Note — I don’t usually post multiple articles in a day. I don’t want to flood you with material and most of the Percy Harvin-trade discussion is going on in the other article. If you want to check it out, it’s a piece on the pro’s and con’s of the trade. And yes, we’ll still be doing a live chat on day one of the draft this year!
So… now that there’s no first round pick any more, what are we going to talk about for the next few weeks?
First of all, let’s put the Harvin trade into context here. A few people have brought up — not unfairly — the point that Seattle’s greatest need (pass rush) is now unlikely to be resolved early in the draft. Here’s the thing though. Let’s assume Sheldon Richardson, Star Lotulelei and Sharrif Floyd leave the board early next month. Let’s assume Dion Jordan, Jarvis Jones, Ziggy Ansah, Datone Jones and others also disappear quickly. What are you left with?
Kawann Short? Sylvester Williams? Are they really going to solve this big need?
What about the other receivers? I’m a big fan of DeAndre Hopkins, but is he going to offer explosive playmaking skills? Can you rely on Keenan Allen or Justin Hunter to stay healthy and have an impact at the next level?
Yes the Seahawks need height at receiver and will now field a corps involving 5-10 Golden Tate, 5-10 Doug Baldwin and 5-11 Percy Harvin. But what was the alternative? Allen is 6-2. Hopkins is 6-1. Hunter is 6-4. Are any of those guys likely to have the kind of impact Harvin could have? Very, very unlikely.
I’ve agonised over the last 7-8 mock drafts I’ve done trying to find that ‘unique’ talent the Seahawks would probably look for and most of the time came out empty handed. It’s difficult to find defining difference makers in the late first round. It just is.
Simply put, Harvin was better than any of the options available. I’m sure that’s how Pete Carroll and John Schneider saw this. They looked at the class, looked at who might be available at #25. Then they decided Harvin was that much better than anyone else they could bring in.
Ask yourself who you’d rather have the day after the first round of the draft concludes — Percy Harvin, Kawann Short, Sly Williams or DeAndre Hopkins. I suspect most people will say Harvin. He’s the only player likely to scare the living the daylights out of the rest of the NFC West.
If anything, the trade makes the draft even more intriguing now. It’s a deep class and the Seahawks will still be able to get a good player at #56 (if they keep the pick). What’s more, we’ve kind of been given a direction now. They almost certainly won’t be drafting a receiver in round two. Given the need to address the defensive line and WILL position, it’s pretty safe to assume that’s what they’ll do in round two. Although you never know with this front office.
Of course, free agency could change things even further. For now, let’s look at some of the options at #56.
At defensive tackle, don’t rule out the possibility of Kawann Short or Sylvester Williams making it into the late second. Both players are slightly older (24 and 25 respectively during their rookie seasons) and lack the kind of explosive, difference making skills to guarantee an earlier selection. Right now I have both going in the top half of the second round. The depth at defensive tackle and possibility of ‘the big three’ going in the top-15 could force others down the board as demand lightens. Don’t be surprised if Jesse Williams, John Jenkins and Johnathan Hankins also suffer as a consequence. Hey, there’s every chance all five of these players go in the top-40. Just don’t be shocked if they last a little longer than expected.
Beyond that, Brandon Williams has shown enough athletic potential at 341lbs to combat his small-school upbringing. He’s intriguing. A little inexperienced in some cases and he might need to learn a few extra counters. Yet he moves unnaturally well for a guy at that size. USF’s Cory Grissom similarly impressed during the Senior Bowl work outs and the combine. Montori Hughes has a laundry list of character issues but there’s just something about him that looks right. Jordan Hill remains a favourite of ours on tape although he did look limited athletically in Indianapolis.
As much as improving the pass rush is important, I suspect the Seahawks want to keep size up front. Harvin makes the offense more explosive. They’re going to be leading in a lot of games anyway, which in turn helps the pass rush. Playing stout against the run early on could be more important than ever. It’s easier to ‘tee off’ on the pass rush with a healthy lead.
I suspect they’ll continue to lean on the ‘Jason Jones role’ as a situational pass rusher. Datone Jones appeared the most likely fit here but he’s unlikely to make it to round two. We’ve discussed Margus Hunt many times on the blog and he could be in play at #56. He’s not a polished, orthodox pass rusher. He’s still an athlete playing football. Yet physically he has a ton of upside and he kind of feels like the type of player this team would love to draft. It’s a little boom or bust, but you can see him working inside on third down and playing some edge too. His 4.6 speed and 6-8, 277lbs frame remains intriguing. He could be a first rounder based on upside or a sixth rounder based on the fact he’s a discus thrower chasing a football. His stock is impossible to predict.
In terms of defensive ends or LEO’s — Corey Lemonier’s combine performance makes it unlikely he will be available. He could be a mid-first rounder. Tank Carradine is having his tire’s pumped a little too much recently (in my view) but his ACL injury will push him back. Possibly to #56. It just depends on whether the Seahawks want another pass rusher coming off a serious injury.
Alex Okafor could be there in the late second — not an obvious LEO due to a lack of initial burst and speed, but he has excellent technical skills and hand use. John Simon is a favourite on this blog and could be an asset even in round two.
The best value might come at linebacker. If Khaseem Greene or Arthur Brown last into round two, don’t be surprised if Seattle makes a move in that direction.
Other players who could be on the radar later: Armonty Bryant (Kip’s favourite, LEO), Quinton Dial (DT or five technique depth), Abry Jones (DT), Michael Buchanan (LEO), Lavar Edwards (Jason Jones), Travis Long (LEO), Devin Taylor (LEO or Jason Jones), Cornelius Washington (LEO), Everett Dawkins (DT), Josh Boyd (DT), Jamie Collins (LEO or WILL), Brandon Jenkins (LEO).
There’s always the chance for further trades too, be it up or down the board. We might not have much to get excited about on day one of the draft this year, but there’s plenty to discuss over the next few weeks. Does anyone really expect it’ll be a boring draft with Pete Carroll and John Schneider in control? I didn’t think so.
Percy Harvin links
Danny O’Neil reports that the 2014 pick heading to Minnesota is likely to be a 3rd rounder. For a team that found a franchise quarterback in that range, they sure like to trade away third round picks.
Jason Cole writes that Harvin’s lack of trust in Christian Ponder help drive his desire for a trade. “Percy Harvin wanted two things this offseason: Money and a better quarterback.”
Mike Sando says the NFC West would rather prepare for the #25 pick in the 2013 draft than face Percy Harvin: “Harvin… is a threat to score as a receiver, runner and kickoff returner. Harvin has 20 touchdowns as a receiver, four as a runner and five as a kick returner.”
ESPN has quotes from Golden Tate on the news of the trade. Tate: “The Seahawks are trying to do whatever they think is necessary to put together a Super Bowl quality team. If this is one of the steps they think works to accomplish that, then that’s their choice. I don’t think it will impact any of our work habits. We are still going to grind and let the cards play out the way that they will.”
Marc Sessler notes the size of the story: “It’s a stunning move that will strengthen an already powerful Seahawks roster with a premier wide receiver and return threat, while simultaneously ending Harvin’s often rocky four-year tenure in Minnesota. It’s a bitter pill to swallow for Vikings fans. Harvin was the Vikings’ most exciting player, with the ability to scorch defenses as a pass-catcher and pick up devastating chunks of yardage in open space.”
Gregg Rosenthal believes it’s a great move by the Seahawks: “Coach Pete Carroll and general manager John Schneider have been nothing if not bold since arriving Seattle three years ago to re-make the Seahawks. They think different. They build different. They aren’t afraid to take chances.”
Brock and Salk react to the news today with Tim Hasselbeck and Adam Schefter.
Adrian Peterson isn’t happy:
The best all around player I ever seen or you’ll ever see! Goes to Seattle! I feel like I just got kicked in the stomach. Several times!!!
— Adrian Peterson (@AdrianPeterson) March 11, 2013
In other news, the 49ers traded a 6th round pick for Anquan Boldin’s four regular season touchdowns.
Rob,
First off, love the trade. I couldn’t agree with you more regarding the idea of having Harvin with the #25 pick or whomever else might be available at that time. The pick would be Harvin, every single day.
