
Camp starts today.
Anyone still don’t think that was a nudge to Clowney? It might ultimately be their last nudge but it was a nudge nonetheless.
you are spot on, that was probably last ditch effort from Seattle. They have 2/3 spot open on roster too, so hope something works out.
Do you think new possible addition, they are doing COVID test before they announce the signing?
Here’s hoping Matthews & Griffen don’t mind being pawns LOL.
Would be interesting to know because it seems that’s exactly what they are!
You’re absolutely right Rob. Let’s see if Clowney budges, or if he visits the Titans. I still think playing in that 3-4 scheme is something he does not prefer, because of the LB vs DE projected salary benefits. That’s what he didn’t like in Houston.
Camp stream starts at 1pm. I might not get a chance to watch all of them, but I’m looking for:
* OL and DL – how do they look?
* OL – who is at RG? Will Lewis be able to step right into the job? Or will they want someone like Jamarco Jones there? LG? Can they go with potential (Haynes) or experience (Iupati)?
* DL – maybe the question of camp – what does Collier look like? Can he actually contribute this year?
* LB – are they going to deploy Irvin at SAM as they’ve said? How quickly can Brooks get up to speed?
* DB’s – who is playing at nickel? Blair/Ugo? Or will Dunbar get reps there?
In the past, the streams were basically just shots of people warming up with the presenters talking over the top. It was really hard to get a handle on anything. We’ll see if this is any different today.
I’ve been checking the TV but I don’t think the signal will be sent to Alaska on our TV network. 🙁
You can watch via YouTube. Head to the Seahawks channel.
I found it!!! Mostly just stretching and color commentary so far. PC is a young 69.
That’s all it ever is to be fair. And if they do any drills the camera never gives you a good enough look to see what’s going on. Just an endless run of close-ups or shots of people standing around. You don’t get any 1v1 stuff usually.
The biggest takeaway will be what shape the guys look to be in after the extended offseason. Just jerseys and shorts for a few days.
Dunbar may not be on the field yet. He has to pass Covid protocol and I don’t think he was in SEA until Sun.
I just want to see the rooks on the field since they didn’t get to have the rookie camp.
Jamal Adams’ thighs look like tree trunks. Olympic skater level.
How’s the new 1-4-6 defensive formation looking?
Tight. But I’m concerned about the OL not getting any reps blocking anyone.
Yes, the offensive line is a work in progress. It’s going to be hard for the offense for a few games. But the saving grace is that the other teams have the same issues about practice time.
Question; Has any quarterback made the Hall of Fame who never received a MVP vote?
Cody Barton just got stiff armed to the ground by a junior ballboy.
Cha, that was a low blow to Cody. Just don’t go there…
cha: low blow indeed but funny as hell. You win the internet for this afternoon.
I thought he was being serious…
Stray observations:
* Ursua out there so he must be activated
* Sullivan working with the TEs
* Parkinson in uni but no helmet, not doing much but with the TE group as they move from drill to drill
* didn’t see Carson but I didn’t see the camera catch the RBs at all
* Olsen looks good, fit
Looks like Jernigan is visiting JAX and excepted to sign pending physical. No notable 3 Techs left in the market if that is the case. Still have Snacks and Dareus for 1 Tech though.
Yeah, cause all they need is another RAC offensive weapon…
I didn’t like seeing that earlier.
He’s the type of depth player who just lingers on a roster… waiting for the game against Seattle.
Carroll ominous on Darrell Taylor.
Still recovering from an injury last year.
Had big injury flags going into the draft.
Anyone thinking he’s going to contribute in 2020 needs to readjust their expectations.
At least they’ve got loads of talent and depth at DE…
Great. Robinson added weight, “could have run more” this offseason. PC had to talk to him, wants him at his quickest weight.
Haha!
It’s OK… they’ve got Benson Mayowa.
In PC language, that’s a damning indictment.
PC
No Carson – “family stuff he has to take care of. Not sure how many more days it will be. Full support”
Offseason work – “virtual learning has really prepared us”
KJ Shoulder? “Cleared physical with flying colors. Great shape”
Dunbar in town? “Going through protocol, first day Friday. Physical Friday”
Darrell Taylor health? “Wasn’t ready to go. Gotta see. No damage to knee. Not sure how long. Treatments will take a week. Hoping to know in a couple weeks. Related to last year’s injury.”
