Ownership, the Seahawks, big decisions and the 2022 QB class

Kenny Pickett is probably the #1 quarterback eligible for the 2022 draft

The British columnist Rod Liddle once coined the phrase ‘we’ve reached peak w**k’.

While reflecting on the Seahawks’ current situation, the term felt somewhat appropriate.

This really is the nadir when it comes to the Pete Carroll Seahawks.

They’ve played nine games, meaning there are eight more to be endured in this truly horrible season.

You’ve also got to wait at least eight weeks to find out what on earth will happen with this franchise moving forward.

I suspect many will want to fast forward to January and get on with it.

With so much football to play, the message will remain very much a rallying call. A ‘we’re not giving up’ type of address.

The more frank, deeper, reflective comments won’t come for a while.

It also means fans have an enormous amount of time to stew on the future.

Is this Carroll’s final year? What’s going to happen with Russell Wilson? Is it time for John Schneider to move on?

These questions could easily create anxiety for a fan base suddenly staring at a crossroads. The direction to be taken will be determined by a mostly unknown and anonymous ownership group who’ve barely uttered a sentence in public since the passing of Paul Allen.

In the meantime, Allen’s other great sporting venture — the Portland Trailblazers — appear to be stuck in an eerily similar malaise with an equally uncertain future for their star player.

Is it a coincidence? Probably not. The Seahawks benefitted from a world class owner and reached three Super Bowls through his leadership. By all accounts the new ownership structure appears to be a holding pattern. I can’t recall the last time such an arrangement bred success.

Whatever happens though, the best decisions are not made in haste. And this is why ‘peak w**k’ may not yet have been reached. The term could re-emerge in the New Year.

The decision to fire Jim Mora and appoint Carroll felt calculated and planned. It wasn’t something that just happened.

I suspect Allen made a decision on Mora weeks before anyone found out officially. Carroll was likely sounded out long before he walked into the auditorium, jokingly pretended to put on the strategically placed Seahawks helmet and breathed life and hope into every fan watching his opening press conference.

A decision on the next coach should take time. If necessary, a top candidate should be sounded out through the back-channels. An attractive, mind-blowing offer needs to be made — just as it was to Carroll and Mike Holmgren previously.

The Seahawks benefitted from ambitious thinking under Allen’s leadership. That, if nothing else, should firmly be retained.

If Carroll is considering retirement — as I suspect he most certainly is — then I hope he’s given ownership the heads up. They need to know what he’s thinking.

We’ll never know what their thought process is, of course, if they’re equally thinking a change is needed.

If a new GM is required, this is also something that needs to be managed very carefully. The modern NFL requires a close working relationship between coach and GM otherwise they just end up at odds with each other constantly.

If Schneider is to remain, he probably needs to pick Carroll’s replacement. Whether he deserves that much power is a major question mark given the way he’s handled the draft and recruitment since the re-set.

It should also be noted that any prospective coach and GM is going to know what he’s walking into. Will top candidates want to tackle another Wilson trade saga? Will they want to trade him and rebuild? Will that be attractive to a GM or a reason to run away, arms flailing in the wind?

Listening to the right people for decisions like this is always important. If they are set to make changes, I’d hope they consult with Todd Leiweke — even if it’s just to get his recommendation on alternative advisors. I’d also arrange a meeting with former Baltimore GM (and current Executive VP) Ozzie Newsome to pick his brains.

If the decision is made to stick by a coach who earlier today stated his desire to beat the Aaron Rodgers-led Packers at Lambeau Field by a score of ‘about 9-3’ (only to lose 17-0) and a GM who set about Seattle’s re-set by drafting Rashaad Penny and L.J. Collier before trading the house for Jamal Adams — they also need to be fully aware of what that means.

It means life without Russell Wilson.

I can already see some people have decided they’re OK with that. Forget that Aaron Rodgers similarly had a pretty ‘meh’ performance yesterday — the toil in the Tundra was enough for some to take the shackles off and say, with confidence, that they want to move on.

Unlike many of those fans who increasingly seem to fill my Twitter timeline — I have studied the 2022 quarterback class in depth.

It’s worse than I originally thought — and I thought it was pretty bad to begin with.

I’m going to provide some notes on each ‘top’ quarterback prospect in a moment. Let me be clear though — I suspect trading Wilson will only lead to the signing of a stop-gap quarterback, in the mould of Tarvaris Jackson in 2011.

Names that spring to mind are Mitchell Trubisky and Teddy Bridgewater.

I think this is probably likely to be what would happen and it would be a catastrophe. Collecting a bunch of picks, moving on from Wilson and starting afresh might appeal to some. Let’s see how they feel when Trubisky is running the offense. Or when those draft picks turn into players who actually have to be good.

They could try and trade for a veteran. Dealing for Aaron Rodgers to play Carroll-ball just seems highly unlikely. Why would he or Deshaun Watson want to come and play in the system Wilson is so eager to detach himself from?

Watson has a no-trade clause like Wilson. I’m not sure about Rodgers. All three individuals, though, have a big say in their next destination.

If Wilson goes — he’ll likely be replaced by a competition between a draft pick and a veteran desperate for a job.

I’m now going to offer brief thoughts on the 2022 quarterback class in what I hope will be a stark ‘careful what you wish for’ warning. I’ll also say, there isn’t a name or names to pine for in 2023. This is a difficult stretch at the quarterback position in college football. I can’t think of a worse time to trade a legit starting quarterback.

Kenny Pickett (QB, Pittsburgh)
He’s the best of the group but it’s dabbing with faint praise. Pickett is a plus athlete with greater agility and explosive lower body power than most realise. His SPARQ testing was impressive. He’s well sized at 6-3 and 220lbs and in the midst of a breakout season, having opted to return for a fifth year due to the Covid rules in college football. He’s extremely busy in the pocket. Too often when he feels outside pressure he does well initially to step up. However, he just keeps going — too often stepping into the focus of a linebacker and creating unnecessary pressure. He needs to be able to step up and then settle down, allowing plays to develop and taking what’s on offer. He’s also hesitant to throw — refusing to throw basic completions and take what the defense gives. I’ve seen him reject plays that are on (simple plays) and you end up screaming ‘just get rid of it’. He’s the opposite of Mac Jones in that regard and it concerns me what he’ll be like at the next level with a faster game and tighter windows. This is especially concerning because he’s in year five at Pitt. The game has clearly slowed down for him enough to elevate his performance this year significantly. But if there’s a seven yard reception open on a check down and you’re stood in the pocket, just get rid. If your receiver finds a window on a crosser and it’s open as a primary target, don’t hold the football because it’s not wide open. I’ve not seen a lot of evidence of amazing anticipation throws and throwing receivers open (again, Jones was adept here and it’s why he’s having a strong rookie campaign.) His arm strength is fine and he’s completed some pretty throws this year. His production is impressive and he’s in the Heisman picture. He’s also taken Pittsburgh up a level with his performances. Yet there’s a distinct lack of ‘wow’ factor with Pickett and it’s difficult to recommend him as much more than a second round prospect.

Malik Willis (QB, Liberty)
More of an athlete than quarterback at this stage. Willis has major technical flaws in terms of his footwork and throwing motion that lead to massive issues with consistency. In a given game you’ll see him throw a laser in one instance with impressive velocity and direction, then on the next throw he’ll one-hop an easy completion or just flat out miss because his body, shoulders and legs aren’t working together. His release point switches between low and slingy and javelin-like. He takes too many sacks. His eyes drop when he sets off as a runner or scrambler and he’s too eager to come off throws and set off. He’s thrown nine interceptions this season, his second with Liberty after two years with Auburn. As a runner he is strong and has a nice combination of speed and power that enables him to make gains (755 rushing yards and ten touchdowns so far this year). However, he lacks the gliding suddenness of Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray to be dynamic as a game-changing running threat. He’s more of a scramble-then-go type and at 6-1 and 215lbs I worry about the hits he’ll take because he attracts contact. I’m not sold on him as a pro-prospect and think he’s very much a mid-rounder or day three pick who can come in and compete, rather than someone I’d necessarily want to try and insert as a future franchise star. Frankly, I saw a lot of Tarvaris Jackson here.

Desmond Ridder (QB, Cincinnati)
Of all the quarterbacks in this class, Ridder is the one who has delivered passes that had me sit up in my chair and think, ‘wow’. He had one downfield against Notre Dame that was inch perfect and one straight down the seam to the tight end with velocity and placement that made me think this guy could be legit. Yet the more you watch, the more you realise he falls very much into the ‘like not love’ category. There are some throws that are just off. He needs to learn to align his hips and shoulders to face the target more consistently. There are also times where you wonder what he’s processing, what he’s seen. I was surprised to see he only had six picks on the year. He’s mobile and can scramble but you wouldn’t say he has major ability to break off gains or dodge a pass rush. Still, it’s a plus that he can extend and improvise. He’s only ranked 33rd in college football for QBR. Yet as I said — he has delivered those moments of magic and he’s clearly elevating Cincinnati into legit playoff contention. The thing is — Kellen Mond had many, many more ‘wow’ moments than Ridder and he only ended up being a round three pick. I don’t think Ridder is as good as Mond and currently I would say round three is his absolute ceiling with a placing in rounds four or five perhaps more likely. There’s something there — whether you’re able to bring it out enough for him to be a starting NFL quarterback is the question.

Matt Corral (QB, Ole Miss)
There are certain offensive schemes you just can’t trust. Lane Kiffin’s is right up there. The extreme spread nature of it and the way he draws up plays is impressive purely in terms of how he challenges opponents at the college level. He manufactures points, production and winning teams and what he’s doing at Ole Miss deserves more credit than he’s getting, given the state of the team when he took over. However, it’s not much of a scheme for judging quarterback prospects. Everything is easy. Corral will be replaced next season and the production will likely remain. It reminds me of the Oklahoma State offense — which churned out QB’s year after year, none of which went on to amount to anything in the pro’s. Corral lacks defining qualities in terms of arm strength, size, the ability to throw with anticipation, to read progressions. He executes the offense as he’s instructed to and that’s great. But I can’t sit here and say this 6-0, 200lbs quarterback is destined to be anything at the next level. He simply isn’t throwing difficult passes, he’s not showing us anything we need to see to judge him as a pro prospect. He doesn’t stand out physically in any way to compensate for the fact he isn’t really being challenged mentally. There’s just nothing really to get excited about.