My concern is more around the cap hit that the Hawks will take. I’d love to see you or Kip write an article on what happens next (Washington cut? Flynn traded/cut? Rice deal restructured? Obamanu cut?).
I love this deal and would have done it in a heartbeat. I don’t care about the draft capital that was given up. I just want to make sure that the Hawks still have the cap space to sign guys like ET and Chancellor when their rookie deals are up in a couple years.
Yeah I think Washington’s days are numbered unfortunately. Flynn should be on the way out now one way or another. Rice might have to work his deal. We’ll see. Miller too. They could also front load Percy’s deal while Wilson’s $$$’s are low.
I think I’d be worried having a ~$10 million dollar PR/KR man. Yes, injuries can happen any time, but you’d be exposing a very expensive player to additional risk. Leon has been durable and effective here and I’d prefer to see him restructured and keep the return responsibilities. I’d say lean on Tate for returns but all I can think of is him running backwards and in a circle last year and then tweaking his knee.
La Canfora is reporting that they’re shopping Washington.
A couple things about cap numbers and having Paul Allen as owner. One, the salary cap figure is expected to jump in a couple years. Two, what Seattle can do with a non-cash-strapped owner is tear up the last year of their first contract. Let’s say a very good DB is making .5M per year in the final year of his deal and wants to make 7M per year in a new four year deal. Adding that up, it is 28.5M for 5 years including the final year of the current deal. You take that 28.5 and divide by 5 to get $5.7M per year for those same 5 years and the last few years are non-guaranteed, giving the team some recovery capacity if the player can’t perform at the same level for whatever reason. So the player gets the money he wants (28.5M) and the team gets a more salary cap friendly number at 5.7M per instead of 7M per. If a team is able to do this with all of its good players, it gives them better cap management in the long run and less of their great players hitting the open market.
Well, my assumption is that returning kicks/punts is an especially risky activity, more so than your ordinary offensive play. The change to the kick off line last year supports this. My point is that putting a top-paid player to that kind of exposure is not a good risk/reward proposition.
Harvin will force defenses into agony every time he’s on the field. He’ll certainly make some great returns. But if he’s injured on one, then you’ve sacrificed not just a returner but a player than contorts your opponent as a whole. And that cost would be greater than the benefit of a few great returns in a season. In other words, his greatest value is being lined up as a WR or RB *as much as possible*. Better to have Leon carrying the burden; similar to how we’d prefer to have Lynch running up the middle than Wilson — even though it worked a couple of times.
One thing you should know about Percy is that he expects to be in for kickoffs and will be upset if the team goes with other options. He knows the game, loves to play the game, and doesn’t like to miss opportunities to make a difference. They are acquiring him to return kickoffs as well as be an integral part of the offense.
Agreed. What do you think the Hawks get (if anything) from Washington and Flynn? Do each equate to at least a draft pick a piece?
I don’t see anyone trading for Leon, but it would be a 7th rounder at best if someone really wants him that badly.
The fact that we haven’t traded Flynn yet makes me think we are gonna hold onto him. Unfortunately I just don’t think there is much of a market for him. Personally I would take a 7th rounder for Flynn just to get as much of his money off the books as possible, but apparently the FO doesn’t agree.
I think they’d snatch at a 7th rounder. The problem is, nobody really believes Flynn is that good. And the money he’s owed is a major turn off. We’ll see if anyone bites but it’s hard to picture any team giving him a shot now.
“I think they’d snatch at a 7th rounder.”
There is just one thing about this idea that doesn’t sit right with me. The Alex Smith trade. If you believe that Seattle would have taken a 7th rounder for Flynn, then you pretty much have to believe that Kansas City thinks Alex Smith is that much better than Flynn.
Flynn makes even less money than Smith, and I just cannot seem to convice myself that KC had zero interest in a younger, cheaper (money) Matt Flynn that could have been acquired for a 7th rounder, only to turn around and give up the 34th overall selection+ to get the older and more expensive Alex Smith.
Maybe that is the case. Maybe the Chiefs just don’t like Flynn at all, but I find it easier to believe that Seattle was asking for something in the middle rounds and they considered it too steep for an unproven guy who just lost a job to a rookie.
All I know is that if I were a KC fan, and I found out that my team gave up what is essentially a late 1st rounder for Smith instead of a 7th rounder for Flynn I would be pretty dissapointed.
I think everyone was pretty much stunned when they found out KC had traded their #2 pick for Smith. I’d say the surprise was perhaps even greater than the shock at today’s trade. Nobody expected that.
Clearly, Andy Reid believes in Alex Smith. That’s basically the crux of the deal. Reid loves him for some reason. I suppose the big difference between Smith and Flynn is Smith has played an absolute ton of games, including leading his team to the brink of the Super Bowl in 2011. Kansas City made a deal to eliminate the competition, eliminate the drama and secure Smith. They took care of business there because they got to a point where they decided they had to have Alex Smith.
Flynn on the other hand has two career starts. He is not what I’d call a prototype for Reid’s offense, which isn’t really an orthodox WCO at all. The NFL has looked at Flynn and basically passed… as a rookie, as a free agent. And now as a trade option they’re passing again. Reid wanted Smith. Like wanted him badly. Flynn was never an option it seems, never in the equation.
Really what the Seahawks need is a team who sees Flynn in the same way Andy Reid saw Smith. And that team, unfortunately, doesn’t exist. And it’s a tough time to be trying to sell a timing, orthodox WCO quarterback with the entire league obsessed with the read option and mobility. EJ Manuel could be a first round pick because of this hysteria. Hey, he could go before Barkley. C’est la vie. It’s the latest trend.
Unfortunately it seems the NFL has looked at Flynn and decided ‘backup’. Sure, there are plenty of teams out there who would take him ala Drew Stanton or Matt Moore. But that’s what he is. And nobody is going to trade for that and pay the player $6-7m.
Smith has the prototypical size, a stong arm, a pedigree (former 1st pick overall), and a recently developed ability to avoid bad decisions and be better than just a game manager.
Flynn doesn’t have prototypical size, the arm, the pedigree (pretty much a career backup), but he has shown some scrappy game drive management to move a team down the field.
Flynn could go on to be a much better starter than Smith but Smith still has some appeal as a guy that could still develop into a franchise QB given a new team, better coaching, etc., etc.
What has Smith ever shown that makes you think he can, “be better than just a game manager”???
Smith was actually playing better than he ever had in his career last year before missing a start with an injury. His coach acknowledged this but still decided it was time to move on to Kap, probably because of the success Seattle and Washington were having with young, mobile, strong armed QBs.
He has shown he can be a playoff caliber game manager with talant around him, Flynn has only shown that he can put up points against a terrible lions team with the best offense in the nfl around him. Nobody was all that psyched when we added him last year and all he is done since then is have arm fatigue during a preseason in which he was only getting a third of the reps.
i don’t see Flynn being moved this year. The options are few now since Jets signed Garrard. So Jags and Oakland if they cut Palmer? No, Flynn is not being traded.
I think they’ll struggle to get anything for Washington or Flynn.
Hawks also have that strategy of waiting until other rosters are set and then asking some guys to take less money or be cut. This may be the route they go with one or both assuming they don’t need the minimal cap gains by cutting them before that.
I wonder if they tried to move Washington prior to the Harvin trade. There’s not really a high price tag for teams looking for a kick returner, so the Hawks wouldn’t have that as leverage. The preparation to this looks shoddy when you look at what the 9ers gave up for Boldin, a guy who had twice the production in his carrier at the same time from as Harvin.
I don’t think career stats matter here. It is accurate to say that Harvin is firmly in his prime (and still very young at 24), while Boldin is most definitely wrapping up the last 203 years of his career.
Even in a very shortened season for Harving, he had 62 receptions (compared to Boldin’s 65), 677 yds and 3 TD’s (compared to Boldin’s 921 and 4).
This is most definitely not shoddy, and if we see the Hawks window for a Super Bowl opening up this season, it makes sense to go all in this year.
