Russell Wilson should become Seattle’s franchise focal point from 2022, replacing Pete Carroll
If you were a fan of a NFL team needing a long term answer at quarterback, the chances are you looked at a mock draft or two over the summer.
You would’ve seen the same names listed in the top-10.
Oklahoma’s Spencer Rattler definitely would’ve been there.
Today, he was benched by the Sooners as they struggled against Texas. His replacement, a talented true freshman, led an epic comeback.
Rattler’s always been overrated. Talented, yes. But flawed. Incapable of making sound decisions, he too often trusts his arm to throw into double (or even triple) coverage. He’s turned the ball over too often and enabled Oklahoma to play down to their opponents.
The mistakes he was making last year remain. He looks like a player who already believes he’s destined for glory at the next level. Reportedly he’s been looking at agents.
Some players try to run before they walk. College football is the ideal development opportunity. It’s not a mere stop-off on a long trip.
Rattler, to me, is no more than a day three flier on the off-chance things come together. He’s in the Jacob Eason range. Naturally gifted but certainly not worth the lofty projections many in the media were offering.
The point of all this is to emphasise how difficult it is to find a legit solution at quarterback in the NFL.
The 2022 draft class at the position looks horrendous. Apart from Rattler, North Carolina’s Sam Howell has also been pumped up way too much. Liberty’s Malik Willis is an exciting college player with major technical flaws. Nevada’s Carson Strong is being touted early, with no real evidence as to why.
Cincinnati’s Desmond Ridder might be the most intriguing player and yet he feels very much like a day two prospect. Certainly if Kellen Mond is only a third round pick, it’s hard to project Ridder much higher.
Even when you stumble on a franchise superstar, there can often be an element of fortune about it.
Justin Herbert, to me, looks like the most natural passer of a football you’ll ever see. The way he took to the pro’s as a rookie had to be seen to be believed. He looked like he belonged pretty much from his first action in the NFL.
You could never have projected that watching him at Oregon. It’s not that he was bad — he was just erratic. He threw interceptions you’d never see him throw now. He was constrained within a dull Ducks offense and maybe that had a negative impact?
With the Chargers, however, he looks like someone who could realistically outgun Patrick Mahomes in the division. It won’t be a surprise if the AFC West produces multiple MVP awards in the coming years.
If the Chargers knew Herbert would be what he was, they wouldn’t have waited until #6 to draft him in 2020. Neither would the Dolphins have passed on him for Tua Tagovailoa.
Other teams would’ve ensured he went #2 overall at the absolute latest, behind only Joe Burrow. Heck, he would’ve usurped Burrow and would be in Cincinnati now.
The best quarterback to enter the league since Mahomes was only the third player at his position taken in his draft class. Figure that one out.
Likewise, who saw Josh Allen going from pumpkin to Cinderella’s carriage in Buffalo after two indifferent seasons to begin his pro career? Allen was also the third quarterback to be drafted in his class.
The Ravens took Lamar Jackson with the last pick in the first round.
Dak Prescott? Fourth rounder.
Aaron Rodgers? Fell deep into the second half of round one.
Kyler Murray? Written off by most of the draft media who said he was too small and cared too much about a baseball career (until they realised, you know, that he was actually insanely brilliant).
Tom Brady? No need to even mention his story.
And of course Russell Wilson — pick #75 in 2012.
There’s a degree of fortune about most of these moves. Yes, teams deserve credit for having the foresight to be the ones to actually pull the trigger. But what people think going into a draft is often usurped by reality.
Think of all the many high first round picks spent on quarterbacks who absolutely bombed in the NFL.
This is an unpredictable business. And when you find that diamond, you have to cling onto it.
Some Seahawks fans seem to have it in for Wilson. I don’t mean they raise legitimate questions about his play. I mean they actually seem to dislike him, or at least thrive on being negative about him.
They talk about moving on as if it would almost be like scratching an itch.
Let’s have a bit of a reality check here.
Firstly, let’s acknowledge that Wilson isn’t perfect. He isn’t flawless. There are legitimate points to raise about why he hasn’t at times been able to ‘take what a defense is offering’. The concerns that some people raise aren’t unfair.
Now let’s look at what Wilson is. He’s a sure-fire Hall-of-Famer at age 32. What some people consider to be a fairly middling start to his season before his injury amounts to 10 touchdowns and one interception and a 90.3 PFF grade. He became the fastest quarterback to 100 wins in NFL history. He has a career passer rating of 102.3 and exactly 300 total career touchdowns.
For all the talk of him being propped up by the LOB and Marshawn Lynch — he has been the one propping up a bad defense for years. He’s been the one keeping the Seahawks winning when their running game has collapsed, when their O-lines have been useless and when they can’t rush the passer.
Until this week, he hadn’t missed a single game in his career. It’s a freaky, flukey finger injury that will end that incredible run, despite all of the punishment he’s taken since 2012.
He’s the ultimate driven, determined winner. He is desperate to win more Super Bowls. So much so, that he’s willing to rock the boat as he did last off-season to make that point. He wants to be the best and expects the franchise he’s playing for to do what it takes to share that goal.
You don’t just ‘move on’ from players like this. Move on to what?
We know what is likely coming in the off-season. Wilson seriously flirted with a trade earlier this year and with the season now likely heading one way, this will all re-emerge without major changes at the end of the year.
Greg Olsen spelled out exactly what the issue is right before kick-off on Thursday:
Wilson doesn’t believe in Carroll’s philosophy any more. He feels confined by it. He’s tired of, as Olsen put it, playing a brand of football that keeps things close then asks him to ‘pull a rabbit out of his hat’ in the fourth quarter.
It’s much harder to replace a franchise quarterback than it is to replace a Head Coach. Just ask the New England Patriots and New Orleans Saints, who are going through it now.
Eventually this franchise is going to need to make a call. That call needs to be to throw their lot in with the quarterback and create the kind of setup where he believes he can seriously compete for Championships for the next 8-10 years.
As I’ve said numerous times already. I think Carroll will make that decision easy for the Seahawks by retiring in the off-season. He looks and sounds like a man who is coming to the end. The thought of him sending off the franchise quarterback somewhere else to launch a complete rebuild in the off-season is fantasy land stuff. He’s not going to do that. Not at age 70.
And Wilson isn’t going to allow the status quo to continue any longer.
I predict major change will come. Ownership clearly hoped that Carroll’s five-year extension would get them through a period of transition before, potentially, selling the team. Instead, I think they’ll need to make a key appointment at Head Coach and possibly General Manager without needing to fire either of the men in the job currently.
Again, as I’ve stated, my preference would be a Joe Brady or Brian Darboll type — assisted by an experienced defensive coordinator who can deliver a complementary defense.
Or failing that, they need to find the next Brandon Staley — who already looks and sounds like a star in the making.
Whether ownership is up to that task is a major question mark. I do think they’ll have an opportunity to prove whether they are or not, however.
The 2022 off-season should be a mission to change the focal point of the franchise from Carroll to Wilson. The current ownership structure gave the keys to Carroll. It’s time to pass them on to a new owner. You’ve got to at least give that a shot before moving on from a player who could end up being impossible to replace.
I’m not watching a lot of college football today because I’m heading to London early tomorrow for the Jets vs Falcons game. However, I wanted to share this video of blog favourite Kenneth Walker to show what he’s been up to today…
š±@Kenneth_Walker9 // @MSU_Football pic.twitter.com/c8IpALdcrL
— Big Ten Network (@BigTenNetwork) October 9, 2021
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“Some Seahawks fans seem to have it in for Wilson. I donāt mean they raise legitimate questions about his play. I mean they actually seem to dislike him, or at least thrive on being negative about him.”
Truer words have not been spoken. This was posted on the last thread:
“RW clearly packing it in, not risking injury so he can leave this offseason!”
Question Wilson’s ability to throw over the middle if you want, question him not taking what the defense offers, question his not throwing to the TEs, say he was being a bitch for the trade demands, etc. Those are fair and at times legitimate criticisms. But to question the man’s commitment to succeeding and his work ethic is nothing but hating.
You Wilson haters (and you’re out there, even if you protest that you’re not) be oh so careful what you wish for.
Enjoy the game tomorrow Rob. Maybe bring us a scouting report on what the Jets could do with the Seahawks’ likely top 15 pick based on what you see their needs are.
Gallows humor, Big Mike ā¦ I like it.
So you’re in favor not of a rebuild or a partial rebuild, but just a straight firing of the HC & DC (along with Schneider presumably and Waldron might pay the price and get the axe too) but the roster would stay as it is?
While it seems the most likely of all the possible options that include PC being fired, I honestly have giving more thought to blowing it up or some level of a rebuild. The problem with that I’ve come to is why would RW stick around for that? Our roster and draft situation low-key sucks but RW wouldn’t re-sign with SEA as it rebuilds and sells talent away for draft picks that turn into rookies that likely need time to develop before being any good. So that line of thinking makes sense. The same roster but a team philo that revolves around the NFL’s modern game, built for RW. No more “circle of toughness”, balance, running the ball cause it “sets” things up or because hitting a certain number of runs equates likelihood of success and so on.
“Again, as Iāve stated, my preference would be a Joe Brady or Brian Darboll type ā assisted by an experienced defensive coordinator who can deliver a complementary defense. Or failing that, they need to find the next Brandon Staley ā who already looks and sounds like a star in the making.”
I’m not expert on any of those guys but yes please. Brandon Staley sure does sound like a breath of fresh air the NFL needs and Pete is stale, outdated hot air that needs to be put away. It worked for a while when you had a Def loaded with HOF’ers but with them gone your Def’s have been trash if not historically bad.
Lastly, the RW criticism. Honestly, I feel it. It bugs me to no end that for whatever reason he can’t seem to pass to the middle of the field, the intermediate part of the field and he can’t throw a screen (an important play, look at how it’s carving us up) to save his life. Watching Geno (gag) come in and all of a sudden the offense operates as it should with passes going to TE’s, slants to DK, passes to the MOF and the intermediate area… It’s a tough pill to swallow. Then with Geno SEA throws a perfectly executed screen. The final knife into my heart.
It does make me really frustrated with RW. But you CAN’T get rid of him. Yes he has deficiencies but he’s still one of the best in the league and only 33 next season. Unless you can get a RANSOM and there are multiple very appealing QB’s in the upcoming draft class (say what you will about JS but him being linked to loving Mahomes and Allen was nice to hear) you gotta stick with him and thank God you’re talking about sticking with a future HOF’er playing still at a pretty high level and not some Kirk Cousins or Jimmy G type QB.
Generally agreed.
Why would Russ stick around, assuming a new HC will want a new OC?
Another year to learn another new system?
Wouldn’t Russ rather be somewhere that everyone else knows the system and he’s the only one who has to learn it?
This is what he did when he transfered to Wisconsin, with a relative measure of success.
Think the most likely outcome is both PC and RW leave after this year
Some dark times ahead…
if he leaves he will have a new HC-OC and system, same difference.
Rob are you just attending the game as a fan, or are you going to be credentialed as a member of the press?
Is Tony Pauline going to be there? Take him out for a pint on us and we’ll superchat you a couple dollars.
I have media credentials
They need to hire a staff who will make Russell Wilson the focal point.
Yes. Russell Wilson has flaws. Barry Sanders couldn’t block. Deion Sanders couldn’t tackle. There are Hall of Famers who had flaws. Russell Wilson is a Hall of Famer with well over a half decade of greatness remaining. You don’t throw that away!
They need to use 2022 as a “reset” of sorts in terms of having a long-term vision. Instead of using a mid-2nd round pick on someone they have to have (they aren’t one player away), they need to be willing to trade down multiple times in order to accumulate draft capitol for 2023 and even 2024. You need those young, talented, hungry players playing on rookie contracts. Get an extra 2nd round if you can. Get a few extra 3rd rounders if you can. Load up on 4th and 5th round picks if you can.
Don’t “comPete” to go for it all in 2022 when we all know damn well that’s probably not realistic. “ComPete” to set yourself up for greatness in 2023 and beyond. Make hard decisions. I’ll understand one year of trying to get things right, but I’ll suffer and be mad if we keep “going for it” individually every year because that “comPeting” had ruined what they once had (their initial long-term vision).
I was a big Dan Marino fan and Don Shula was like Pete Carroll towards the end (then Jimmy failed because he tried to make Dan Marino a stupid game manager). They’d go out and get these older bandaids who, although pretty good, was to win now but sacrifice their future.
Just let us get young and hungry again and lets go into 2023 and 2024 with at least 10 draft picks each year. I’m not talking about a bunch of 6th and 7th round picks to make drafts look better than they are. I don’t expect to get any 1st round picks in those years (nobody is dumb enough to give a No. 1 for Jamal Adams) but just guys on day 2-3 who can be cheap and want to fight for that second big payday while Wilson leads them.
That’s “all” I ask.
I would prefer they took the best player available, rather than trading down. Iām tired of saying, āWho the hell is_______ā after nearly every pick. Iām tired of reaches at supposed positions of need. Their evaluation of talent is bad. Just plain bad. They have holes in every position group on this team. Every single group. After 2022, even the receiver group might be without DK as he will surely be demanding $20 million or more.
I understand the idea of more picks, more opportunities to hit on a winner. However, this current coach and GM are not the ones to do it. Get a younger, more dynamic staff in there to make the right talent evaluations and the right fit for a modern scheme.
And for the love of god, no more reaches, trying to outsmart a league that has passed you by 4 years ago.
When you don’t pick until the 2nd round, there is no BPA for the most part.
I’m suggesting not to trade down once, but twice, three times, four times, five times, etc. I want trading down to screw over the 2022 draft in exchange for our Seahawks to have an unfair advantage of draft picks in 2023 and 2024… F-comPete in ’22. Care about 23-24-25…
HAVE A LONG-TERM VISION, NOT THIS BS SHORT TERM “comPete” each individual year crap. That’s all I’m saying. For 1-year, please care about the future more than now.
Youāre talking about a complete tear down and rebuild, which guarantees the franchise is horrifically bad for multiple years. Russ would leave, DK would request a trade, or just play out his contract, and Lockett would follow him out the door with a trade request. Any vet signing would be by someone chasing money, not a legacy. Thatās not a good thing.
You cannot build a team from scratch and expect it to be a viable winner for a long time. It simply doesnāt happen in todayās NFL. You would need an entirely new coaching staff and front office to be nearly perfect in their decision making. That never happens.
I just donāt see any member of the ownership group wanting this. Theyāre looking to sell the team and a complete rebuild is not good for the profit margin.
“Any vet signing would be by someone chasing money, not a legacy.” I’d be willing to bet over 95% of free agents do this already. This wouldn’t matter.
Adams would need to go. Maybe they can get something for him? I bet they could get a couple of picks for him if they did a Osweiller/Goff type deal where they eat some money in addition to getting rid of a talent in the right scheme. And if they could get about 4 draft picks, including a pair of No. 1 picks for DK then you have to consider that.
Trading those two players wouldn’t destroy this team if Eskridge can step on the field at some point. Heck, trading Adams wouldn’t hurt at all. You can still compete in ’22 – especially when you have a franchise QB in an offense tailored to his skills.
