Live stream today — 2pm PST


  1. HawkfaninMT

    Thoughts on trading for Roquon Smith? I don’t know much about him beyond when he was drafted and games against the Hawks. Age is nice (25) for The Rebuild, LB is a need (imo), familiarity with Desai… seems like a good fit to me without knowing what his contract demands are, and what the trade comp would be

    • cha

      We’ve got a gently used strong safety in stock.

      Set the all-time record for sacks by a defensive back.

      On a Hall of Fame trajectory if you don’t count the last two seasons.

      The Bears like defense right?

      We’re practically giving him away! Come down and see us!

      • Big Mike

        “We’re practically giving him away”……….do you think they’d take him off our hands if we threw in a 5th?……..OK final offer, we’ll throw in a 4th and pay half his salary.
        To quote Pete Townsend, “I call that a bargain, the best I ever had”.

      • Big Boi

        Uhm, maybe not the world’s worst idea. We’ve already paid him 93% of his guaranteed money ncluding his 2022 salary so the Bears would only be on the hook for $2.56 million next year and then could restructure him to avoid having to pay $11 million (nonguaranteed) in 2023. We’d be on the hook for $28 million in dead cap but according to OverTheCap, we can spread that out over 4 years since it’s a post June 1 trade, meaning only $7 million dead cap for the next four years. We’ve already paid out almost all of his guaranteed money so at least we wouldn’t be throwing good money after bad by paying him $11 million next year. Now, the wisdom of having your two highest paid players being a WR without a QB and an off-ball linebacker would be debatable, but the overall idea is very palatable to me. Get John on the phone!

      • RealRhino2

        I doubt Pete is interested in practically giving away the key to our defense.

    • Rob Staton

      There’s no chance that happens

      Too expensive

      They also need to stop blowing money and picks on non premium positions

      • Mick

        Totally agree, if we already look faster at LB with Barton, draft a promising LB in 4th round for depth and call it a day.

  2. Rob Staton

    Watching the live stream of camp right now and can’t believe how sparse the crowd is watching

    • sonicreducer

      I was there, one of the workers said there was only 900 in attendance. He said 3500 is max capacity. They scrimmaged on the far field so it was hard to see much. When I went in 2017 the scrimmage was on the near field, that was a better experience.

      • Rob Staton

        So a quarter full. Yikes

  3. cha

    Ryan Neal high ankle sprain. PC says “gonna be a bit. Pretty good ankle sprain.”

    • Elmer

      We’ll see if Blair is able to take advantage of the opportunity. If not, we are thin at SS.

      • cha

        I think they are still set on using Blair at nickel.

        Pete has said some great things about Josh Jones:

        He’s had a very, very obvious camp. He’s probably got more picks than anyone else. He’s playing all of the spots; we’re able to put him all over the place. He’s almost a reborn football player to me.

        He’s made hits, he’s made plays on the ball, he’s fitting the running game, he’s covered guys, so he’s been really important. It’s been a big opportunity for him with Ryan Neal not out there, and he’s taken advantage of that.

    • Big Mike

      Those tend to be a couple of months minimum barring near miracle healing. What’s the list that allows a player to be activated in the shortest amount of time? Is it PUP? How long? 6 games?

      • TomLPDX

        Too late to go on PUP. That only occurs before training camp begins. IR is now a 4 game minimum but they can be added back after that.

        • Big Mike

          Thanks my friend. Depending on how fast he is at healing, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see him start the season on IR.

          • Peter

            Bummed for neal. Such a solid player. Hopefully JA gets a third and even a fourth opinion and he can play.

  4. cha

    PC says Geno starting Saturday. No big shock.

    • Big Mike

      No, not a big shock. And then when Drew outplays him Pete’s gonna talk about how Geno went up against ones and Drew didn’t while not giving Drew an opportunity vs. ones.

      • Big Mike

        Pete said of Smith’s performance in the scrimmage: “I think it was his most solid performance. He’s had really good days too, but I think that was the best one under the circumstances. I really liked his and his comfort in the pocket, handling stuff, adjustments, calls he had to make at the line of scrimmage, all of that he handled very well.”

        Solid performance? His best day?

        • bmseattle

          Pete is gaslighting us.

          • Big Mike

            I don’t believe that but I sincerely hope you’re right and I’m completely wrong.