You’re ignoring the fact that BAL was either going to trade Boldin or cut him. They were NOT going to pay him $6m this season. Getting a draft pick, even a 6th rounder, is better than nothing.
Also, none of us knows how interested SF was in acquiring Harvin other than they were in the hunt. I read somewhere (wish I could cite it) that according to MIN, SEA was the most aggressive of the teams interested in trading for PH. To be sure, much of that is simply because of the caliber of player he is. But it’s not a stretch to think that it’s also partly because PC did not want to see PH in a 49er uniform.
Additionally, despite Boldin’s numbers in the playoffs, he wasn’t much of a factor during the season. Conversely, at the time PH went on IR last season, he was leading the NFL in total yards and as much an MVP candidate as his teammate AP.
And finally, PH hasn’t even entered his prime. Boldin is pretty much past his.
Trades between brothers should be illegal.
Peterson went on to praise him even higher than that. “Best all-around player he’s ever seen” or something to that regard. Still Harvin is a total stud that will cost some cash but so will all these players at some point or another so might as well jump in the pool when the water is fine and start swimming.
The draft impact is not even close to over in that they will move up or down to go get specific guys they believe will be “must haves”. The comments by the FO as to draft choices not even making this team spelled it out to me.
John gets paid to manage the cap amongst other things and we were SO USED TO INCOMPETENCE previously that when real football people start doing their jobs we put our collective gaurds up in defense. Have pity on your hands and stop wringing them so much. LOL!
Rob,
Great trade. Winner tends to be the team that got the best player and I’ll take Harvin over what’s available late in the 1st. I also have faith in our front office to find value in later rounds.
The cap is now working against us, and because of that, I don’t think we can afford the luxury of paying a back up 7 millon. Since this FO is all about “out-the-box thinking”, here’s one for you…….trade Flynn to the Jets for Tebow.
Reasons….
1. No one would ever think that Tebow was challenging Wilson for the starting spot, Tebow could play fullback (along with Robinso), and the options that this would open up would spread defenses out all over the field. If Tebow could work anywhere in the NFL, Seattle might be it.
2. Tebow and Harvins history together.
3. Frees up cap space.
No! Then we have to hear Skip Bayless even more… How we win because Tebow willed Wilson to victory from the bench haha
I’m not a fan of the drama around Tebow, but I doubt the insanity follows him to Seattle. He’s not a great passer, that bothers me. In fact he’s a terrible passing QB. But somehow he has won games. And as a backup, maybe he could be serviceable? I don’t know.
Part of me also wants our backup to just be some cheap 4th or 5th round pick we can train up. No drama. No more questions and discussion about the backup. That sounds like a dream.
As for the Jets they signed David Garrard today. So it’s unlikely they’d add Flynn. I’m not sure who would trade for him today.
lol
We can still draft a qb in the 5th, look for a cheap option with NFL experience (Vince Young?) and bring in Tebow….if nothing else we know how much Pete likes competition.
Tebow is a terrible passer…full stop. That said, he wins, he’s athletic, can show the defenses a different look and can be used in a multitude of ways.
Worth exploring in my opinion.
Hell no to Tebow. We can do anything at Backup, but that’s not a good option.
Draft one, Old vet one, whatever. (I prefer to draft one late, because RW is like a vet already)
But, we should keep Flynn until we trade him. And we should trade him for Draft pick.
I’d like to see our 3rd rounder back next year maybe. OR maybe this year package up a pick and get another 2nd rounder by moving him. (So two picks in the 2nd plus Harvin. That would be sweet)
I say we “show case” Flynn in this years preseason, if we can’t trade him. Bulk his stats way up. Play him with starters. Go all out with playcalling during the preseason with him.
THEN – we boost his stock more and find a trade partner for sure.
Cutting him should be last resort. Wilson is still cheap to hold onto him for now.
Also, gives us another year of quality backup.
-If we cut L. Washington and Obam that will be enough for this year. Harvin can already be signed with no cuts currentley.
Next year,
We can look at cutting or restructuring Flynn, S. Rice, Tate, etc.
(Maybe Trade G. Tate???? Another option to think about)
no way Flynn gets cut. Minimal savings if any (depending on price of replacement)
It’s possible, Michael. Savings not much worse than via trade. Grand total savings of nearly $10m in cash.
Possible, yes. Probable? I don’t know…
Yes there is some good cash savings, but cutting him would only save you about $1.25MM in “cap savings” this season due to the $6MM you would have to pay him even after cutting him. Then you gotta go out and find a new backup QB, and even if you do that with a rookie minimum deal you’re paying that guy $375K.
I see little reason to cut a guy you’re already familiar with for a net savings of less than a million bucks of cap space.
Yep… possible not probable. But then I don’t think there’s a probable option with Flynn. Just possible’s.
The cap saving is low ($3.5m over two years) but the overall cash saving is closer to $10m. Even Paul Allen doesn’t want to pay $10m for a clipboard holder. And I think we stress too much about the backup, I’m a bit bored of talking about Matt Flynn. Other teams just throw rookie’s in there who fit their offense. I want to do that. No fuss, no debate. Maybe some trade value down the line. I’m tired of having a ‘name’ backup that constantly becomes a talking point. Today’s a great example… we’re talking about Flynn instead of Percy Harvin. I cannot wait for our backup QB to be a complete irrelevance.
let’s talk about right tackle instead
(grin)
🙂
Yeah but you are comparing it to a vacuum. A veteran backup is probably going to cost you $6m for those same 2 years. Allen is going to pay some dead money every year, usually in the form of draft pick signing bonuses who don’t make the team from the year before. It’s just part of the cost of doing business. Seahawks are a profitable business, so the $4m does not come close to coming out of Allen’s pocket.
So don’t sign a veteran backup. Pay a rookie $800k instead of a veteran $6m. It’s what several other leading franchises do.
Probably a good possibility, depending on who they find, they could also still hold onto him for the year but if they go that route, I expect them to ask him to renegotiate after rosters are set.
The savings occurs next year, not this year.
For a team that is about to invest top dollar in a WR, and a roster thats ready to make a SB push you dont generally want a rookie or a bad back up at QB.
Look at what two bad losses cost us in the Detroit and Miami, imagine for whatever reason we lose two bad games we should win and somewhere Wilson get banged up for two more games. For a top team a reliable back up means more then what they do for bottom team. I doubt it will happen but ideally we’d want Flynn to take a pay cut and stay with us. Unless we can find a veteran qb who’s mobile and a team first guy. I’d feel good with someone like Josh Portis, mobile knows the system… cheap.
What if Aaron Rodgers gets banged up for two games? Or Drew Brees?
Why are we worrying about this to such an extent?
I like the out of the box thinking man, and I actually like Tebow on this team (obvious significant shortcomings noted…repeat; OBVIOUS SIGNIFICANT SHORTCOMINGS NOTED), but I don’t think he saves much money, dude is getting paid.
If we trade Matt Flynn we are gonna need a backup QB, not a FB conversion project. QB’s throw the ball, Tim Tebow can’t throw the ball. We already have a great full-back, so I don’t see any place for Tebow on this roster.
True, and most of the QBs in this draft, even the first rounders, are projects.
Jets signed David Garrard
I like the mention of Quinton Dial from Alabama. He just looks like a Seahawk Dlineman. Didn’t put up great stats but look at the guy. He is a monster. His combination of size/strength/athleticism might make him a good future replacement for Bryant. Very rare.
And now we have reports of Desmond Bryant coming to the Hawks. Let us hope this acquisition happens. I am stoked. Projecting the draft when the team has not gone thru the FA period is a waste of time. PC/JS generally address their biggest needs in FA and let the draft play out BPA.
A waste of time? It’s all part of the process. Free agency changes things sometimes, but not every time. It changed nothing twelve months ago.
If it is a waste of time, then I have wasted about 1/4 of my life over the last couple months… Love SDB!
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013-nfl-offseason/2013/3/11/4091488/seahawks-interested-in-free-agent-dt-desmond-bryant
Works for me!
Predicting anything is a waste of time but there are lots of amazing things that are wastes of time and talking about the draft is one of the funniest waste of times there is for a football fan besides we got.nothing better to waste time with tell Sunday’s start.counting
My wife believes football as an entity is a waste of time.