“You cannot build a team from scratch and expect it to be a viable winner for a long time.” How would you have to build a team from scratch if you had a franchise QB, a guy like Damien Lewis, a pair of WRs in Lockett and Eskridge, a pair of edge guys like Robinson and Taylor, etc. That’s actually a decent nucleus.
I’ve seen the franchise be historically bad – that would not be close to the ’22 team.
Lets say they get the 20th overall pick for DK (and more). You can’t tell me they couldn’t trade it into the 2nd round to pick up another 2nd round pick in 2023. Then you can’t tell me they couldn’t trade that early 2nd round pick to move into the later 2nd round, while picking up another 2nd round pick in 2023. Then they’d have two 2nd round picks this year and three in the 2nd round next year. That’s just an example.
With one of their 2nd round picks this year – they should draft a Center if they can. The Center is important and this player would work with Russ for the remainder of their careers together. That is important. Get two guys like that to work together for a long time. That’s a long-term vision. Not applying these bandaids to bigger issues. Sure, it may suck in ’22 to have a rookie Center, but that’s an important position (QB of the OL).
That’s just one example of trying to compete in ’22 while setting yourself up for greatness the following years. True franchise QBs never are on teams well under .500, regardless of how bad the team is. The floor next year would be 7-10. That’s not “historically bad.”
100% with you on Wilson. You need look no further than the Seahawks own terrible run of QB’s in the pre (and post) Hasselbeck era – – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Seattle_Seahawks_starting_quarterbacks . When you’ve lived through that, you know that what this article says is very true, one only tends to notice the success story QB’s like Herbert. But for every one of those, there are at two or three Tua’s – – and that’s if you’re lucky enough to have a top-15 pick.
One thing that I don’t think is just a nothing point in the situation – Wilson is under contract for two more seasons after this one. And while I know that QB’s can make a lot of off-season noise, if the Seahawks stick to their guns, does Wilson actually sit out a season, and lose a year of building those HoF credentials, not to mention $35M? It would be ugly, but the contract gives Seattle leverage.
I cannot imagine Carroll, in any way shape or form, indulging in another 12 months of drama around his QB.
Thatās why I believe he walks
you mean Carroll, yes?
You could be right – you’ve been noting his tone and body language all year – he always seems to say he wants to stay around for lots of years, but yeah, who knows. His tenure does need to end sometime, maybe this is it.
Yes, Carroll.
IMO there’s been a noticeable change in Carroll’s demeanour this year.
Iāve changed my opinion and have chosen to believe youāll be proven right, i.e. Carroll resigns after this season. Only this gives me hope for 2022, and allows me to stay engaged with this yearās dumpster fire of a season.
It also helps Carroll make the retirement decision when more and more of the fan base has started calling for his firing. No matter how many times he may say he doesnāt pay attention to that stuff, he does. He cannot escape it in this instant reaction, social media society. Nor should he. Heās just as proud of his legacy as Wilson. As Rob has stated, Pete does not want to sully that legacy by leaving a completed dismantled franchise in his wake.
Good thought, feeling more positive already.
Unlike years past Peter looks tired when he is out there. (When Pete is doing bad things I like to think it’s his evil twin Peter)
I don’t want Wilson to leave the Seahawks but I am very curious to see what Shane Waldron’s offense looks like in his absence. Will it have rhythm? Will the much taller Smith be able to sustain drives? Throw to the TEs? Use the middle of the field? Avoid unnecessary sacks? This next game will be fascinating to watch.
I donāt know why fans post stuff like this
What if Geno Smith does all of that?
So what?
You donāt trade Russell Wilson off the back of that
āWeāll just replace RW with a world class QB who can do those things like Geno!ā
I fear the somewhat easy schedule coming up will give false hope to the Geno theorists. Much like the false hope generated for last yearās defense, after they played some of the worst offensive teams in the 2nd half of the season.
Unfortunately I think anyone excited about Geno is going to find reality bites very, very quickly
Geno MIGHT have 2 decent games, and then its off to stinksville. He turn the ball over way too much. I say stealers and jaguars are his decent games, but not so much after.
Larry Stone pretty much said the same thing in his column. The Pete/Russ drama wasnāt a media thing and itās one or the other this off-season. I like his work, but the hottest take he makes is room temperature at its highest. Jody, please do the right thing and keep Russ even if it means firing the best coach and GM in this teamās history.
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/russell-wilsons-injury-leaves-the-seahawks-at-a-bleak-crossroads-could-it-portend-the-end-of-an-era/
But when I read stuff like that, all I think of is why has it taken the media so long to start talking about this stuff?
And why is that article only talking about the Wilson era?
What about Carroll?
Why is he still not being pushed by the media?
Weāve seen this coming for a long time
Well, I have no real idea why they wonāt talk more openly about the end of Carroll. I wonder why no reporters have asked him why he hasnāt been able to put together a good defense in 5 years. Why did they let Pete off the hook when he clearly pissed off the most important player in Peteās career and what heās going to do to make it better?
I feel like Stone is as close to a corporate mouthpiece as youāll get so when you read his opinion pieces, itās more like the teamās response or a high level person on the team has confirmed it. Itās good to have that part of the media, but Seattle needs the opposite too.
Hereās a simple guide to being a member of the Seattle sports media:
Step 1. Ask a question.
Step 2. Do not ask a follow-up question when given an evasive, false, or redundant answer.
Step 3. Ask a completely different, complimentary question.
Step 4. Thank whatever deity you pray to that you get paid to do this ājobā.
Jamal Adams has horrendous game.
Ask Pete for his ‘assessment’ of Adams’ play.
Pete says he’s playing really well.
Just leave it at that.
The Seattle media is immature.
I don’t mean that how you might think. Many still remember the decades of irrelevance for most major Seattle sports teams. So to have a consistent run of success above and beyond any team in Seattle sports history has those media types inclined to grovel and suck up rather than ask harder questions.
No one wants to be the one to break up the band, even though the best days are obviously over for those with eyes to see.
That does not make it right. I understand fans doing that, but reporters are supposed to do their job.
Iām in the Jets press conference now
ā Why canāt you run the ball consistently
ā Why has Z. Wilson taken two steps back today
– Why canāt you get off the field on third and long
– Why did Z. Wilson miss two specific easy throws
– Why no sacks
– Question about the game plan
And a coach who expected those questions and answered every one without issue
Any kind of rebuild needs high draft picks, and we donāt have them. The only players we could possibly trade for picks are Wilson, DK, and to a lesser extent Tyler Lockett. If you gamble and trade any of those guys, shouldnāt you just trade all of them and maximize your draft? I am not in favor of trading Wilson, but Iām also not in favor of just replacing one coach with another who cannot change parts of his game. If they donāt trade Wilson what does 2022 start to look like, with a new coach, OC, DC, GM, etc? If you keep him and replace all the coaches, Wilson is still looking at a team that is absent any talent at key positions.
I donāt think it needs a massive rebuild.
Intelligent free agency moves and a good draft and they will be moving in the right direction
I donāt see Wagner being around next year. His cap hit in 2022 is $20.35 million. His dead cap is $3.75 million. Ideally he gets traded for a decent day 2 pick. I donāt see him settling for anywhere near a team friendly deal, so he is either traded or cut. Thatās $16.75 million in cap savings. Thatās a lot of money to help plug holes in areas that are much more vital than middle linebacker.
He’s certainly not worth $20m
I agree that Russel is the key to the Seahawks future, but not for the same reasons. I believe we need to trade him to load up on picks and get a QB that can run a ball control offense. I don’t hate Russel, I just see people who are propping him up are doing the same thing as fans are doing with Jamal Adams. Yea he had 9.5 sacks, but at what cost? Yea Russ throws for 300+ yards, but how many of those got first downs? When you are on 3rd and 20, it’s easy to throw for 10 yards. When there’s 5 seconds left in the half, a 30 yard play is easier. He occasionally makes big plays, and that is awesome. I believe now he is passed his prime. I see a guy regressing in ability. Maybe he needs glasses or something, but he’s not throwing into tight windows to pick up first downs. I’m asleep when I watch him play. Every now and then I wake up to something great. I wish we got Kellen Mond. I haven’t thought about potential trade for QBs along with 3 1sts, but we should have unloaded him this year. Hopefully we still get a similar deal.
I am in no way saying PC should stay, his time is up. There’s a reason the usual retirement age is 65. I want Byron Leftwich or Eric Bienimy. Keep Waldron. Get a DC who can do it on his own. I think JS can find the magic again when PC is booted.
Oh boy. Here we go.
So tell me which quarterback you’re drafting or signing to run this ball control offense. Let’s have a name.
Sorry but this is one of the silliest things I’ve read in a long time.
1. ‘Propping up’ a quarterback a career passer rating of 102.3 who was the fastest to 100 wins in NFL history and is a sure-fire first ballot Hall-of-Famer.
2. Are you seriously comparing Wilson’s storied and in some cases record breaking career achievements to ONE f-ing season of Jamal Adams where he blitzed so often that the team manufactured 9.5 sacks for him?
3. This comment: “Yea Russ throws for 300+ yards, but how many of those got first downs?” — did you write that with a straight face?
Yep, that’s Wilson’s production in a nutshell. All of his stats are based on garbage yards on third down or end of the half padding.
Someone get me a drink.
And some circus music.
You were asleep when you wrote this comment.
RW ran a ball control offense for most of his career, until recently. I do recall for roughly half of the years of RWs career involved the Seahawks having one of the best defenses to ever exist. Russ is not a god who is the sole reason the Seahawks were ever good.
I literally said I haven’t thought about potential situations yet, but I was all about drafting Kellen Mond in the draft. You see some infallible QB who does no wrong. I see a guy who doesn’t know how to run a drive that takes more than a few minutes. This is a team game.
You split my sentences apart and attacked them individually. If you put them together I did explain his entire production in a nutshell.
I’m not gonna make jokes and attack you. You had a well thought out reason to say what you believed in the article. I disagree with your assessment.
That āball controlā offense was heavily reliant upon big plays downfield while being aided by a once in a generation defense. Ohā¦they also had a generational RB, as well. What, in the last 6 years makes you think Pete can field a good defense, let alone another generational/dominant one?
Do you think the goal of an offense should be to score points or simply burn clock? Itās an honest question. And please name a winning team that is built in such a philosophy, in 2021.
In my original post I stated that I believe PC needs to be gone as well. I think we need a whole new leadership structure, involving a new QB and HC. If we keep either one, they will have more power than they deserve, and the Seahawks will continue to be mired in mediocrity. It might be a bad year or 2, but it’s worth it to me to start anew. We need someone that knows how to score points while they’re able to burn clock. Getting first downs eventually leads to TDs. I was all about getting either Derek Carr or Sam Darnold. Both of them look decent. Will have to wait until the end of the year to see what the options will be, but I would expect the Saints might be a possibility for a trade. Not sold on their QB options, but this is just off the top of my head. The types of QBs/Offenses who get are good at ball control: Tom Brady, Derek Carr, Joe Burrow, Titans, Carolina, and many more. I believe most good teams are built that way, yet they can go big on occasion and score points in an instant.
if wilson is soooo bad, how are we going to accumulate a treasure trove of picks for him? My guess is part of the reason he is still on the seahawks, no one was going to give up 2 first rounders for him, it will be less next offseason.
RW has bailed out the Seahawks on a regular basis,often winning games and manufacturing plays in the final moments. His ability to sense pressure and manipulate the pocket are elite. Few QBs have put together more game winning drives than he did.
The aforementioned defense was in shambles by mid 2017, still the Seahawks always won more than 10 games per season while missing the playoffs only once in an otherwise competitive division.
Now why would you swap such a unique QB who is basically an insurance to win for someone totally unproven? Especially given the scarce availability of QBs in the upcoming draft(s). No free Agent is coming to the PNW.
I think RWs recent problems have nothing to do with him being past his prime, rather predictable playcalling, frustration with the organization as well as team Building. RW is one year removed from an 8 Game MVP season. Just imagine what he can do while being correctly utilized, Not having to play behind a backup center who is suddenly first on the depth chart and actually being in contention for a SB run.
I’m sorry Brik — but no amount of stitching things together will make ‘he only throws stat-padding yardage’ and ‘maybe he needs to wear glasses’ and ‘what’s the difference between Wilson’s career and that one season of Jamal Adams’ blitzing’ into a sound argument.
Seahawks fan since my teen years in the early 90ās.
I agree building around Russ is the ideal way to go. I believe that means a powerful running game that opens up the passing game. That means a strong offensive line, and a real running back. I donāt understand how this team has been unable to find a full time running back since Lynch. I donāt get the poor offensive line play and itās turnover. I do believe about half of Russās sacks are on him though. A lot of this points to the poor drafting and poor decisions made during free agency. Ifedi wasnāt great but maybe heād a been better staying, I only mention him because continuity should be considered important. Why did Sweezy get to leave in the first place? Probably shouldāve kept him. Again the point of mentioning them is that they werenāt decisions Russ made, they were choices the front office made, which among other choices have brought the team to its current poor situation.
I specifically mention Ifedi because he took so much crap from Seahawks fans, but have the sack numbers fallen since heās been gone? Nope.
And donāt even start me on the defense. The defense alone is reason enough for Pete to step aside. There is clearly major communication issues going on between the players and between the players & coaches, that alone is a major red flag on Pete. And if his āloyaltyā to coaches like Norton are more important than the well being of the teamā¦ rule one..protect the teamā¦
And all these issues have nothing to do with Russ, rather theyāre beyond his control.
āBall control offenseā is a losing philosophy in 2021. Itās especially a huge loser when you have a terrible defense.
You have a Hall of Fame QB still in the prime of his career. You don’t trade him. You build around him.
I agree, although it’s easy to say. Build with what capital? What if the cornerstone wants to leave?
This current team looks built for a last hurrah, and there does not appear to be any such hurrah coming. Wilson can see that, and can see the kind of time period likely to be necessary to climb out of this mess. His internal clock is ticking. He won’t want to stick around if he’s lost trust in the coaching and drafting of the current brain trust. And if Pete/Schneider resign, he won’t want to stick around for a whole new staff unless it knocks his socks off.
Let’s be right though. He was willing to go to the Bears, Raiders and Cowboys too.
Three teams who would’ve needed to improve their roster around RW — yet having presumably spent a fortune to acquire him, limiting their ability to do so.
Seattle, with a new regime in charge, would actually be a better option if the priority is to be on a team, improve quickly and get going again.
But there’s a chance RW simply wants a fresh start in a new market. I’m not that sure though. I think legacy is such a big thing and being with one team also matters to RW. I don’t think he wants to leave. I just think he’s given up on Pete’s philosophy.
Already answered how with limited draft picks earlier in this post.
Who’s under center in Seattle moving forward then? Would we honestly have a shot at another championship anytime soon? Do you think we would be contenders if we had Mond right now? In a couple years?
I made this before refreshing the thread. Didn’t see Rob’s response. Just f’ing perfect. My comments is not necessary!
RW cannot throw in the middle?
https://youtu.be/PPBAREEmMB0
i’m glad you posted that. I feel like that narrative has started to be posted as a ‘fact’ based on little data.
