Jaguars agreed to trade franchise DE Yannick Ngakoue to Minnesota for a second- and conditional fifth-round pick that could go as high a third-round pick, league sources tell ESPN. Ngakoue still has to sign his tender, but trade is in place and Ngakoue is expected to be a Viking.
— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) August 30, 2020
Let’s get one thing straight — the Seahawks couldn’t make this deal. Having traded away their first and third round picks next year, plus their first rounder in 2022, they couldn’t afford to give up two more picks on what could be a one-year rental.
As much as the next draft is in flux due to the question marks surrounding college football, the Seahawks are still going to need to add young, cheap talent next year with so many players on one-year deals.
Ngakoue’s salary would also be a sticking point, given he’s unable to negotiate an extension until the 2021 league year begins per the terms of the franchise tag. The Vikings will have to cut someone (Riley Reiff is the only one who can provide relief) or trade a player such as Anthony Harris.
Either that or the Jaguars will split the difference on the salary.
It simply wasn’t realistic for the Seahawks to make this deal, however, having already made a move for Jamal Adams. And with their conservative approach to contract negotiations these days, the chances are they would’ve used that second rounder and conditional pick for one season of Ngakoue (just as they did with Sheldon Richardson and, possibly, Jadeveon Clowney).
That said, this is still a trade that warrants some discussion from a Seahawks perspective.
Having signalled their desire at the start of the off-season to ‘fix the pass rush’, they’ve so far — as we all know by now — only swapped Clowney for Benson Mayowa, added Bruce Irvin and then traded up in round two for a player who’s probably going to start the year on the PUP list. They’ve not done anything at defensive tackle short of retaining Jarran Reed.
Other teams, who perhaps didn’t state fixing the pass rush was their main aim, have been so much more aggressive and pro-active.
The Vikings can now partner Ngakoue with Danielle Hunter and Anthony Barr — creating a dynamic triple-threat rush attack. Look at the following tweet:
The Vikings now have an elite duo on all three levels of their defense:
▪️Pass rusher: Danielle Hunter and Yannick Ngakoue
▪️Linebacker: Eric Kendricks and Anthony Barr
▪️Safety: Harrison Smith and Anthony HarrisA defense loaded with playmakers.
— Field Yates (@FieldYates) August 30, 2020
Someone could write something similar for the Seahawks… only instead of Hunter and Ngakoue it’d be Mayowa and Rasheem Green. If that doesn’t put the situation into full focus, what will?
Ngakoue replaces Everson Griffen, who just signed with the Cowboys. The Ravens brought in Calais Campbell and Derek Wolfe, retained Matt Judon on the franchise tag and are now being linked with Clowney. The Bears went out and signed Robert Quinn to go with Khalil Mack and the Falcons, badly needing a serious edge threat, signed Dante Fowler.
Yet the Seahawks just sit waiting and waiting, seemingly, for Clowney. Without any sign of a breakthrough. Drifting into the season so ill-prepared on the defensive line that it could jeopardise their entire campaign.
Cha, a regular contributor in the comments section, posted the following yesterday. It’s funny and brutally real at the same time:
Hawks Fans 5 Stages of Grief For the Pass Rush
DENIAL
“PC knows there won’t be a season in 2020 because of COVID.”
“PC and JS know what they’re doing. They’ve won a Super Bowl. Have YOU ever been a coach or GM?”
“Hawks are saving cap space because future years could be bad.”ANGER
“Stop talking about the pass rush! That’s all you talk about!”BARGAINING
“A better back 7 will improve the pass rush.”
“We got Jamal Adams and he’s a pass rusher.”
“Our reformed OL is a bigger problem.”
“Maybe Benson Mayowa can do a Chris Clemons.”DEPRESSION
“What’s the point of playing the season? We know how it’s going to go – It’s going to be 9-7 or 10-6 and a milquetoast playoff loss.”ACCEPTANCE
“Let’s enjoy RW while we can and marvel at special talents like DK Metcalf and Jamal Adams.”
Cha’s intentions were to provide a bit of humour, so don’t take it too seriously or personally. Yet he’s right, isn’t he? Fans and media alike have been very willing to talk themselves into believing this situation will be fine — or that there are reasons why the team has failed to address it’s most glaring and obvious need.
There’s nothing wrong with that either. If you want to bury your head in the sand and hope for the best, that’s fine. That doesn’t change the reality of the situation though. It doesn’t stop it being the defining talking point of the off-season. It doesn’t mean the subject should be parked or left alone.
It needs to be talked about daily. Questions need to be asked. Answers need to be provided.
If nobody is held to account, things will just drift. We’ll all be sat here in March wondering how the Seahawks are going to fix their pass rush for a third off-season in a row — with a decreasing salary cap, barely any picks and the need to re-sign multiple players to new contracts.
It might feel like it sometimes, but this blog isn’t the only place recognising the potential for a wasted season either. Deny it as much as you want but there’s a reason Russell Wilson has been more vocal this year and why his friends in the media have also been more critical of the franchise.
However they went about it — whether it was dealing for Ngakoue or Calais or signing one of the free agents or just getting Clowney done and dusted by now — they had to do more than hoping and praying that Benson Mayowa was going to elevate himself from career backup and replacement level player to DE1.
What comes next seems all too predictable and obvious. The Seahawks gave up 460 yards to Matt Schaub on their last visit to Atlanta to play a horrible 1-6 Falcons team riddled with injuries. How are they going to restrict Matt Ryan in week one with no pressure?