My wife too. Of course I think the ‘Twilight’ movie series and ‘Downtown Abbey’ are complete wastes of time. I guess it goes both ways.
Yeah my wife is obsessed with Downton Abbey. what a waste of time THAT is.
I don’t know dudes, it works a s a good split in my homestead, with the football and the downtown abbey! balance, gents….
My wife and I agree with all of the above – Downton Abbey is a huge waste to me, football is a huge waste to her.
That said, I asst. coach at a HS and get paid so I have a trump card – she’s never gotten a penny for watching TV or teaching kids to do it.
In the UK Downton Abbey’s latest series broadcast at the same time (9pm) that most Seahawks games begin. So I was watching Seattle with my headphones on via the laptop… she was watching that ‘program’ on the TV. She didn’t appreciate the constant cheering, shouting and swearing during her favourite show.
The meaning of life is finding fun ways to waste time between doing what you have to do to survive an sleep.
I believe that just about all wives feel the same way rob
Girlfriends too. And exactly so – Downton Abby vs. Seahawks.
It’s comforting to know I’ve got comrades in arms out there 🙂
If they don’t like the defensive talent why wouldn’t they bring in a Dez Bryant and while your at it i wouldn’t mind taking a look at Phillip Wheeler for the will position. Then we have the whole draft to do BPA. We kindia did this last year with Barret Ruud, when Bobby Wagner work out we traded Barret off for a 7th round pick.
People think Harvin is a bad guy and you want to bring in fez Bryant the dude that punched his mom?
Wrong “dez,” Desmond Bryant is a harvard educated Dlineman, who is also famous for having an awesome mugshot on a dui charge. The Dez you are thinking about is a grown ass man who needs Jerry Jones to baby sit him
I love the trade for Harvin and I would be just fine with a Tebow/Flynn swap too (doubtful that happens now with Girard news). The doubters and non believers of the Harvin trade will change their tune the first time they see him in a Seahawk game, guaranteed. All you out there who loved Austin and Swoope should be estatic by the acquisition of Percy Harvin. Tebow is a topic for another time but if you werent blinded by your hate for Tebow you would see the postitive attributes he would bring as a person and as a football player.
Have faith in PC and JS, they have a long term plan. They didn’t do this trade and now suddenly say now what do we do, they already know. The D will be more than fine next season and the salary cap will work out, you will see. JS is not letting anyone get away that he wants to keep.
Go Hawks!
That name shall not be uttered here.
ditto, If RW went down the whole offense would change cause Tebow cannot throw.
What about cut/trade/rework Rice/Miller/Washington.
FA
D. Alexander (WR) – can be a number 1, but won’t demand high money, only 24 yrs old
D. Bryant (DT) – can be 3 tech
I suspect they’re done going after WR’s. I also doubt there’s enough money to go after DT’s at the top tier in free agency.
What # does he wear? He wore #12 with the vikings.
My guess is 17 or 19. Sid Rice wears 18. WR Brian Walters would have to cough up 19 provided he made the team. Something tells me he might be expandable.
I guess he wears another number.
Maybe join the #88 club for his ‘legacy’?
So in my eyes the Harvin acquisition means 1 of 4 things with regards to the pass rush:
1. He was made available at a price the Hawks simply couldn’t ignore, and they believed his contribution on the offense would outweigh that of a first round DL.
2. They were unimpressed with the talent that would be around @ 25, and didn’t feel anyone was worth moving way up for.
3. Dan Quinn feels comfortable with the players already on the roster, or has identified someone in the draft he really likes that isn’t considered a first round talent.
4. They are in the process of courting a FA they can bring in to bolster the line.
Number 4 is correct. I think they are wooing Desmond “Elephant Seal” Bryant. I have no idea how they will be able to afford him though.
There’s not going to be much money left for ‘wooing’ after they sign Harvin. Jason La Canfora is saying $12m a year plus.
yes $12 a year… but it won’t be $12 each year. It will probably hit $7 or $8 this year and go up a couple mil a year or something cap-wise. So we could still have plenty to pay a Desmond Bryant.
Possibly, but then Harvin’s deal goes up while Bryant’s stays where it is. So it becomes tough to re-sign others. We’ll see what happens — I’ll happily hold my hand up and admit I was wrong if they sign Bryant. I think it’s more likely they re-sign Branch.
I think it comes down to one thing and one thing only — Harvin was considered far superior to any of the options available at #25.
But if Flynn, Leon W, Obamanu R gone… With RW $ so low, Harvin just makes it equal to a degree…
Maybe with Stephen Williams, 6-5 WR, and the Basketball TE 6-7, they have affordable options for success… we don’t know- but they do… maybe they get a ‘joker’ TE – H back – BIG WR later and cement it all.
They have a plan, and draft ‘days’ will B awesome to watch unfold! WooHoo!!!
Personally, I’ll be surprised if Williams and Fells make the final roster. They’re two ‘look-see’ guys. I hope they’re the next Brandon Browner, but I’m not getting my hopes up. I suspect they’ll add a TE at some point, or another big receiver. We’ll see. But I think defense will be the focus now.
Supposedly PC/JS have had players coming to them, wanting to play for the ‘Hawks (perhaps for less $$), you’d have to think that sentiment would be enhanced with this trade.
Was it far superior to signing another $10+M free agents PLUS one of the options at #25?
It seems to me that Pete Carroll and John Schneider are doing in free agency is looking for experienced, highly productive free agents on offense that know their offense and drafting or finding cheap free agents with strong athleticism and desireable physical traits on defense. We haven’t signed one high priced free agent on defense. All drafts, cheap free agents, or cheap trades. We’ve re-signed our own guys, but haven’t signed a big name defensive free agent.
I wonder if this is because Pete is honest about his expertise. He trusts he and his defensive coaching staff can find and coach up defensive players quickly. He seems to believe that athleticism and instinct is more important on defense, while experience and athleticsm are needed for offense.
He’s definitely living the philosphy Holmgren mentioned more than a few times: Veterans on offense, go young on defense. Or something to that effect.
There’s no free agent this year I’d spend $10m on. There rarely ever is. Mario Williams last year, maybe. But there’s nobody like that this year.
Rob I’m of the opinion the mike Wallace + the draft capital would be better the Percy harvin what do you think?
Wallace is an expensive one trick pony. Harvin has elite potential as a playmaker.
Elvis Dumervil requesting to be released. LEO candidate?
Expensive.
Sadly that will be the answer for most free agency questions from here on out.
Yep – Seattle has essentially put it’s stock into Harvin. I’m looking at filler’s now at DT and LB and really that’s about it. Could see Branch and Hill back for all we know.
agreed.
Great LEO candidate.
Yes, but unless teams fear his injury past then he’s out of our rang
No, 3/4 OLB candidate. Short, Slow, does have long arms, I guess that’s a plus, can’t play the run anymore….
Rob,
Is trading up for Sheldon Richardson still a possibility? Do we have enough draft capital?
Unfortunately not. That ship has sailed.
I’m really stunned at how willing so many Hawk fans are willing to part ways with Flynn over cap space. For one, he is worth something as there aren’t that many quality back up QB’s in the league. Secondly, he really isn’t that expensive. Thirdly, we don’t have any other QB’s on the roster and some of you would prefer to fall back on a late round unproven rookie?
Lastly, one of the biggest misnomers about the Hawks cap space is how little there is to work with. There’s always contracts that can be reworked, extended, money to move around. I seriously doubt Schneider would make a move for Harvin if he didn’t already have contingency plans and I really don’t believe that includes cutting quality players. Just my two cents I know.
He’s among the highest paid players on the roster, to be a backup. So I think that’s at the heart of the problem here.
Personally, yes I would be willing to fall back on a rookie. Just like Green Bay did with Flynn all those years ago. Just like I presume San Francisco will do now that they’ve traded Alex Smith.
And I look at the Packers, the Saints, the Patriots… and none of these teams seem to spend much time talking about their backups. I crave that for Seattle.
Yeah, I agree with what Rob just said…..