Carson Strong (QB, Nevada)
I keep seeing people post videos on twitter of Strong completing passes with accompanying text declaring he’s done something outstanding. And most of the time I just think, ‘heh?’. Strong looks decidedly average to me. People wax lyrical about his arm strength but it doesn’t seem particularly amazing. I think his accuracy is very inconsistent, shown up by the fact he’s only 55th in college football for QBR. He’s not elusive or able to extend plays and is no threat as a scrambler. He’s a pocket passer who looks very much like a mid-round type at best. Against California — hardly a testing opponent in 2021 — he was way off in the red zone and frequently forced dangerous passes into tight windows. When he senses pressure all he can do is toss it up because he’s a statue in the backfield. If you give him a clean pocket and time he’ll launch into nice windows and make plays. How often do you get that luxury in the NFL? Throwing on the move is laboured and challenging. I can’t even imagine him running play action and boot legs with ease. He suffered a serious knee injury in High School and still wears a chunky brace.

Spencer Rattler (QB, Oklahoma)
It’s increasingly likely he won’t declare after his benching at Oklahoma. Rattler appears destined to transfer and have another go in 2022. Why was he benched? Too many reckless, careless throws where he trusted his arm and made bonehead decisions. There isn’t a double or triple coverage look he hasn’t thrown at. Rattler has some of the qualities NFL teams admire these days. He’s a skilled thrower on the run and can launch the football from different throwing angles. He’s creative and has ample arm strength. Yet at the next level he’ll be a liability — a turnover machine — unless he can vastly improve his decision making and ability to read coverages to make proper decisions so that his talent can be harnessed correctly.

Sam Howell (QB, North Carolina)
Have you ever thought what it’d be like to watch Carson Palmer run 17 quarterback draws in a game? Then throw on a North Carolina game and watch Howell show you how it’s done. There is simply nothing remarkable about Howell’s game. He’s stocky and tries to do too much with his legs. His arm strength is fine but his accuracy just doesn’t cut the mustard. His downfield throws are hit and miss and without UNC’s brilliant running duo from a year ago, he’s been left a bit exposed as his completion percentage has dipped and his turnovers have increased. He has not elevated his team enough. He just looks average, really. A player who has been promoted beyond his capabilities simply because he started as a true freshman and gained a degree of early-career hype.

I’d actually be more prepared to build a case for Tanner McKee than the names above, despite Stanford’s awful season. McKee, like Davis Mills before him, has shown technical qualities within a struggling team. Also like Davis, I think with more playing experience he could become a useful player.

As noted recently, 30 quarterbacks were drafted between 2013-2020. Of that group, you can argue eight truly justified the picks used on them.

That’s a 26% success rate. Or in other words, history says you’ve got a 74% chance of making a bad investment at quarterback in the first two rounds.

I can’t say any of this group appear to be on a trajectory to join the list of success stories. This entire class reminds me of the 2013 group. Weak at the top and the first quarterback taken was Geno Smith #39 overall.

Sadly, I could see whichever quarterback is taken first among this group having a very similar career to Smith.

If given the choice between this bunch and calling Minnesota to see whether they’d be willing to do business for Kellen Mond — I’d probably pick Mond.

Alas — I fear I’ll be spending most of the next three months trying to write pro’s and con’s for the 2022 quarterback group — while contemplating a potential camp battle with Trubisky or someone else.

I sense this is heading one way with Wilson — regardless of the future of Carroll in Seattle. If the franchise wishes to build around him for the next 8-10 years, they’ll need to make that very clear and recruit him into the project. It’s starting to feel very much like Wilson will believe a fresh start is required and I imagine he will have his eyes fixed firmly in the direction of Sean Payton and the New Orleans Saints.

I just hope that the powers that be within Seahawks ownership are ready and have a plan to avoid this franchise turning into a shambles.

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  1. hobro

    How convinced are you that the Seahawks under new management could put together a Superbowl-contending team with Wilson at quarterback? Myself, I’m sceptical. The team currently has $44 million in effective cap space next year according to OTC and they could generate another ~$17 million by dumping Bobby Wagner, but they would have to replace a lot of mediocre players to make a serious run at the NFC championship.

    Meanwhile, it seems to my very amateur eye that Wilson’s best days are behind him. He’s better than he used to be in some respects – he’s much more willing to throw the ball away to avoid a loss, for example – but he’s no longer much of a run threat and he’s still reluctant to throw over the middle or take the short gains offered by check downs and slants.

    If you think that a rebuilt and revitalized team with Wilson at quarterback would have a 25 per cent or better chance of winning the NFC, that’s probably the route to go. But 25 per cent is a high bar; in September, the only team that Las Vegas saw as having odds that high were the Chiefs.

    • Rob Staton

      Packers went from six win seasons to 13-3 seasons and NFC Championship games by changing coach and prioritising the right positions

      It can be done

    • cha

      There is no way the franchise would boot Pete Carroll and maybe John Schneider in favor of building around Russell Wilson and not get a commitment from Russ on an extension.

      Depending on how aggressive they want to get, they could take a significant chunk of his $37m cap hit next year, push it out and open up cap room to turbo charge the reset.

      • GerryG

        Firing a coach, a GM, getting new ones, and extending a QB, all within ~6 weeks (?) maximum time I would guess is something that could only be done by fine-tuned ownership with rock star leadership. That’s a massive undertaking.

        We have an ownership group led by someone who inherited it, and is already dealing with a mess with the other team they own.

        Hate to say it, but we are kinda F*#ked

        • cha

          I don’t agree with your timeline.

          Rob laid out in the article the possibility of the process starting well before the season is over.

          And a Russ extension could be done in the summer, and the room used for a fall trade or an OBJ type pickup.

          • GerryG

            Yeah if they started now they would have more time.

            I kind of disagree on the Russ extension though, because they kind of need to get it before he demands to leave town.

            I’m all for them starting now and being wrong!

    • Jordan E

      Whats with all the hate on Wagner? Hes still been solid for the most part. His PFF is still top notch right? Are we prepared to replace him with Barton & Brooks? Or some vet linebacker for $10-12 million? Hopefully not. Keep Bobby! MLBs have long careers too.

      • Roy Batty

        It’s not hate, it’s simple accounting.

        Bobby’s cap hit next year is $20.35 million. No inside linebacker is worth that. They just aren’t. That’s money well spent on a dominant DE, DT or elite corner. They save $16.6 million by trading him, and get a pick in return.

        His total tackles are nice to look at on the stat sheet, but how many are 5,6,7 or more yards down field? Again, pretty stat line, but unless the majority of those numbers are from tackles at or near the line of scrimmage, they don’t justify that cap hit. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren’t. It still doesn’t make the huge price tag in 2022 worth it. Brooks’s natural position is middle linebacker. He lead all tacklers on Sunday. That’s quite telling.

        Never equate the willingness to unload a massive cap hit as a sign of disrespect toward that player. If Bobby signed a team friendly extension, I would be more than happy to keep him. There’s just no way he will. He doesn’t need to. If the Hawks get no trade partners, they will release him. The timing doesn’t matter since his dead money stays the same no matter when or how they part ways. He would quickly find a suitor with a good contract, especially a team needing leadership on defense and in the locker room. There are more than a few of them in the league right now.

        • Jordan E

          Interesting. For me, I think Bobby is still worth that contract. Defensive players are getting paid now. He is def worth getting paid that versus Jamal Adams. I see the Hawks signing 2 lesser players then one Bobby Wagner. You can argue that Bobby is still critical to the success of the defense. The defense played a strong game against GB. I think you keep Bobby at least for one more year.

          And thats unrealistic… Come on. Players nowadays take it a sign of disrespect if they are not the highest paid in the league. Wanting to unload their deal and move on from them would be seen as disrespect. It’s not like Bobby is playing as bad as D. Brown right now. As you said, Bobby is a leader. He is a important part of the defense.

  2. Starhawk29

    There was an article by Connor Orr of SI that I read today talking about Russ moving on, but he had no mention of Carroll leaving. This is the problem right now, it feels a bit as if Carroll is untouchable. I can’t stand the thought of losing the only HoF QB this team has ever had. Even if we somehow got Trevor Lawrence I’d worry.

    It is now fact that the hardest thing to do in the NFL is find a franchise QB. Finding a competent coach? Far easier. I’m not interested in arguing about Russ’s effectiveness yesterday, he played poorly, but his team did him no favors.

    It is quite heartening that you see the same things I do in this draft class. Like you, I keep waiting for Ridder to take that next step. Hes my favorite of this group as I’ve watched him quite a bit, and yet I’d agree that I’d rather have Mond right now. I really want to see cincy in the cfp, mostly to see how he performs. If he elevates as he did against Georgia last year, I’d be a bit more sold. Howell reminds of Trubisky, occasionally shows you something but is mostly a college QB. Pickett I haven’t watched yet.

    Overall, this is the hardest thing to do in the league. Dumping the franchise GOAT for a lottery ticket seems like gross mismanagement to me.

    • Rob Staton

      Let me guess, that article talks about how refreshing it would be to move on from Wilson and start again —- but makes no mention of who replaces him, how they go about rebuilding, what’s actually available in the 2022 draft, that they actually have to turn those picks into good players and there’s no acknowledgement that moving on from RW could turn you into the Dolphins or Broncos or Lions etc?

  3. Starhawk29

    It was a bit of that, yes, but also more of Russ’s perspective (i.e. he’s gone). Basically saying he shouldn’t want to be here, and the value is “higher than ever”. No mention of the coaching or Carroll though.

    • Starhawk29

      Meant as a reply to above

  4. Kyle

    I think we have a lot more wanking to go before we hit peak, unfortunately. This ownership group appears to be headless and drifting. To speak directly to Russell and court him, or to come up with a clear plan and accountability, hasn’t seemed to be within the realm of possible so far.

    Brian at HawkBlogger praised the defense after the Packers and indicated he’d be willing to think about seeing Russell go and let Pete stay on. I respect his opinion, as I do Rob’s, as both guys know this team inside out. That suggests to me there’s no easy answer.

    • Big Mike

      Pete Carroll stay and Russ leave because the D is improved? Oh my God, these people don’t see the obvious in front of their face. Even Pete himself said flat out he’d not have been here nearly as long without Russ. What more do people need to get it?

      • Rob Staton

        It’s OK

        We can live with the annual process of the defense being abject at a record pace for half a season because eventually Petey will work out

        Just in time for Mitch Trubisky to lead a playoff run

        • RugbyLock

          This is soo sad…

          And too likely to be so true… sigh… 90s Seahawks “Football” here we come…

          ah well, at least NFL reply has the condensed games…

      • pdway

        I’d say this much – it’s an interesting counter-point, and one that did make me stop and realize something – – at this point in his career, Wilson does bring some baggage. That’s baggage in the form of insisting on a lot of input into player personnel, coaching personnel, and offensive game-planning, and without a ton of track record to show that he’s especially great at any of those things.