Ditto and maybe someone can find the pass to DK, slant no less and in the middle of the field that went for a TD in game 1 vs the Colts.
It’s a tired narrative that he can’t and/or won’t do it? Is it at times difficult for him? Yes. But he can and does do so.
Come on cha, you use a highlight reel as validation that Russ can throw over the middle? Don’t get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the articles you write and the amount of research you put into them. As for Rob’s article about keeping Russ, I couldn’t agree more. Yes, there are a lot of people calling out Russ’s game play. I have posted about it. Russ’s game has some holes in it. Lets be honest here.
It is a fact the Russ prefers to throw outside the numbers and intermediate to long passes down the center. You can Google it. Is that to say he can’t throw over the middle short to intermediate, no. Russ also does not throw enough to tight ends and for what ever reason has difficulty throwing screen passes. Another thing he does is he will lock on to a receiver and just stand there waiting for him to get open until the pocket collapses. I don’t know how many times I have started yelling, throw the ball, throw the fricken ball! In that same light, he doesn’t check down. Now you might read all of this and think I’m a total Russ basher. Not true.
I have, we all have seen Russ do amazing things on the football field. Many times. The list is long and more than impressive. After watching the Colts game I walked away thinking marriage made in heaven, Waldron has Russ throwing to the tight ends, utilizing the whole field and all his weapons. Awesome! Then what happened, next three games were back to last years offensive problems. What happened?
I believe the offensive line has been an issue for years and reared its ugly head again this year. I’m also not so sure that PC didn’t dial back the offense to some degree because the Colts game certainly wasn’t his style of offense. PC saying “Shane is willing to run the offense the way we’ve done it” or words to that affect, still haunts me.
I would really love to see what Russ could do playing behind a good offensive line in a offensive system other than PC’s. I hope they clean house this year and Russ stays. But I can get past the fact that, why would Russ at his age want to go through a rebuild process. Especially given our draft picks and the talent vacuum on this team. Seriously, were talking years here.
Please don’t come at me with ‘you can Google it.’ You Google it. You bring the facts to the discussion.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/2020/russell-wilson/WIL777781/2020/all/qb-grid
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/2019/russell-wilson/WIL777781/2019/all/qb-grid
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/2018/russell-wilson/WIL777781/2018/all/qb-grid
It’s hyperbolic to say he can’t throw over the “middle,” but honestly his spray charts this year are mostly a W-shape outside of like the first quarter and a half of the Vikings game when DK was getting pretty open before they tightened it up and the offense died. Lot of boundary throws, lot of short middle.
Understandable to me. I’ve said it before, that what Wilson deems open is not the same as what Brady might see as open on the field. The intermediate portion of the field is heavy traffic at times, Wilson will fire one there if he sees someone really open like Lockett, who was not actually that open and it turned into a turnover last game.
Let me explain myself better. I was not questioning your conclusion, only your method at arriving at it and how it came across as dismissive to anyone that said otherwise. I think its funny when someone uses a highlight reel as a basis to support a point or a fact. Your graphs, on the other hand clearly show Russ is more than capable of throwing accurately to all areas of the field. What they donāt show is what areas of the field Russ prefers to throw to, which was my point.
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2019/9/13/20864035/heat-mapping-seattle-seahawks-qb-russell-wilson-throws-parts-field-patrick-mahomes
As to your response āPlease donāt come at me with āyou can Google it.ā You Google it. You bring the facts to the discussion.ā
Point taken, in the future I will do so.
Their are a lot of people talking about Russās shortcomings right now, without pointing out just how good he is. I think this is being misconstrued as Russell bashing, while in most cases its probably more of an oversight. Russ clearly has holes in his game, things he has done since heās been in the league. People are pointing that out and many of us talk about it regularly.
Russel has had good tight ends, why doesnāt he utilize them more? Why does Russ seem to have difficulty throwing screen passes? Why doesnāt he throw short to intermediate passes over the middle more often? Why does he sometimes lock on to a receiver until the pocket collapses and he forced to scramble or takes a sack, instead of throwing a check down pass? Russ is a great quarterback, as has been pointed out many times here, quarterbacks with his talent, athleticism and ability are rare and difficult to find in the draft and were lucky to have him. But at the same time it doesnāt make it wrong to discuss how well he plays.
RW obviously sucks and itās such a relief that we have Dan Marino Jr leading the charge for the next 6 weeks.
This RW stuffā¦Iām completely dumbfounded where these people get this crap. His name is literally tied to the hip of Peyton Manning in all the record books so far and youād think heās a crappier version of Andy Dalton, the way some of these people talk about him.
Oh he doesnāt play the style they like? Thatās the qualm? āSure he hits a lot of home runs with a high average, but letās be honest, heās not Ted Williams.ā
RW is literally on pace to be a top 12 QB of all timeā¦and these pukes act like heās not even a top 12
QB in 2021. Justā¦canāt believe the crap Iām reading.
Just a hunch. But I think it’s probably from people who maybe only became Seahawks fans after or just before Wilson was drafted.
Might actually be able to afford Hawks tickets again in a few weeks. Thatās a positive.
Given that I just posted my negative feelings towards Russ, I’m going to say that this post involves me. I was born in Washington State. Grew up in upstate New York, and stood alone as a Hawks fan in NY throughout the late 90s, all the way until now. I was too young to really care in the early 90s. Played the Stealers in the SB during my senior year of high school. No one said anything negative to me about losing, I would’ve fought them. Where are your roots?
I’ve played football before. Watched it for most of my adult life. I may not have a perfect assessment, but at least I don’t believe I know better than everyone else.
My post was not intended for you. Iām specifically talking about Seahawks Twitter.
I donāt agree with your post, but again, my comment is not geared towards you.
No worries. I just read that the Seahawks fans are 2nd to last in loyalty. The only ones worse are Denver fans. I don’t like my loyalty being in question. I want to win and my thoughts on how that will happen are different than others. I don’t care who’s right, if it works.
Would never question yours or anybody elseās loyalty. We all have different opinions on what we think is right, but I donāt for an instant question that you want whatās best for the franchise.
Agreed. RW3 has legitimate flaws (consistently playing within structure, taking unnecessary sacks, and not feeling comfortable throwing to “NFL open” receivers in the intermediate middle of the field consistently), but his “peak traits” of elite deep ball, extending plays, avoiding turnovers, and overall excellent accuracy usually outweigh the negatives. He’s not at the Rodgers, Mahomes, Brady level and we have to accept that. Still, having a guy who is consistently top 4-8 is something to build around.
On another note, Rob, someone’s made a troll Twitter account of you. Unspeakably lame on that person’s part, but it also certifies you’ve made it! š
It’s possible I focus on the negative with Russ too much. I feel like with the last of half season and start of this season, I don’t have any confidence he’s going to do anything on any particular drive. It seems like I am spending a lot more time disappointed with the offense than being excited. I was more excited when Geno was just winging it, but maybe I’ve just spent too long watching the same guy.
That’s fair man. For me, the end of 2015 had me feeling Russ could legit be the GOAT he was just killing it so early in his career. Then when that happened, I started to think it was the OL, the scheme, the HC, as many fans still contend. I think the last half of 2020was also a last straw for me in that I had to accept that Russ is great but he’s just not at that GOAT/consistent MVP level.
It kind of sucks but, with perspective, it’s still a great spot to be in relative to most other teams.
on a diff topic – – Cards play Niners tomorrow. They get them w/out Jimmy G., and without Kittle. If they are everything they’re currently being touted to be – they should win going away.
think they will?
Good question. Will they be full of themselves after drilling the Rams and suffer a letdown? It IS possible.
What do you think about John Schneider? A big part of his success were in-season trades for impact players at modest prices (Dunlap, Diggs etc.).
These impact trades are now made by Fitterer in North Carolina (completely fleeced the Jaguars on the CJ Henderson trade and also added an impact Player in Gilmore when healthy).
What future does John Schneider have in Seattle since he did not put together the most successful FA or draft classes in recent history?
Keep Schneider for now. The issue with this team as of now isn’t the talent necessarily, it’s the utilization of the players, which is a coaching issue
Not that contracts mean too much, but Schneider’s contract extension was actually longer than Carroll’s. I think he is signed for two additional years beyond PC. I don’t know what that means, but it could be that he is expecting – or expected – to run the show at some point, after Carroll leaves.
Maybe you or someone else said it, but Wilson’s injury could be a good thing in a twisted way. It will expose some of the poor coaching and other deficiencies that Russell has been covering for and force the HC issue. It may expose some of Russell’s passing decisions as well.
Whatever happens, I wonder if Wilson will feel so soured by the wasted years in Seattle, that even if Jody Allen brings in a new HC and GM, he might still just want an entirely fresh start. New team, new city, new coach. Besides, thanks to the Jamal Adams trade, there won’t be many new picks for awhile.
This season sure has a different feel to it. Sort of like watching a car crash instead of a football game.
Some fan comments reflect a sense of betrayal. “Always compete” and “Tell the Truth Mondays” seem like a joke.
Maybe Pete Carroll was just a mediocre coach (who can motivate players), who in 2010/2011, bucked conventional wisdom and hit the jackpot draft wise. He continued drafting against conventional wisdom but it failed badly. Many of his picks almost seemed too cute by a half. He had been able to coast on those early draft picks for years, but now the penny drops.
2015 Lose Division Playoff game to Carolina after barely beating the Minnesota
2016 Lose Division Playoff game to Atlanta after beating the Detroit
2017 NO PLAYOFFS
2018 Lose WildCard Playoff game to Dallas
2019 Lose Division Playoff game to Green Bay after beating Philadelphia
2020 Lose WildCard Playoff game to LA-got EMBARRASSED!
Well, I am seeing 5 play-off seasons in 6 years. So ‘mediocre’ seems a bit harsh. The problem is that the performances are trending downward & not meeting the standards that he set previously.
Def not a RW hater. A perfect plan to build around him with a coach to enhance his strengths and limit his shortcomings. And while we celebrate his many strengths, he does have some issues. But this geno time will be nice to see. It will either reinforce PC with his game manager needs and prove that rw doesn’t fit the system..or it’ll most likely crash and burn in massive flames. The defense and team no longer saved by rw magic. And proof that he was the one doing all.the carrying. This team falling to 5 wins would incite this fan base. Here in Seattle, people have lost patience. I personally want any change. This will always be my team, even if I endure 20.yrs from a dumb move.
Russ has won a lot of games with a terrible o line. Get him some studs up front, maybe an upgrade at RB, and an offensive minded coach and let’s start punching teams in the mouth again.
Yes he’s not Mahomes. Yeas he’s not Brady. But most QBs need support to go all the way.
how do we know that russ with andy reid wouldn’t be as good as mahomes, or mahomes not as good with pete?
Mahomes can’t play defense
Exactly. There we go.
Studs up front and a proper running back, plus DK and Tyler.
Complementary defense not the disaster zone we’re seeing now.
You can win.
Texas A&M is 14 points ahead of Alabama at the half. They are really taking it to the bullies of the SEC. Nick Saban sounded pretty frustrated with his teams performance at the halftime interview.
Alabama dominated that second half. But as “comPete” would say, it’s not how you start – it’s how you finish.
Another example of comP(L)ete PC BS.
The first half does count. Not sure why he couldn’t figure that out after the Panthers took a 35-0 lead on his NFC defending champions team at halftime a number of years ago. Outscoring the Panthers 28-0 after the half was worthless.
Though ‘Bama dominated, A&M did what they needed to do late. Thanks to their great first half. You know, the half PC doesn’t seem to think counts.
The look on Sabans face when Alabama tied the game against a knocked down Texas A&M team, then watched A&M regroup, get back up and drive for a game winning field goal. This game is a classic.
Definitely.
I wonder if LJ Collier would/could be any good as a strong side DE in a 3-4 defense? We know he sucks in a 4-3 but his skill set seems best in a 3-4 (what little “skill” set he has).
I sure hope a team that runs a 3-4 d is willing to find out
How would you guys feel about signing Cam Newton. I know a lot of people are pretty split on it but Iād be for it. Iām not at all sold on Geno, he was awful preseason. A few reasons why Iād like to sign Cam
1. He still is a unique runner, since were probably going to run all the time why not get a unique runner like him.
2. He will bring some swagger to the team, we havenāt had swagger since the LOB Days
3. If this season is gonna suck why not sign Cam, heāll make it more fun for sure.
I know some people love Cam and some people hate him, Iāve always liked him and thought heās a uniquely fun nfl player. Heās a hate him if heās not on your team, I know we all loved Sherm.
I think itās very telling that Cam is still unsigned, essentially through week 5. Unless someone can sign him on a very cheap deal, or itās a current contender who lost their starter and has a real shot at a playoff run, I donāt see him being signed for a while. The Hawks will roll with Geno and rely on dink and dunk ball control until Russ is back.
Cam looked done to me last season. Well, at least after he’d played Seattle’s awful defense.
Yeah he was pretty washed but from what we saw from Geno, why not
Russell is a great QB with certain flaws. Not unique.
Dan Marino is probably my all time favorite QB. As a kid, I loved watching him. No faster release has been or will likely ever be seen. He had a cannon for an arm and could fire it in a split second with laser like accuracy. But he had cement in his shoes. One of the main reasons the dolphins never had a run game with him is he was too slow to do a variety of hand offs. A serious flaw that hindered his offense. Yet, if one puts SB wins aside, you can meaningfully argue he is the greatest passer in the history fo the league, setting records that stood decades not to be broken until the game fundamentally changed, a al Wilt Chamberlain.
But he was flawed.
So is Russ. He’s still goddamned awesome. And it’s absurd to think about finding a different QB now unless for some insane reason another team wants to trade a younger franchise QB to Seattle for him. Which I can’t imagine why any team would ever ponder that.
You keep Russ and work with his strengths. His shortcomings are challenges, they’re not obstacles.
I know this is a RW thead, but if you’re a college football fan…WOW! Every game I saw was incredible. Oklahoma beating Texas in an epic comeback to the last play. Iowa beating Penn State down to the last play in front of one of the best college football crowds I’ve seen (and heard) in awhile. Nebraska taking Michigan down to the last play and barely holding on. And then Texas AM beating Alabama with a last second field goal.
Incredible.
You left another one I watched that was extremely entertaining, Wazzu vs. Oregon St. Outstanding football game.
It was a great day for college sports. And a great day to scout future players!
I wanted Staley too, but unfortunately he got hired already. Sort of my ideal mold in terms of Carroll’s successor. Guess we’ll just have to settle for one of the dozen young offensive gurus laying around under Shanahan, McVay, Reid, etc.
Hope it’s someone that can tailor the offense for this specific QB because I think Waldron is trying to be that guy while staying true to himself, and so far, it’s like, I’m almost missing Schottenheimer. For all the hubbub over the defense and yards, Geno freaking Smith got the ball back with a chance to win it. The game was never out of hand, the offense is just dead right now unless the defense can create some turnovers to give them short field.
Hey Rob, cool that you’re going with press credentials. Let me know what you think of the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium. They are my adopted Premier team and curious about it from a first hand source.
Iāve been to it before, itās a great stadium.