But, cutting him doesn’t seem very smart. Rather trade him. If not, you can afford him 1 more year I think, and hopefully showcase his skills some.
I also think RW is smart and a body frame to stay healthy anyway. He seems like a solid healthy person who knows how to take a hit.
I see Kaperick more the type to take a big hit, with his lanky frame and lots of running.
I think the hope might be with Harvin – That RW won’t HAVE to run as much. Harvin will actually get open. Or Harvin can do those runs. 😉
I think the league is probably at a point now where they’ve seen what Flynn offers and there’s just not a great deal of interest there. I mean, how much can he truly prove in relief during a blow out? He is what he is essentially. He went in the 7th round despite being a high profile QB at LSU. He was the backup at Green Bay and the big game against Detroit has perhaps inflated opinions on his stock.
We’ve just seen the Seahawks trade for Harvin who could, theoretically, be a dynamo as the slot target of the read option, creating a unique triple threat. And if Wilson goes out with injury, you’d have to abandon that because Flynn can’t do the read option. I suspect they will draft a mobile QB with the intention of making him the backup. And then they either try to force a trade (increasingly unlikely IMO) or move him on and make the savings.
I didn’t mean just show case him in a blowout, but also in preseason.
I’m not sure the league knows anything about Flynn yet to be honest. He’s still so unproven and does offer a lot of upside. He’s been beaten out by Rodgers and now RW. He didn’t play bad to lose out, just not good enough.
I respect your thoughts, but I think he could very easily be traded. We’ll see I guess. I think our FO could get that done.
We could always go back to a traditional offense I think. In fact, I think RW even can. He can be a pocket passer with the best of them. We are just more wide open in the spread read option and RW was best when he was on the move. He bought our wides more time to get open. Something that might change a little less now that we have Harvin.
Maybe the now possible bundling of players will make Flynn more appealing.
Flynn, Leon W, Maybe Baldwin / Rice (depending on the draft and Stephen Williams ‘working’)…
I think they will let Rice & Harvin overlap for a year for chemistry…
If we added a dynamic ‘joker’ catching TE now in the draft? WOW… our offense will KILL–>
Wilson all ready made all of our WR/TE’s better, now add Percy?! He will make everyone better, even Lynch with fewer touches. Which will help him last longer in his career. Multiple solutions here. Solved…
Bundling Flynn w Leon is a no brainer. Trade for even a swap up…
I’m not sure Hawkfin. The league seems to think they know enough about Flynn to make a judgement here. And what upside does he truly offer? He’s approaching 30, hasn’t got great physical tools. I think we overrate him so much.
Did you say $12 mil a year? Way too much if that is the case. We better do something about Rice/Baldwin/Washington/Flynn. Restructure/trade/cut.
Would have preferred to get Hopkins in draft and get Bryant in FA.
Baldwin? He is on his UDFA contract. I am sure it is less than .5 m/year.
Also I am not saying Harvin will drop his demands a lot, but one must consider the relationship when comparing his demands in Seattle to those in Minn. Minn was likely getting a higher price than just about any team in the league given the relationship with Harvin.
Baldwin is due 555k this year… we still can use him and at that price i’d rather keep him than Obo at this point who is due 2.3mil
I actually think that if the Hawks are truly interested in Bryant they will get there man. Lets be reasonable on the Contracts. 5-6 m a year would be very resonable for Bryant.
If we are being realistic Seattle had zero major signings last offseason, and to add one this year is realistic.
Even moreso, adding Bryant to that is extremely realistic.
Look at the cuts that I expect to make, and tell me why they would not cut the person in order to add the pair of Bryant and Harvin this year.
Obo 2.5 m
Washington 2.5 m
Flynn 1.25 m this year (no hit next is very significant)
This more than pays for the high end of Bryant at a 6 m per year average
I have been saying that Rice and Miller are likely restructures for a long time.
It is possible to cut around 2-3 m per year from these contracts.
Another contract that we are missing is that of Clemons. I know it may be less likely, but his salary is nearly 9 m this year. I could see him being flexible with the only team that ever gave him a real shot(this would not be the case without the knee injury, and I still don’t think it is as likely as Rice and Miller)
Again I think if Bryant is FA target #1(Harvin was a Draft trade IMO) then the Hawks will get there man.
It certainly is plausible with those cuts, Jon. My only concern is that you’re paying another ‘outsider’ $5-6m while proven guys on the team earn much less. And they’ll need to start re-signing guys next off-season and having lots of outsiders on big contracts will make life tricky. Harvin is a unique case but he could be earning $10-12m a year. Is Bryant a unique case? I’m not so sure. I think this might be left to round 2-3.
I actually agree that it is more likely to be a draft pick.
My point was mostly in reaction to the thought that we could not do anything meaningful the rest of the way in FA.
Sadly, I think one Bryant (Desmond) will be too expensive for us, even with the Tom Cable connection and the general appeal of playing for a SB contender. It could still happen (there are many ways to skin the salary cap cat), but it doesn’t look good.
Fortunately, however, there is another Bryant out there who (eventually) might be just as effective, or even better for SEA, even though he plays a different position. I’m talking about Armonty Bryant, and I now consider myself officially on Kip’s Armonty bandwagon (Hey Kip, he’s not YOUR Monty, he’s not MY Monty, he’s OUR Monty!)
It’s really hard to reach a definitive conclusion about a prospect based on a highlight reel set to cheesy music, and it’s always risky trying to evaluate a FCS prospect given the disparity between Div-I and Div-II competition (particularly on the O line). But I think Bryant is an exception.
You can argue that he’s a man playing among boys, such that all his bull rushing and block shedding prowess won’t necessarily translate against NFL caliber tackles. But there’s no arguing that the man is a ball hawk. He seems to read plays in real time, such that even if he sells out to the pass rush at the snap, and the play turns out to be a run, he’s able to alter his attack and end up either making the play outright, or being a key factor in ending it at or near the LOS. You can’t coach a player to have that kind of nose for the ball. He either has it or not, and Armonty has it in spades. His current physical stature screams LEO, and if he’s able to add some muscle (which seems entirely plausible), he might even get some rotation at the 3T position. JSPC like versatility, and he’s exactly that even without the extra bulk – he’s a special teams kick blocking terror.
BTW, notwithstanding the foregoing, I think Rob is correct (at least in principle) that SEA changes its tact and targets the best big bodied run stopping DT available in the 3rd or later rounds. A potent offense that puts points on the board also puts an opponent (say that 5 times fast) on its heels. Shut down their run game early and suddenly it’s advantage Hawks pass rush (even without a pocket collapsing 3T).
I’m going to miss seeing Datone Jones in Wolf Grey, mostly because I’d convinced myself that’s where JSPC was going and I liked it. But I also have a feeling I may forget all about him the first time RW and PH hook up for 6.
I’m still trying to wrap my head around on this trade and how it affects this draft. I heard a few mention that there might be a draft pick coming back our way or a swap of a pick I guess I’ll have to wait and see after he signs. What I do know now is Ben Obamanu place is taken and I think you’ll still see a WR taken to replace Butlers spot but much later in the draft. Its kindia exciting, this wednesday draft mock should look crazy.
I’ve heard 4years for 20 million for a Dez Bryant at 2 tech, is that still possible Rob and i wonder what Phillip Wheeler might be looking for since the Seahawks aren’t to inspired by the defensive depth of this draft class?
I found ths tweet from Jason La Canfora interesting:
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora
been saying for a while trade market would be robust this offseason. Harvin, Smith already done. Revis and Flynn still on deck. more to come
Lumping Revis and Flynn into the same sentence? Almost sounds like he knows something.
Hope so. I just think we’re running out of desperate teams and despite all the hand wringing over this draft class… someone is going to buy into Smith, Barkley, Manuel, Wilson, Glennon and Nassib.
Of those QB prospects, only Smith, Barkley and (maybe) Nassib could possibly be considered a better option than Flynn. IMO Manuel is way over hyped, and I just can’t see Wilson or Glennon cracking the first 2 rounds.