For all the talk of containing the perimeter run better (a major problem, admittedly) — the key to success against Jared Goff and Jimmy Garoppolo is pressure and forcing mistakes. Otherwise they’ll both move the ball with ease, as we saw in weeks 14 & 17. What about the playoffs? Traditionally that’s where a good pass rush ends up being a huge factor.
As Jake Heaps noted this week:
“Your defense is designed — ‘four beat five’. Four rushers can beat five and we can play our coverage, our scheme behind it.”
The Seahawks aren’t a super-creative, blitzing, attacking defense. They rush with four, play coverage and everything is about doing your job. Discipline, gap control, staying on top, not giving up the post. If you don’t have good players on your D-line, you’re going to struggle. Badly. Receivers and tight ends will uncover without pressure. You won’t be able to contain the run. You will expose your unprotected (yet expensive) linebackers and safeties.
It’s a huge feather in Seattle’s cap that they can rely on an elite quarterback. Asking him to put +30 points on the board every week, however, to cover the fact you’ve botched fixing the defensive line is neither realistic or fair on Wilson. When you set out to play complementary football as your philosophy and spend all your picks and money on linebackers and safeties — how can you then turn to your QB with a straight face and ask for help? If you want him to lead a one-man show — invest in receivers and an O-line and design everything offensively around his ability. Otherwise, you need to actually build a team capable to play the way you prefer with a closed circle.
Time is running out now to get this sorted. Jadeveon Clowney, much to Seattle’s fortune, remains available. If they’re serious about competing and serious about winning Championship’s, they have to get something done. Pronto.
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Well this is disappointing as it was rumored to be a 1st round pick plus to get him and all it ended up is a 2nd and some change. For an upcoming pass rusher. And here we traded 1st & 3rd for a safety, for the Kam Chancellor role. I’m pretty disappointed in JS/PC for this one. (And yes, maybe I’m in the minority of being spoiled by JS’s winning trades in recent past).
If it were me, I think I’d rather have done this trade YN trade over the Adams trade, plus have the ammunition of our 1st/3rd to push another trade come at trade deadline. (Which may eventually been the Adams trade but for less).
I don’t know if I would have done this trade over the Adams trade. Yes, Ngakoue is a good pass rusher. But Adams completely transforms this secondary, both in terms of play style and attitude. It was also a rare opportunity to get an elite coverage safety, an elite strong safety and a guy who can get after the QB all in one trade – and he’s 24.
Plus, Kam was nuts, but Adams is better in coverage than he was without sacrificing any of Kam’s hitting power. Although, Kam’s attitude is simply impossible to fully replicate 🙂
That secondary is now a top-5 unit without question and it solves a pass defense that was just as bad in 2019.
Now, again, this isn’t to discount the fact that the Seahawks need a pass rusher. I am still disappointed with how they handled the offseason in terms of looking for an edge. Dante Fowler or Robert Quinn (although I don’t understand why the Bears gave a 31 year-old Quinn a five year contract) would have been nice, relatively cheap options. They better sign Clowney or i don’t know how far this team can go.
Still, the Adams trade solves an issue that is harder to solve. Sacks are extremely flexible. For example, take a look at the Raiders. In 2018, they had 13 sacks. Last season, they had 32 without really changing much of their personnel. I’m not saying it’s not a problem because it is. But there is little evidence to suggest the Seahawks will not improve in terms of sack totals. Again, though, without Clowney, there is a chance they dip below their 2019 number – yikes.
Not quite right. Adams is an impressive hitter, but Kam was in another league. A destroyer, of bodies and minds.
I see the two as in the same caliber of player, even though their skillset’s and role are different. Adams being the more versatile DB, kam being an absolute sledgehammer that somehow plays in the secondary.
That said, both of them are known to hit hard. Adams is above average, to dominant, in that department. Just not generational big hitter like kam. They are also both leaders in the locker room and bring juice to a D to get them fired up.
I don’t find this disappointing in the least. What should we care about where other players go that we would never be in the market for? If anything I’m relieved, just because he didn’t land in our division, which is going to be tough enough even if the miraculous happens and we sign Clowney . . .
“could be a as high as a 3rd” isn’t change but your point is taken. If it’s a 5th then yeah, a 2nd and some change is true. As for the Adams trade, it was 2 firsts. Wouldn’t have bothered me one bit IF they had already signed Clowney or at least Griffen and IF they agreed to an extension with Adams ahead of the trade.
It’s only a R3 if they win the SB this year.
Ah, in that case you’re right Kevin. It is a 2nd and change. 🙁
“The Seahawks aren’t a super-creative, blitzing, attacking defense”
And here is the solution to the problem.
If you are unable to draft, develop and sign players helping your scheme, the best thing you can do is to play to the strengths of the existing personnel.
Not gonna happen? Yeah… ***sigh***.
Suddenly completely changing the defense would be football suicide.
It’d be like putting diesel fuel in a petrol car.
The answer to Seattle’s problem is to be better on the D-line, not try and be Todd Bowles or Gregg Williams. Likewise, if Bowles or Williams suddenly tried to run Seattle’s defense it would be a disaster.
Well isn’t this a kick in the butt
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that.
Now getting more buyers remorse
Feels like we could’ve had Ngakoue rather than Irvin and Benson for just $3-4m more? All for a 2nd and change. Can’t have everyone available based on cap but curious what his APY would be on a long term deal
On the slip side, we look fairly set at LEO IF something pans out with the rookies. It’s the 5T where we need someone like Clowney.
Irvin and Mayowa were signed 5 months ago. People are looking at this with the benefit of hindsight without acknowledging we had no idea what Ngakoue’s price would have been then.