Iāve been going to the London games credentialed for a decade now. Always fun
Man what a terrible trade
He wouldn’t even bring us a 1st round pick back if we trade him, but I’d do it anyways. A wisely used 3rd round pick is more worth than what he has to offer. I don’t think we can get more than a 3rd for Bobby Wagner either. The only players who could get us a first round pick are Wilson and DK, and I wouldn’t trade either of them (OK maybe also Dickson š ). What we need is a coach who can get the best out of the young guys we have and a GM who can make the roster moves to fill in the holes of our OL, DL, DB, LB and even RB.
I would move on now if possible
Just take the dead hit now
Draw a line and move on
Kills me that we had the chance not to extend him and we blew it. This offseason we had a market for him, we could have swapped him for a CB (Miami’s X. Howard?) or for two 2nd round picks in consecutive years and we would have not thrown away 17.5 mil for a guy who should be Ryan Neal’s backup.
And terrible “style” coach… š¬
Look I’ve been as down on Adams’ play as anyone, but that jumper is sick. Keep collecting those checks Alan!
Agreed. If he’s going to cost us being the worst safety in football, he better atleast rock solid outfits to pressers. He he goes full cam, we gotta boycott.
Agree 100%. Am sick of people saying let’s trade RW and get a QB in r1 or r2…..it’s not that easy! The Jets have been waiting 50 odd years and even then it’s far to early to make a call on Zach Wilson. We need RW, we want RW. It won’t take a massive shift in philosophy to get more out of him by any potential incoming (modern) coach.
It’s quite surreal that with Wilson out the best player on the roster is the punter. That’s an outrageous state of affairs. Tricky situation moving forward, a complete tear down is pretty clearly needed, but is Wilson going to be happy to stay put for another two, three years, while things hopefully get rejuvenated around him? Not sure I would be if I was him. If someone feels like ponying up in a big way, I think it’s going to be pretty hard not to take what’s on the table and clear the slate.
I saw someone mentioning bringing Cam in above, It would be extremely fun but if Wilson was threatened by Sherman and Bennett there’s less than no chance they’re bringing Cam into that locker room. Like him or not, he’s got planetary levels of gravity, everything becomes about him, and players love him. Way too much personality for a Wilson-led Seahawks.
The only hindrance to me about if russ left comes down as Rob touched on to thst the teams lsst year he was reportedly willing to go to would still be works in progress but then they would be minus draft capital.
Really for russ to go anywhere you’d need a team kind of with the seahawks mindset that “we just need the qb piece,” to win.
I think the team under a lot of new leadership could right the ship if , and we will find out real quick, we find out that Wilson himself is worth 8 wins above replacement.
It’s boring and nothing is this easy but let’s start with a probably high 2nd round draft pick next year: how about with the help of Hutchinson the team gets an earthmover for a guard or a center that isn’t some light “three positions for one,” value option. And maybe is Unger level to just for a change over these last years stop, slow, or minimize defensive pressure.
That’s just a start
The key to winning needs to be this:
Prioritise the DL & OL and get a really good RB. Forget ideal profiles. Just get one of these runners who teams actually fear and can stay on the field.
Smash opponents up front. Rush the passer.
Coaches capable of coming up with detailed, progressive schemes.
Thatās all it takes. Itās not rocket science. This team can win again quickly.
The team needs two tackles, a center, a RB, a CB, and a pass rusher that can anchor the DL for a few years. A good RB can be found in middle rounds, but everything else ideally needs high picks. Maybe find a center in free agency? After that, who knows.
Iām willing to roll with Duane Brown and maybe even Shell. They need a center badly. Iām not that impressed with Jackson so far. Get me a young, pissed off G and C.
A quality RB is a must. Better cornerbacks a must. Better pass rushers, a must.
Rob do you think D. Taylor has what it takes to develop fast in a starting pass rusher?
I donāt know. Itās too early to say. Obviously itās very positive that heās contributing. Hopefully theyāll increase his snaps in the coming weeks.
Centers, guards, CBs, and pass rushers all need first or second round picks. Rebuilding that way might take three years, if a new regime can stick the landing in drafts. Do you think Russ would stay for that, after getting a good coach (which is also a gamble)?
I donāt think itās as difficult as youāre suggesting to get those players quickly
You know a lot more about college prospects than I do. My big thing is the OL, and it just seems really difficult to draft and develop those positions. My football wishlist starts and ends up front. After that even mediocre RBs can be successful. But even drafting good prospects on the line usually means a season or two developing, and adapting to the NFL. Whoever takes the reigns of this team needs to find an answer to Aaron Donald, and the Rams. As it is, I donāt want to see another game where Aaron Donald is single handedly disrupting our offense, and breaking fingers in the process.
really wish they’d drafted Creed this year.
Nothing against Eskridge, just would be nice to feel like we had one of our big holes filled, and with a potentially elite player.
Ditto on Creed
I’m going to write to Jody Allen today. She is obviously clueless as to everything that has been discussed here for a long time.
Maybe if she hears from us fans she can get the glimpse of how it feels to us. WE invest tons of time, money, and anguish / joy with this team and many of us have done it for decades.
This is the worst I have seen it and that includes ALL decades……
Pete, thanks for all but GTFO, John?….Ditto.
Let me explain myself better. I was not questioning your conclusion, only your method at arriving at it and how it came across as dismissive to anyone that said otherwise. I think its funny when someone uses a highlight reel as a basis to support a point or a fact. Your graphs, on the other hand clearly show Russ is more than capable of throwing accurately to all areas of the field. What they don’t show is what areas of the field Russ prefers to throw to, which was my point.
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2019/9/13/20864035/heat-mapping-seattle-seahawks-qb-russell-wilson-throws-parts-field-patrick-mahomes
As to your response “Please donāt come at me with āyou can Google it.ā You Google it. You bring the facts to the discussion.”
Point taken, in the future I will do so.
Their are a lot of people talking about Russ’s shortcomings right now, without pointing out just how good he is. I think this is being misconstrued as Russell bashing, while in most cases its probably more of an oversight. Russ clearly has holes in his game, things he has done since he’s been in the league. People are pointing that out and many of us talk about it regularly.
Russel has had good tight ends, why doesn’t he utilize them more? Why does Russ seem to have difficulty throwing screen passes? Why doesn’t he throw short to intermediate passes over the middle more often? Why does he sometimes lock on to a receiver until the pocket collapses and he forced to scramble or takes a sack, instead of throwing a check down pass? Russ is a great quarterback, as has been pointed out many times here, quarterbacks with his talent, athleticism and ability are rare and difficult to find in the draft and were lucky to have him. But at the same time it doesn’t make it wrong to discuss how well he plays.
I still can’t believe they didn’t draft a center. Nothing against Eskridge, but we already have two Ferrari’s in the garage. We need a freaking Hummer to get us to the top of the mountain.
Yup
But itās indicative of their āwe want to be a power running teamā in one breath and then they draft for finesse
There is no coherent philosophy, no defined identity, and we operate under a tiny margin of error. This organization is a mess.
the running game has zero consistency and scares no one.
Is there any greater indictment of Pete than that he can’t build a team that can play in the style of his own “vision”.?
Thought provoking piece and a good place to start a discussion from.
As usual, I’ll play devils advocate here.
To be honest, I think RW is done in this league within a season or two. He has lost his wheels, he is one-dimensional, I really doubt his second reads and he has not shown anything to improve his intermediate game. Not only is he “not perfect”, he also cherishes the same crony-style doing things as PC. Either you’re one of his guys, or you’re not.
People should ask themselves the following question: is he a guy that takes his #5 receiver out for 200 hrs of extra practice? Because this is what Brady did with Scott Miller. The result is well known.
His slump coincides with our running game being an absolute joke. Compared to 2014, we are lacking over 70 yd/g. And you don’t get those yards without investing big into the OL, and take one of those premier halfbacks. You cannot invest big, as long as your drafting is crap, your FA unimaginative, your trades wishful thinking, WHILE you continue to pay your QB premium money.
No, we should clean the house from all distractions. Get what is possible from BWagz, Adams, DK (lets get real here, we won’t pay two WRs!), RW.
We should ask the Jets for a Wilson for Wilson deal, possibly getting our 2022 pick back in the process. If they don’t bite, give them Adams as a sweeter.
And then let’s go into 2022 draft with a clear concentration on the trenches. Evan Neal looks as good as every OT drafted R1 in the last three seasons. Zion Nelson, Sean Rhyan, Obinna Eze, Rasheed Walker,… lots of depth. Alternatively, let’s get one of those premier pass rushers.
Iām not sure why youāve come to that conclusion with Wilson.
The guy has had to play with no help from the running game or defense.
Seems like heās spent plenty of time working with his WRās to me.
His production is still high level.
Iām sat watching Z.Wilson vs M.Ryan. I think people take RW for granted.
You can easily pay a QB and succeedā¦ if you donāt totally botch the draft and FA.
Exactly. Look at the state of the franchise if they’d simply drafted TJ Watt over McDowell and Chubb over Penny. Those moves would have affected future moves and this franchise would probably be competing for a Super Bowl this year, rather than pondering the future. With Watt, there wouldn’t have needed to be the desperation for Adams and they would have had their #1 and #3 picks last year to have added more youth to this old and broken down roster.
so frustrating, especially when those would have been clear and logical moves.
But they haven’t. And to adjust for this to happen lasts years. Years RW doesn’t have, and that he possibly no longer wants to waste.
Even if we get another FO and retain RW, we have nothing to work with. As it stands, we will possibly pick in the 40 range first. If the FO doesn’t send or second rounder 2022 to greener pastures.
And yes, if we had drafted the TJ Watts and Nick Chubbs of the world, we would look better. But we haven’t, for at least 8 years. As a result, this team is rotten to the bones. It’s not another player here, a bum less there. It’s an utter lack of quality at multiple positions.
Wilsons second season half and his 2021 games were completely underwhelming. His next contract will be in the 45m region, and apart from me questioning value for money here, I cannot bear another contract opera. It is one of the reasons this team is breaking.
If they have nothing to work with, trading Wilson away and then likely needing to use that stock to get another QB somehow will simply put you in the exact same situation.
You donāt need years to turn a team around. Seattle have very good core players. They need to improve in certain areas and have new coaches and schemes and they can be good again quickly (see: GB).
Wilson had a poor end to 2020 but he has a 90 PFF grade this season. He wasnāt flawless but underwhelming? Not for me.
Contract isnāt an issue. Itās the clash of philosophies.
I tuned out about specifics last year of course always following the blog and podcasts….
I guess i didn’t realize how rudiculously spoiled we all have become. Through the last 8 regular season games of last year and just five of this year Wildon is 22 td/ to 6 int’s in 13 games. It’s strange when a qb throws 10/ 1 in five games with a near 70% and he sucks.
I’ll not make this ponderous and wonky but facts are facts: from 2017 seattle’s defense has averaged a 14-15 ranking and carson had one great and two good seasons and yes……Wilson is super annoying. But, he might be the only reason seattle has remained winning in four and some change years.
It took the Packers 2017 and 2018 to rebuild around Aaron Rodgers, missing the playoffs in those years. In the drafts following those years, they picked Jaire Alexander, Darnell Savage and Rashan Gary with first rounders, and Elgton Jenkins with a high second rounder. Still, in 2020 they picked a QB.
As we are lacking a first rounder in 2021 and nobody will give us one for anybody of our indespensable “very good core players” outside of RW, a rebuild with two years of playoff absence will cost the Seahawks three years, minimum.
And we are underestimating the holes this roster has. This is a team, that enables 100 yd/g more, than it creates. With RW! It has position groups that are completely made out of fringe and backup players. Subtract Duane Brown, and the OL belongs to them. Subtract Bwagz, and LB turns into a weak spot. Or, wait – take their 68.5 and 66.6 ratings, and pin them as liabilities. Both players are getting long in the tooth and are not playing to their former self.
True, RW has a great rating. Reflecting, that too much is placed upon his shoulders, and his shoulders only. He was on the way to below 4,000 yd passing and 32 TDs. Still valid numbers, but on a markedly downward trajectory. Play him two deep, and he is finished. He will never again match Justin Herbert or Patrick Mahomes.
And we are living in a world, where Davis Mills adds 311 yd on the Pats D. The only 300yd+ game of RW in 2021 was vs Titans. His last in 2020 was vs. Bills.
RWs contract comes at a heavy price. Every season, we are having 25 new holes on the roster and $45m to spend. Why haven’t we paid Clark? We didn’t pay him, because we have to pay the QB.
Finally, our situation… GBs adversaries are Vikes, Bears and Lions.
Ours are Rams, 49ers and Cards. Every one of those teams changed horses at QB, when it was due. They are much better managed and coached than the Seahawks. Every of those teams is thick of talent.
Rodgers played seven games in 2017.
They were not ‘rebuilding’ in 2017 and 2018. These were the last two years of Mike McCarthy’s reign.
In 2019, when they appointed Matt LaFleur, they immediately won 13-3 and made the NFC Championship game, then repeated that act in 2020.
You’re just making statements with no tangible evidence to try and validate your point. I could list Metcalf, Lewis, Taylor and say ‘look — they’ve been rebuilding in 2019 and 2020. Now if they get their Matt LeFleur, they’ll be a Championship team again’.
Nobody is doing that. You seem to have forgotten everything I’ve written for 18 months.
I’m well aware of the holes. I just emphatically disagree with you that it’s not possible to turn things around with a good off-season. Look at the Cowboys this year after going 6-10. The Buccs were 7-9 in 2019. What happened next?
And one big game of production smashes that argument out of the water.
Ah yes. If only teams had spent the last decade playing two-deep every week. He wouldn’t be a future Hall-of-Famer after all…
Yeah, Mahomes was ace last night.
Flawless.
I know eh, bloody Wilson with his only one +300 yard game. Rubbish.
Of course he had 298 vs Minnesota but those two yards are massive and definitely validate your argument…
Arizona had Mike Glennon in 2018. They earned the #1 overall pick and took Kyler Murray.
They didn’t ‘swap out a quarterback’.
Matt Stafford looked amazing on Thursday… well worth two firsts and a contract dump.
And then there’s Trey Lance.
Honestly. I read stuff like this and want to hit the whiskey. The taking for granted of RW is remarkable among sections of the fan base. He’s not flawless but he’s exceptionally good and it’s time we acknowledged that.
Yeah, Mahomes was not that great behind his hollow Seahawks-style rag-tag OL. That’s how you ruin a dynasty, I guess?
The Cowboys and Bucs examples are proving my point even better. They both missed multiple playoffs the last five seasons, they drafted really well, and where hit and miss in FA. To acquire, identify and keep the talent required, it took time… years, picks and resignings.
And – in the Bucs case – a healthy dose of opportunism. May I remind ourselves on the question if we should sign Leonard Fournette?
To short circuit development by depending heavily on FA can save you possibly a year. If you are not into the top notch, what you get is a parade of backups and worn outs. It is the same crap we are talking ourselves into right now, year after year. And yes, every year, RW makes the ship look sitting pretty on the Mississippi.