            • bmseattle

              I just meant that he is testing our sanity by telling us that “reality” is the opposite of what we perceive.
              That is, we all see that Geno sucked during the scrimmage, but Pete insists he had his “best day”.

              • Big Mike

                Yeah I was pretty sure I understood what you meant. My issue is I think Pete’s trying to convince us Geno is better cuz he’s hellbent on starting him to try to prove he doesn’t need Wilson to win as Florio has theorzed. I do think he’s that small minded plus he knows he’s not going anywhere so if it fails he can bring Lock in mid-season. Plus I think he also knows neither is the long-term answer so trying to prove his point with no fear of getting fired has no downside.
                Others here don’t agree with me. If and when Lock outplays Smith in the preseason we’ll see if he tries to BS us about Smith, as he did this week saying it’s the best he’s played so far, and then starts him anyway.

                • Big Mike

                  In other words, I think we agree. 🙂

                  • bmseattle

                    Ah, yeah… I get it.
                    It’ll be interesting to see how he handles it if Lock clearly outperforms Geno, going forward.
                    As long as they are somewhat close, Pete can justify going with Geno.

                    If Lock is clearly better, I think Pete will be happy to play him over Geno.
                    I mean, it’s not like anyone thinks Lock is anywhere close to Wilson in ability, so if Pete can win with Lock, it would make a similar point as it would as winning with Geno, don’t you think?

                  • Big Mike

                    I don’t agree but I hope to be proven wrong.

                  • TomLPDX

                    This is one time that I hope you’re proven wrong. 😉

                    If Lock does outplay Geno on a consistent basis, I think Pete will go with Lock. If they are equal, it’s Geno all the way.

  5. Thomas

    Just strange to me that the crowd is so sparse. More excited about this season than last. I don’t think we’ll do better, but we’d hit a rut.

    Just odd.

    • Peter

      At practices?

      If I had to guess who would you be going out to see besides Metcalf if you were a “regular,” fan? As of yet there’s no stars or legends for normal folk to want to go hang their hat on.

    • Big Mike

      Well I can tell you, despite being excited to see the development of the young guys, especially to watch Walker III run, as a gigantic Gonzaga hoops fan I will be watching the 2 or 3 Sunday games they have rather than watching the Hawks if they’re on at the same time. That’s especially true when they play Kentucky and coach Cheatapari. Years of shit drafting by Pete and John have caught up with this team. Hopefully the last couple of drafts begin the turn around. Regardless, it’s really hard to be excited no matter how “stale” it got the last couple of years.

      • Peter

        Big Mike,

        Did something I could have never conceived before….going on vacation and going to miss two games early in the year. Of course I’ll check the blog.

        Last year I followed mostly via the live comments, nfl tracker, and highlights.

        Figure with the slow starts, new players, and of course geno playing….what’s the point. Going to watch the Denver game not because I care one way or the other about the outcome but just to get a sense if this team is going to run it 30x a game and see how the young guys play.

        • Group Captain Mandrake

          Lat year you could watch all the games on the Seahawks app, so I would assume they will do the same this year. So if you feel like inflicting a little self hate you could still watch them on vacation.

          • Peter

            The app is a good way but the nine hour time difference I’m going to be on says otherwise😀.

            Plus, realistically what am I going to glean in the first quarter of the season? Unless the hawks win the first four or are losing the first four I think we will all know more about the team sometime in November.

            • Peter

              I think the first four games looks like this:

              Loss to the broncos. Russ may be done but he’s still better by any metric than what we have. Defenses are a push. Run game just based on last year is a push. New coach blues? Maybe. But Russ in primtime? Lumen field is not the place it once was.

              Loss to the niners. Better defense until I see otherwise from Seattle.

              Win against Atlanta. They feel rudderless.

              I’m leaning loss to the Lions. But maybe a win.

              I think 6 wins is my total for the year and that comes in the second half. Lots of interesting names on the roster. Gabe Jackson and blythe don’t give me a lot of confidence. Cross and Lucas is a great move but to expect them to ball out right away…seems unlikely. The Db’s have some intrigue. Even if woolen gets really good I still think it takes a half season. At UTSA he was very stiff sometimes. Love mafe and Taylor….but will Pete know how to use them right away? Don’t always hate the guy but he did have Robinson riding the bench for no conceivable reason.