BUF has its sights on Nassib. NYJ just signed Garrard. Doesn’t matter what ARI does, there’s no way we trade within the division like that (besides I think they like Barkley and might swap first picks with DAL who wants Richardson BAD)
I don’t know where to put Smith. I just don’t see OAK making him the 3rd pick. IF Smith makes it to the 2nd, then I think JAX takes him. If not, I’ve got to think they’re the leading contender for a Flynn trade partner.
I disagree there. I think nearly all of them are better than Flynn or at least have superior upside (vastly so in some cases). Plus they’re all considerably younger. But then I also think Flynn is vastly overrated and for me the league is basically saying “no thanks”. He had an ice cold market 12 months ago and nothing seems to have changed.
It seems seahawks often forget this. Flynn simply is not highly regarded around the league. He is just not.
I tend to think that the, “We can’t trade the guy within the division!!” thing is really overblown. It seems to me that it is considered on a case by case basis as opposed to a hard and fast rule. If you think the guy can really play it makes sense to keep him out of your enemies hands, but most trades don’t involve incredibly dangerous players. IE: I would be surprised to see Revis end up on the Pats, but it would not have surprised me at all if the Cardinals had aquired Alex Smith.
Donovan McNabb was traded in the division, and I don’t think any sleep was lost over that in Philly. If the Cardinals come knocking with a decent draft pick in exchange for Matt Flynn, why the hell wouldn’t they accept it? We clearly know that Russell Wilson is better than Flynn. Are Pete and John gonna be shaking in their boots over the idea of having to face a team twice a year who is fielding an inferior signal caller? I really don’t think so.
I agree the rationale people use is a bit off base (for a number of reasons).
People seem to forget that not only would Seattle have to play Flynn 2x a year, but so would the 49ers and the Rams.
Our relative position against those teams is unchanged regardless of how good Flynn is (we all have to play him), and as long as we get as much benefit out of the deal as Arizona does, our relative strength against them should be unchanged as well.
I suspect Bruce Arians has been brought in to work with a rookie… as he did with Luck. They probably have very little interest and just tendered Brian Hoyer.
Arians has tons of experience working with rooks. He’ll want his own guy.
I will believe it when I see it. I relly think Rob is right on Flynn stock. Though with the trades happening this year I still see a 3-4 rounder as his absolute ceiling
Also, according to La Canfora, the Hawks are actively shopping Leon Washington, though that should be expected at this point.
I’m admittedly worried about Harvin being a return man for us. He’s electric in the role, but his main role should be on offense. Getting injured in the return game is a concern. Hopefully, they use him judiciously enough that he’s not constantly taking big hits. Health is a much bigger risk than character, in my view. That said, his explosiveness in said return game might result in an extra win or two, much like prime (and pre-rules change) Leon Washington. It will be interesting to see how they use him with regard to special teams.
Golden Tate and Percy Harvin can share the KR/PR roles. Trading or releasing Leon Washington, Ben Obomanu and Matt Flynn, plus what the #25 pick would have been paid, will cover most of Percy’s salary. Renegotiate Zach Miller to cover the rest.
Could also draft Dennard Robinson to do KR and backup the role Harvin will play. I don’t see Harvin making that kind of money and being a full time KR/PR. Tate could be PR and Robinson KR.
Trying to project what John & Pete were thinking (good luck with that!) heading into the draft, I believe there were only 7 players that they valued as worthy of their round one pick, based on a combination of need and talent: Leo’s Jarvis Jones, Barkevious Mingo, Ezekiel Ansah and Dion Jordan; and DTs Sharrif Floyd, Sheldon Richardson and Star Lotulelei. None of them would have been available at #25. Therefore, the choice was “trading up” or taking a lesser player. The Seahawks, as Field Gulls and others have pointed out, essentially traded up. The #25 pick, the 7th round pick, and the 3rd rounder from next year, according to the draft trade chart, is the going rate to trade up to the #20 pick. None of the 7 players noted above may have been available even at #20, but for that price, the Seahawks instead land Percy Harvin, the most electric playmaker in football, and who would have been the #1 selection in the draft this year….and he is only 24 years old, the same age as Russell Wilson. This is the very definition of a brilliant trade. The Seahawks are a far better team than they were 24 hours ago, or would have been after day one of the NFL draft picking at #25.
” Percy Harvin, the most electric playmaker in football, ”
I’m with your general point, but no way do I consider Harvin the most electric playmaker in football. He wasn’t even the most electric playmaker on his own team last year.
He’s a nice piece but let’s not go bonkers here.
“Percy Harvin, one of the most electric playmakers in football”
/fixed
Not quite as “electric” as the league’s MVP… unforgivable.
No need for forgiveness, but Harvin is getting a wee bit overblown here. He’s a very good player.
What are your thoughts on other late round trade options like Blount or Arrelious Benn from the Bucs? I saw they are both being shopped for mid to late rounders. Blount could really fill that bruiser that we are always trying to bring in.
It’d have to be a really low pick (7th rounder) to tempt me on Blount. I like the RB depth this year. As for Benn, I’ll pass.
I would take Blount for a 7th. His attitude has been pretty good since entering the NFL if I can remember right and runs well especially for most likely being the 3rd RB on the Hawks. If Benn were to get a new contract he could be a cheaper and younger (24) Obomanu.
Turbin is great in the role. Blount was terrible in short-yardage situations last year – something that should be his strength. I’ll pass. More snaps for Turbin and Turbin actually owns hands.
Turbin could have a breakout year this year, imo. Could get 1k yards even while Beastmode gets his 1.5k.
Blount has had fumble issues too, if memory serves me.
We don’t need RB or WR. We need DE/DT/Leo/WLB/Nickel corner.
5 spots. Would like to get another 2nd/3rd
If Red’s feet are healthy and Mebane comes into camp trim and ferocious, they might be able to forgo DT for another year, also they have some young guys who could step up at nickel. I think your list is dead on but in a pinch, I’d rank LEO and WLB above the others, probably in that order. They could also use some high upside projects at OT, WR, FS, and TE on the lower priority, draft-em-if-they’re there list, assuming their aren’t better options at the higher priorities.
Who wouldn’t like to get another second this year. Or any other for that matter.
I think they’ll draft an RB real. Late this year. Especially with Leon likely moving on. I love Miguel Maysonet from Stony Brook. There’s some tape on him out there, too
I hope Rayon Simmons out of Winona State is going to be our 3rd back next year. I can’t believe how much shake and vision he has for someone that’s 225 or so.
You forgot ROT.
Would like to see some maneuvering to come away with:
M. Hunt, K Greene and T. Mathieu. A dline pass rusher, a will and a nickel corner
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree on Flynn, Rob. I hope you’re right if they cut him loose but to equate him with an unproven rookie is a bit of a stretch unless said rookie has above average mobility and awareness. I really don’t think Carroll would agree with the general assesment of Flynn either. As fans, we really don’t know which teams are interested in anyone. What we sometimes hear is which teams are interested in paying the asking price. That doesn’t necessarily mean the market is dead for his services.
As for the cap dollars, it doesn’t matter if you’re paying more to the backup at QB if you’re paying less for the starter. At least if you’re looking at cap allocation on a positional basis anyway. I do believe that Flynn is a poor fit for this particular offense at this particular time. If he had a steady oline in front of him he’d be a lot better. Wilson makes our line look a lot better than it is. Of course all the great ones do that.
Having said all that, I too would like to see the deck cleared for this to be Wilson’s team and it wouldn’t hurt me to see Flynn go. I just don’t want to see him go for nothing and for an inferior replacement. If Wilson goes down in a playoff game I do think Flynn can carry the team through for a win. The Ravens have a SB win with Dilfer at the helm after all.
A couple of points I’d make here Rich. Firstly, my view on disinterest in Flynn is really based on two things. Last year his market was ice cold and Seattle kind of did him a favour. I’m not sure what the alternative was there. And now we see KC go after Alex Smith, New York go after David Garrard. Jacksonville’s talking up Blaine Gabbert. I just don’t see where the suitor is. So in all these years in the NFL, Flynn is graded as a 7th round pick, a free agent without many interested parties and now potentially a player stuck in a back up role because nobody appears interested in trading for him.