But it’s not, and the Seahawks roster is best described by the “very good core players”‘ PFF ratings. 58.8 (after 70.2 in 2020), 82.8 and 71.5; every player outside of Metcalf and Taylor got worse. We are measurably weak at S, CB, LB, DE, TE, RB and on most, if not all OL spots. Our WR depth is exactly two.
The indisputable result: 351 yd/g offense, which is worst since 2017. And I really fail to see, how our franchise QB, according to some sources deep into the Waldron signing, can be exempted from criticism here. He shouldn’t get a free ride. And certainly not a say in selecting another HC.
And no, I’m not taking RW for granted. I want him to thrive and get his deserved second ring. But realistically that won’t ever happen in Seattle. At the pace this franchise is wasting him, he will be done, soon.
It wasnāt just opportunism in TB
And you are taking RW for granted
This article and thread is spot on. RW, despite flaws, is this franchise’s best-ever QB, and it’s not even close. Not only should they keep him and jettison PC, they should allow him to be an active participant in the selection of the new HC in the same way players like Brees or Manning would be in a similar situation.
PC was an amazing coach for us and this past decade has been the greatest in franchise history (and I go way back as a fan – all the way to 1987). He was brilliant at building a winner. Unfortunately, once the team was built, he had no idea where to go next. His moves have stunk of a strange mix of hubris, desperation, and incompetence for the past number of years. I would like to say his model is now broken, but I don’t actually think there is a model; just a hodgepodge mix of misfires with no apparent rhyme or reason.
Iām always dumbfounded by how many people will dismiss valid criticism of RW as hate and feel heās beyond examination. He can be both a future HOF QB and have areas of his game that warrant examination and improvement. However, there is a large portion of the fan base and media who will go to great lengths to shift blame from him to others as a way to keep the myth alive. Every year, itās a new scapegoat; the HC is too stubborn, the OC (pick any of the 3 heās had) canāt design a modern offense and is limiting RW, the OL is terrible, too much investment in the Def and RW doesnāt have the personnel to succeed, etcā¦
This constant shifting of blame onto others to avoid any criticism of one is unhealthy. You canāt do that in business. Accountability starts at the top. We saw this happen when the narrative was that the receivers werenāt getting open as a reason Russ was taking sacks or the offense was failing to advance. After a while, it got to people in the WR room. Baldwin famously said āIām always openā and he was right. While Seattle hasnāt drafted HOF caliber OL players, they took an unfair amount of blame. Some of the ābustsā have left to be rated higher than average and starters; Ifedi, Glowinski, Fant, etcā¦
The bottom line is that, without honest assessment and unwillingness to ask for more of RW, we will never see him realize his full potential. Thatās a real shame.
And Iām always dumbfounded when people read an article which literally says there are valid criticisms and that RW isnāt flawless, then make reference to a very specific section of the fan base who appear to have an issue with him, then post what you did above.
Itās almost like you havenāt read the piece.
I read the article and my response was still about what Iām seeing in the comment sections and, in part, in the article. You say there are valid criticisms, but those usually get very little press and often dismissed as hate. Everything boils down to āwho got to goā rather than how do we improve with a lot of talent on the roster and in the FO. Every year, the fan base picks a fall guy to take all the blame for failing to meet expectations. Ultimately, itās on Pete, because heās responsible for making sure everyone gets coached up, and through 3 OCs and a number of coaching changes, the same deficiencies still exist in RWās game. I guess he prioritized his QBās ego over his potential with a more concentrated effort in coaching up those missing parts of the game. I guess he would rather have the good with the bad than risk alienating his star. Itās a shame, because itās just a few tweaks keeping RW from being undeniably top 10 of all time, and not from just a statistical sense.
You are correct Glaze, there are people in the comments section that won’t accept criticisms of Russell Wilson and pass it off as hate, bashing or simply not knowing what your talking about. You have to expect that as Russ does have Hero Status in and around the PNW and rightly so, he’s earned that.
As for Rob’s articles, I believe he’s honest, unbiased and supports his opinions well with facts. And I have to say he consistently identifies issues and concerns with the Seahawks far in advance of the local media and other sources. You heard it here first, is usually a very accurate description of this blog!
People are going to have thoughts and opinions, both good and bad, as a participant here you have to be accepting of that.
I think a poor o line and stale play calling has been a consistent factor for several years now, and Russ has carried this team to winning seasons. Nobody – on this site at least – is claiming he’s perfect, but the issues listed above far outway Russ’ flaws imo.
Well, those have definitely been a popular narrative that leads people to a lot of speculation without data. The āunimaginative play callingā has transcended 3 offensive coordinators, so the popular (& favorable to RW) is that PeTe must be over riding his OCs and theyāre figureheads for āPeteballā, except how often is the play that is ran the same as what was called? How often does RW audible out of the call? We know he frequently changes the play at the line. We arenāt privy to that info to make the right assessment on who is making these āunimaginativeā play calls. Second, how much of the playbook is not used, because RW isnāt as good at attacking those areas of the field or are limited in effectiveness by his style of play? We canāt be certain, although Thursday was as close of a look as we have gotten. We had a significantly less talented and competent QB running plays from the same playbook with great success, in a game situation where SEA still had an opportunity to come back (meaning the defense wasnāt in preserve the lead mode). It was a great simulation, because you replaced a rare talent with a generic player who is capable of making every throw, but only at an average level, and he found success. It was the same OL, same play calls, against the same defense.
As far as the sub par OL play, our OL hasnāt been great, but are better than fans give them credit. They have a more difficult challenge than many other teams. RW style of play requires them to block deeper, hold blocks longer, and have more awareness of where the QB is than in most teams. The deep dropbacks and escaping backwards out of the pocket leads to holds, gaps in blocking, and difficulty in passing off blocks. Some of the most maligned on our OL have left and became average to above average starters, where āweā (fans) said they didnāt belong in the NFL. Sacks and, to a lesser extent, holds are both the fault of the OL and QB. Even false starts are influenced by this.
Through all 3 OC’s I have only seen one change to the overall scheme, and that was last year, and it lasted half a season.
People complain about the passing over the middle but that is something the HC does not want to do. We see sprinkles of it but for the most part Pete’s major philosophy is about not throwing into the middle of the field. He gets this because his belief from his defense philosophy; allow the throws into the middle, come down hill on the receivers and force the tip, over throw, or dislodge the ball to create turnovers.
The OL system stinks. I think this has less to do with the players and more with a need to change fundamentally with what they are teaching or how they are running it. Plus the lack of wanting to go out and get stud proven OL.
Pete wants QBs to nickel and dime his defense up field. Teams going on 6 play drives where they’re getting 15 yard chunks at a time is not by design at all. It’s piss poor play in the secondary, which has to do with the players and poor coaching.
There’s a lot of factors as to why Wilson doesn’t throw to the intermediate middle portion of the field the way other QBs do, but most of them have to do with his own tendencies as a QB. If you’re honest enough to admit to yourself what they may be, it actually makes a ton of sense as to why he’s not particularly strong in that area. He’ll go there, here and there but I’d say most of those throws are the kind of windows most NFL QBs need to be able to complete. Not the type of passes I see Brady fitting balls into.
You saw be honest with myself but you give no reason for rw tendencies. I think you missed my point of the D scheme. I was stating why Pete avoids throwing to the middle, because he wants teams to do this against him. He believes throwing into the middle is the best way to create turn overs. I think RW has some shortcomings but for the most part plays with in what the head coach wants him to do.
No I understood, I just don’t agree with the narrative is all.
You could easily also argue that Wilson, himself, knows that, thus he chooses not to attack the middle more aggressively like he does the boundary areas. One of the few passes he threw there last game, he likely thought it was 100% open and it looked like it as it happened on screen, but it ended up as an early turnover. That’s just the risk you take there.
You can argue that Wilson knows that, because he does. It is not an opinion but a fact that Pete avoids the middle. He has stated it publicly and written in articles.
Well I don’t think I need to look up the data on the online play since 2017. The eye test don’t lie. Sowell. Fant, Odiambo, Ifedi, Posic, Fuller. Yes Russ sometimes holds the ball to long. I’m not disagreeing with the ‘Russ has his Flaws’ argument, I just agree with Rob that he’s way better than any alternative.
I just think we have a brighter future with Russ.
My point is not that we should get rid of Russ, but we shouldnāt be complacent in accepting the good with the bad. He has all the ability and talent. We just need to demand more. We need him to see his flaws and work on them, rather than practicing deep balls in San Diego in the off-season. We know you can throw those. I think people are scared to be critical of his flaws precisely because heās the best weāve ever had. Weād be a better team with a RW who fixed his inconsistent depth of drop, learned to dance in the pocket, made quick reads, and threw the ball away rather than taking a 15y sack
If I was ownership, I would feel like I needed to know who was responsible for so many of the poor decisions leading up to where we are at today. For instance, it is Pete Carroll responsible for things like the JA trade, pulling the trigger on Rashaad Penny instead of Chubb etc… or does JS have a large part to play in all this. It matters a lot when you’re deciding to change philosophies and coaching staffs and/or transitioning PC to a VP or CEO role. Would JS thrive when not under the thumb of PC? Or is PC too loyal to a guy who has made this many mistakes. Does ownership give a s*** and are they willing to sell more quickly than thought? The potential pitfalls are many and things could go much more poorly than they already have
My guess is that it was Carroll that got desperate for Adams. He’s the one with final say. I can’t imagine any competent GM being okay with mortgaging the future for a strong safety, but if they were ordered to get the deal done – then they have to do what they’re told.
The Penny/Chubb debate is funny. There was a lot more love on this blog for Chubb (and Jones) than any other RB that year (available when the Hawks picked), but JS was smug when he talked about the Lions wanting to trade for Penny right after they drafted him. He was so smug it was like he was so smart and everyone else was so dumb, yet Chubb is a stud and franchise back and Penny sucks. I’m thinking Pete and John both share some blame on that one.
It’s pretty clear that Pete thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room (except for Tater, of course).
That’s why he gets so snarky and/or defensive when someone dares confront him on his mistakes. He doesn’t feel anyone has the right to do that.
It’s really coming out now when things are obviously falling apart.
I expect more “pissy Pete” going forward.
Pete said something along the lines of, āyou guys wonāt understand thisā on Friday before explaining something really basic
Pete also made the snarky comment that Jamal is impacting games in ways we can’t see. In other words we don’t understand football enough to see how good Jamal is.
He’d probably tell reporters that Malik ATV is better than TJ Watt, too. But we’re all too stupid to know better.
Let me be clear, the future should be Wilson for the Seahawks.
Anything necessary to make that happen should be done.
But I have 2 concerns that may render this debate mute.
1. Will ownership snap out of it? They sure didn’t seem to last year. Carroll still has the keys and smugly dismissed off season concerns at QB as media invention. Is there any guarantee that ownership will achieve enlightenment that they need to stop listening to Carroll and prioritize Wilson? I’m not so sure.
2. But let’s say that Carroll rides off (something I agree is VERY possible if the rest of the season goes as I expect), is there any guarantee that ownership will then build the team and future around Wilson? Not necessarily and it could be as much a placeholder/interim management while they look for a buyer.
3. Lastly, and I think most concerning. Will Wilson want to give it more time? Barring some very good fortune a combination of age (Wagner), bad decisions (Addams) and bad luck (RB) make it unlikely that the Seahawks will be able to meaningfully turn it around in 2022. So that means asking Wilson to wait not only this season, but at least one more. That versus some other teams that he might think are closer, that he might think didn’t need to be convinced to run things his way after several wasted seasons.
At the end of the day, even with big organizational changes I’m not sure that Wilson will want to stay a Seahawk. One thing is for certain. Ownership will have to make it crystal clear as soon as they can that Wilson is the future and they will be taking immediate actions to show him so. If they are distant or play coy Wilson’s mind may very well be made up before season’s end.
Looking at JS first rd drafts
2010 – okung, thomas
2011 – carpenter
2012 – irvin (passed on fletcher cox)
2013 – traded for harvin
2014 – traded to minnesota drafted paul richardson
2015 – traded for graham
2016 – ifedi
2017 – traded drafted mcdowell
2018 – penny
2019 – collier
2020 – brooks
2021 – traded for adams
2022 – traded for adams
That is about as ugly as it gets, later rounds somewhat better, the question is if pete is making picks why would john sign a new contract, you would think he would want his own domain, or maybe he agreed with the picks and has become just a yes man raking in the money
After 2010 – that is absolutely disgusting, ugly and embarrassing. The return on those investments have to rank among the worst in the NFL. Ruskell is the only reason they had a pair of 1st round picks in 2010 to begin with. Sad.
Kind of makes you feel sick thinking about what could have been if they hadn’t made those bad picks and trades….
It does make me think about all the press conferences where they’ve indicated they dont care what everyone else thinks about yet another surprising first pick.
No doubt they’ve done some great things later in drafts, but you’d think theyve have realised it’s them who are wrong and not everyone else. It’s almost like they should just outsource their first round pick.
We know three things about the ownership/GM/HC/QB totem pole of the Seahawks:
1) Jody Allen (and her brain trust…whoever comprises that) recently re-upped both PC and JS. She apparently viewed them/trusted them to at least keep the franchise stable until she decides what to do with it
2) PC is now the default authority for all major decisions regarding the franchise’s personnel moves
3) RW is an unhappy camper with the present state of the franchise
The odds are clearly in the favor of the breaking apart of this current triangle power structure. The wild card is that nobody, none of us has any idea what Jody Allen/ownership will do when when the PC/RW drama reaches its inevitable hilt this coming off-season.
Even if PC resigns (as Rob guesses might be the case) we don’t have a clue what she/ownership will do? Who would make the choice of the next HC? Would JS? Would he become elevated in this way? Would somebody else besides JS assume a more powerful role? Would she fire JS? Who would then select the next GM?
Point being, if PC resigns it creates a huge power vacuum and nobody has a clue as to how it’s going to be filled.
My best guess is that RW is going to force his way out regardless of whether or not PC stays or goes. He won’t want to stay with PC in charge, and he equally sees just how tenuous the decision making and authority structure of the franchise would be if PC leaves.
IMO, whatever one thinks of RW, he’s gone after this season. I suppose one could argue that a new HC/GM team could entice him to want to stay, but I’d bet against that. I think this bridge has been burned, that trust has been too damaged or lost, that getting this franchise back to the level he wants will either take too long or be too iffy of a proposition for him to believe in it enough.
Just my opinion.
There are approximately 15 humans on the planet who can play NFL QB at a high level, and I’m being generous with that approximation. RW is one of those guys.
It’s not that difficult.
The trade for 33 is a standalone fireable offense. That’s before taking into account the loss of confidence the face of the franchise shows in leadership, the sub-miserable record of drafting and FA signing, and ongoing game planning and adjustment issues – sorry, I should have said, “game planning.”
It’s not that difficult.
And yet I have almost 100% confidence that RW will be gone and Pete will be back for another run, super-pumped and ready to get after it. I hope I’m wrong.
I don’t know man, you’re talking sullied legacy if he comes back and they go 6-11 or 5-12 and people say that the last 7 or so years of contending were because of Wilson not Pete.
Maybe I’m just desperately hoping it doesn’t come to pass as you’re predicted. I admit I do think it’s possible, sadly.