            • Group Captain Mandrake

              I totally get you. Nine hours is a big gap. I’ve pretty much given up on watching football in September or October. I’d rather take care of the remaining decent weather and be outside rather than sitting in front of the TV all afternoon.

              • Peter

                Same. Late September and October are great times to be doing stuff outside. Before the winter sets in.

        • Big Mike

          Fall vacations are nice Peter. The kids are back in school so the crowds have thinned out in a lot of tourist type places, the weather is cooler and at elevation, the colors are popping. The wife and I are planning one next fall to the Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon and Zion. If I don’t see a Hawks game, so be it. That’s what the DVR is for. 6 or 7 years ago I wouldn’t have even considered anything on a Seattle gameday outside of Vegas/Reno/Tahoe where I knew I could watch the game at any sportsbook. I just don’t have the same oomph for the team anymore. Obviously neither do you nor do plenty of other folks considering the lack of attendance at camp.

          • cha

            Bryce > Grand

            See both for sure but Bryce is amazing

            • Big Mike


            • Big Mike

              I’ve been to all 3 on a solo motorcycle trip. I’m going back cuz the wife has never been down there.

          • Peter

            Years ago I would “vacation,” back in my hometown of Seattle to hang out and watch the games.

            Then came the dvr.

            Then came fast forwarding through the last two years of “defensive stands.” Quotes intended.

            Then came fast forwarding to the mid point of the third quarter unless the players were getting up for a play.

            Then last year I had a blast in the comments section goofing around in my shop and catching Rob’s peerless YouTube reactions.

            This year. I’ll watch a bit more but the wife and I are going to be in Amsterdam and Rome and frankly I don’t have Rob’s dedication. Just plan to watch highlights and instant reactions in the morning.

            Grand canyon, etc al., will be amazing in fall.

  6. Trevor

    Anyone else get the feeling that Darrel Taylor is going to be a breakout superstar this season?

    • Peter

      Really hope so. Was pretty down on his slow recovery after so many injury bust picks. Very, very happy to look like I was totally off the mark with him.

      Hope Pete remembers Alton Robinson is on the team as well.

  7. Robert Las Vegas

    My dream case scenario would involve Geno Smith start all 17 games the Seahawks Win about 5 games this year. Denver has a rocky start.Pete steps away and after Sean Payton takes his one year off and decides to return to coaching and becomes the Seahawks head coach and I realize that we all have dreams.sometimes i forget that D’Wayne Eskridge is even on the team? I have concerns about Cody Barton? If the Seahawks play a lot of 3/4 can Woods, Ford, and Mone stuff the run on a constant level?

    • Peter

      Excited to see Shelby Harris as well on the dline.

      Probably the best player they got in the trade. I know optimism about Fant but have some doubts when an offensive coach is willing to get rid of a young guy.

      Pretty interested to see how Denver and Seattle get on early. Just checked their respective schedules and they are about the same level of competition having the same record last year.

  8. calgaryhawk

    I would be very interested in your opinion on Nathan Rourke QB first year starter for the BC Lions of the Canadian Football League. You may need to watch tape from this years Lions games and yes, the rules are different but good arm, great accuracy, somewhat mobile. Setting records like crazy.

    • Dregur

      Just looking at his highlights, and his scouting report coming out of college, I don’t see a NFL QB. I see a really good college QB or CFL QB.

      He runs a pure RPO offense, both in College and the CFL, and his arm strength is okay, but I’m seeing a lot of throws that mostly float in the air that would scare me a lot against an NFL defense.

      • calgaryhawk

        Really, you have to see this years tape. his game has improved so much(better coaching??) The all time record for completed passing in the CFL is about 73%, that includes the likes of Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Joe Theisman, Jeff Garcia. Rourke is completing over 81% of his passes, on the hands. Not the receivers reaching and making him look good. He is totally different from his college days.

  9. cha

    Pelissero says Geno will start Saturday but ‘Lock has pretty clearly been better’ the last two weeks.

  10. swedenhawk

    Great episode. Really enjoy the dynamic that Adam brings.

    • Peter

      Second this.

    • 509 Chris

      Totally agree. F Russ! He left the team. That was great. I’ll always route for the guy but I’m not cheering him in our house.