        I’m still very much in the camp, that it’s just too hard and too uncertain to replace a top-tier QB, so if the choice is Pete or Russell, it’s an easy one, esp given the decreased efficacy of the Carroll regime. But there were some points in the hawkblogger piece that resonated for me.

    • Rob Staton

      I’d venture that some answers are easier than others to attain…

    • cha

      His premise that Pete has decided to go away from the running game just to keep Russ happy is extremely hard to buy.

      It makes it much easier to back moving on from Russ instead of Pete if you view Russ as someone who is so hungry for stats he blackmailed/wrenched the Head Coach and GM out of their preferred style of play.

      For me, I can’t imagine Russ being angry at only making 20-25 throws a game when the running game is clicking and the defense is consistently passable, even good.

      • Rob Staton

        They barely ran in the first half vs Pitt and didn’t really commit to the run until half time against NO

        This ‘not running to appease Russ’ hunch is wide of the mark

        • cha

          I’m sure Russ would have been upset with the Jonathan Taylor pick….cough…

          • Big Mike


      • J.P.

        20-25 pass attempts a game is game manager territory. Wilson is never gonna buy into that in the long haul even if its the best course of action. That’s what Pete Carroll already wants for him.

        He wants those MVPs and he’s indicated as much, it’s because it all goes into this plan of becoming known as the greatest to do it. He’s talked about this stuff numerous times.

        He has the Super Bowl, just like Brees and Big Ben, but like those guys, he’s not a multiple time MVP winner like Brady or Rodgers.

        How can you be known as the best when you’ve never been recognized as the best at any point in your career? You’re just great, not the greatest.

        Wilson wants to throw the ball 30-40 times a game like Patrick Mahomes or Tom Brady when they were winning them. These are the guys competing for MVPs by season end. Lamar won one, but he’s a very unique specimen.

  5. Starhawk29

    Not to keep railing, but we also have to remember that even the best QBs are human. They have bad days, even seasons. Mahomes has been terrible at times. Brady lost to the WFT and threw two ints. Josh Allen got crapped on by the Jags. Aaron Rodgers was way off yesterday. Lamar lost to the dolphins. Russ played subpar with a SURGICALLT REPAIRED FINGER that clearly wasn’t right. His accuracy, decision making, and timing were all totally off. It happens. He also has played games where he posted a perfect passer rating. We know he will be closer to the latter than the former (see his career passer rating).

    • Big Mike

      Way too much logic in this post. Please refrain from this and start posting based on emotion and pre-determined dislike of Russell Wilson cuz………..well………..um……….does it matter why?

      • Big Mike

        And btw you’re right, Mahomes has been shit this year until last night LEADING THE NFL IN INTERCEPTIONS. Wonder how many fans in KC were clamoring for him to be traded before the game last night.

        • Big Mike

          And does anyone remember the great Brady’s first half vs. GB in the NFCCG last year? He threw one or 2 picks but his defense kept him in the game until he righted himself and eventually found a way to get points while his D continued to outplay Rodgers and the GB offense.

  6. EP

    I will admit that I am a bit of a “plastic fan” when it comes to the Seahawks. It’s not my primary sport but I have really enjoyed watching and following the Seahawks throughout the Pete Carroll era. This season has been tough and my interest is dwindling. I can confidently say that if Pete Carroll remains and Russ walks, I will not be watching the Seahawks games next year. Yes I will follow at a distance but I simply cannot endure a rebuild led by a man who is too old for the league. While we may struggle with a new Head Coach, I would much rather watch Russell Wilson airing it out and scrapping for wins than endure the punt focused offence of another Carroll led team.

    • Paul Cook

      Let’s not say PC’s too old for the league when Belichek is the same age and is now undergoing what appears to be a successful rebuild after Brady’s departure in one year’s time. It’s not about Carroll’s age. It’s about his stubborn inability to change and evolve when it’s necessary to do so…amongst other things.

  7. Andrew M

    At this point anybody who advocates for trading Wilson should also be suggesting a realistic QB scenario moving forward. I get the feeling there are a lot of fans who are taking the position for granted because Wilson was found, almost by accident, in the third round. Keep in mind that Matt Flynn was supposed to start that year. Seahawks hit the lottery with the pick, and the odds of hitting the lottery again are so slim it isn’t really worth pondering. With Russ there are building blocks on the roster already: DK, Lockett, Damien Lewis (back at RG), Taylor, Tre Brown, Diggs. They need a coaching staff that can work with Wilson and maximize the things he does well. We haven’t had that ever.

    • Big Mike

      “At this point anybody who advocates for trading Wilson should also be suggesting a realistic QB scenario moving forward”

      Now there’s an idea based on logic and common sense. Novel approach. The key word there is “realistic”.

    • Andrew M

      The nonexistent ownership has got to be a huge factor driving anxiety with the fan base. Nobody has any idea what she is thinking, or what her inclinations might be. But I am seeing Seahawks tickets cheaper now than they have been in almost a decade. Gotta think the value of those tickets could get Jody to take a look at what is going on, if nothing else does.

      • Rob Staton

        Would she even know?

        I mean, we have no idea how invested she is. She could be pouring over the analytics on a Sunday, looking at the commercial side of the team and discussing everything.

        Or she could be totally oblivious. For all we know, she might not even watch all of the games.

        She’s inherited a team. It’s a weird situation and without any intimate knowledge of how she operates, we can only guess.

        She might not even be that much of a football person for all we know. Or she could be totally on it.


        • Andrew M

          Nobody knows. Has she even been to a game? I don’t recall ever seeing camera footage of her in attendance.

      • Matthew

        She’s worth BILLIONS, and the franchises value goes up every year regardless of the ticket revenue. I’d guess the team is just a place of stored value she can one day turn into capital.

    • BobbyK

      That’s the thing. Losers complain but never have a solution. They just complain how this or that should be done with no accountability on their part.

      Get rid of Russ is a fine point. I get it. I’m frustrated, too. But what happens when he’s gone? Who’s going to play QB? Who can the team sign? Who can the team draft? There is nobody who will be available as a free agent that will be much better than Tarvaris Jackson. There appears nobody to draft. If your answer is Trubinsky, Fitzmagic, Foles, or whoever else will be free… you’re basically giving the season away. You’re not trying to win. You say you are, but you’re really not. There haven’t been many teams in NFL history like the Ravens were where they could take a garbage QB and be so good that they could still win a Super Bowl. That was a historic effort, not the norm.

      All I can think of without Russ is something like:

      1. Since all FA QBs suck – you try a scenario where you actually sign two and split reps on the game. Two different QBs with unique skill sets. Let both play. Maybe you get a combo of Mariotta/Dalton or Foles/Bridgewater. None of them are appealing, but none of those guys on their own are capable of getting to a Super Bowl without Ray Lewis and that Defense in their heyday.

      2. Maybe the Jags want to clean house. Maybe we could get Lawrence for him somehow if the owner wants to win now. I can’t imagine Russ wanting to go there, but if they hire an offensive HC it’s possible he would. This is a longshot but times are different now than they were pre-draft. I doubt the Patriots would trade anyone in that draft class anymore for Mac Jones. Think Trey Lance still goes #3 overall if a redraft was tomorrow?

      3. The only capable QB to be gotten for Wilson is a Kirk Cousins type deal. He’s decent, but no Wilson in the crunch. The Seahawks would definitely need more in this deal.

      Last year one of the best solutions seemed to be Sam Darnold. We saw what has happened there.

      Be careful for what you wish for.

    • hobro

      You make a good point in saying that “anybody who advocates for trading Wilson should also be suggesting a realistic QB scenario moving forward.” Equally, though, anybody who advocates keeping Wilson should also be suggesting a realistic scenario for rebuilding the team around Wilson.

      I can’t do either, but here’s some unpleasant arithmetic. If the team cut Wagner, they’d have about $60 million in cap space. They’d need to extend Wilson and add a quality left tackle, guard, center, running back and edge rusher, and probably some strength in the center of the defensive line as well. They’ll also need money to extend DK and Diggs. Wilson will want at least a $10 million APY increase. The market for high-quality left tackles is around $20 million APY. Edge rushers go for $15 million and up. Add in the draft class, practice squad and injury replacements and you’ve exhausted the available cap space, leaving guard, center, running back and interior defensive line to be addressed in a draft where they don’t have a number 1 pick.

      Oh, and have a look on OTC at next year’s free agent left tackles and edge rushers. It’s not inspiring.

      If there are people who have a strategy to make this work, and there probably are, I’d like to know what it is.

      • Rob Staton

        Equally, though, anybody who advocates keeping Wilson should also be suggesting a realistic scenario for rebuilding the team around Wilson.

        Where’ve you been for the last two months?

        It’s all we’ve talked about

        • hobro

          Rob, I never miss a post on SDB or OTC. My high-level takeaways from SDB over the past two months have been:

          1. Pete has to go. I think so too, for all the reasons you’ve mentioned plus the fact that he’s just a year older than me and I know first hand what age does to people (LPT: don’t get old).

          2. The Seahawks should have added OBJ. I didn’t think so and still don’t, but I felt less strongly about it after reading your arguments.

          The problem is that I don’t think the Seahawks are just a player or two away from being serious contenders, and they don’t have the financial or draft capital to address their weaknesses. I hope I’m wrong and I’d love to see a plausible roster strategy that shows it.

          • 12th chuck

            getting OBJ was at the very least showing Wilson that you want him to be here after this year, as a message. You can never have tooo many weapons, DK has been playing injured. Lockett or DK miss any games, there is even a worse offense than we have seen up tp this point, and I don’t want to think how bad that would be

          • Andrew M

            This team has talent. Not across the board talent but they have significant guys at key positions that aren’t being utilized. Or maybe I should say utilized correctly. The biggest issue is scheme, and in-game decisions, and that’s all on the coaching. The mess that we see every week could look a lot different if the coaches knew had to use the chess pieces they have.

          • Scot04

            Rob did lay out a pretty reasonable way to turn around the team quickly awhile back. Maybe you accidentally passed over it.
            It’s definitely a plausible roster strategy though.
            You can do alot with near 60M and 8 picks. 5 in the 1st 4 rounds. Definitely add more than just a player or 2.

    • no frickin clue

      I would imagine that many of the folks who visit this site are very keen on the NFL draft (in addition to being Seahawks fans). Some of those fans may fancy themselves amateur talent sleuths, capable of spotting that diamond in the rough that others did not. So the idea of trading players, even great players, for a massive haul of picks might have a catnip-like quality to it. It starts the engine running on mock drafts, trade-downs for more picks, etc..