15 guys in North America. It bothers me when people forget that most of the world doesn’t play American football. Also, the ‘World Series’ kind of makes the rest of the world who doesn’t play it (majority) laugh.
And the pedantic point of this? Has the NFL missed on a treasure trove of QBs stashed away, waiting to be discovered?
Yes, at present, there are 15 humans who play the position at a very high level. In the freaking galaxy, if you like.
If you feel that with just a little training, you could be the next Justin Herbert, get to it – great riches await.
It bothers me when people read a snippet of true wisdom from Readers Digest and set about confirming the original statement, even though it escapes them.
Let me tell you about Miss Universe…
If you’re not watching the Bengals v. Packers game you’re missing another highly entertaining game this weekend (after a bunch of similar college games yesterday).
Went to the London game today.
Z Wilson was poor
Seattle definitely need to keep R Wilson and come with a plan to move on from PC.. Retiring with a big fanfare thank you Pete would be best as the current system is feeling/looking tied/worn out
If that’s the case the talk of a more involved passing attack should stop. Slants, check downs and a quick passing game isn’t coming with wilson at qb. All the blame for that has been put on Pete but it’s looking more and more that’s its Wilson’s doing.
That’s the big dilemma at Seattle is it Pete’s coaching or Russell s game play/interpretation of?
Well, look at Peteās coaching on defense
Kevin Harlan calling Chargers v. Browns on CBS right now.
(Good game too)
Mik McDowell with the sack for Cleveland. Sigh š
Good to see Malik seemingly getting his life/career back on track. The man was as close to rock bottom as it gets. Hopefully he can keep it on the rails and live as an example for others who find themselves at a deficit, be it of their own creation or otherwise.
Harlan is a treasure
The Chargers OC, Joe Lombardi, was the Saints QBs coach during Drew Brees best years. He went to Seattle Prep high school. Heās Vince Lombardiās grandson. He had great success with Sean Payton and Drew Brees, and now has Justin Herbert looking like a star. Surely Wilson might want to play for someone like him, and he grew up in Seattle.
I don’t know man just saw Herbert pass up a sure fire 1st down for a long contested catch throw that was incomplete. Do we want Lombardi if his QB does that?
Weird too cuz I thought Russell was the only QB that did those kinds of things.
Big Mike- seattle has “only,” won 10.5 games a year since 2017 because of Wilson. And since he refuses to throw to TE’s it’s his fault that a 14th ranked defense (average over those years) and a very average (and dropping) running attack haven’t won more games…..w/o a number one defense a game changing running attack Wilson was 10td/1 int this year which is no where near good enough to win in today’s nfl…..just because the FO drafted multiple times over the best dressed safety and a bunch of guys who can barely play in collier, and mcdowell (except for on other teams) and an out of shape RB it’s the lack of crossing routes that are the reason we’ve had “only” winning seasons and zero championships….get whatever coach you want with a lineage to Seattle but since Wilson only got 100 wins because of the LOB and didn’t a single game since 2015 what good is a new coach really gonna do?
And the last 2 years I’d have killed to have the 14th ranked defense Peter. But as you pointed out, we do have the best dressed safety so there’s that. I mean I need to see clearly what’s important here. I appreciate you helping me do so.
Man what a catch by Moore.
Rob, what happens to JS if PC retires? Is JS also held back by Peteās philosophy or has he just lost the magic? Are there any good candidates to replace him as GM?
I donāt have any names but I think change is change
Aaron Levine gets a one on one interview with Pete Carroll and his best question is ‘what are the questions you think need to be answered going forward?’ delivered in an almost apologetic tone.
No questions about Jamal Adams.
Aaron, you asked a great question about Russ’ success when calling his own plays, and posted it on Twitter instead of asking it of Pete Carroll.
You’ve proven you have the capacity to ask interesting questions.
Shame you don’t take advantage of your opportunities.
This is the problem
Must be too early in the season to flex out ā¶Seattle’s game against the stealers next Sunday or I’m guessing NBC would have.
I looked it up because I’m going and wanted to be sure.
The NFL can flex it but it has to announce 12 days in advance, which they haven’t done (and Russ wasn’t hurt at that point) so it’s staying.
https://www.nfl.com/schedules/flexible-scheduling-procedures
Thanks cha, and I hope the Hawks do the unexpected and get a win for you this time around.
I hate to ask this, but…would Pete ever consider using our 2023 1st rounder as a bargaining chip before the trade deadline? The guy is 70 years old. He presumably has no interest in a revamp that will take years to come to fruition. He acted desperately in getting Adams, and that was before Russ got injured. He might feel similarly desperate to go get a top center to make sure Russ stays healthy once he gets back.
My fear is we make the current trend worse. A handful of talented individuals, insufficient depth, and insufficient capital to replenish talent. We’re going in that direction already. Pete is implicitly dismissing it as an issue, like he’s just counting on John Schneider to wave his magic wand on draft day and conjure up a bunch of extra draft picks because that’s what he always does.
I would like Joe Brady personally. I just like the Offensive concepts better. I feel like he can get tough and be a bully when needed. I’ve thought Daboll is too finesse with his 55 pass attempts but he is doing well tonight running the ball.
Generally agreed.
Why would Russ stick around, assuming a new HC will want a new OC?
Another year to learn another new system?
Wouldn’t Russ rather be somewhere that everyone else knows the system and he’s the only one who has to learn it?
This is what he did when he transfered to Wisconsin, with a relative measure of success.
Think the most likely outcome is both PC and RW leave after this year
Some dark times ahead…
We don’t know what lies ahead, assuming “dark times” is kind of a deafeatist attitude. What we do know is, with this current front office and coaching staff we can aspire to exactly what we’ve shown, nothing. I don’t care how many wins we have if we’re not making serious playoff runs. What’s the worst that could happen, we miss the playoffs entirely instead of losing during wildcard or divisional? We actually re-up on picks that we’ve long misused?
This era could be over, should be over, and I welcome it.
So if any Seahawks fans forgot what a good defense looks like, I hope yāall are watching the bills/chiefs game. Bills are putting on a defensive clinic, turn overs, team tackles, stiff against run, challenging passes, basically the complete opposite of our defense.
Score 31-13 bottom of the third, against MAHOMES. Bills have the D to go to the super bowl, easy.
I’m wondering if Brady has killed another potential dynasty. Did it to the Seahawks some years ago. KC is not looking as unbeatable as they used to. They look like they’re about to lose in the wildcard this year. This could change, but they’re about to have a losing record after 5 games.
KC does feel a bit like Seattle coming off 48/49.
Unless you’re Tom Brady, if you want to stack more than one Super Bowl in a row together, you have to strike while you can. Because the rest of the league isn’t waiting around, and in this case, Allen and Herbert are beginning to look every bit of Mahomes’ worthy contemporaries, with better rosters around them.
And look at the NFC in the time since the Hawks won the conference back to back, it has had a unique champion every season. Including Rivera’s Panthers, Quinn’s Falcons, and Shanahan’s 49ers, all who reverted to mediocrity or worse shortly thereafter. None of those champions being the Packers or Saints, even with HOF QBs.
The league is structured for parity. Brady has broken that model to some degree, but it holds true for the most part.
At least we’re not the only team wasting a generational QB…
The difference, seems to me, is that Reid and Mahomes are philosophically aligned. KC has largely built their team to support their franchise QB. After their O-line got torched during the Super Bowl, they went out and added eight new offensive lineman including Orlando Brown and Creed Humphrey. Compare that to PC/JS trading for Gabe Jackson (who was about to be cut) and their total complacency regarding the center position, not to mention left tackle. KC also went out and got Josh Gordon to give Mahomes another weapon. Wilson got Gerald Everett FFS.
Good article Rob. I hope coach Pete Carroll retire soon and real rebuilding begins. If everything fall in place it will take at least 3 years for Hawks to be contender. Thanks for throwing some suggestion on next coach.
Look at all the good teams.. most have an offensive minded HC. NFC West is set with HCs except Seattle, letās get Brady or Daboll before we lose them. Many OC to HC recent hires are doing great.
I keep wondering…. if Paul Allen (rest in peace) was still here would we be more confident about a possible HC and Front office change next season?
Yes. 100%.
Such a can of worms question for me. Would he signed off on Jamal trade? Would he have shelled out for Clowney? Would he reprimand JS for bad drafts? Would he push for better coordinators? He is also a guy that seemed to have a good relationship with his stars (Dame Lillard). Lots of what ifs
I agree to some extent.
I agree that the FO needs to be gone. And I also agree that we shouldn’t lose Russ.
BUT
I don’t see this team be a real contender with a new FO.
We won’t have an LT soon. We don’t have a good C. We won’t have an OG (Jackson is not a young guy), and not sure about our RT’s talent…
Don’t know if we can keep DK if he demands 20m or more. Carson can’t stay healthy and run 25 times a game. Collins is good, but not great. I like Dissly, but he’s not special, and I don’t see Parkinson as a good TE. We lack DT depth and starpower at DE. We don’t have a decent SAM and who knows how many time Bobby have in this league, especially for that price. Our CB group is bad at the minimum, Reed is a good CB3, but not sure about him at CB2 and he’s not a CB1 in my book.
We have OK money for the future, but not crazy high amount, and we have limited draft stock.
Sure…we don’t need a Kelce, and a Henry, and Shell is serviceable. DL is OKish, mediocre or a bit worse than that. With an amazing FO and coordinators, a ton of luck in FA and the draft (snatching a good LT, C, CB and some decent DT depth) this team could be somewhat of a contender for SB appearance, but I highly doubt they could be win an SB. Too much holes in the roster and certain groups are too thin.
I am in it for the excitement, the potential emerging stars and the likeable characters. This team has NONE of the above. It might ruin the franchise, but if I’m only care about my entertainment, I wouldn’t mind changing the FO, and trade Wilson for a king’s ransom, trade Adams too, and Bobby if possible (doubt it), maybe even DK. Suck for 2-3 years badly, get a ton of resources and see what happens. Likely awful seasons for a longer period, but I’d take a 4-13 team with a Kam and Lynch in it than a 11-6 PO “extra” team with 1-2 win cameo and an exit.
Not a winning mindset, I know, but I want to like the team, and not sure switching PC and JS alone will make me like them again š
I’ll just say again. I think people are seriously underestimating what a good off-season can achieve
That’s possible, it was so long ago this team even had a decent offseason, I forgot what it’s like to have a good one š
Love you Rob and your work. Usually agree, but not here. And I like Russ, a lot. Definitely flaws, but I’ve been around for much worse (Kelly Stouffer, Dan McGwire, Rick Mirer, so on and so forth).
I’d trade Russ and wouldn’t think twice. It’s damn near impossible to win the Super Bowl paying a top QB at the top of the market. Only 2 of the last 20 Super Bowl QBs were in the top 5 QB cap hits in the season they made the Super Bowl. Too much of your cap on the QB hamstrings your ability to fill out the rest of your roster, both in the form of other impact players and depth.
Now, part of this is absolutely because Brady has never been a top of market QB. Russ is a guy that you’d think could be in the same situation, where he’s got a rich, superstar wife, could make up for some lost wages through endorsements, and seems to be most concerned about winning and his legacy. If he’d take $20-25M per year instead of $40-45M, then sure, sign me up. If he wants to be the highest paid QB (as is his right and something he’s probably earned), then trade him for picks and let’s build a team.
(None of this is to say that other decisions and the current use of cap space and other assets has made sense. Clearly using a big chunk of cap space/draft capital on a MLB and a SS that you can’t use is also bad. But that doesn’t mean using 20% of your cap on Russ is a good idea.)
I think this a somewhat overused argument that lacks context though.
The NFC Championship a year ago was played by Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady. The AFC Championship by Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes.
As we sit here today we can acknowledge two things. All are superb first and foremost. Now, all are very well paid. But that’s the secondary point to their talent. And all are reasonably supported right now despite their salaries.
What is key is to have an amazing QB and then make smart additions in FA and the draft to support them. If you can do that for a player on a rookie contract, then great. But you don’t dump an amazing QB to dabble in that scenario. Especially with the 2022 quarterback class.
If you trade Wilson now, you’re more likely to end up paying an average QB to be a stop-gap.
And the Murray’s etc of the league currently will get paid soon. And continue to thrive. And Josh Allen is leading the Bills brilliantly despite his mega deal.
Expecting to emulate, for example, the 2016 Broncos (just get an elite, amazing defense) or the Patriots (find the best QB in history and get him to take less) just seems majorly unrealistic. And that should be acknowledged.
It should also be noted that Russ has agreed to a stipulation in his contract that the Seahawks can convert salary to bonus anytime they like to free up room.
So it’s not like Russ has insisted in taking up a certain chunk of salary cap that cannot be reduced in order to make the team stronger.
I think Wilson would pretty much be open to anything to help his team win.
But it’s harder to take the brunt of that financially if you think the entire philosophy of the franchise is completely wrong
That’s my thought as well – I think RW would absolutely do whatever needed to be done with his salary, but the road block is not having conviction in PC.
The analogy would be taking salary in the form of equity in a company having the utmost confidence that the company will succeed. RW and many of us don’t have any such confidence.
Respectfully disagree about the “all are very well paid” comment. Brady had the #6 cap hit last year, Rodgers #10. But Allen was #30 and Mahomes was #32. Josh Allen and Pat Mahomes may have megadeals, but Allen’s cap hit is $10M this year and Mahomes’ is $7.5M. Time will tell in the next couple years if the Chiefs and Bills can maintain their level of success when their QBs take up $35-45M in cap space. It’s going to cost them depth and talent at other positions.
I think the jury is out on whether you need an amazing QB. Look at the QBs who’ve played for Super Bowls. It’s a mix of Brady and Manning and Brees with guys like Cam, Wentz, Goff, etc. New England definitely is unrealistic, but it’s skewed everyone’s idea of what’s possible. Dynasties just don’t happen. We have a bunch of great, historic QBs from the last 20 years (Peyton, Brees, Rodgers) who each have 1 or 2 Super Bowls, and then we turn around and expect different from ours for some reason. It’s insanely difficult.
Frankly, I’d take 3 first rounders, $20M+ in cap space, and an average QB to be a stop-gap. And I’d draft a QB every single year to see if I can catch lightning in a bottle. Not sure that this is the front office/coaching staff running with this plan, but that’s a separate discussion from what to do with Russ.
Mahomes was playing on the final year of a rookie deal and now is playing on a record contract. KC might be struggling currently but they have all their stars signed up. There’s nothing preventing them from further success but their own execution.
Allen likewise has just signed a mega deal. The Bills will have to deal with that. They can do so by drafting well, signing well and not wasting resources.
Brady was the 6th highest paid. Let’s be right. You can’t use the ‘top five’ argument and then act like the sixth guy on the list doesn’t also count. They built that roster around Brady on the fly and turned a 7-9 into Champions with smart moves.
Rodgers is on a big, big contract. Whether it’s 1st or 10th. They’ve gone from also rans to potential SB team based on coaching changes and smart additions.
Really? Brady says hi.
Even when teams without truly elite QB’s win their guys play above and beyond — Eli, Flacco, Foles. They elevate against the odds. And are usually aided by elite defensive play (which is also really hard to create).