Colby Parkinson “doing great. Might have a chance pretty quick to get back out. Making really good progress.”
Sullivan as a TE? “We drafted him to play TE for us. Going to keep him there.”
Ursua a false positive test? “Yes”
Jamal Adams impressions “Brings a smile to my face. Really sharp, competitive, wants to know all the details. Willing to be corrected and coached. Unique focus. He’s the real deal. Has high expectations for what he brings to the team.”
The Darrell Taylor quotes and body language was concerning.
Can’t believe nobody asked about Griffen/Matthews or the need to add someone else given the Taylor news.
On the bright side, we got to hear what PC thinks of MLB teams and their COVID protocol.
//smacks forehead.
It’s a joke. It’s an easy question.
‘Coach — there was a report last week you were looking to sign a couple of your former SC guys in Everson Griffen and Clay Matthews. What’s the chances?’
Just ask it.
If he blows it off, so what!?!?!
Taylor is hurt already? Many are we snakebit or what?
Malik, Naz, Penny, Dissly, Collier and now Taylor.
That’s a two 1st’s, two 2nd’s and two 3rd’s that were injured their rookie seasons.
It’s a holdover from last year. He was hurt when they drafted him.
Taylor’s injury is the one he had last year, the one that kept him out of all of the pre-draft process.
They were well aware of this issue and took him anyway.
Why in the name of God would they do that Rob considering they whiffed on McDowell and got zero out of Collier last year?
Because they were desperate
🙁
Considering they traded #59 & 101 to get him, that is frustrating (to me).
Those two picks could have been Uche and Fotu, and at least we’d be throwing warm bodies at positions of need.
They’ve had nice success when moving up to get a guy, so I’m optimistic he’s legit.
Thank goodness we had a question on KJ Wright being a leader.
Nothing on the fact the pass rush latest is Darrell Taylor is injured, Alton Robinson overweight and the only other options on the roster at EDGE is Benson Mayowa.
The number of reporters following up a softball question with “Coach, on that same subject…”
Not one question about the concerns on both lines.
A press conference is meant to be an opportunity to get answers to the questions that matter.
They still have 2021 2nd round pick to spend on YN. 🙂
Robinson is overweight too?
Man, this is so disappointing to hear. Granted, he’s a 5th round pick, but come on.
Wasn’t he training with Bobby, KJ and Avril at FSP in Bellevue to prep for the draft? Then he gets the call and goes Penny?
Welcome to Macdonalds, may I take your order?
I’ll take two of everything. I’m rich, bitch!
Clowney made some money today, I’ll tell you that much.
So, Griffin just sign with Dallas. Well that seems to what our options are but wouldn’t you say? They need to flip the switch on Clowney already. That probably means someone needs to swallow some pride but it’s that important.
Seattle really feels like they are losing leverage by the minute. Injured and unprepared rookies, now Griffin to Dallas. I’m really hoping they don’t settle with Matthews or skip out all together, but I feel like its gonna be harder to sign Clowney even more so now.
FWIW though, my friend sent me a pic of Clowney’s Instagram story from today: “Sometimes your failures teach you many things in your life. Try to face your failures in ordeer to achieve your following success.”
Could mean nothing but I guess I want to be optimistic.
Griffen to the Cowboys. He seemed like the next best option next to Clowney. Big drop off in talent among the rest of free agents.
Just wow………………… 🙁
Dallas has even less cap room than the Seahawks do.
Which means the Seahawks could have afforded Griffen.
Welp, Clowney got all the cards now.
Rob, maybe you should try for a press pass with the Seahawks?
I’m not sure what you need to get one, but at least it is worth a shot….. to ask some hard hitting questions, instead of softballs. I understand you may not get an answer or a non-answer answer…. but ask the fricking question at least….. maybe the local reporters know the Seahawks are the biggest sports draw in town and can’t afford to lose access to the team.
+1 on Rob getting a press pass. I assume he could do it via zoom. I would pitch in for it.
I doubt there’s any chance of that.