Agreed. Can you imagine how many ulcers would have been created by this point (amongst the 12s) if the team HADN’T signed Mayowa and Irvin and instead had just “sat” on that money and still not spent it at this point? I don’t know how much lower ESPN could have ranked our line since we were already LAST, but I’m thinking that the current line without Mayowa and Irvin would be 73rd in the league (behind about 40 college teams).
Not at all.
Is today moving day?
When the off season began JS/PC said resigning Clowney was the number one priority. Clowney is still available. They need to make good on what they said and sign him ASAP! Stop messing around. With Clowney we are better and teams need to scheme him. Must sign IMO.
I think the missing piece that was not disclosed when Pete made that statement was that the priority existed within a certain budget. Although I and many others disagree with this budget constraint, it appears as if it obviously existed and has been preventing the deal to date.
Comment on Field Gulls:
“Glad Hawks passed on Ngakoue
He is definitely a good pass rusher, but it is interesting to note that on a per snap basis, Irvin and Mayowa had better pass rushing numbers last year.”
And yet Ngakoue is clearly the better player.
We’re lucky Mayowa didn’t play for Jacksonville last year or we wouldn’t have gotten him. They probably would have franchised him instead. Innocent/fun sarcasm.
😂😂😂
based on what is Ngakoue a better player vs Irvin and/or Mayowa?
Are you serious?
ok, i guess I will go first. numbers from last year with the leader in caps:
snaps per sack
Ngakoue 63, Irvin 45, MAYOWA 38
snaps per pressure
Ngakoue 19, IRVIN 16, Mayowa 18
in terms of efficiency Ngakoue is the worst of the 3 in both metrics. Additionally, he is considered one of the WORST run defenders of all DE’s in the league. PFF graded 103 DE’s and Ngakoue ranked 94th in run defense. The past 2 seasons he has been in the top 20 (out of 500) for highest missed tackle percentage. Irvin and Mayowa are 3-down players who are WAY better run defenders
On top of that the Hawks signed 2 players for $3mil less than Ngakoue took and didn’t even have to give up any draft picks. What’s more, he is a LEO DE, where we currently have Irvin, Mayowa, Taylor, Griffin, and Robinson. He does nothing to replace the current void at the 5-tech DE with Clowney gone.
He is not in the top 10 DEs for pass rush win rate (Clowney was) nor was he in the top 10 DEs most likely to get double teamed (Clowney was).
He is a good pass rusher, but he is not elite, which is why Jacksonville coldn’t even get a 1st round pick back in return and Ngakoue had to take a significant pay cut to even get the deal to go through.
The question you asked was is he better than Irvin and Mayowa. Not whether he’s ‘elite’.
So you’ve pulled out two stats from last season to try and make an argument that Ngakoue isn’t actually better than the other two players. You and I both know that’s a massively incomplete argument. What are the numbers for Ngakoue’s previous seasons in Jacksonville? How much attention did Ngakoue receive as Jacksonville’s primary pass rush versus Irvin acting as a specialist ‘extra’ rusher in Carolina or Mayowa as a rotational/backup player? How many of Mayowa’s pressures and sacks came in the first two weeks of the season and how did they impact his overall numbers when he played less and less as the season went on?
Nobody has ever argued Ngakoue is a good or adequate run defender either. He’s well known as a pass rusher. He has 37.5 sacks in a highly consistent four year career. Those are numbers that Irvin and Mayowa can’t get close to.
Your last comment, “which is why Jacksonville couldn’t even get a 1st round pick”, is kind of amusing really. Because sure, they’ve had to settle for a second rounder and a future pick. If Mayowa is better than Ngakoue, why was he a free agent for two weeks and then had to take a $3m contract? Why has Bruce Irvin always been moved back to the SAM from DE whenever given a shot to be a true LEO? How many one-sack seasons has Ngakoue had?
It’s pretty clear that Ngakoue is a superior player and we don’t have to waste any more time on this to be honest. Like I said, whether he’s ‘elite’ or not isn’t the question.
My apologies as I was not very clear in my question. To be more specific my question relates to Irvin PLUS Mayowa being better acquisitions than Ngakoue vs either being better/worse individually.
You are falling into the trap of using raw aggregate sack numbers as a single measure for how good a player is. If you want to move your argument to a 4-year time period, fine, but it only further highlights my point. Over the past 4 seasons Ngakoue has a sack every 51 pass rush snaps. Once again Irvin is better at 49. Mayowa was just behind Ngakoue at 55. Not bad for a “rotational/backup” player. On top of that Ngakoue has regressed in production and grades for 2 consecutive years after putting up stellar numbers his 2nd year. Even if we look at pressures instead of sacks, Ngakoue didn’t even finish in the top 30 players last year despite playing full time and lagged both Irvin and Mayowa on a per snap basis.
Since day one Carroll has consistently preached 2 things, being able to run the ball and stopping the other team from doing so. Ngakoue is a terrible fit for the Seahawk D due to his ineptness as a run defender and missing 1 out of 5 tackles for the past 2 years which is embarrassingly high. Part of it is not his fault, he is only 246lbs and the Hawks have never used anyone smaller than about 255lbs at LEO (Clemmons). Ngakoue was a 3-4 OLB for most of his career at Maryland and that would seem to be a better position fit for him at the NFL level.
Carroll has called Irvin the best SAM backer in his tenure and Mayowas pass rushing grades have improved every year he has played and he is in his prime years. His playing time was cut back last season as the Raiders made committments to younger players under long term contracts (Crosby & Ferrell). Effectively, in 2 players, the Hawks filled 3 starting positions, SAM in base D, and both edge rushers in nickel D/passing downs for less money and zero draft picks vs Ngakoue. Even more, with limited preseason work, having players that are familiar with a teams system is even more important this year.