But lets at least acknowledge that Brady won so many SB’s because he was on the team that won it. And Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Big Ben — they outnumber the ‘surprise’ winners significantly.
I think what you’d end up with is a bang average team constantly chasing your QB tail, like so many franchises.
And this is not a period in college football where trying to find a QB is easy. At all.
The Seahawks have had their greatest success in franchise history over about the last 20 years because primarily of two players, Matt Hasselbeck and Russell Wilson. I for one don’t want to go back to 90s Seahawks “Football” where we were without a legitimate franchise QB.
Likewise, I remember how much QB tape I watched in 2010 and 2011. Desperately trying to find options.
It’s not fun. It can undermine everything. You’re always wondering and searching. If you invest you have to give guys time and that can be counterproductive if you pick the wrong player. Imagine needing to give Trubisky three years to see what he can do.
It can take years, decades to find your next guy.
Giving up on Wilson without even trying him with an offensive-minded HC? Not for me.
I don’t know how you embed quotes. That would make this much easier.
Mahomes’ real money doesn’t kick in until next year. His cap hit is $7.5M this year and $36M in 22 and $46M in 23. Their window is going to get a lot tighter after this year. Same deal with Allen, but a year later – no real money until 23.
I do agree to an extent on Brady. He was #6 last year but they could frontload that deal because they had the cap space. He’s #15 this year.
You already said that New England was unrealistic to emulate. I think we’d all sign up for a scenario where we get the best head coach in football history paired with one of the top 5 QBs of all time (if not the best) on a below market deal for his entire prime. Like I said, if Russ will take $20M per, let’s go!
Seriously, look at the QB cap hits in 2021 over $20M, and I don’t think there’s a legit SB contender in the bunch: Russ, Cousins, Rodgers, Ryan, Jimmy G, Big Ben, Carr, Wentz. I guess maybe you can count the Rams because their total QB cap hit is about $45M with the dead money hit from Goff, if they end up being any good.
I really think you’re better off spending your money elsewhere. I think paying a franchise QB top of market money is a good way to stay relevant and usually make the playoffs, but we’ve already established that’s not good enough. Feels like that’s where the Hawks have been since the SB loss. Relevant enough to discuss if everything goes bang on right, but not a top 5 team that you really expect to win it all.
But what if you end up with a bad or average QB?
How are you planning to contend?
Is it as easy as just going and getting an elite defense?
Drafting a first round QB who is more Herbert than Trubisky?
I donāt see what the plan is here other than hit and hope.
We have a HOF QB in hand.
Building a generational defense is extraordinarily difficult and requires an insane amount of luck.
Our current defense sucks and we have low draft capital.
Why…why people would rather try for option 2 when we are nowhere near an elite/generational defense continues to amaze me. Despite having a generational defense, we still needed a very good/highly efficient QB to win the SB.
Did RW win the SB? No. Do we win it with Geno Smith? Uh, no.
The problem is: a generational QB will also not suffice. At some point, you need a very good defense to win in the playoffs.
Speaking about the latest example…
Nothing about what Buffalo’s doing is depending on luck. Their D is an assembly of all over the place picks since 2018. Nothing in those picks is special in itself, nothing of that is rocket science. Some of the players were even actively proposed on this blog.
#9 Ed Oliver
#16 Tremaine Edmunds
#27 Tre’Davious White
#30 Greg Rousseau
#54 AJ Epenesa
#96 Harrison Phillips
#154 Siran Neal
#163 Matt Milano
UDFA Levi Wallace
Their OL is an assembly of mid rounders. It’s telling, that they don’t draft WRs. Nothing seems to help an offense more than experience at WR and RB. Half of the Mahomes wonder was Sammy Watkins.
If we finally take playoff appearances and current record as a metric, these are the franchises hitting on their rookie QB in the last five seasons:
– Bengals
– Chargers
– Chiefs
– Cowboys
– Texans
– Ravens
– Bills
– Cardinals
– Rams (Goff took them to the SB)
– Eagles (Wentz took then to the SB)
– Browns
– Bears (debatable)
Busts, first year rookies excluded:
– Broncos
– Dolphins
– Cardinals (Rosen!)
– WFT
– NY Giants
The jury is out on Jacksonville, NY Jets, SF, Texans (again), Bears (again) and New England.
What is clearly not working is handing the keys to a lousy offense to a rookie. There were a bunch of armchair analysts writing Josh Allen down as a bum for years. It was when they finally gave him a dependable weapon, when he began to succeed.
It’s all hit and hope! Even keeping Russ and thinking you can right the ship is based on hope!
In the short term, my Seahawks wouldn’t contend. Not even close. I’d trade everyone that could bring any value (Wilson for sure, but also Carson, Lockett, DK, Poona, Bobby, Diggs, Adams), eat all the dead money I can in a great reset, and build a whole new team. Tear it down to the studs, bring in a new FO and HC, and get to work.
Sticking by a future HOF QB is decidedly less hit and hope than trade him and hope another comes across over the next decade
Just going in circles now, my man. The track record of your future HOF QBs isn’t very good (Peyton, Brees, Rodgers). I don’t think you want one. Well one on his rookie deal is fine, but then move on and let someone else pay the man. The next team that figures out how to pay a QB top of market money and stay in their championship window will be the first.
The track record of Peyton, Brees and Rodgers is a problem? Rodgers has been to numerous NFCCG’s. Should’ve been to at least one more SB. I think we’re going down a bad road if we’re going to say he has a bad track record over the years. They’ve been 13-3 the last two seasons and a game from the SB.
The Saints had to endure the most incredible misfortune in the playoffs to prevent Brees getting back. It’s been incredible really. From the miracle play, to the botched PI call and other stuff.
Peyton? Won a SB in his last game, went to a SB two years prior to that.
Seems perfectly fine to me.
I just think it’s something that sounds plausible in a comment (draft a QB, then let them go, just get another cheap one) but the reality is you’ll just end up with the kind of crap football team that relies on a Fitzpatrick or Dalton to get you through a season. Or a Trubisky.
And as I said from the outset, this comment about ‘you can’t ever get to the SB with a top paid QB’ has zero context. The final four a year ago were elite QB’s. All four of those teams wouldn’t have been there without their QB’s. That’s just a fact.
And clearly Buffalo and KC don’t agree with your plan.
Elite QB’s are how you win the majority of the time. There are exceptions, of course. But hoping to not only fall on a Flacco or Eli type situation and then build an elite, top-ranked defense to prop them up in the regular season, then hope your QB gets red hot in the playoffs as they did — that’s like trying to win the lottery. As is, as it happens, trying to find a great QB.
I wish we could have this discussion over a pint and just chat. I don’t think we’re going anywhere, so this will be my last comment here. I did see a new post up so looking forward to reading through that.
Boy, it sure seems like if our Hawks are in dire straights, then it’s hard to argue that the track record of guys like Rodgers and Brees was good. They’ve each been to a single SB. I’ve seen numerous references to the Packers being paper tigers over the years – good regular season record but not really a contender. Seems disingenuous to say they’ve been doing great when each franchise made one SB in like 15 years with a HOF QB at the helm, when the argument has been the Seahawks have lost their way. My view has typically been that the playoffs are largely a crapshoot – you want to get there and give yourself as good of a chance as possible to make/win a SB, but it’s not necessarily a failure of a season if it doesn’t end in a conference championship game or a SB.
And you’re putting words in my mouth because you disagree. I didn’t say “you canāt ever get to the SB with a top paid QB” and not provide any context, I said it was extremely difficult and then backed it up with actual numbers. Like, in the last 10 years, there have been 50 QB seasons in which said player carried a top 5 cap hit in that respective season – exactly 2 of them have made the SB. It’s extremely difficult.
Elite QB play is a separate issue. I won’t disagree that a great QB doesn’t help or that the four CC teams last year had it. But you can’t convince me that Mahomes was a “highly paid” QB last year when his real money doesn’t kick in until next season. The Raiders had TWO QBs with a higher cap hit than KC or BUF carried on the books last season. I just see very little evidence that a team can pay a top QB 15-20% of their cap and still put a strong team around them that can get to the SB. Time will tell about KC and BUF – but you can’t argue with a straight face that KC can pay Mahomes $30-40M more and it won’t cost them a top pass rusher or secondary player or a weapon. It’s simple math.
I remember someone used the airplane analogy about cap space. Might’ve been Davis Hsu. Anyway, it was like you can afford to have 8-10 guys in first class (on 2nd/3rd contracts) and the rest are in coach. I’m afraid that with a highly paid QB, you’re looking at more like 5 or 6 in first class. I simply think you’re better off building a more rounded team and finding a QB that won’t actively hurt your chances to win. I also don’t think it’s reasonable to keep a championship window open for more than 2-3 years at a time. I’m ok with not holding onto to guys and refreshing the team every so often. That means moving on from players that are beloved by the fans. But winning cures all, so they say.
And again, this is a separate discussion than has Seattle done as well as they could with the resources at their disposal. They clearly have not.
Cheers.
There’s no way anyone is going to convince me otherwise of the need to have a true franchise QB to remain a consistent winning team, a perennial or near perennial playoff team, and an off and on SB contender. The one I’ve learned is that if you’re going to defy the gravitational pull towards parity in the NFL, it starts with having the Owner/GM/HC/QB totem pole in place, and a quality franchise QB probably being the most important of the four. It’s by a good measure the most important single position in major team sports.
IMO, I think the NFL should make some sort of mathematical/CAP allowance that doesn’t financially and otherwise punish a team for having a veteran franchise QB quite as much as it does. There’s got to be some sort of such a reasonable allowance between the current runaway salaries of NFL QB’s and a one player salary exemption that makes sense for this unusual phenomenon.
I disagree with the latter paragraph. The relative parity of the NFL is a beautiful thing. That teams with good vet QBs have less to spend on the rest of the team is an essential part of that.
That paragraph was my feeling that a middle ground could be reached. It can hurt lower teams striving to become better as well, forced to pay unproven and average vet QBs a ton of money because there isn’t much of an alternative at the time. It can work both ways.
I don’t think such a middle ground would destroy the parity structure. Just MO.
Rob,
Great piece as always! Things are definitely coming to a head. From what I saw at the game on Thursday, Wilson looked a step slower. He used to dodge defenders, roll out and launch bombs. Now, too often, he gets sacked and loses big yardage. He also doesnāt run enough to threaten like he used to do (remember the read option fake with Wilson rolling out and running the opposite direction, thatās been completely absent for a long time and used to be the 4th quarter surprise after a game full of handoffs). I believe Wilson is too short to see the short routes. These all became glaringly obvious when Geno came into the game. His additional speed and rushing ability created a new element for the offense that gave the Rans fits. He also stepped up into the pocket to buy an extra second and hit receivers over the middle (from the pocket!). Finally, when no one was open, he threw the ball away. ON THAT NIGHT (I donāt believe Genoās the answer), he was the type of QB that makes this offense click. I could almost guarantee that Carroll saw this and it was absolutely not lost on him. The fans also saw it and instantly cheered for Geno (even wondering if Wilson had been benched, not knowing that he was hurt, but not caring either). It was fun! For the first time, it was fun! Weāll now get an opportunity to see what this offense can look like with a QB like Geno. Iām betting it will be more fun, and more exciting, while showing some warts along the way (ups and downs by Geno). Honestly, Iām not sure the fans will care. This will validate for Pete that he needs a change at QB for this offense and the break from Wilson will be just what he needs to make this transition.
Is it the wrong call? That depends. It will be the right call for Peteās offense. It will probably be the wrong call for Seattle. If Wilson stays, weāll need a new coach and GM and new approach to O Line and game plan. If its Peteās call, weāll need a mobile QB and a better defense. So, where do you spend and shape? It depends on whoās philosophy.
Rob,
On another note, I would love to see an article on press man vs. zone in the Hawksā scheme. I think this has been a big change from the LOB and where weāve lost our way (and identity) on defense. The Hawks used to press at the line with tall rangy corners that gave the front four a split second longer. We built up front and got home with four! We also had a fast rangy safety (Earl Thomas) to ballhawk and pick off passes, while covering the top. We didnāt get beat deep because of the extra time from the jams, the pressure from the investments in the four up front and the speed at safety. When we did play zone (often when we were ahead at the end of games, we gave up yards quickly and looked like we were playing out of position (or scheme fit with our players).
Thatās how we look now!!! Now we play our CBs 7 yards off the line and wonder why we canāt get home when the QBs are throwing quick outs to wide open WRs with space. We have no pressure up the middle in the front four (Pona and Mone built to clog the middle and stop the run) and we rush our SS (Adams) and leave even more room open over the middle for the short easy passes, quick WR screens and runs that direct away from whatever side Adams is coming from. Itās sooo easy to game plan against! ā¦and always has been when weāre in zone). Iām sick of watching Wagner trying to cover WRs and RBs. Heās not fast enough and itās not fair to him. When dialing up the Xs and Os, the other coaches are winning when they can all too often scheme him into coverage on a non TE. Same goes now for Adams. Scheme him into coverage where he is isolated on a WR. AND, itās so obvious that opposing teams are just telling their RBs to look for Adams and stop his blitz (they have adjusted from last year and heās no longer a āhistorically greatā pash rusher – big surprise!). Itās so obvious! Thereās no guessing where the rush is coming from. ā¦and the QB can see this too! Whereās Adams? Okay, watch for the rush on the side. Put the RB over there, prepare for pass to that hole or screen out wide. Run to the direction away from blitzing Adams, etc.
Itās WAY past time to fire Ken Norton! Then, we should get two press corners and a pass rusher up the middle with a fast (TRUE āfreeā safety) to cover deep. Thereās not another Earl, but thereās Budda Baker types most years. Weāll also have to lose Adams to make it work.
Weāve got to get back to the core defensive philosophy. Weāve lost our way, tried to plug holes and now have no identity and it shows!
Vis-a-vis Wilson criticism:
Why has our offense been so bad at possessing the ball?
We’re ranked 32nd (DEAD LAST) in avg drive time (2:13) and plays (4.84).
Some people would say this is due to Wilson’s style. True?
The run game is another likely culprit, but we’re ranked 10th in YPC (4.5).
Or maybe it’s a problem with Waldron and his uptempo style?
Most year under Wilson we’ve been above average in these stats.
Short drives aren’t always bad things.
Pull some samples from the first few games of their scoring drives. I’d wager the Seahawks have 6-8 drives they scored on that were under say 4 minutes.
You combine that with that awful first half of the SF game and the fact that the defense hasn’t been able to get off the field, and the drive time number is bound to be low.
I wouldn’t put too much stock in that number as a reflection of the way RW plays.
Plus the running game is non existent
That kinda helps with longer drivesā¦
Yeah, I think you’re right overall. But it does underscore how boom-or-bust the O has been since early 2020. Will be interesting to see if that trend changes with Geno (more TE usage?).
Until the defense decides to actually show up, I’m guessing it will not.
While I don’t want the defense to be on the field 40-45 minutes a game; I do not understand the obsession with ToP.
The only time that Time of Possession should have any meaning or bearing on your offensive philosophy is when the math tells you that the other team cannot make a comeback because you can simply run out the clock.