      I would rather keep Russ. I figure that he could give us at least 5-6 more years of high-quality QB play. Trading him – especially this year – probably means wandering a desert of barren QB play, which will almost certainly get us nowhere.

  8. pdway

    “In the meantime, Allen’s other great sporting venture — the Portland Trailblazers — appear to be stuck in an eerily similar malaise with an equally uncertain future for their star player.:

    interesting flag…hadn’t made that connection before. really is a very similar situation.

    • Big Mike

      Those of us that live in the Portland metro area are all too aware of it.

      • Big Mike

        And btw, the endless first or 2nd round playoff exits for the Blazers (sound familiar?) have worn thin on the fanbase because ticket sales are definitely lagging.

    • GoHawks5151

      My circle of friends talk about exactly this all the time. It’s insane to think about. Both teams have a legit top 10 player in their game that wants management to step up and put him in a position to chase a title. Both are great in the community and pretty selfless. Both have a talented supporting cast with glaring weaknesses. Both have managements that refuse to acknowledge their shortcomings or be held accountable for their performance. They are also basically running their own show unsupervised. Both stars are contemplating leaving town.

      Lillard got his coaching change and they are a work in progress. I hope Russ gets his

    • Jordan E

      Oh man. And Portland is on the verge of losing D. Lillard like every year.

  9. pdway

    some interesting data/observations in here –


    • Paul Cook

      Just think Brady to Edelman on those crossing routes. Over and over again.

  10. cha

    Next Gen Stats
    Nov 14
    The Packers were able to get pressure without blitzing, generating 13 pressures and 3 sacks with four-or-fewer pass rushers (37.1% pressure rate).

    Russell Wilson vs Non-Blitzes
    Small blue diamond 15/32, 145 yards, 2 INT (-8.8% CPOE)
    Small blue diamond -20.8 pass EPA (six-year low)

    • 12th chuck

      that is beyond terrible, of course we all know no one will get fired over that

      • Troy

        It’s because Russ holds the ball. The quick passing game is there, but he keeps waiting for the big play.

  11. Paul Cook

    I think there is at least a somewhat plausible scenario where you could get Deshaun Watson or Baker Mayfield in a some kind of a trade scenario with RW. hey aren’t horrible options from a purely talent standpoint.

    • Peter

      To what end though? One first and maybe a fourth and one of those guys for Wilson? Watson is pretty good but thus far is not near Wilson.

      • Peter

        Adendum: he has some good seasons. But possible legal troubles vs. A guy who who is dorky but has played and played at a high level for a decade.

        • Paul Cook

          My only point was that I could see some plausibility in some kind of a trade scenario involving RW and Watson or Mayfield that wouldn’t leave us bereft at the QB position. I’m going from the premise of if RW wants to move on that it doesn’t have to be Foles or Trubisky. And I’m not saying they’re better or even equal to RW either.

          • Big Mike

            Mayfield is not good, and I’m being kind. Watson is good but the legal issues………..

            • Paul Cook

              What if…

              a) The legal issues pass with Watson and he’s cleared to play this off season
              b) RW asks to be traded
              c) You get offered Watson and their first round pick for RW

              That doesn’t sound bad at all under the circumstances.

              As for Mayfield…you could probably get a couple of firsts round picks and have a serviceable QB on his 5th year option until you figure out what you want to do. And Mayfield is not a terrible QB. I know he’s not the #1 guy they hoped for, but not awful.

              Again, not a horrible hypothetical if RW wants to be traded.

              I’m just playong here.

              • Andrew M

                After all those “Ifs,” especially that first one, Russ has a no-trade clause so he’d have to be sold on the idea of playing for the Houston Texans.

                • Paul Cook

                  If PC stays (or even if he doesn’t) and RW wants to be traded, he’s going to have to open up the trading partner playing field. Just as he has discretion about where he chooses to go, the Hawks have discretion as to whether they trade him or not.

                  • Roy Batty

                    There is no way, in any scenario, where Russell Wilson forces his way out of Seattle and OK’s a trade to the putrid dumpster fire that is occurring in Houston.

                    If people are down on the Hawks this season, go take a look at some commentary on the Houston fan sites. O’Brien left that team with such a depleted reservoir of options that it is destroying evrything that JJ Watt and Watson were attempting to build around.

                    On top of O’Brien’s blatant ineptitude, you have a horrendous ownership situation.

                    No top tier QB will touch that organization for years to come.

              • Scot04

                If I’m Watson I invoke my no trade clause; and say I’m not playing for a PC offense.

        • Jordan E

          Yeah was gonna say Watson is a beast. Only problem is the legal issues. Theres no way that is possible though. Remember Wilson has a no trade clause. He will want to go to a winner. Tua may be the best potential option or Darnold 😬

          Aside from that were signing transition QB. Might as well get Fitzmagic and air it out to Tyler & DK!

    • pdway

      was listening to Simmons podcast earlier – and it was raised that the Jets, Giants, and Eagles all have multiple first round picks in the upcoming draft, and also all have somewhat unsettled QB positions (arguable for Jets, depending on what you think of their Wilson) – – point being, if you were ever going to try and move your franchise QB, this might be the window to do it.

      I’m really not sure how it plays out. If the Hawks rally, finish something like 9-8 and make the playoffs, I could see Carroll staying. A losing record and a playoff miss, makes his exit a lot more likely in my mind.

      • Scot04

        If Wilson asks for a trade it still comes down to where he wants to go. Not like Seahawks are going to get him to agree to a list of teams they’d trade him to.
        I’m guessing you would want their young QBs and their 2 top 1sts from all 3 of those teams.
        While I’m sure JS would do that, i can’t see Wilson going.

  12. ShowMeYourHawk

    My main concern is that Pete’s hubris won’t allow him to see the writing on the wall. It’s likely that when this season has FULLY bottomed out, the lack of accountability from the top will permit him the chance to “end on a high note” next season. Unless new ownership (or, at the very least, a replacement for Chuck Arnold) forces Pete out (or sideways, allowing him to save face), we’ll lose Russ. It’s possible he’s had enough at this point and we lose him, regardless.

    It’s never too early to look at the potential QB class for 2023, right? 😵‍💫

    • Scot04

      Rob already said 2022 & 2023 are poor QB drafts unless someone comes out of nowhere.

      • ShowMeYourHawk

        Granted. Still doesn’t preclude a shallow dive into potential options.

  13. Salemhawk

    I wouldn’t mind a change at QB but I’m guessing they’ll trade Metcalf before they trade Wilson. A WR seems easier to replace.

  14. uptop

    Kyle, be like your father, get burned by the niners and dominate with the Seahawks. I’d love to have a coach that has McVay’s number.

    • Big Mike

      Niners beat the Rams, Rams beat us ands we beat the Niners. It’s very strange.

      • Andrew M

        Maybe Pete should have poached a coordinator from Santa Clara. Somehow the Niners consistently own the Rams.

        • Roy Batty

          The Niners front 4 have been substantially better than the toothless Seattle pass rush for years now.

          Its not magic. It’s getting to the QB on a regular basis. Something Seattle hasn’t done.

  15. Norman

    LA “Dream Team” Rams

  16. GoHawks5151

    Different team when Kittle is right. Von is old …


  17. GaiusMarius

    When we think of what happens, what comes next there are three enormous intangibles…

    1. The mystery of ownership. I won’t go into it much, but we really don’t know how this ownership works or how soon it might sell. It has a delegation-heavy feel to it.

    2. Will Carroll really retire? I truly hope so because that is the only way that Wilson is a Seahawk next season barring some miraculous turn around I see little chance for. I’ve seen the same body language commented on on this blog and it seems obvious he comes across as not having a good time and being done.

    3. Will Wilson want to stay? Wilson isn’t happy. He hasn’t been happy. He toyed with bolting last year and the Seahawks have shown him another season of futility. Carroll and Schneider might leave and ownership even offer Wilson full buy-in on hiring, etc. But even with all of that Wilson could say “no thanks” and that it’s time for a change of scenery. He may not have faith that the Seahawks can do what Green Bay did after a similar change.

    I’ve seen the scenarios thrown out where we zip back into serious contention with new management, coaching and a reinvigorated Wilson. I think we should similarly consider how the Seahawks respond if Wilson wants out no matter what. At that point you are likely running the next 1 to 2 seasons with a transition QB. You get as many first round picks as you can for Wilson and that’s not only for 2022, but also for 2023. I’m not even sure that we draft a QB in 2022 given how poor the class is and you’re into a multi-year rebuild.

  18. Jordan E

    Wow. Just realized were one game ahead of the Jags. How is Seattle media not livid about how bad the Hawks are right now?

    • Ashish

      He should jump from the bridge or do some mental exercise. Tie him to Tyler Lockett next off-season so he can learn to behave

    • Roy Batty

      Just wait, Rob. As soon as Pete retires, Salk will suddenly get a spine and be all over the new regime.

  19. ChaseH

    Rob, you’re not giving the 2013 QB class enough credit! The Bills took the amazing EJ Manuel at 16 😬

  20. MattyB

    going to use Arsenal FC and Manchester United as current examples of how easy it is for an organization to hold onto a previous successful coach without considering the future. in both cases the HeadCoach had way to much influence towards the end and both owners run the organization from a distance and with no feeling/joy/determination that a hands-on owner does.

    very similar to Seattle
    Head Coach should move on
    No owners to determine this and push on in a measured way.

    both of those soccer teams have fallen behind the pace and are playing catch up. Man U are in complete and what seems a never ending transition due to a poor behind the scenes structure to move the club forward and Arsenal looks as if they are making small progress but only after Josh Kroenke has taken on a more meaningful role.

    Seattle need to act this off season with the ownership or (i feel) its 10 yes TEN years of struggle and lets not forget the NFC West has forward thinking organizations that are not afraid to make strong/big decisions.

    fingers crossed the current owners see this and are already looking at selling

    • Sneekes

      That is an excellent observation. The lack of ownership emotional investment and a retiring long-standing coach is a perfect storm.

  21. Sea Mode

    Just read an article narrating the whole miraculous recovery of RW, which flatly and sarcastically ended with this:

    The Seahawks lost to the Green Bay Packers today, 17–0. Wilson went 20-for-40 for 161 yards and two interceptions. His passer rating was 39.7. Had all 40 of his attempts hit the turf, his passer rating would’ve been 39.6.

    Not trying to deflect any blame from Pete here, but ouch.

  22. Sea Mode



    • 12th chuck

      brutal and funny, and then sad

  23. Rob Staton

    This is what I don’t get with draft media.