So if you would have preferred to spend $12mil and give up 2 draft picks for a player who is an above average pass rusher and a terrible run defender then I respectfully disagree with your opinion.
“To be more specific my question relates to Irvin PLUS Mayowa being better acquisitions than Ngakoue vs either being better/worse individually.”
I don’t think it’s right to talk about two players being better than one. Regardless, Mayowa has never been a starting DE in the NFL and Ngakoue has. Irvin is a SAM. So I’m not sure why you’re arguing on these terms.
“You are falling into the trap of using raw aggregate sack numbers as a single measure for how good a player is.”
No I am not. No more than you are falling into the trap of pointing out one statistic for one season to measure how good a player is. The fact is that nearly 10 sacks a season is the kind of consistent production Mayowa and Irvin can only dream of. There’s some validity to that, even if sacks are only one part of the equation. And you only produced pressure/sacks per snap for one year which, as I pointed out, is decidedly incomplete in terms of an argument.
“Over the past 4 seasons Ngakoue has a sack every 51 pass rush snaps. Once again Irvin is better at 49. Mayowa was just behind Ngakoue at 55. Not bad for a “rotational/backup” player.”
As I stated before, you now need to explain the following — how much attention did Ngakoue receive for his pressure vs a rotational defensive end or someone playing favourably on passing downs as a SAM?
And as I said earlier, if I can’t use sack production without being accused of ‘focusing on one stat’ — the same rule applies to you for pressure per snap.
“Carroll has called Irvin the best SAM backer in his tenure”
That’s why he benched him in 2013 for Malcolm Smith then let him walk in free agency after not picking up his fifth year option. And what exactly is the competition? Malcolm Smith? O’Brien Schofield? Barkevious Mingo? Mychal Kendricks? It’s hardly a murders row of SAM linebackers is it?
“Mayowas pass rushing grades have improved every year he has played and he is in his prime years”
Does that include 2017 when he had one sack for the Cowboys? Or his four-sack season the following year for the Cardinals? Are you saying they were productive, prime years? Or are you saying the fact he had a better grade in 2019 compared to these two crap seasons is a positive? Because an improvement from his pass rush grade of 63.1 in 2017 is nothing to boast about.
And for what it’s worth, he was ranked 40th for pass rush grade in 2019. Mychal Kendricks had a better pass rush grade last year. Yannick Ngakoue was ranked 18th.
“His playing time was cut back last season as the Raiders made committments to younger players”
That’s a convenient manipulation of the situation to suite your argument. You could just as easily say that after a fast start he fizzled out, wasn’t very good and the Raiders showed no interest in bringing him back for a meagre $3m.
“So if you would have preferred to spend $12mil and give up 2 draft picks for a player who is an above average pass rusher and a terrible run defender then I respectfully disagree with your opinion.”
I’ve literally never made this argument. The only argument I’ve made to you is to challenge your original question to me on whether Ngakoue was better than Irvin and Mayowa, which to me (and the rest of the league it seems) he clearly is.
“I don’t think it’s right to talk about two players being better than one. Regardless, Mayowa has never been a starting DE in the NFL and Ngakoue has. Irvin is a SAM. So I’m not sure why you’re arguing on these terms.”
WHY? FOOTBALL IS A BUSINESS, IF MULTIPLE PLAYERS CAN BE ACQUIRED FOR THE SAME OR LESS MONEY THAN ONE PLAYER THAN IT IS ABSOLUTELY RELEVANT.
“No I am not. No more than you are falling into the trap of pointing out one statistic for one season to measure how good a player is. The fact is that nearly 10 sacks a season is the kind of consistent production Mayowa and Irvin can only dream of. There’s some validity to that, even if sacks are only one part of the equation. And you only produced pressure/sacks per snap for one year which, as I pointed out, is decidedly incomplete in terms of an argument.”
YOU’RE COMPAING A FULL TIME EDGE RUSHER TO A 3-4 OLB IN IRVIN WHICH IS A POSITION THAT WILL NEVER HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF PASS RUSHING OPPORTUNITIES. AS FOR MAYOWA, REASONS MAY VARY AS TO WHY HE HAS NOT PLAYED AS MUCH, MAYBE HE WASN’T A GOOD SCHEME FIT, BUT HE HAS BEEN INCREASINGLY PRODUCTIVE EVERY YEAR.
“As I stated before, you now need to explain the following — how much attention did Ngakoue receive for his pressure vs a rotational defensive end or someone playing favourably on passing downs as a SAM?”
IN TERMS OF ATTENTION HE WAS LISTED RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK FOR THE AMOUNT OF DOUBLE TEAMS HE FACED. I DONT HAVE DATA ON IRVIN. REGARDLESS, THE FACT REMAINS THAT WHETHER LOOKING AT 1 YEAR OR THE PAST 4 YEARS, IRVIN IS MORE EFFECIENT AT GETTING SACKS THAN NGAKOUE AND MAYOWA IS ALMOST AS GOOD.
“That’s why he benched him in 2013 for Malcolm Smith then let him walk in free agency after not picking up his fifth year option. And what exactly is the competition? Malcolm Smith? O’Brien Schofield? Barkevious Mingo? Mychal Kendricks? It’s hardly a murders row of SAM linebackers is it?”