  11. UkAlex6674

    I think it’s possible to both be competitive and look to the (immediate) future at the same time.

    Why does it have to be one or the other?

    • Group Captain Mandrake

      It doesn’t HAVE to be one or the other, but Seattle has such a young team with a few holes in important positions on the roster that it’s going to be hard to do that. I would be fine with a losing season where the games were fun and competitive because it points to a better next season. But with no QB and a young OL, I would be surprised if they started very well. I expect it will be a better team at the end though.

  12. Gaux Hawks

    I think everyone is saying the same thing but in their own words, and I agree with it all…

    Pete isn’t going to tank, Lock needs to earn the starting job (for the locker room and the optics), Pete wants to remain competitive in 2022, maintain draft capital in 2023, this year’s expectations have probably been lowered behind closed doors (which is realistic), but he still wants to beat the broncos, win the division, win a super bowl, and continue to strengthen his team through the draft and FA (R. Smith ??).

    Easier said than done, but I can’t believe that he’d want it any other way.

    I respect RW3. I’m going to miss RW3. But I’m excited about following the drama for the next 18 months…

    Hard to believe preseason starts this week!

    • Peter

      A lot of this is spot on.

      Seattle will take a ton of lumps. New oline. Unstable qb. Even new defense.

      But they can stay competitive. Have a bunch of interesting games. Maybe even see some flashes of greatness from young players. They get 6-7 wins with a softer schedule and that gives them a good draft spot for next year.

      Don’t think the broncos are winning the superbowl. Alternately not as down on them as others here are hoping for. Afc west everyone says is tough. The Chiefs to me are the only scary team in that division. The Chargers have a big time offense but the defense sucked last year. The Raiders had a negative points for/points against differential. Heck the woebegone Broncos lost five games by a td or less and had abysmal QB play. Not Wilson sucks and can’t play bad…. but actual bad.

      Even if they get into the playoffs and I think they can (weak schedule outside of their division) their draft pick and Seattle’s pick could be franchise altering for the better.

  13. Peter

    It’s totally possible. 2011 the team was extremely competitive with the defense holding it down. With the new db’s and an upgrade with pass rush I think we could be watching a lot of close games.

    • Peter

      Reply fail to ukalex6674

    • JimQ

      I recently went thru the schedule and ended up with 7 probable wins and 3 games that with luck, could be toss-ups. I know this might be a bit optimistic, but I have visions of a strong running game and a better defense.

      • Rowdy

        Pete’s first year was a very lucky 7 win team and his second year was a very unlucky 7 win team. This team is more talented then those teams though but doesn’t mean that we could be a 5 win team despite the better talent. We’re not going to be good enough to overcome bad bounces but if the ball bounces are way a lot, we could pull off 9 wins.

        • Rob Staton

          Nine is a stretch

        • Mick

          I could see 7 if we get 49ers twice and Arizona once.

        • Peter

          Don’t know yet that this team is more talented than 2011.

          Just my vantage point but known good to great players on this team: Diggs, Lockett, Metcalf, Dickson, Taylor (?)…then you hope Penny is able to put it together, obviously Walker we hope is awesome, and there’s reason to be optimistic about a few DB’s and others such as Mafe.

          But 2011:

          Lynch… a no doubt tone setting, franchise setting dawg of a player.
          Okung…not a fan favorite but better than anyone in 2022 until further notice.
          Unger…an actual Center who the team still hasn’t replaced.
          Carpenter…ehh might be reaching here.

          Then the defense:

          Kj Wright
          Richard Sherman
          Brandon Browner
          Kam Chancellor
          Earl Thomas

          And I’m leaving off other names like Clemons who mattered.

          I am “pumped and jacked,” for a lot of this new roster. The RB’s excite me but the online feels shambolic still. Looking forward to Hurtt’s defense. And what Desai does. But there’s no bona-fide star power on defense, yet.

        • Happy Hawk

          Draft Kings has the Hawks winning 3 games.

          • Peter


            That’s pretty rough. Though great for getting a new qb.

          • Big Mike

            Three? If you can get an over on that, jump on it. As I’ve said before, I hate that I hate Pete Carroll now, but no team he coaches is going to win 3 games out of 17.

            • Peter

              Over for sure.

              Jets, giants, falcons, lions, carolina, no losing record in division, and I don’t think the raiders are the truth.