    Here’s Todd McShay on Kenny Pickett:

    “His arm strength and pocket mobility are average areas in his game, but his toughness in the pocket, fast eyes on progressions and awareness in holding the safety stand out.”

    I would say his pocket mobility is very good and his inability to trust reads and make quick decisions is a big issue.

    • Gross MaToast

      I know one safety he couldn’t hold with his awareness, a safety he could drill in the face with the football from 20 yards away and that safety would never see it coming. I won’t say the safety’s name so as not to embarrass him, but it rhymes with Flamal Badams. “Flamal” likes coffee, France, and pointing at open receivers running across the field – particularly if they aren’t his responsibility, which is a rarity.

      The obvious answer to post-RW is, unfortunately, Watson. He’s the only guy who’s available and worth having. I suspect that his transgressions will be forgiven with his first touchdown pass. People cheered Lawrence Phillips, for god’s sake.

      The only way any of this matters is if Pete leaves. If he stays, might as well be Trubisky.

      I’d like to say this about Mitch Trubisky:

      • Rob Staton

        I love your posts

        • Gross MaToast

          Thanks for all the great reads over the years. You should have a byline in the Seattle Times in place of unnamed others.

          Also, I want to make clear that, with Watson, I wasn’t attempting to formulate a Perversions Forgiven to Touchdown Ratio, although I suspect it might be a bit higher on the forgiven side than we suspect. A three touchdown game means we forget he was ever a Texan. Personally, I’m appalled and hope that owner Robert Kraft hasn’t been a poor role model for players.

          • Space Chief

            I think the fans should put to bed the idea of acquiring Watson. Even if he replaces Russ this won’t massage the fears of the team getting better in the future because of his legal issues.

            Even if the team makes a trade for him, he’ll be harassed in the pocket due to our offensive line. When he’ll have a bad game, he’ll be assaulted with boos from the fans, making them pine for Russ again.

            After that, fans will have to grope with the idea of wanting Russ back and not DeShaun. What fans need is a more well-oiled plan for the future.

      • Sea Mode

        I second that thought about Trubisky, lol

  24. bv eburg

    In the comments above it was asked to provide solutions so here is a possible scenario if Pete stays and Russ is traded.
    As of today Philly has picks 5, 10 and 15 in the first round + Gardner Minshew on the bench. Would Pete/John trade Russ for those? Does Russ need to accept this trade?
    The team could be reset (if pete/john don’t blow it) back to his core beliefs with this much draft capitol and cap space. They could go all in on the trenches because their skill players are good, go back to game manager in Minshew and try and grind out wins.

    I have been off the Pete Carrol bandwagon for about 4 years so really don’t trust he could pull it off but it is a scenario he might see working.

    • Rob Staton

      Having studied this class as I have, I am not convinced you would get what you need from those picks.

      #5 might get you a guy like Derek Stingley. Might. He could easily go top-three. Thibodeaux will be the #1 pick.

      There isn’t a top-level offensive tackle.

      There is no QB worth having there.

      To me you’d simply be acquiring three top-15 picks in the worst draft in years, with the smallest number of legit first round picks in years, all for the pleasure of removing your franchise QB.

      • bv eburg

        Was interested in your thoughts on the upcoming class in the trenches. Would there be enough at 5,10, and 15 (plus what will be an early 2nd native) combined with free agents to completely overhaul both lines? Possibly trade some of those picks for veteran lineman?
        I don’t have a lot of faith in pete/john to draft and develop as it is any more. But if we were confident it’s a plan that could work.

        • Rob Staton

          The only way you could do it is by getting #1 to select Thibodeaux, then being in the top-10 to guarantee the best tackle which is TBD’d.

          And even then you’re without a top QB.

          So what are you really gaining? The Lions have plenty of high picks on their lines. They are winless.

      • BobbyK

        Think this will be as bad as 2009? Or just the worse class since then – but not quite that bad?

        • Rob Staton

          Anything is on the table

          I’m hesitant to make any definitive statement until we see the combine. After all, if a whole bunch of amazing, unique, ‘untapped potential’ athletes emerge then who knows how this pans out?

          But right now it looks like an appalling class at the top end with some potential for depth later on

  25. GlazeOne

    I don’t think we have enough information to correctly diagnose where the faults lay, and that is 100% because of Pete’s #1 rule; protect the team. We do not get insight into what calls are being made and who called them. How many plays ran were what the OC called? How often is the play being changed by Pete? By Russ? We know that, starting in 2015, Pete started giving Russ a lot more freedom to audible. Is it Russ that keeps going back to the plays he’s comfortable with, or is it just a stale offense?

    Now, ignoring the poor drafting, which is another topic, I constantly see fans complain about the lack of talent and/or blue chip players. Given that we are largely a team of mid-tier players, especially on defense, isn’t that a sign of good coaching that these nobodies consistently outperform their raw talent? Sadly, the one clear place where a player is underperforming relative to their talent and ability is at QB1. That is the biggest coaching issue I see on the team. Russ has HOF level talent, but has not refined the parts of his game that are necessary to continue to compete as his athleticism fades slightly. He has the same problems today that he had in 2015, compounded by a lessor ability to escape and make plays with his feet. This is not to say that we should cut Russ or keep PC, but, if you keep Russ and dump Pete, you need a coach that can make Russ grow. It’s not an issue of the playbook, which has tons of plays for every scenario. It’s not even an issue of coaching philosophy, which Pete has shown a willingness to depart from. It’s an issue of what your QB can and is willing to run. For a new coach to be successful, they need to make improving the QB play priority 1. This is what they hired Schotty to do. He managed to do it for about 6 games. We saw better pocket presence, better use of the quick game, and fewer missed reads. Then, the wheels fell off.

    There’s no doubt that things are broken. Something needs to change. Sadly, all choices lead to bumpy roads and serious trade offs.

    • Rob Staton

      I don’t think we have enough information to correctly diagnose where the faults lay, and that is 100% because of Pete’s #1 rule; protect the team. We do not get insight into what calls are being made and who called them. How many plays ran were what the OC called? How often is the play being changed by Pete? By Russ? We know that, starting in 2015, Pete started giving Russ a lot more freedom to audible. Is it Russ that keeps going back to the plays he’s comfortable with, or is it just a stale offense?

      Not sure I agree here. The bigger issues go further than whether a plan is changed from a run to a pass.

      The issues are the poor re-setting of the roster, squandered recources, the total inability of Carroll to create the kind of team he proclaims to desire and the lack of playoff success stretching a number of years.

      • GlazeOne

        Are the post season issues an issue of coaching or execution? Like I said, the roster issues are a separate discussion and there is a lot left to be desired there. PC/JS made some questionable choices in the draft and overleveraged or overpaid trying to fill positions of need through trades and FA acquisitions. However, in comparison to the defense, the offense is loaded with quality players. DK, NoE, Duane Brown, Everett, Russ, Carson, even Gabe Jackson (not saying they are all pros, but all are above average starters). There is enough talent that we should be doing much better on that side of the ball.
        I also think you underestimate how the play calls affect the outcomes. We have had three offensive coordinators, yet the offense, 90% of the time, looks the same. It is predictable. It is the same dozen or so plays that our QB likes. When you only do 10-20 plays well and have put those on tape for 9 years, it is easy for defenses to plan against. The real question is what is the source of that predictability? I have a feeling that changing head coach wouldn’t change that much. The only constants are Pete and Russ on that offense. Pete has, at least, tried to shake up the staff to change that (depending on if you believe he is meddling in the OC’s choices).
        Interestingly, the games where we have gone the most pass heavy are the games we lose. We win far more when the runn/pass rate is under 60% pass. That’s with elite receivers like NoE and DK. That’s problematic.

        • Rob Staton

          It’s the total plan GlazeOne. The way they’ve gone about the re-set has been all wrong.

          And that’s the crux of the matter. I’m not underestimating anything in terms of playcalls. It’s just to me, that’s like complaining about the soup on the titanic as it sinks.

    • Blitzy the Clown

      It’s not even an issue of coaching philosophy, which Pete has shown a willingness to depart from.

      I’m sorry, what? Do you have some offering of proof of your assertion that Pete has shown a willingness to depart from his coaching philosophy? Because I missed it if he has.

      And, no, a one or even several game departure isn’t a real departure if he snaps back to his old ways, like he does.

      • GlazeOne

        People claim that PC is a run first, run heavy coach. We haven’t had a game in 2 years that had more than 45% run calls. In fact, over the past 2 years, we have been near the top in passing percentage. Pete has brought in 3 different OCs. He still has his conservative tendencies (punt on 4th, etc). As an exercise, tell me what Russ has improved on in his game since SB48. What has he done to improve mechanics, timing, throwing with anticipation, etc?

        • Rob Staton

          Ah, I see you’re a Carroll apologist.

          So Carroll says he wants a certain offense, doesn’t deliver that offense, sees repeated issues despite swapping out the OC multiple times and that’s all OK.

          But let’s challenge ‘how has the QB on a Hall of Fame trajectory, who has carried this team for years, improved?’

          Come on.

          Carroll: “I wouldn’t have been here as long as I have without Wilson”

          • GlazeOne

            I’m hardly a Carroll apologist, but I think he’s the best coach we’ve had, just like I believe that Russ is the best QB we’ve had. I actually feel that PC’s biggest failing has been exactly the same failing that the majority of our fan base is guilty of; not demanding more of Russ. We are all enamored but his natural talents that we excuse the repeated mistakes and shortcomings in his game. If Pete is to be fired for anything, it should be his failure to coach Russ from a gifted athlete to an MVP. Russ’s game has improved very little since his 2nd year. That’s a coaching failure. The problem is that firing Pete probably doesn’t change that. Having different OCs, QB coaches, etc hasn’t fixed it, so why would a new HC do better.

            • GlazeOne

              Also, Pete has failed if he wants a certain offense and failed to deliver. They haven’t played “Peteball” in 2 years. That have been at 60% pass or better in most of their games. Carson was averaging 12 carries in 2020 and we are running under 22 runs a game this year. If he wants a “certain style”, he’s failed to run that. I don’t know if that’s on him, or if there is some power play going on behind the scene between him and his QB, who publicly stated that he’s concerned about his legacy (stats). I fine with firing them all if they can’t work it out

              • Rob Staton

                Just stop

            • Rob Staton

              I’m hardly a Carroll apologist, but I think he’s the best coach we’ve had, just like I believe that Russ is the best QB we’ve had. I actually feel that PC’s biggest failing has been exactly the same failing that the majority of our fan base is guilty of; not demanding more of Russ

              I laughed at this.

              Carroll’s biggest failure is the entire reset.