SAM LB IS NOT A KEY POSITION IN CARROLLS D WHICH IS WHY THEY HAVE NEVER SPENT MONEY ON THE POSTION, E.G.- LETTING THE SUPER BOWL MVP (SMITH) WALK AS WELL. ADDITIONALLY THEY HAD AVRIL AND CLARK AS CHEAPER OPTIONS IN 2016 SO THERE WAS NO REASON TO RESIGN IRVIN.
“Does that include 2017 when he had one sack for the Cowboys? Or his four-sack season the following year for the Cardinals? Are you saying they were productive, prime years? Or are you saying the fact he had a better grade compared to these two crap seasons is a positive?”
YOU ARE ARGUING A POINT, MAYOWA BEING BETTER THAN NGAKOUE THAT I NEVER MADE
“That’s a convenient manipulation of the situation to suite your argument. You could just as easily say he wasn’t very good and the Raiders showed no interest in bringing him back for a meagre $3m.”
IT’S ALSO THE TRUTH. WHEN A TEAM IS NO LONGER IN THE PLAYOFF HUNT AND HAVE YOUNG TALENT UNDER CONTRACT FOR 4 YEARS THAT NEEDS TO BE DEVELOPED THATS WHAT HAPPENS
“I’ve literally never made this argument. The only argument I’ve made to you is to challenge your original question to me on whether Ngakoue was better than Irvin and Mayowa, which to me (and the rest of the league it seems) he clearly is.”
THIS IS WHY I STARTED OFF MY PREVIOUS REPLY BY RESTATING MY QUESTION, YET YOU ARE INSISTING ON MAKING AN ARGUMENT OVER A POINT I NEVER MADE. FOR THE SAME MONEY WOULD I RATHER HAVE NGAKOUE OVER MAYOWA? DEFINITELY. OVER IRVIN? PROBABLY. FOR $12MIL AND 2 DRAFT PICKS? ABSOLUTELY NOT, ESPECIALLY WHEN MULTIPLE PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS CAN BE ACQUIRED FOR MUCH LESS.
“WHY? FOOTBALL IS A BUSINESS, IF MULTIPLE PLAYERS CAN BE ACQUIRED FOR THE SAME OR LESS MONEY THAN ONE PLAYER THAN IT IS ABSOLUTELY RELEVANT.”
No it’s not. You could argue ten players on $2m each are better than Aaron Donald but who’s blowing up games?
“YOU’RE COMPAING A FULL TIME EDGE RUSHER TO A 3-4 OLB IN IRVIN WHICH IS A POSITION THAT WILL NEVER HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF PASS RUSHING OPPORTUNITIES. AS FOR MAYOWA, REASONS MAY VARY AS TO WHY HE HAS NOT PLAYED AS MUCH, MAYBE HE WASN’T A GOOD SCHEME FIT, BUT HE HAS BEEN INCREASINGLY PRODUCTIVE EVERY YEAR.”
Hang on a minute — I’m only discussing this topic because YOU compared Ngakoue to Irvin.
Stop making excuses for Mayowa. You’re trying everything except him not being good enough. The fact is Oakland gradually reduced his playing time, then let him walk.
You’re also running the risk of me ending this conversation. Because I’ve pointed out to you already that just saying ‘his production has increased’ is fake news when he had ONE sack in 2017 and FOUR in 2018. He’d be out of the league if he wasn’t improving on that.
“IN TERMS OF ATTENTION HE WAS LISTED RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK FOR THE AMOUNT OF DOUBLE TEAMS HE FACED. I DONT HAVE DATA ON IRVIN. REGARDLESS, THE FACT REMAINS THAT WHETHER LOOKING AT 1 YEAR OR THE PAST 4 YEARS, IRVIN IS MORE EFFECIENT AT GETTING SACKS THAN NGAKOUE AND MAYOWA IS ALMOST AS GOOD.”
Please provide this data. I want numbers. Because to me I cannot imagine any point where Benson Mayowa was double teamed last season.
This is also strike two on me ending this conversation. Stop avoiding the point I’ve already made twice and will now make a third time. Quoting efficiency stats is all well and good but it lacks context. Irvin is a situational SAM/rusher who isn’t playing as an every down DE. He comes in for passing downs. You cannot avoid that this is a scenario that creates better chances to be efficient.
I’ve also looked at the number of snaps between Mayowa and Ngakoue. Mayowa had 302 snaps in 2019 compared to Ngakoue’s 791. That’s more than twice as much. Surely you aren’t going to argue that this doesn’t matter? If you’re playing considerably more snaps week to week that will impact your efficiency.
“SAM LB IS NOT A KEY POSITION IN CARROLLS D WHICH IS WHY THEY HAVE NEVER SPENT MONEY ON THE POSTION, E.G.- LETTING THE SUPER BOWL MVP (SMITH) WALK AS WELL. ADDITIONALLY THEY HAD AVRIL AND CLARK AS CHEAPER OPTIONS IN 2016 SO THERE WAS NO REASON TO RESIGN IRVIN.”
None of this is a counter to what I said. You referenced Carroll saying Irvin was the best SAM they’ve ever had as a positive and I pointed out, quite rightly, that Irvin was benched in 2013 and there hasn’t been a good SAM on the team since. It was pointless praise that means nothing in this argument.
“YOU ARE ARGUING A POINT, MAYOWA BEING BETTER THAN NGAKOUE THAT I NEVER MADE”
No I wasn’t. I was directly responding to the comment YOU made about Mayowa being productive in his prime years. Do yourself a favour and just accept the point I made was right. One sack in 2017 and four in 2018 is shite and we both know it.