              I don’t think they’ll get those nine wins. But who knows about the niners this year. Kyler “mandatory study time,” Murray isn’t that scary. Carolina might have as ridiculous of a qb situation as ours. And Atlanta looks to be tanking without showing anyone they are tanking. Daniel Jones probably shouldn’t be starting in the NFL.

            • ukalex6674

              100% agree with Big Mike, no way a PC team wins only 3 games.

              It’s hard to project this seasons record as teams that were not good last year may come better, then good teams worse vice versa.

              But I am leaning towards a 6/7 win season, with a fair few close games.

          • Big Boi

            Nah, they’re 5.5 just like every other sportsbook I’ve seen.
            That being said, comparing this defense to the 2011 defense is a fool’s errand. I know we’re all excited about Coby and Woolen but I’ve said it before: if you’re starting 4th and 5th round rookies at CB, that says more about your cornerback room then it does about the 4th and 5th round rookies. They only have one real safety that has their back and we don’t know if the pass rush is significantly upgraded over last year just yet. If opposing teams can pick on the CBs until we’re forced to support them, then just run the ball down our throat, we’re in for a long season as I’m afraid that defense is going to be on the field A LOT.
            The teams that we used to crush will now be dogfights. Do not underestimate the Jets, Lions, and Panthers (Baker is a better QB than anything we have, though he is not the solution to our long-term problem and so we’re better off without him).
            And our conference? I just seem a lot of assumptions here but I would not be surprised if we go winless because each team either got better or stayed the same and we are demonstrably worse. It’s just a fact.
            Now, all of that being said, I want a 3 win season where our young guys learn and build a foundation. Get our choice of QB and then shore up our defense with Denver’s pick without unnecessarily using our draft capital. I don’t know why people think that’s just a bad thing.

  14. Peter

    A little disheartened to see the unofficial depth chart with Damien Lewis still at LG.

    The hope of a Cross-someone-blythe(meh)-lewis-lucas line to start the season seems to be fading from me. Had hoped the team would take it’s lumps but get 3/5 of the line gelling for the future but I am starting to worry that it might be more of the musical chairs style that has plagued Seattle for forever.

  15. AlaskaHawk

    Let’s not get all doom and gloom about the Seahawks season. A lot of people are going to be surprised by the strength of Walker and Penny running the ball. I mean blown away by them. In a big way. Not to hex them, but there is no reason to think that either one couldn’t be as good as Lynch if they stay healthy. So lets not go crying in the cheerios.

    They will have an excellent running game, a fair to average passing game, and a better defense than last year.

    • Peter

      Got to see it from Penny first. Amazing stretch when nothing mattered. Objectively an overall listless career thus far.

      Hope the oline can help them out a ton. Big time hope for Walker.

      Very excited for the defensive changes.

      There’s unfortunately a very real chance the passing game when teams start stacking the box is not fair or average and lets the games go. Maybe geno’s changed for real. Maybe Lock hasn’t received a fair shot. Both of their careers so far stat wise are the kind that lose you games.

    • Big Mike

      I’m really excited about Walker but he still has to have holes to run through. The o-line will be a work in progress and likely pretty crappy early on. Plus as Peter said, defenses are likely to stack the box regularly on first and second downs, especially of Geno is the QB.

      • AlaskaHawk

        A couple of our division rivals would stack the box against Wilson – no matter what the play they were going to chase him down. So I don’t think the play calling is going to affect their strategy that much. Let them stack , it may be the best chance for our quarterbacks to complete passes.

        • Peter


          That’s the rub though. I think and hope that by mid season the line can gel. Early on though it’s a rookie at LT. A jouneymen’s journey man at center, Gabe Jackson inexplicably is still the RG, and Curhan- good with the run, bad with the pass pro all holding it down for two qbs that are both sub 60% completion rates.

          Could be rough sledding until that line solidifies.

          • AlaskaHawk

            Your right. But there is a couple position changes every year in the line. I’m hoping they use the matching rookie tackles. Four years of continuity!

            • Peter

              Same. Get that line going sooner rather than later.

  16. TomLPDX

    Good to see Duane get on with the Jets…2 years/$22M. Not bad for an old dude! Looks like Becton is done.