              ‘Demanding more from Russ’ isn’t remotely close to his biggest failing.

              This is classic Carroll apologist talk. The complete and utter washing of what has gone wrong since the reset — and the quarterback who has carried this team for years ‘should’ve done more’.

              If Pete is to be fired for anything, it should be his failure to coach Russ from a gifted athlete to an MVP.

              Russell Wilson — ‘only a gifted athlete’

              Having different OCs, QB coaches, etc hasn’t fixed it, so why would a new HC do better.

              Better roster construction, different philosophy. Perhaps the problem isn’t the OC it’s the HC?

              Don’t even know why I’ve replied. You’ll just answer with more of this.

              • GlazeOne

                Ok, I’m done. If I’m a carroll apologist, than you’re a Wilson worshiper. I get he’s the best option we got. Cool. He doesn’t walk on water and is hardly carrying the team. He’s got a 33% win rate this year. Geno has a 33% win rate this year. If Russ isn’t getting 3-5 wins that Geno couldn’t, how is he carrying the team? How many games have the offense overcame a terrible defensive performance to win? Is it as many as defensive performances that gave the offense ample opportunity to win? To carry a team, you need to be the difference between winning and losing. He hasn’t been that this year. I just want russ to reach his ceiling. I don’t think he’s been pushed to that, because he has a high floor.

                • Rob Staton

                  Ok, I’m done. If I’m a carroll apologist, than you’re a Wilson worshiper.

                  The difference between you and I is I’ve broken down in great detail, in various long-read articles, the problem with Seattle’s reset and why I think change is required at the top. I’ve backed up all of my arguments, whether people choose to agree with them or not. You’ve merely stated stuff like ‘Carroll’s biggest flaw was not turning Wilson into more than a mere great athlete’ or that his biggest issue was ‘not demanding more from Wilson’. It reads like a pure attempt to have passive aggressive digs at Wilson.

                  He’s got a 33% win rate this year. Geno has a 33% win rate this year. If Russ isn’t getting 3-5 wins that Geno couldn’t, how is he carrying the team?

                  The Head Coach literally said, unprovoked, that he wouldn’t have been in Seattle as long as he has without Wilson.

                  How many games have the offense overcame a terrible defensive performance to win?

                  Were you on a space mission during the entire first half of last season?

                  To carry a team, you need to be the difference between winning and losing.

                  2015-19 and half of 2020 says Hi

                  I just want russ to reach his ceiling

                  Bloody Wilson, underachieving all these years

                  • GlazeOne

                    Your whole take can be boiled down to “when the Seahawks win, it’s Russ carrying a bad team” but, when they lose, it’s “the team and coaching are too bad for even a god, like Wilson, to overcome”

                    There’s little to back that up, other than speculation of what MIGHT happen if he were out. I see little critical analysis of RW. I have stated that his floor is higher than most QB’s ceiling and he’s the best QB we’ve had. He was great for the first 6-7 games last year, until teams took away the moon ball. Elite QBs would find a way to attack defenses differently, if they eliminate one part of the game. The games we win after that were the games that we took it off Russ’s shoulders. Those games featured under 60% passing. We didn’t win games in the second half relying on the QB to carry the load.
                    This year, we are still passing heavy… and losing. Why is it that the guy, who is carrying the team, is unable to win when his number is called 2 out of 3 plays?

                    • Rob Staton

                      No, you don’t get to ‘boil down’ my opinions expressed over two years of long-form articles to such a ridiculous, limited sentence like that.

                      You also keep ignoring the counters I’m offering, instead preferring to keep doubling down on the points I’ve already challenged as passive-aggressive downplaying of Wilson.

                      This community might not be for you if you’re going to debate that way.

  26. AlaskaHawk

    There are alot of great ideas and plans to improve the team being thrown about. But I think we have the sequence of improvements wrong.

    1. First they need to lock down a new coach and give them a contract. Rob has mentioned several coach names. Without that coach on a long term contract they will be in the same situation as searching for a new QB. People say it is easier to find a coach but that is not necessarily true if you want a great coach. They don’t grow on trees. Give the new coach a contract. While your at it, look around for a GM and see who is compatible with your new coach.

    2. The second step is firing Pete Carroll and possibly John Schneider. Alot depends on what Schneider is capable of doing moving forward.

    3. Protect Russell Wilson. You want to keep him around? Quit screwing around with the offensive line and build up a line that can block and protect him. I’ve been watching this line get worse for years. If he want’s to have high passing numbers then he needs protection. He was running for his life during the Packers game. Not all the time – but enough times. Our best lineman got knocked on his ass. Our second best got beat numerous times around the edge. It’s embarrassing and it is also the reason why Russell will leave. Fix it in the next draft. They need at least three good offensive linemen added to the team.

    This will also improve the inconsistent running game. Why haven’t they been more successful running the ball when they have used about 6 different backs? Poor blocking. It needs to be fixed.

    4. Lastly = what to do with Russell Wilson. He only has two more years on his contract. That’s about the time when some new young quarterbacks will be available in the draft. Either you retain him on another 4-6 year contract, or you draft a QB in 2023 or 2024 when the quality improves.

  27. Blitzy the Clown

    I wonder how close to a single circle is the Venn diagram for fans who (rightly) criticize the first round draft picks PC/JS, and fans who want to trade Russ for a boatload of first round picks with which PC/JS can try to rebuild the roster.

    Those two perspectives are logically incompatible.

    • Rob Staton


    • Troy

      I don’t really feel this is fair for the main reason that I would bet a large percentage of people who want to trade Russ and do a reset would want it to be done with new ownership/GM/coach.

      I do honestly think Wilson’s best days are behind him, but I also agree with Rob that unless we get Watson, then there is no doubt we would he weaker at QB without Wilson, and therefore most likely worse off as a team.

      Overall it’s just feeling like a helpless situation where it might take years and years for us to get back in contention, with no clear plan or strategy with how to get there.

      Biggest problem tho is ownership, it all flows down from there. Pete being second biggest problem.

      • Rob Staton

        I’m going to start just replying with this:


      • Peter

        How are Wilson’s best days behind him? Rodgers is amazing but in their first ten seasons Wilson played more, won more, and this season isn’t over but currently is 35 td’s behind him.

        Do i think he gets 35 td’s here in out, no. But do i think he ends up about 18 total td’s below him…yeah.

        I mean he threw 13 picks last year….and still had a 68.8 completion rate with 40 td’s. Prior to playing with a jacked up finger he was on a pace for basically the same (better actually) than last year. How are his best days behind him?

        • Troy

          You don’t see how his best days are behind him? Are you watching the games?

          Rus relies on his athletic abilities a lot (he is not a pure pocket passer aka Brady).

          He relies on his scrambling abilities to avoid pressure and keep a play alive, now you tell me, has he been getting more successful at doing this as his career has gone on, or less? To me it’s easy to see a lot more of those scrambles are turning into sacks, not big plays. That is not something that will age well if/when he continues doing it.

          A lot of this is on Wilson’s decision making tho, if he would just take what is there, and throw the ball away when appropriate, I think he would be much better at moving the chains. But that is not what Wilson is, he is a home run hitter who thinks fuck singles/doubles.

          IF Wilson were willing to change his game to be less big ball or nothing, I could see how he could still be good for a long time, but as long as he is relying on his athletic abilities and instinct in the locket, I think it’s gonna get worse and worse.

      • RIP Sonics

        Unfortunately, this seems to be the most accurate take. Things have not been the same since Paul Allen passed as Rob has eluded to. Paul Allen seems to have been the person in both the Seattle and Portland that established the culture of excellence and challenged for innovation. He was the person that challenged Pete and John to make changes to the coaching staff and roster as the LOB aged. He likely would not have allowed the Jamal Adams extension. He would have challenged the draft day decisions. I have to imagine the Russell saga would not have been a public issue with Paul Allen around. Just a bummer this is the point we have come to.
        Just have to make the best of the rollercoaster to come as a fan. When a strong leader isn’t present like Paul Allen, change is only forced when the wheel come off completely.

    • Simo

      So who is most responsible for all the poor draft picks in recent years? For quite some time we have examined the poor drafting of PC/JS, and assume it’s a joint decision to make certain picks. BUT, if Pete has the final say on who’s selected, are the terrible picks really Schneider’s fault?

      This question simply gets at the larger question of whether you would keep Schneider on after Pete is gone? I think the president of the organization and owner needs to get a straight answer to the question, “so John, did you actually select Collier, Penny, Brooks, Blair, Barton, Pocic, or did Pete?” If you like the answer, then he might stay on.

      They could ask him the same question about a few failed trades, but I’m really more concerned with the years of poor drafting.

      • Rob Staton

        Even then, to me it feels like there’s too much water under the bridge.

        Real change is needed, across the board.

    • GaiusMarius

      If we ended up in a scenario where Wilson was to be traded I definitely would NOT want Carroll and Schneider left with whatever we got for him.

    • Big Mike

      Damn Blitzy there you again with a logical argument about illogical thinking no less. Nice,

  28. BobbyK

    Hey guys, do you have any idea how awesome this is:

    We have the Jets 4th round pick and they keep losing. As it is right now, we own the 3rd overall pick in the 4th round. We have two 4th round picks! We might end up with two picks in the top 10 in the 4th round! We really ripped them off!

    I still can’t believe a team as horrible as the Jets used our #1 pick last year, our 3rd round pick last year, and their own 3rd round pick last year to move up in the draft. Don’t they know they’re the Jets – which means they suck – which means they need lots of picks to improve their forever sunken ship? At least they’ll probably screw our pick up, which is what Schneider would have probably done too – which means we need someone who will actually pick good players. That’s the biggest problem on this team… TALENT. It was obvious playing the Packers that we didn’t have enough horses to keep up with them overall, even though the defense gave it a great effort for a majority of the game.

    • cha

      That’s the biggest problem on this team… TALENT

      I don’t disagree but there’s a reasonable case to be made that coaching and gameplanning are a very, very close second place on the “problems on this team” list. They consistently have failed to properly utilize the talent they have.

      * they found a gem in Damien Lewis. Starts week one of his rookie year and you could see him progressing throughout the season into a 10-year starter at RG. Nope, let’s move him to LG so we can accommodate a veteran who has played both sides.

      * Benson Mayowa has consistently proven he’s a valuable part-time player in the pass rush game, but when he is asked to do more than 20-25 snaps per game, his production nosedives and he gets hurt. They’ve got promising young bucks who are on rookie contracts and hungry for more work. Nope, let’s keep them from developing and give Mayowa 50-60% of snaps. Oh, and let’s drop him in coverage on running backs and slot receivers at times too.