“IT’S ALSO THE TRUTH. WHEN A TEAM IS NO LONGER IN THE PLAYOFF HUNT AND HAVE YOUNG TALENT UNDER CONTRACT FOR 4 YEARS THAT NEEDS TO BE DEVELOPED THATS WHAT HAPPENS”
More excuses. You’re running out of steam.
“THIS IS WHY I STARTED OFF MY PREVIOUS REPLY BY RESTATING MY QUESTION, YET YOU ARE INSISTING ON MAKING AN ARGUMENT OVER A POINT I NEVER MADE.”
I’ve done no such thing. From minute one I’ve responded and answered all your points our questions.
“FOR THE SAME MONEY WOULD I RATHER HAVE NGAKOUE OVER MAYOWA? DEFINITELY. OVER IRVIN? PROBABLY. FOR $12MIL AND 2 DRAFT PICKS? ABSOLUTELY NOT, ESPECIALLY WHEN MULTIPLE PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS CAN BE ACQUIRED FOR MUCH LESS.”
Fine, that’s your choice.
But the Minnesota Vikings are not a stupid franchise and as I’ve pointed out, Ngakoue has averaged about 10 sacks a season for four years and has graded among the best pass rushers in the NFL according to PFF. Benson Mayowa in his best season was phased out by the Raiders in 2019 and ended the year as the 40th best pass rusher in the league per PFF. He’s been a career backup throughout and he’s bounced around the league as a replacement-level talent.
I know Seahawks fans are dead keen to talk themselves into believing Mayowa is sufficient but the reality is he isn’t. And you’re going to find that out over the course of 16 games in the coming months if the Seahawks don’t do something pronto about their pass rush. Yannick Ngakoue is far from perfect but he’s better. He just is. And that’s why he cost picks and $12m.
Small sample size reasoning drives me crazy.
I think it’s safe to say having consistent starting time on a talented line says more about his skills than if he was credited for a higher ratio of sacks-per-snap. Sacks are great, but they are a very fickle measure of lineman.
Plus, if Cliff Avril says the guy the most reminds him of his game was Yannick, you gotta take that into the equation.
For me the most important and thought provoking thing around the Seahawks happening in the last 24 hours was neither the the signing of PRich nor the Ngakoue trade.
Rob, do you have any thoughts on Pete’s speech?
Heaps said at the end of the video that Rob posted that he was most concerned about the run defense of our DL (he thought we could be OK in terms of pass rush). Clowney is the perfect guy at this point to add to the mix to improve the run and pass defense at DE. If not maybe we get lucky with a cap casualty or a TE or LB needy team and make a trade to add to the overall talent of the DL. And I hope we to add our annual cheap/productive veteran DT, which I am really surprised we haven’t signed yet.
I think Seattle is waiting on Clowney before adding a DT. My hope is Clowney + Snacks but not sure they can fit both under the cap.
How sweet would that be? Not sure we have the Room for it but I would sure love for that to happen
I didn’t think we had the draft capital or the cap room to make YN trade work. So I wasn’t that high on the possibility. But him taking a pay cut to make this work stings a little. I love Jamal Adams and I’m sure he will have a huge impact on our D (his attitude more than his physical talent) but if the choice was to pick between addressing the Safety position and DL, the former was not the priority. I realize I’m stating the obvious, but sitting back watching every SB contender address their key needs and we have yet to do the same is exhausting. I guess Clowney signing elsewhere is the last piece of domino this off season and all impact players coming off the table. I hope I’m wrong and we sign him. Otherwise, this has been an off season in many ways parallel to our recent drafts. Full of surprises and head scratching moves.
I honestly thought Ngakoue was Seattle’s Plan B and that the trade would be our 2021 2nd rounder and a player or 2, much like the Clowney trade last year. The salary was going to be the issue. Did not know a player could take less on a tag. Wow!
Hopefully this forces the Seahawks hand and they close the deal on Plan A (Clowney) this week.
I think there were very few people that thought he was a Plan B
Even if we had the cap space and draft capital to make this trade I wouldnt have been for it. He’d be a pure Leo in our scheme and we already drafted 2 of those in addition to Mayowa and Bruce (in nickel). That said making this move, along with signing a 5 like Griffen at the beginning of FA would have at least been a functional attempt at fixing the pass rush.
I suspect they were never that interested in him though, he doesn’t exactly match anything theyve previously targeted at the position. #ClowneyorBust.
How the hell did the Vikings pull that off? The Campbell, Hopkins, and Ngakoue trade have all been a bargain and we pay top trade value this offseason. I’m not irritated to have the best safety in the league, but damn I’m shocked the Hawks weren’t involved in that one sooner. They must really like their odds of getting Clowney back.
A 2nd and a possible 3rd is still a lot for a rental. Still need to sign him or they will be right where we are with Clowney
It’s a R4 if YN is first ballot Pro Bowl next season, so that’s somewhat likely.
It’s only a R3 if the above is met AND the Vikings win the Super Bowl, so…
We paid a premium for cap flexibility essentially. Got two years control and no long term contract. Do we use that flexibility for anything? We’ll see.
The word “control” in that statement may be misleading. After this year, if we don’t give him the contract he wants he may hold out and we may actually be in and out of control situation and have actually purchased another expensive one year rental.
I will go into this season just wanting to see a team that will fight every game, give it their all and enjoy the moments we can get.
Seahawks D-Line/Pass Rush stays unimpressive, while the rest of NFC just continues to improve.
The lack of a splash DL move has been disappointing, but people seem to forget how vastly superior our secondary is right now. Not to mention the potential for our LB group to be much better.
Yes, so much is won/lost in the trenches, but I’m not sure what team in the NFC has a better back 7/8 than us.