Secondly, I think it does matter if the backup earns $7.25m and the starter earns peanuts. For starters, you’re wasting money on a player who doesn’t see the field. Secondly, that money could be better used elsewhere. And finally, it eliminates any kind of competition mantra in camp. Wilson is the starter, but the backup job should be challenged in camp IMO. That’s what Carroll is basing his ethos around — competition. And a $7.25m backup isn’t getting displaced without getting cut. I want to see young guys challenging for the role. Not a guy being paid one of the best salaries on the roster to wear a cap and coat.
As I said in another comment, I think the fact we talk so much about Flynn is why I want to move on in a bad way, whether that’s by cutting or trading him. Patriots fans don’t talk about Ryan Mallett like this. The Saints fans aren’t panicking because Chase Daniels is a free agent. And I don’t even know who Green Bay brought in to replace Flynn. It wasn’t a big name. I’m tired of debating the fortunes and future of our $7.25m backup quarterback. I want to get rid, have a couple of young guys fighting for that role and I want to watch Russell Wilson win football games. And if he gets injured, I think we’re pretty much screwed whether it’s Matt Flynn or Sean Renfree coming on in relief. The Ravens winning a Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer (former top ten pick, BTW) is often used as an example of winning with mediocre QB’s. It’s very rare and in a different era of football. Mediocre QB’s aren’t even winning playoff games these days.
I to am tired.of.it either they are going to trade him, cut him, or keep him I don’t think any of those three options will have a meaningful impact on our season… if they trade him it won’t be for much, if they cut him he will be a stop gap starter or a back up else were, and if they keep him he will be the back up and if he is playing slot.we will be wondering who we can get at the top of the draft next year more then anything else… think about it like this when we signed Flynn footprints last year we were all kind like alright but it’s not like we thought he was the future and we all anticipated another qb would have to be found asap. Now it is a year later and he hasn’t gotten any better he hasn’t put any new tape.out there’s if he had little to no.market coming off his career year there isn’t.going.to be any.market at all now that he just wasted a development year. He is a stop gap that’s it and teams don’t really trade for those they sign them for free on the open market or they trade for young guys.
If they did him a favor it came along with doing themselves one. They had doubts about RW in his first year and maybe overall as well. Flynn was truly brought in to see if he could run the ship. He can. Not in an RW kind of way but many voices believe Flynn is at least an NFL starter that somebody, including us, will take an interest in later in the process.
With the addition of Harvin, Flynn seems even more important. PH would go to waste if RW went down and he had some project feeling his way into the NFL. With Flynn the Harvin trade would not be nuetered. The threat we added will give either one of these guys a boost.
At some point Flynn will either get another shot somewhere (even here), or else he will have to come to terms with being a NFL back-up and be paid as such. How bad is it to be Chase Daniels anyway?
He is 30 and had 2 starts in his career, he is going to need at least a year to get his feet under him in a starters role, then your going into nexta years draft with 31 yr old QB at the helm you probably going to draft someone to take his spot. So why not get started this year with a rookie and move on from there. Let us all not forget that Flynn suffered arm fatigue last year in preseason only getting a third of the snaps, if you really want a bet stop gap why not get Matt cassel or Tavares Jackson both have done more in the league then Flynn and both will be cheaper in money and draft capital then Flynn.
With respect Woofu — I couldn’t disagree more here. If Wilson goes down then I don’t think Harvin is any more or less likely to go to waste than if a rookie was in there. I keep coming back to this — are New Orleans panicking over Chase Daniels? Who replaced Flynn in Green Bay? Who remembers Jim Sorgi, who backed up Manning for years?
Just draft the next Seneca, or Kirk Cousins, or whoever.
We must be the only team in the league talking about our backup like this. I’m longing for the day he’s gone and we can move on with a cheap clipboard holder.
LOL, Sorgi or Huard 🙂
I guess I have not put RW up there with the Mannings just yet.
I think the fact that he isn’t up there with the Manning’s (yet) if anything strengthens my point. Those teams weren’t desperately trying to find an experienced backup to protect their star. And if it’s good enough for them, then I think it’s good enough for Seattle.
I understand where you’re coming from on this Rob. I’m just not sure there’s an easy way out and happen to think Flynn can win games. I actually think Patriot fans are glad to have Mallet on their team too. Having said that, I get it. I would like the Russel Wilson era to be in place full force. However, it’s my understanding that Flynn’s contract costs $6million in dead space on the cap if we release him. Meaning you’re not saving much by cutting him this season.
Assuming that’s correct, we might as well hold onto him. Now next off season on ther other hand, well, that might be a wise move for sure.
It would be fun having some young guys fighting it out for the back up spots though. I think part of my reluctance to embrace that idea is that I don’t want to spend draft picks on guys that won’t play. That’s why I like your site so much. It’s fun to watch for the young guys as the regular season progresses.
The problem that Carroll and Bevel have is that Flynn can’t run plays that are fine-tuned for Wilson. They aren’t going to find a Wilson clone but the goal would be to find a guy who could at least run the game plan. For example, as it is right now, if Wilson had to come out of a game in the middle of the second quarter, Bevel has to tear up Wilson’s game plan and choose plays that Flynn can run. Right now, they don’t have anyone else on the roster. I believe this is the bigger issue, beyond the cap management and the can’t get value for Flynn in trade issues.
I don’t think the difference is that striking. They’d probably not run so many designed roll outs and the ZRO, but Flynn can do the drop back plays and play action just fine. I don’t think they need to tear up the game plan.
That said, I hope he’s traded because I am not reading another post about Flynn, ever.
The read option and power arm bombs go right out the window, not to mention all the other difficult throws.
This is how I would target the draft now:
Round 2: DT/DE
Round 3: DT/DE
Round 4: WR/CB Harrison and Mathieu are who I prefer
Round 5: Dennard Robinson
Round 5: WLB/Receiving TE
Round 6: Safety
Round 7: BPA
Round 7: BPA
Round 2: Carradine, Lemonier, Hunt, Montgomery, Greene, Gooden
“Ask yourself who you’d rather have the day after the first round of the draft concludes — Percy Harvin, Kawann Short, Sly Williams or DeAndre Hopkins”
Wrong question. Those guys do not represent the opportunity cost of signing Harvin. The money that could’ve been used on a different elite level player represented a larger cost than the draft picks.
The actual opportunity cost of Percy Harvin = 1st round talent PLUS elite 10M+ player. The money portion represents a higher cost than the draft pick and can’t be ignored.
True, but you have to draw the conclusions that A) they didn’t see Wallace as the answer and B) they see the window opening for a chance at greatness that warranted the overpay for a “final” piece/additional threat/bust open the box player.
Who benefits most from this trade? This could open the field up for Lynch to get 2k yards, it will leave Rice and Miller with more 1-on-1s, it will give Wilson a huge option, plus all the other weapons (Tate, Baldwin, Turbin, Fells, Real Rob, Wilson runs) to have big plays. But the biggest winner could be Bevel, as he can demonstrate the full power of armed and operational offensive juggernaut.
It’s not really the wrong question though is it? Because elite players don’t often hit the open market. They’re not often available via trade. I can’t think of anyone in free agency I’d spend $10m on. So do you not trade for Harvin based on the salary? Ignore him and just take Williams, Short or Hopkins? I’d argue that if JS and PC believe Harvin is worth the money, then for me he is worth the money.
That’s where I land, the money.
I think I would rather have:
1st Hopkins (could be a #1 and will be cheap for at least 4 years)
2nd Greene/Hunt/Short
3rd Gooden/Hill
I think our defense cost us a shot at a superbowl this year. Our offense was rolling towards the end of the season. We use the draft for (Hopkins/Hunt) and FA (Bryant/Freeney) and I would have been much happier.
We will have to see if this puts us over the top. As of now, it costs a lot and we still have major pass rush issues and no 1st rd
I’d rather think it was an overall team loss that cost them the home field advantage throughout the playoffs. Looking forward to a shot at that starting from a clean slate. Sure, they could have shut down the final Atlanta drive or better managed the final seconds, but the were running on fumes having traveled east coast again. The fun will come to Seattle this year.