      * The front office spends a fortune in draft picks for a strong safety, essentially redefining what your defense calls for in the position. You’ve got an exciting multi-use weapon to cause all kinds of problems for offenses. Nope, let’s just stick him on the edge, rush our $18m middle linebacker to draw coverage to free him up time and time and time again.

      * Okay, let’s call 2020 a mulligan and work that guy into the defense for 2021. Let’s get crafty and creative and deploy our $70m weapon all over the field. Nope, let’s cut his blitzes in half and have him do…I can’t even find the right words to describe what he does.

      * Your free agent running back has clearly beaten out the battered first round pick for a gameday spot on the roster. Nope, let’s healthy scratch him and give that talented mess yet another try. Okay, this guy obviously is a slash runner who has speed on the edges, not a physical dominator, so let’s give him some chances to succeed. Nope, let’s battering-ram into the middle of a stacked box.

      * The front office has given you expensive tight ends. Gives you all kinds of options for short creative checkdowns and passes to keep the chains moving. Nope, let’s ignore them for weeks on end, and when asked about them, we’ll talk about their run blocking and then pivot to their special teams value.

      * Our franchise QB gets hurt. Thankfully the guy the coaching staff has lobbied to have on the roster for years is able to step in. Okay. He’s not our top guy, but he’s who we got and we still have two amazing wide receivers and some tight ends to work with. We don’t have to be completely crippled. Nope, they handcuff Geno one week in a tight loss, and the very next week take the handcuffs off and he has a nice game passing to said weapons.

      I can go on and on and on.

      I don’t think this roster is either stripped bare, nor do I think it’s loaded with talent. But coaches are supposed to get the most out of the rosters they have.

      There is zero reasonable argument to be made that PC is doing even close to that.

      • Scot04

        Agree on all the above Cha, especially Lewis.
        The position change made 0 sense to me.
        Heck if PC here still next year we might see Lewis at Center to start 2022.
        We definitely need changes across the board up top.
        I just hope they’re still able to keep Wilson regardless of what they do.

      • Paul Cook

        Nice synopsis of what’s made the Hawks frustrating for me to watch in recent years. How many times have I looked over at my poor partner in the room watching the games and frustratingly exclaimed something along the lines of “why is it that me a nobody fan can clearly see what needs to be done to mine more of the talent and potential that we have?” PC just misses or fails to do obvious stuff. Nothing deep in the weeds stuff. This is before you even get into his game management/analytic stuff which he’s always been weak at.

        I’m just done with the PC show. I’m ready for something new. I just hope the ownership team is up to it.

      • GerryG

        “I can go on and on and on.”

        * Let’s just completely ignore the SAM position in terms of a roster spot, and instead utilize 1) the most promising LEO on the roster (who is in his first year and just needs to develop his pass rush skills) and/or 2) our plethora of other JAG options from the “deepest” DL since 2013.

      • Big Mike

        Outstanding cha

      • J.P.

        I think you’re overselling Geno Smith off that one Jaguars game. The guy did his best, but he failed to come through for them against the Rams, and Steelers when they needed him to step up for a drive to win it. He was genuinely awful against the Saints, the only reason he wasn’t a total travesty was because they tried to limit his exposure. Even despite that, he took 5 sacks, and most of his yards came of one fluky play to Metcalf where he ran for like 80 yards. It’s a pick your poison scenario.

        So far as them under-performing, not sure I agree really. The defense hasn’t been a problem for a month now and I still feel like they’re not that great a unit on paper but I’m not really worried about them, so much as I worry about Geno Smith or broken thumb Wilson playing QB for us.

        If Wilson was healthy, or hell not even Wilson, if we had any decent QB starting the last month like Matt Stafford, I’d feel like this is a team that probably has a great shot at being playoff bound.

        • AlaskaHawk

          Well who’s fault is it that Carroll hired Geno Smith instead of a better backup? The list goes on…

          • J.P.

            I don’t have a problem with Geno being the backup actually.

            My problem with Pete is mostly personnel that we are currently lacking elsewhere. I think most of the other stuff is really overstated like how the team is under-performing relative to its talent level. The Rams just got smoked two games in a row and they’re staring down at a possible third beatdown. Must be a terribly unprepared team or something. McVay giving up on the run too easily, throwing give up screen plays, same old tired post game speech (That’s on me, I need to do put guys in position to win, blahblah), etc.

            It’s like the last game.The natural reaction of some folks is, it’s not Russ, it’s the game plan. No, it was Russ. I wondered why they did not run it more, but it’s likely because he was struggling out there with the handoffs, just as the passing game was garbage because they could only run a lot of quick game but he was sailing like the easiest passes, which led to him getting very scared to pull the trigger causing the offense to look like there’s no plan. You can say Pete should’ve put the foot down, but let’s face it, Wilson’s pride would never allow it.

            • Rob Staton

              The natural reaction of some folks is, it’s not Russ, it’s the game plan. No, it was Russ.

              Everyone has acknowledged it was Russ.

              But it’s silly to ignore the fact he was playing with an injured finger and therefore a game plan that accounted for this was the order of the day.

              There was no evidence of that.

              I would’ve preferred some creative runs — which are do-able as San Fran showed on Monday. Or some well designed and executed screens (chance would be a fine thing). Or even some deliberate movement to get Russ on the move and have a lot of crossers — where he can throw short or run for gains.

              Instead it looked a lot like they were simply hoping for Russ to produce something to get things going.

              I wondered why they did not run it more, but it’s likely because he was struggling out there with the handoffs

              I doubt that. This feels like a reach to blame the finger for that.

              You can say Pete should’ve put the foot down, but let’s face it, Wilson’s pride would never allow it.

              Stuff like this is a tell for when people have an agenda.

              • J.P.

                I mean I don’t really agree with much of that really, but okay.

                I just think it’s more logical that they couldn’t run their usual offense, nor run the football on a Pete Carroll team because of the giant elephant in the room that day. Makes more sense to me then, oh they had no plan, Russ was just making it up or something.

                I mean WIlson himself was looking at light boxes all day, he could’ve checked into runs like he usually does or Geno often did but he rarely did despite his finger clearly bothering him all game as shown by the balls that were just completely sailing on him.

        • cha

          I think you’re overselling Geno Smith off that one Jaguars game.

          Go back and watch his passes. Almost all of them were in tight windows or were contested.

          There’s a broad thought that the Jags stink and it’s not unjustified. But they had good coverage and he had some great throws to beat the coverage in that game.

          So far as them under-performing, not sure I agree really. The defense hasn’t been a problem for a month now and I still feel like they’re not that great a unit on paper but I’m not really worried about them

          I didn’t make some blanket statement about the defense underperforming, nor did I set some kind limited time frame like you have for gauging its success. You’re making a counterpoint to a discussion you invented.

          • J.P.

            I assumed you were talking about this year based off the last sentence or so. Though I think it applies to recent years as well really.

            Frankly I don’t think they’ve under-performed under Pete Carroll. The way they build their roster, I’ve always thought they got what was coming for them every year. The roster hasn’t been balanced since like 2014. No roster since then seems like it deserved to make it very far in the playoffs and they haven’t.

            So far as Geno goes, he was terrible against the Steelers too when they asked him to put on his big boy pants in the first half. I mean he torched the Jaguars, it should’ve worked against the Steelers in the first half and OT, right? But it didn’t. He finally got something going once the RBs were having a field day out there, but reverted back to the same guy you saw in the Saints game, once the Steelers slowed the run. Jags are just bad, he broke some Aaron Rodgers record that game for goodness sake. Towards the end of the Saints game, Geno had multiple chances to win it and he was busy taking a bunch of sacks against a good Saints D. It was basically just picking your poison that game. I think the only difference would be if the O-Line wasn’t getting manhandled that game. The pass game was as nauseating to watch as the run game.

            • cha

              Frankly I don’t think they’ve under-performed under Pete Carroll. The way they build their roster, I’ve always thought they got what was coming for them every year.

              I’ve never contended this roster is ready for a serious playoff run, and that it just needs to play the players I think they should. But there are obvious areas where the coaching staff has made choices that are not supported by the eye test, the stats or PFF scores and I highlighted just a few of them. And those choices are not bearing much fruit.

              Mayowa has one sack and a 60 PFF grade, Penny immediately got hurt again, Lewis has struggled at LG, and we’re all celebrating Adams’ first effective game in a long time.

              As for Geno, I’m more than willing to give him a mulligan for the Pittsburgh game. His first start in years, on the road in a prime time game against Tj Watt and Minkah Fitzpatrick isn’t easy.

              But I don’t think the staff even tried to get Geno into a rhythm for the Saints game. Sure, he took some sacks when he shouldn’t have. But seeing Metcalf bust Lattimore, get into his head and draw some penalties, and then completely ignore getting him the ball until they absolutely needed to is bad coaching plain and simple.

      • Gross MaToast

        Gosh, this is harsh and fantastic.

  29. cha

    Josh Weinfuss
    Nov 14
    Kingsbury on the Panthers’ dominating win: “That team out-coached us, out-played us, played and coached with more of a sense of urgency, and they got after us.”

    • cha

      Josh Weinfuss
      Nov 14
      Kliff Kingsbury wishes he would’ve called a different play on fourth-and-1 in the first quarter when Colt McCoy got stuffed. “We’re going to be aggressive and we’ve been successful this year.”

    • Rob Staton

      Imagine saying that instead of ‘I just don’t recognise this game’

  30. Happy Hawk

    Rob: Looking at draft positioning and possible picks is there anyway Kenneth Walker is there early in the second round where the Hawks will most likely be picking? Also what is known about the upcoming Center class – is Jarret Patterson from Notre Dame of interest?

    • Rob Staton

      On Walker — yes, absolutely

      On Patterson — not someone I’ve watched. I like Forsyth the Oregon center. The Iowa center is overrated by draft media but certainly has a lot of potential.

  31. Palatypus

    FWIW so far the only quarterback who has accepted an invite to the Senior Bowl is Bailey Zappe from Western Kentucky.

    • Rob Staton

      That’s quite a name

  32. Rob Staton

    Oh Jamal 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


    • Big Mike

      To quote George Harrison:
      “I me me mine”

      You lost the damned game but it’s ALL about you isn’t it? I would trade this guy for whatever I could get. Is there anyone that thinks Bill Belichick would put up with one ounce of this guys false bravado.

      • TomLPDX

        I’ve gotten to the point that I can’t even stand seeing this guy. I’ve never felt that way about a player, not even the Boz!

    • cha

      Remember the old saying ‘never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel”, Jamal?