Oh, Bob…
championship
Kiddie band aid on a gaping wound, at best! There’s a reason guys like Moore don’t have a job already, can’t believe he’s the answer.
If you’re going to mention the Atlanta game, at least acknowledge how bad our starting secondary was in that game. It wasn’t just the pass rush.
Everyone was crap.
Doesn’t make any difference.
The DL sucked.
Who cares what our secondary looks like? Matt Ryan is going to have all day to light our asses up.
By the way, how can your podcast not be named Seahawks Draft Cast. It just fits
The word is that this injury might be career-ending for Jackson. Seemingly a good guy, this is very sad if true.
It’s about next year’s cap…not this year’s. Seattle can’t afford Adams, Dunbar, Diggs, and Griffin…and then Ngakoue. All with the salary cap DECREASING next year. You don’t trade away all your picks for one year and then not get value out of it. They’ve run the numbers, trading for Ngakoue would have been for one year and he wouldn’t agree to a cut if Seattle can’t promise a long term contract, like the Vikings did.
It’s not about that. They’ve spent $60m this year. As of today it’s about the fact they’ve made their bed on the trade front by dealing for Jamal Adams. With Ngakoue willing to take a pay cut to get out of Jacksonville, financially they were fine. And while they will pay Adams, presumably, next year — there’s no guarantee on Dunbar or Griffin.
This is a team that gave BJ Finney – currently 3rd on the depth chart to an UDFA and a draft bust – $8m while dickering with Clowney over his price.
They have $30m committed to their starting LBs this year.
They went out and spent $10.5m on 2 TEs.
There was room to get a real pass rusher.
$30m on the starting LBs. And don’t forget the draft capital backing them up in a year when we think they are pushing all their chips into the middle.
1st domino finally falls….. Yannick Ngakoue
2nd domino to fall…… Jadeveon Clowney
Its coming, Judgement day.
Doubt it
The Seahawks are starting to get desperate. DL sucks and it ain’t getting better, only worse. Something will have to give.
We got that much better secondary so the d line will be better…🤣
What really sucks is that our back seven really is a top 5 unit, but the front four are sitting at 32. We coulda been contenders this year…but alas…
And that’s the problem.
They’re going to waste all of the investment on the back seven.
The linebackers will be unprotected, the secondary exposed.
BJack to IR. What ever shall we do…?
Well, the signing of Pita Taumoepenu kinda sums it up, hence my post above. I’ve given up on them doing something meaningful on the DL.
The morbid fan in me just wants Clowney to sign with anybody, so I can finally put my last shred of hope for 2020 out of its misery. So many resources, so much possibility and here we are.
And I knew this was going to happen! What option did Jacksonville have? But we got fleeced by the team currently employing Adam Gase. What an offseason.
We didn’t get fleeced by the Jets. Adams is going to be an amazing player for us for at least the next 2 years. The problem is we needed more than just that. We need to add to the DL. Hasn’t happened.
The Jets didn’t have rights to Jamal Adams, the player, whatever he is actually worth to a team.
What they had was a headache who was only going to make their lives miserable until he was able to leave. They decidedly are not in a championship window, so what did his premium talent, if he chose to continue to engage on the field, really mean to them?
The only leverage the Jets had was how much other teams were willing to spend to take a chance on a guy that was currently demonstrating he was willing to undermine his organization if some internal threshold got crossed.
Given that the player had become basically a net negative value to the team and the rest of the league knew it, I’d say they got a bounty.
What Seattle got in return was either a one year rental and a second year drama for an exorbitant price for that package, or the right to pay with both high draft capital and then a presumably record setting safety contract in 2021. (Perhaps Adams will sign a team friendly deal, but even that would still be around $15m APY with cap uncertainty looming, but I’d suggest that it is overly optimistic, perhaps even naive, thinking to believe he will ball out for Seattle in 2020 and then not look to cash in next offseason with a lucrative extension.)
His extension will put new contracts for other players, such Dunbar and Griffin, two players who will also presumably be looking to cash in, in jeopardy. The starting SAM is on a one year contract, the starting WILL is out of contract after 2020, and the entire starting LBs were on the team in 2012. There is some potential coming down the pipeline at that position but it is all unproven.
So paying Adams with both draft capital and salary will potentially leave the Seattle back 7 with some departures and/or some decline due to age, with insufficient resources to maintain the 2020 status quo in the back seven and address the DL, the lack of depth in the WR room, the question marks at OL (with its best player a year older), and Carson in a FA year.
A premium safety’s value is magnified when he is surrounded by quality talent, but marginalized when that talent is suspect. Which can be said for any position, but is perhaps particularly true of safeties and especially true of safeties playing in a conservative system. They simply have fewer opportunities to make plays than an Aaron Donald or a Bobby Wagner.
The Seahawks managed to do what I thought was impossible, which is to somehow not see a significant decline in projected performance from 2019 (I still think the offense will regress because it was unsustainably efficient last year, but the overall talent level is comparable to 2019) and maybe even give themselves a chance to be better on defense, but they did that by using significant future draft capital to secure the services of two key players on bargain rate contracts that won’t continue to be bargains in 2021 (Dunbar and Adams).
The only way I read the tea leaves is they’ve struck a kind of Faustian bargain and the payment will be coming due sooner than later.
Will the Jags make a run at Clowney now or are they all in on tanking for Trevor?
No they have drafted pass rushers and are collecting picks for, seemingly, that tilt at the QB’s next year.
I don’t think they are that smart. I’ve yet to be impressed by the Jags and the moves they’ve made. What is really sad is that my brother lives in JAX and is a season ticket holder. Needless to say he doesn’t go to all their games anymore.