Until the math works out – the singular goal of the offense should be to score points and limit turnovers. That’s it. I see this team shut things down up two scores with half a game left, and I don’t think that’s a result of porous play, but rather a philosophy that says, “let’s take our foot off the gas. ”
You know what helps a defense more than ToP? Playing with a lead…and playing with a lead knowing the offense is still focused on scoring. This is the single biggest flaw I’ve seen with PC and it all comes down to him having almost no belief in the idea of “margin of error.”
*And I’m not saying you’re obsessed with ToP.
Love this quote from Randy Mueller in the Athletic arctice.
Reminds me of what Rob has been saying for quite some time.
āPete does have to roll up his sleeves,ā former NFL exec of the year Randy Mueller said during our latest Football GM Podcast. āI just donāt see a roster that has been built on the defensive side that is going to give them the burst of whatever they need to fix it. They have all their money in Bobby Wagner and Jamal Adams. That is $35 million (actually $25 million this year) in cap room tied up really in two box players. When the game breaks out of the phone booth and gets into recess mode, I donāt know what they can do about it, because when teams spread the field, they canāt cover them.ā
PC should have had a plan in place before trading for Adams, much like Rob has said; this just makes this even more frustrating.
We need someone who knows how to use Adams and whole new team philosophy.
Loved the 2 new HC suggestions on the site and would be happy with either.
I’m desperately hoping Rob’s right and PC steps down. If he’s still here i just have 0 hope for a turnaround.
That quote is a perfect statement of the defensive woes.
It’s such a drag to be a fan of this team that’s trending downward, a little short on draft capital, an unhappy and injured franchise QB who I personally believe is going to force his way out, a pretty much faceless ownership, and an aging autocratic HC playing the role of King Lear.
I feel like I’m being forced to watch the downfall happen in slow motion.
You know, in some ways the current state of the franchise has liberated me to really enjoy watching other games tho. The Chargers game yesterday was extremely entertaining. Sadly it has come from a place of losing hope for the Seahawks, but it has been an unexpected positive.
Me too. I’ve been watching other games/teams more closely and enjoyably than I have in the past without that deeper emotional investment, other than me almost always finding a team that I want to win the game. š
Sean McDermott and Brandon Beane have built a very impressive roster in Buffalo, especially on defense. Their DL rotation and depth is insane, like our own 2013-2014 Seahawks. I wasn’t very high on Greg Rousseau in the draft and I thought Buffalo picked him too high. I rescind my earlier opinion. He’s a player. A very impressive player. Raw to be sure, but he’s going to be a major factor on defense for them for the remainder of his rookie contract, and perhaps beyond.
As an Angelino, I spent the 2000’s watching Pete Carroll at USC. He’s not a technical innovator. Perhaps many thought he was because of his “fresh” coaching style. But that’s all personality. As a coach, he’s pretty conservative. He’s not an adaptor himself; he’s someone who adapts the circumstances around him to match HIS coaching philosophy and style. Remember the glory days of 2013-2015 when Seattle’s game plan was basically to say “here’s what we do just try and stop us”. That works when you have the personnel to make it work. But when you don’t, and Seattle currently do not, you need to adapt. That’s NOT Pete Carroll. Never was, never will be. That’s why I firmly believe Seattle will remain mired in mediocrity until he leaves.
As for Schneider, take away the 2012 draft and offseason, and grade how he built the team’s roster. It’s not a good grade. I don’t fault a FO, especially a FO with no top-20 1st round picks year after year, for taking big swings (and misses) on players with strong upside; think Ifedi and McDowell. But the rest of it is just so…bloody awful, and, dare I say, incompetent.
Back to Carroll and his inability (unwillingness?) to adapt…
There’s a lot of discussion on the blog about how Geno may come in and be THE guy because, hey, he works within the offense, unlike that showboating Russell who’s always going off script on his own.
Russell Wilson is the best QB this team have ever had. He’s a top-5 QB in the League. Period. A good coach, a SMART coach, adapts the offense to match the strengths of his top-5 QB. He does not clip his QB’s wings and force the QB to shrink himself down to fit in the coach’s narrow, unchanging coaching philosophy.
That’s my 2 cents.
I’ve been thinking the same thing about Carroll.
it’s very hard for a coach in any sport to have sustained success over a long period of time – the game moves on, players move on or lose effectiveness and other teams figure out how to beat you.
the ones who can stay successful are the ones who are willing to adapt and I agree, Caroll won’t do that. the most telling quote of the season so far was the one about Waldron being prepared to do things like we’ve done them before or whatever the exact quote was. Pete is still.convinced his way works, and he knows best.
I used to enjoy listening to his interviews, now they just annoy me because you know he’s bullshitting a lot of the time.
He has to go.
“A good coach, a SMART coach, adapts the offense to match the strengths of his top-5 QB. He does not clip his QBās wings and force the QB to shrink himself down to fit in the coachās narrow, unchanging coaching philosophy.”
1000% agree. I’ve been saying for the least several years I feel like if Russ went to NO and played under Sean Payton you’d see what he’s truly capable of. A couple of years ago I never thought that would happen. Now I actually think that’s where he’ll end up if Pete doesn’t retire (and sadly, maybe even if he does).
And here are the hard 2021 facts…
The metrics, were RW currently excels as a Top 5 QB are completion percentage (#3) and yard average (#1). He is #24 in yd/g, and tied at #9 in TDs. He has been sacked 13 times, which is a tie at #8. He is #28 in passing attempts. These stats tell us: they are fixated on explosive deep plays, and when lanes don’t open, they begin to hesitate without a plan B. This is exactly what happens. Play them two deep, and they’re done. The offense as a whole delivers #19 in the league stats.
Someone clipping RWs wings… if we have to believe preseason sources, RW was deep into the Waldron signing. He cherished the Gabe Jackson deal. He pushed for Duane Brown to be resigned. This doesn’t look like a franchise clipping wings.
I tend to think, they collectively assumed, they were in pretty good shape.
Finally, clipping-conspiracies aside: we are cheap and desperate on the OL, for ages. Rob proposed taking the best interior lineman available in FA last preseason. He wanted Cesar Ruiz as a high pick the season before. He was damn right. This never ending influx parade of backup material to protect RW and facilitate the running game needs to stop.
You’re assuming a lot here, some of which I know not to be true.
I would suggest that if RW is traded, the picks would indeed really assist the reset/rebuild, however, I see a possibility that the RW trade could (and probably should) include as compensation an existing QB veteran that has potential and upside. Looking through current veteran QBās that other teams MIGHT want to upgrade to with RW as their new QB. The trade would be for both high picks and a veteran QB. Possibilities of QBās in TRADE (along with some multiple draft picks, of course) IMO – – – ARE:
Best alternatives?
(1) Jalen Hurts, QB, Philly 2020: 5-games, 118/182/64.8%/1365-yds/7-TD/3-INT, 10-sacks, 93.3-QBR. + Philly has a boatload of picks to invest. Hurts, has a little bit of RW in his game and Ciara might like Philly.
(2) Kirk Cousins, QB, Minn. 2020: 5-games, 133I /191/69.6%/1296-yds/10-TD/2-INT, 9-sacks, 103.7-QBR. Not an RW, but has some decent skills even if a little inconsistent.
(3) Tyrod Taylor, QB, Hou., 2020: 2-games, 31/44/70.5%/416-yds/3-TD/0-INT
1-sack, 122.9-QBR. A big old flyer on a potential replacement, maybe, at least, better than a SMITH?
(4) = ????
Anyone else see this as a possibility, perhaps with different QBās that could be traded for by teams wanting to UPGRADE to that final piece of a franchise QB in his prime? The biggest problem of losing RW is who will take his place??? I could see adding veteran players that fit needs -along with- a lesser number of 1-st round picks and a boatload of day-2/3 picks, that would help the reset/rebuild more than missing a single 1-st rounder that the Seahawks can’t seem to hit on anyway. – IMO.
You can’t be serious with Kirk Cousins or Tyrod Taylor, and Jalen Hurts is far from Russ. I can only hope Russ isn’t set on leaving, he will be extremely hard to replace.
IF – RW is traded, who plays QB?
—-Smith? (there are many reasons he’s not a starter and is a career backup.)
—-An upgrade of Smith? (This WILL be needed if the Seahawks want to return to consistently contending)
—-Use their next 2-nd round pick on a college QB and hope like hell you hit? = Extremely unrealistic.
What’s the plan if RW is indeed traded? Getting a veteran (stop-gap?) QB may be necessary, but WHICH ONE? **That was my purpose with the above post, don’t limit RW trade compensation to only high draft picks & get at least a competent QB in the trade as well, but which QB?
For thought experiment’s sake…if RW forces his way out this off-season, it’s pretty grim at first glance about getting back a somewhat competent or place-holding QB in return with whatever draft picks you also accrue.
When you look at the potential available QB’s either through a single trade or three way trade, it’s kind of gag-able in relation to RW…Eason, Wentz, Darnold, Trubisky, Garrapolo, Minshew, Winston, Goff, Hurts, Jones, Tua, Carr…who would you want to hold the fort till we can one day luck out in the draft? Last year some people thought we might be okay and could live with a Carr or a Donald. I don’t know…
No easy choices facing the Hawks if RW forces his way out.
Out of that group, Minshew is the only one Iād see as a positive move. Trubiski might be pretty okay now that heās away from Nagy but a downgrade overall. I think RW is about bang average QB, not good, not bad, just okay. Having played QB and being exactly the same height/ weight as RW I should be his biggest fan ever, but when I watch him play Iām literally shaking mad most of the game watching the plays he misses making and occasionally throwing the most beautiful deep passes Iāve ever seen anyone throw. Itās always just enough to make you question your read of if heās a viable or not. Heād have been a god in the 70s but the game has caught up, the coaching has caught up, and the younger QB in the league have caught up. I definitely feel that heās getting worse not better, and the opportunity to trade him for a haul of picks is getting less possible every year with age and declining play. My thought is treat the players as assets, like the stock market. We bought low, got the best of his career and now that heās on the decline trading high would be ideal. Sure he might make the playoffs with another team, but does anyone really think he elite enough anymore to lead a team through the playoffs to the big game?
Valid points about choosing QB over coach. The biggest flaw in this argument is
a) If you are rebuilding, a new HC will want to install his system, roster and will want players that fit his style. There’s no guarantee that he will say, “Russ you are my QB”. Many miss the point that a very offensive minded QB will not like the way Russ plays (which is mostly outside the structure of play design or the scheme). They may not be willing into come into a situation where you pay $50 mil per year extension to the QB and trying to find a roster to fit into the “Russell Wilson” offensive scheme. The same HC may not want a roster handicapped by cap space with their QB eating more than 20% of it, especially when he’s out to prove himself as a great HC.
b) Say, you find a HC like that, there’s the underlying theme or theory that Wilson has hit his ceiling. Franchises look at what the person is going to do and not what they have done. While Wilson wants his legacy to be that of Manning or Brady, his game hasn’t evolved to that level in many ways and most importantly in ways that require him to be an elite pocket passer. His comp seems to be more aligned towards Big Ben or Philip Rivers who are great but not great enough to win a SB on their own. Even from his perspective, Russ probably knows his limitations and wants to make the most of out the next 2-3 years where the window for him getting to SB is closer. Trust me, he knows he’s not gonna play till 43 or 44.
Taking these 2 into considerations and Rob’s general disdain for all things Pete, I want to say that we can all hope Russ stays after Pete leaves, but it would require not a full rebuild but a HC and GM who can let Russ have power and voice in the org as well as cater to what Russ wants. Does anyone here think any org will give him that let alone Seahawks?
I have no disdain for Pete.
I’ve gone into quite a lot of detail over the years about why I think things have gone south and why I’d like a change.
But I also regularly celebrate him for what he’s achieved in Seattle and push back against the all too regular attempts to take away credit for the initial build in 2010. In my live stream today, I went into this in detail again.
But this is part of the problem. People see fair criticism and a desire to see change and conflate it with disdain. I just want the Seahawks to win another Super Bowl and don’t think they will with the current setup.
I am with you on Pete Rob. I usually find your tone about Pete a bit harsh compared to talking about Wilson and his game. Thereās a chance that Wilson is partly responsible for holding back this offense and Pete may be the only coach to let him play his style of football!
Regarding rebuild, You are thinking that a HC (especially offensive minded) will come and work with Russell and embrace his style of playing. You have no idea how (sorry for the language) anal Offensive minded HCs are. They design plays and are very very particular about how the scheme is run. Moreover HCs hate to inherit roster unless that HC isnāt a highly sought candidate.
Another angle to this is Russ would want a big contract extension (this maybe his last big one) and I donāt think he will give a team friendly deal. Heās more like Brees than Brady wrt $$$. That will tie a new HC to find and build a roster through draft and we all know what a crapshoot that is. Moreover will Wilson be patient enough to wait for the rebuild? While our wish might be to want Wilson to stay after Pete leaves, itās not practical because of reasons outlined. Only thing I can see here is Seahawks hire a new HC, see how Russ adapts to the offensive minded scheme and coach and then make a call about the extension.
While Russ is great, I see a QB whoās pocket skills havenāt improved over the past 3 years and I see real deficiencies in his game that may require him to have more help than what other elites need. I donāt see him in the same tier as Brady, Rodgers and Manning. I hope they find out soon with another HC if he can infect elevate his game. Letās see
Also, regarding your comment about winning SB, I honestly feel Russ is as responsible is not taking us deep into the playoffs as Pete. The offense becomes predictable not because of scheme but because of the limitations within the scheme which you feel is set by Pete. While this was true until 3 years ago, the past 2 years is indicative that itās not just Pete. I donāt think this team is anywhere closing to winning a SB with Wilson and an offensive minded coach. It may not be a take you agree with and only time will tell. Russ needs a top 5 D IMO to win a SB because the offense no matter the scheme will become predictable because of the way he plays( 10 yrs of habit is hard to change) and you will need elite D to go deep into the playoffs
I agree, Wilson is a HOF talent. My position, for awhile now, has been that this team wonāt be able to compete in the big game as is now. There are major holes in this team, soon to be more holes (Duane Brown), and very limited resources to address them. This team has some nice pieces, but like it or not, itās a rebuild team.
Itās going to take at least a few years to do that (we donāt even have a 1st for this years draft). The argument is, youāve got this incredible talent on roster, but you canāt do much with him because of the many holes and lack resources. Wilson is only getting older, itās a waste of his time and talent. Even HE RECOGNIZES THAT!
So if the goal is to turn fortunes around in short order, get back to the big game, youāre delusional thinking itās going to happen with the current setup – youāre only prolonging the timeline. PCJS made the gambles, they didnāt pay off, the hopes of getting back to a SB folded. No sense in being in denial.
Move on, get a fresh new staff, get resources for them to rebuild, and hope for the best. Yes, it will be hard to replace Wilson, but whatās the alternative? Kick the can and pretend weāre competitive enough to win it all now? If they had started last year, weād be closer to being competitive than we are today. Same would be true 3 years ago, and we wouldāve gotten more in return for Wilson. That value is only diminishing each year we wait.