    • Ashish

      Was very surprised he was able to catch the ball but not surprised by boasting. What a jerk

  33. RIP Sonics

    Risk may be the fastest way back to an exciting brand of football:
    I would be okay with (not happy) trading Wilson to Philadelphia for next 2 years 1st and 2nd rd picks along with Jalen Hurtz or Garden Minshew as a stop gap and trying to rebuild through the draft. Likewise, New Orleans for similar Draft Value and Ian Book. I think that is the only way you can conceivably trade Wilson is if you are receiving a young quarterback on a rookie deal in return.
    At this point it is evident Wilson is not able to carry the team alone (not many QB’s can with large contracts) and the salary committed is making the margins closer and changing the dynamic in the locker room from “We all we got, we all we need” to “I’m all we got! and you don’t give me enough to win.” A young quarterback could be just as likely refreshing as frustrating at times. I think you have to take a chance in this regard and take the lumps if it doesn’t work out. Mediocrity is the worst place to be and as much as people like to blame Carroll for the mediocrity, the team has been mediocre since changing of the guard to Wilson as the centerpiece. Lots of factors to consider as has been discussed in great detail on this blog but the quarterback can’t be excused as separate from the team performance.
    Even in the years we went to the super bowl his performances were not what carried us, in fact the opposite. 2013 for instance, Russell threw only 3 touchdown passes and passed only 68 times through 3 games. He also took 7 sacks and fumbled twice.
    In 2014 he threw 72 passes through 3 games and had 6 touchdowns and 5 interceptions. He also was sacked 10 times and fumbled twice. We were lucky to weather his catastrophic performance against the packers and get some miraculous breaks at the end of the game to win.
    His best stretches of his career have come against bottom 15 defenses.
    This is not to give evidence that Russell isn’t a good quarterback, in fact I think he is by far the best quarterback we have had in Seattle. It was his ability to win in close games that separated him and that just isn’t happening any longer. We can debate as to why but it seems the hesitancy or inability to run with the same effectiveness is hurting his closing ability. In 2014 playoffs for instance, he ran for over 100 yards and read option was firmly a part of the 2 min gameplan. He consistently took yards with his legs when teams dropped the coverage in prevent situations leading to miraculous comebacks in games. He is a big reason teams have been searching for quarterback with scrambling ability. That is what made Russell an all time great. Without this it is really hard to be optimistic about a full shift to a Russell centric franchise fixing the problem.

    • Rob Staton

      I would be okay with (not happy) trading Wilson to Philadelphia for next 2 years 1st and 2nd rd picks along with Jalen Hurtz or Garden Minshew as a stop gap and trying to rebuild through the draft.

      But why?

      Why would you want to trade for a quarterback Philadelphia has deemed isn’t good enough, for the opportunity to use one first round pick this year and one next year?

      I don’t understand why this is a thought anyone would dwell on for more than a moment before realising this is really, really, really stupid.

      Likewise, New Orleans for similar Draft Value and Ian Book. I think that is the only way you can conceivably trade Wilson is if you are receiving a young quarterback on a rookie deal in return.

      Ian Book!!!????

      Are you serious?

      I’m starting to think you’re trolling.

      At this point it is evident Wilson is not able to carry the team alone (not many QB’s can with large contracts) and the salary committed is making the margins closer and changing the dynamic in the locker room from “We all we got, we all we need” to “I’m all we got! and you don’t give me enough to win.”

      If they hadn’t blown so much resource they would’ve done.


      A young quarterback could be just as likely refreshing as frustrating at times.

      Or awful. They could be awful.

      And borderline unwatchable.

      I think you have to take a chance in this regard and take the lumps if it doesn’t work out.

      The lumps being years of mediocrity? A return to the bad old days?

      Re-entering the never ending search for a quarterback of the caliber we already have?

      Mediocrity is the worst place to be and as much as people like to blame Carroll for the mediocrity, the team has been mediocre since changing of the guard to Wilson as the centerpiece.

      And since they started using first round picks on Rashaad Penny and LJ Collier, blew picks and millions on Jamal Adams, wasted tens of millions in free agency etc etc

      Let’s forget all that and blame ‘quarterback is centrepiece’

      Even in the years we went to the super bowl his performances were not what carried us, in fact the opposite. 2013 for instance, Russell threw only 3 touchdown passes and passed only 68 times through 3 games. He also took 7 sacks and fumbled twice.

      You’re right he sucked.

      Tarvaris Jackson would’ve done just as well.

      We were lucky to weather his catastrophic performance against the packers and get some miraculous breaks at the end of the game to win.

      Yes, the Seahawks were so fortunate to weather a bad game by the QB.

      He has never returned the favour.

      His best stretches of his career have come against bottom 15 defenses.

      Useless old Wilson.

      Bloody hammering the bad teams.

      The stat-padding monster.

      I can only read so much utter GUFF before I have to call it out as GUFF.

      • RIP Sonics

        This is not meant to be a proposal of what should happen in the offseason, I will not pretend to have all the information or experience necessary to make these decisions. I am only stating it is one path as a fan I would be okay with should Wilson refuse to return barring significant increase of control going forward in the Franchise. In an ideal world, all would get along. In an ideal world, Wilson doesn’t have a no trade clause and you could go out and get more if he is discontent. There is no trade compensation that could conceivable replace Wilson in the immediate future but if he is determined to leave and these are franchises he wants to go to what do you propose you get in return? I am just preparing myself for situations I could have some optimism for should things go south.
        I apologize for writing my last post in a way that lead you to “useless old Wilson” as a take away. I’m sure there is a lot of Russell Wilson hate you filter through so I guess it may be conceived that way through your lense. I appreciate you responding.
        My point of bringing up the playoff statistics was to highlight that closing ability not productivity of Wilson against tough teams is what makes him elite. The game breaking ability that made him largely matchup proof and led to a historic run for our offense in 2012 and countless epic comeback wins over the years is tied (not entirely) to his scrambling ability. He had one more thing to lean on when finding ways to win. This hasn’t been the case the last few years despite his statistics being fantastic. I am not confident a coaching change alone will fix it. Do I think Carroll is helping right now? No. Do I think the talent they have brought in is helping? No. In fact I have been very disappointed with our picks and am no longer trusting the front office has conviction in their evaluation. I also think this type of team doesn’t highlight the strengths of Pete Carroll and this is a big part of the cross roads we are at now. But at this point I don’t see a new coaching staff fixing the issues Russell has been encountering recently. I fear that shifting the power to Wilson’s camp, getting rid of Carroll, getting a new GM, will just lead to similar if not worse results.
        Also, what do you have against Ian Book? haha The guy hasn’t even played yet. By all accounts of fans of New Orleans he will be starting for the Saints in the next year and is thought of highly in that organization. Of course he is not even in the same escialon as Russell but throwing him in with a hall of picks to enter the competition well you recalibrate for the quarterback search? We could do a lot worse. Paying a 15-20 million for a journeyman veteran as a stop gap has no appeal over a 1 million quarterback that could have some upside. Cam Newton just got paid 6 million plus incentives for half a season. In the event you are going to make a trade with the Saints they wouldn’t need a young quarterback and would likely just throw him in on top of the same draft compensation to get a deal done, not as a substitute for capital. The alternative is trade and receive no one in return and go trade or sign someone else as you’ve articulately detailed as an underwhelming undertaking.
        I am merely saying as a fan, I would enjoy watching the team with those aforementioned quarterbacks as stop gaps rather than a Matt Ryan, Tyrod Taylor, or Ryan Fitzpatrick should Wilson decide to move on. And hey, worst case at least I will be able to afford tickets to games again!
        In no way am I saying Wilson is washed up or worthless, I still think Wilson will be a productive quarterback for years to come. In fact I was really encouraged by Russell’s post game interview and think he is going to have a great finish to this season. I am just not encouraged wholesale change revolving around Wilson will make the team more fun to watch. I will be a fan regardless of what direction we go in.

  34. Denver Hawker

    Half our fan base out here trying to ship Wilson.

    How many teams WOULDN’T be all over that? He’s an upgrade to every team except maybe 2-4. How many teams have been middling in QB purgatory for a decade?

    Denver has a top defense and a stout run game. They are a .500 team because Teddy Bridgewater. Somehow our fans think we’d be better off with a Teddy and our 30th ranked Defense plus a 1st rounder.

  35. Palatypus

    For all of the “trade Russ” people, go back and look at how many quarterbacks the Cleveland Browns have had since Bill Belichick cut Bernie Kosar in 1993.

    Now go and look at how many quarterbacks the Miami Dolphins have had since Dan Marino last played in 1999.

    Now go and look at how many quarterbacks the Seahawks have had between 2005, when Matt Hasselbeck took them to their first Super Bowl, and 1983 when the Broncos drafted John Elway.

    Now add up all of the Super Bowls that Denver, Pittsburgh, and New England have been in during those periods.

  36. OP_Chillin

    I think the most concerning issue regarding Russ was his decision making. Reviewing the film, there were just too many quick outs he looked at and didn’t throw. I’d honestly have rather seen him sky a few more balls to those receivers in rhythm, at least then it’d be clear that it was the finger. Same with the second pick, Swain was open to get 5 or so yards but he threw it into double coverage with 8+ minutes left in the fourth. Get a score there and we’d at least have had a chance.

    Just as a brief comparison, I was watching some Mac Jones film and it was pretty impressive what he was doing on third-and-long plays in terms of making tough throws on time against pressure. Now, obviously, Mac doesn’t have the arm talent, athleticism, deep ball, overall accuracy, etc. of Russ, but the ability to manage pressure in the pocket and operate in condensed pockets is something Russ doesn’t demonstrate consistently. I think if he wants to prolong his career as his athleticism wanes, he’ll have to develop that skill and I just don’t think it happens 10+ years into a career.

  37. KD

    What is everyone’s thoughts on a plausible, potential replacement for Carroll? Dream candidate?

    • uptop

      Realistic candidates would be maybe joe Brady, kellen Moore, Brian daboll, Matt eberflus, Todd Bowles, Dan Quinn (blegh)

      Dream candidates would be Lincoln Riley or Kyle Shanahan.

      Out of the realistic ones I’d take Joe Brady

  38. ElroyNumbers

    Taking Eskridge instead of Creed Humphrey was massive mistake. Receivers can always be found in free agency. Good O lineman are rare. It’s hard to say who has final decision on major draft, free agency and trade decisions. Is it Carroll is it Schneider. My guess is Carroll. He is great coach but needs to relieved of gm decisions. Keep Schneider but bring back Scott McLoughin and have Carroll just focus on coaching. When we took away gm powers from Holmgren was when we made it to super bowl.

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