Of of curiosity, why? I mean, you were in the locker room for the London game and you are with the BBC. One of the largest media conglomerates in the world. I understand that covering the Seahawks is not what you are paid for with them, but still I would imagine your credibility and reputation which surely dwarfs likes of some of the folks we see in that room.(i’m Glancing Your Way, Seattle PI) 😃
I’m guessing because in the Seahawks world, I’m just a random British bloke with a blog. When they came over here I could legitimately go as a member of the BBC. To jump on the current press conferences, I would have to have a way of justifying it (such as the BBC wanted a line on a certain topic, such as the team coming back to the UK). Otherwise I suppose anyone could request an invite and jump on to ask questions.
Don’t get me wrong I’d love to be able to do it but I equally understand why it almost certainly wouldn’t be allowed. I’m not a full time writer or broadcaster on the Seahawks. I write the blog in my spare time and although I’m very proud of this website and believe it compares favourably to any coverage of the Seahawks out there — it is what it is. A blog, a hobby, a labour of love. And if you don’t read the content regularly, which I’m assuming the Seahawks media team don’t, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between here and any other blog.
And it looks like its one year 6m deal. We didnt want him bad enough if thats the money he wanted to play for and he didnt end up in PNW.
Damn. We could have fit that nicely with our current cap situation… The wait for Clowney appears to be really hurting our search.
I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape about Alton Robinson being a little overweight. Before the lockdown, and I think maybe before the draft, he was working out at the same gym as Cliff Avril and Bobby Wagner. There were a few other Seahawks too. It’s quit possible he bulked up too much. We don’t know if he came in fat.
Q: Is Alton Robinson heavier than when you guys drafted him?
PC: He might be a little bit, I think he’s 67 or something like that. He worked out really hard this offseason. Lifted a lot. Probably could have run more. He really wanted to get as strong and stout as he could get. As a matter of fact I just talked to him today about it. He wants to make sure that he’s at his quickest weight. So, we’re working on that one.
Q: Still see him more as a LEO than a 5-Tech?
PC: Yes
The Hawks drafted him for his explosive traits. And instead of working on those explosive traits in the offseason it appears he worked on bulking up and it has slowed him down.
Is it a disaster? Not necessarily. But I’d guess the Hawks aren’t happy with the direction of his offseason.
I could be totally wrong on this – but the question felt like a plant. A shot across the bow the team put out there. Would a reporter be able to look at a guy the first day of camp and know he’s heavier after not laying eyes on him for at least 4 months?
Just because you work out at Cliff Avril’s gym or work out in the same building with Bobby Wagner means absolutely nothing.
Well, he mentioned that in his draft day interview and Cliff Avril broke down his film on the team site right here.
https://www.seahawks.com/video/film-session-alton-robinson
And?
It doesn’t mean he’s learnt anything. Coming in over weight isn’t exactly a great start is it.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29571746/long-lost-fan-letters-barry-sanders-found-nearly-20-years-later-nfl
Damn, these stories people shared really took me back reading this article. When you get to talk to your heroes, even if delayed a few decades 🙂
And now Griffen is finally off the table…it really is Clowney or bust.
From a salary cap situation, it’s frustrating that Griffen and Matthews will get less than Irvin and I’d so much rather have either of them over Irvin.
If there was any doubt, all eggs in one basket. Trying to look at the glass half full. If Griffen signed for $6M that may put a top on what JC could get. Or would it?? I suspect the opposite. This team is a good D line away from being a serious SB contender.
Clowney isn’t accepting $6m because a player will in his 30’s with off-field concerns got $6m.
I wasn’t suggesting $6M will be his cap. My point was if Griffen signed for $6M he may realistically get $12M+. But $16-$17M or more is a pipe dream.
Would you trade Blair for YN?
Sure, I’d also trade Branden Jackson for YN.
Both as likely to happen.
Ngakoue’s on $17m Millhouse. You’d have to create about $10m just to be able to fit him on the roster and you’d have nothing left for a defensive tackle or receiver.
There is no chance of them trading for Ngakoue.
Gregg Williams throwing shade at Seattle but also kind of telling it how it is regarding the scheme:
https://twitter.com/snyjets/status/1293926810451947520
Not throwing shades but telling it how it is. Seattle plays a basic scheme. They expect the players to fit their scheme as opposed to taking advantage of players strengths. Like asking Graham to block.