    • Sea Mode

      Rich Cimini
      · 34m

      Curious to get George Fant’s thoughts if he has to move back to RT to accommodate Brown. Fant has been going back + forth for 2 years, played well at LT in ’21 + feels he has earned a contract extension. Now his former SEA teammate gets 2 yrs/$22M. Interesting situation. #Jets

    • Ashish

      Brown will be above avg but Hawks did right by drafting two tackles

  17. cha

    Bob Condotta
    Sidney Jones (concussion) was back on the field today working with starters at LCB. But Carroll said he won’t play against Steelers. So that means rookie CBs Coby Bryant and Tariq Woolen should get the starts at corner.
    Show this thread
    Bob Condotta
    A few other injury updates — Carroll said Rashaad Penny dealing with a slight groin issue. Seems unlikely he’ll play Saturday. LJ Collier will be out a week or so with a sprained elbow. Carroll said he’d need Tommy John surgery if he were a pitcher.
    Show this thread
    Bob Condotta
    Seahawks gonna be a little light at receiver Saturday as Marquise Goodwin is dealing with a hamstring issue and Freddie Swain back tightness along with Dee Eskridge still sidelined (hamstring).

    • Blitzy the Clown

      Some of the usual suspects. But in fairness, compared to some of the injury reports I’m seeing from around the League, this isn’t bad.

      I see Trubisky will start for Pittsburgh vs Seattle.

    • Ashish

      Dee Eskridge, Rashaad Penny and LJ Collier not sure if they are really unlucky with injuries? Every year they are on the list even before preseason game.

      • Peter

        Agreed. Sometimes it seems like a luck issue and other times you wonder how many injuries did a guy like Kam or Lynch have with their styles and just keep playing.

      • CaptainJack

        Dee Eskridge is probably just too small to play in the nfl. The rams are having the same issue with tutu Atwell.

        Wasted selection… Tyreke smith is short but he’s a bowling ball of muscle. See Eskridge is short + too slight

        • CaptainJack

          *Tyreek Hill… lol

    • Big Boi

      A “slight” groin issue. Are you effing kidding me? There really is no such thing. It’s either a groin strain or it’s not. And how does a guy that should be worried to death about injuries get a soft tissue injury at this stage in his career in his make-or-break season? Just when this guy gets our hopes up…..

      • Peter

        You think he’d be all over pilates/yoga/ Barre anything to prevent this stuff.

        At least Walker looks like a real one.

        Just me but this is honestly what I thought this season was going to be like for Penny. Hope, yes, that he’d put on a show most of the season. Reality? Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he did the same magic trick this year that he did last year. Before blowing our minds at the end of the season the guy was checking himself out of games after single carries.

        • TomLPDX


          Peter, I generally agree with a lot of stuff you post but c’mon man. Penny checking out of games? I don’t think so.

          • Peter

            Well played TomLPDX!!!😄 for a second I was like “what is going on with Tom?”….nicely done.

          • Peter

            This is my mistake…not checking out of games. Never. Just subbing himself out of plays.

            Apologies are all mine.😄

    • CaptainJack

      I like Sidney jones. Was a great husky.
      But… in the nfl, he’s just average. If this means Bryant or woolen passes him up long term, I’m happy with that.

      Collier is a bubble nfl player and if a guy like Tyreke Smith beats him out for a roster spot, great.

      Nothing really special about swain. If melton or young beat him out, great. Young is dripping with so much potential. He’s bigger faster and more aggressive than swain. I’d prefer him as WR4. Could have something in melton also.

      Penny will always miss part of the season. Hope he contributes some. But Walker is RB1.

      Anyways, total youth movement on the team and I’m here for it. Don’t expect many wins, just lots of learning moments and I expect the team to be competitive in 2023.

  18. Sea Mode

    Good. We could sure use a big hit in the RB drafting dept.

    Brady Henderson

    Carroll had a glowing — even by his standards — assessment of Ken Walker III, saying he’s surprised at how well-rounded the rookie RB has become. Said he’s “turned the page” with his college pass-pro struggles. “He could play all three downs and we’d feel comfortable with it.”

    • cha

      He also said Woolen was “all over the place” in college and has “cleaned his game up”

      Somebody buy Karl Scott an ice cream cone!

    • Peter

      Really hope he can play a ton and not get snake bit and injured. Can’t wait to see him play in a real game.

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