This team is a SB contender right now. Most WRs don’t come in right away and have much more than mediocre production. Harvin gives us instant dynamite and could help push us over the top. We’re not re-building.
Agreed Ed, there are a lot of options that don’t make it a simple choice of Harvin vs #25 pick and the other picks involved. Harvin needs more money as well, so now it becomes the picks and whatever FAs we could’ve gotten. What receiver was available without giving up a pick?
However, if Harvin comes in and displaces Leon Washington as perhaps a KR and 3rd RB, then I can see where he’s adding value beyond what any other FA WR could’ve brought us. That to me is the key, what is Harvin’s role really going to end up being?
I’m really excited. Tons of wrinkles to throw in with Harvin. Get rid of Flynn’s, Leon’s, Obo’s contracts. Restructure Rice’s or Miller’s or possibly even Clem’s. Draft Sylvester Williams in the second. We’d be golden. I’d feel great about this team going into next year with this course of events.
Of course. That makes backup QB and 3rd string RB needs that could be potentially adressed in the draft. I like Ryan Aplin as a late pick. 6th and later.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKiotayQAc
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms5Isor_DAQ
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8_kL8XHnNPA
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9k4WT1qHB_s and a nice little leadership video!
As for RB I’m a big fan of Miguel Maysonet from Stony Brook. again sixth and later
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CCW3sKo20rs
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJcdTOTpdhE
Hey rob, if Swope falls to us in the 2nd would you take him?
Probably not. Maybe in the third or fourth, because then he’d present some real value, but the second almost definitely has to go to the DL, I think..
Actually, I tend to think the opposite.
Our stated #1 need was DT pass rusher. By his own admission, John already had his guys graded out by the combine. They knew how they felt about the group going in. That’s par for the course as far as we know it.
This deal took time. A lot of time. That tells me that least one of 2 conditions exists:
1. We didn’t like the 2nd tier of DT talent. There was no guy that made himself a must acquire figure. The fact that we are sitting there at 56, where those 2nd tier DTs are likely to be gone — it tells me that we really didn’t think much of the whole group.
2. Maybe it’s not as bad as thought. Maybe there was a ‘pocket’ of 3-4 guys we liked. But we see a day 3 guy that we think is equal to those 2nd tier guys. Still at 56, we aren’t likely to get one from that 2nd tier. But if there is a guy we think is undervalued and equivalent — that could be the day 2 head scratcher reaches that musses the hairdos on draft day but look great on opening day.
I don’t see us making this deal if we really liked any of the DTs in the 20-50 range. This to me is a possible indicator to what they are thinking internally.
Like, trade up to about 40 and take Sylvester Williams. He offers better pass rush than Branch, while almost maintaining his level of run stop ability. His swim move is golden. He has quick feet and is strong at the point of attack. Not the most athletic, but could probably play the 3, 1, or 5 in our D.
Probably not post-Harvin trade. Not sure where he would fit in.
I’d take him if he was there at 56 but I really don’t see him falling in fact he seems to be moving up. A panther scout is talking about taking him at pick 44. I don’t see this guy as a slot receiver i think he’s so much more and with the year before last name me a Seattle WR that wasn’t injuried other thsan Baldwin.
I love this damn move. If our offense was like Pittsburgh or New England’s, I would like the move. It would still be smart and worth the draft capital.
For Seattle, I love this move. Harvin is one of those receivers that can literally do it all. Great hands, great YAC, can return the ball, can run out of the backfield. When you have a QB like Russell Wilson that can execute any play at any time with a weapon like Percy Harvin that can get a lot of yards from any play at any time, you have a mix that is dynamic and productive.
We should be able to run a ton of plays out of the base formation, read-option formation, and do a ton fo interesting things. We can attack any part of a defense now. Weak in the middle. Zach Miller and the slot reciever. Weak outside, Tate, Harvin, or Rice. Weak against the run, Harvin Marshawn, or Russell. Talk about putting defense on their heels. Man, this is a great move.
I love it as well. And I don’t think the draft compensation was overpay either. How often is an elite talent available like this? Almost never. We were only able to get this deal because Harvin was a malcontent. Works for me.
I can’t wait to see the Pistol with Harvin. Hell, I can’t wait to see RW and Harvin improvising on broken plays.
An elite talent that knows your offense and fits in extremely well with your young QB. I consider this a trade in our favor. If Harvin hits free agency after a good year in Minnesota, he”s making Wallace money or better. If he were in this draft, he wouldn’t even make it to 25.
The first round came early for us, at #25 the Seattle Seahawks select “Percy Harvin.” Two years ago it was James Carpenter and last year it was Bruce Irvin. At least we got a player that we all know a great deal about. Also we have 8 more draft picks plus a couple more supplement 7ths added in, that will make 10 still to come. We had a great first round this year, cant wait til the 2nd round.
Many thanks to Rob and Kip for all the hours you have put in. You have educated all of us on players to watch out for thruout the entire draft.
Let’s find a way to get Desmond Bryant. Then draft Margus Hunt, Mark Harrison or Courtney Gardner as a tall, fast WR, Armonty Bryant at DE and Denard Robinson as a return specialist to keep Harvin away from train wrecks!
I don’t think not having big wideouts is a big deal. Look at the Patriots. Brandon Lloyd 6-0, Wes Welker 5-9, Julian Edelman 5-10, Deion Branch 5-9, Aaron Hernandez 6-1. Their only big receiver is Gronk. Miller and McCoy are both 6-5, this new guy Fells is 6-8, and there is a plethora of mid-late round options over 6-4 who could conceivably be added.
Easy to forget Stephen Williams already?
Who?
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6064/stephen-williams
Robert,
I really like the Brant and Hunt angle. I don’t think we need another WR, maybe next year though. As for Robinson, he has abilities, but he has never returned punts or kicks. I think that would be a wasted pick. Even if we get rid of Washington, we use Harvin/Blackmon as KR (most kicks are touchbacks anyway) and use Tate/Blackmon as PR
Drafttek has Ryan Swope going to the Panthers at pick 44. His stock has been rising ever since the combine and he’s no longer a secret. Its a total shame cause I really liked the guy. Was impressed with the video where he snags the tennis balls out of the machine such great eye hand coordination.
Another name i had been watching was Quinton Dial DT from Alabama has quietly moved up into 4th round of Drafttek mock draft now. The Draft God hates me.
The FO must have had a lot of things set in motion before they made this trade because from a constant blogger looking in, this creates a lot more questions than answers. What are we going to do with Leon? Obo is certainly gone. What about Tate? He’s in his contract year. With the big cap hit, do they have a suitor for Flynn? Have they found their change of pace RB in Harvin? And what about the draft? Did they look at all their options at 25 and say, “nothing fits our needs?” Or do they have some prospects in the 2nd round that they really like? Does this mean they won’t target a tall, deep threat? What about an upgrade over Mccoy? Do they have a FA or draft pick in mind to help the pass rush? Or have Greg Scruggs and Jaye Howard shown improvement? Gahhh my head hurts.
Matt Flynn to the Raiders.
Rumors are starting to spread.
Please be true!
Rumors where? Not seen any.
NFL Network I believe. No source but the good ole Internet though. (So, questionable). Probably just stirring up conversation for the sake of it..
and the Bills just released Ryan Fitzpatrick. It looks like TJack is going to get a chance and Flynn could be in that conversation, too.
Leon released
John & Pete have done a brilliant job of building this team, both for the now and for the future. The core for the future should be here for a very long time: Russell Wilson, Russell Okung, Max Unger, Percy Harvin, Bobby Wagner, Bruce Irvin, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas. Percy Harvin was a great pickup because the “now” version of the team is ready for a Super Bowl run this year. Over the next 2/3 years, the re-signing of Wilson, Okung, Sherman and Thomas will almost certainly come at the cost of Marshawn Lynch, Sydney Rice, Zach Miller, Brandon Meban and Red Bryant. Otherwise, the numbers don’t add up. 2013 is indeed NOW time for this version of the Seahawks, and Percy Harvin is worth far more than they gave up for him.