Mock Game 3 press conf 8-30 w PC
Opening
“Great work, got a bunch of plays in. Put players in situations to think game-like. Offense situation had to win the game with 1:40 left. A lot of realistic situations we’ll learn from. Next week is a mock week for in-season week. Get WRs back Tuesday, just about there today, but couldn’t quite make it. Great film”
[john boyle] Getting extra reps 1on1, what have you learned? “Really competitive. Pride on the field. Really good. So valuable. Feels game-speed, what you’re trying to capture. Normal as possible.”
[boyle] Defense on last play? “Thought they had a sack. RW has eluded guys before, not in the grasp, so they’re mad about it.”
[brady hen] Marquise Blair today? “3 or 4 plays that stood out. Continues to be a spotlighted player out there. All over the field. Haven’t seen the film yet. Not sure if he knocked the ball out of DK 50 yards down. Well in coverage. Probably the brightest surprise of camp. Great quick feet, great feel for routes, covered as tight as anybody on our team.”
[brady] Branden Jackson IR? “Docs don’t recommend playing this season. Testing showing he had a trait to protect, convinced best thing to do is not play this year. Not injured but susceptible. Erring on the side of long term health. Great team guy, versatility. Miss him. Asked him to stay around with us.”
[brady] Neck or COVID or? “won’t pretend I’m a doctor. Has to do with makeup and spinal structure (talks off camera with someone). Can’t give you more.”
[bob condotta] WRs coming back? Dorsett? P Rich? “If everything goes right, Dorsett back after 1 day break, Cody and Ursua back too. Phil, sore foot have to manage him well. Paul Rich, timing right for us to get him in. Been talking to him. Got a chance to get him back. Comp at WR spot heightened. Put him in mix and see how goes.”
[bob] Game 2 weeks, team in general? “If we get a few guys back in action, will feel better about it. WR group concern, get guys back. RB too. Carols, Travis out today. About the numbers. Who’s going to be available to us? High level practices against one another. Experienced leadership, good position to finish off camp. Didn’t play veterans as much.”
[ken] Branden Jackson – Kam & Cliff? “Similar type of issues, you know how those turned out.”
[ken] Hear from coaches after your statement? Dialogue? “Texting, have heard from a number. Want to just rally the troops. Opps to connect to players.”
[Gregg bell] Quinton Dunbar in defense? If game started? “Important to see film, Trey slightly sprained ankle. Dunbar played with 1s. Terrific awareness, spacial awareness, playmaking ability, good challenge attitude. Not a lot of work w him at this point. Made nothing but positive steps toward playtime. Like his savvy and awareness.”
[gregg] Late arrival set him back? “Some. Worked w a secondary coach who has worked with us, came in w technique and terminology in hand. Wasn’t aware of that. Made transition easy. Accelerated sense of his comfort.”
[Joe fann] Expect Parkinson ready by week one? “Possible. Week coming up important. If we can get him back this week, big step.”
[joe] Darrell Taylor “Few weeks away, won’t be ready for opener. Steeped in rehab.”
[joe] Dorsett, knew about when signed? “No, just got sore here, dealt with it before. Docs understand how to treat him. No broken bones. See where soreness is. Have to manage it. Hard working kid. Want to see him at full speed. Smart FB player. Gets it. In a groove with RW.”
[ben arthur] Center spot shaking out at this point? Comfortable Pocic? “Lead spot, command of calls and familiarity. VS Poona and Mone battling, holding him up well. Fuller nice job too. Finney coming along. Finney furthest behind in terms of what’s going on. Won’t call it until end of next week. Keep battling.”
[jackie] RBs Carson getting touches? “Necessity, fresh legs, out of camp with family. Flying around, light on his feet.”
[jackie] DJ Dallas? “Stud. Tons of snaps. Picked htings up well, pass protection drill can’t wait to see film. Right from first few days, RW and coaches felt confidence, runs routes well, catches ball beautifully. Also in midst of comp on Special Teams. Great pick for us so far.”
[jackie] Carson? “Looks great. No hesitation about him. Fine and ready to go.”
[Art Thiel] Saturday, in house response? “Did hear from some guys. Been through a lot together. Discussions. Things I said didn’t surprise them. Happy to hear somebody say things I said. Come to as an org.”
[Art] Why so difficult in NFL culture to say what you said? “Hard in culture, not just NFL culture. Our players candidly talked about fear of speaking out on their own behalf, because of what they’ve seen. Saw what happened w Kaepernick.”
[michael shawn d] NBA players speaking out getting team owners involved, have convo’s with Jodi? “A while back. Not last couple days. I have her support. She stands with what we’re doing. Helps us in regular decision making by obvious support she gives us. Not concerned that I didn’t mention this to her. Confidence to run this with my heart.”
[curtis crab] Jordyn Brooks progress? “Um….steady progress……no shortcomings in his game, physical, fast, really good pass defender. Just a matter of time he’ll be on the field. Too good to hold out. Excited the level of confidence we have in him. Doing great.”
[curtis] Mayowa? Ogbuehi? “Benson banged up couple days. Really matured. Experienced kid. Cedric got banged up today, shoulder a bit. LT and RT. Can play both sides. Light feet. Terrific length, athleticism. Good swing guy. Battling with Shell. Got a lot of reps on RT. “
They asked about virtually every position except the pass rush.
Just ask Pete how he feels about it. Surely it’s worth a question? Let’s see what he says.
Malpractice
Zoinks scoob
How can no one ask this simple, obvious question???
It’s almost like they’ve been prepped by the team not to ask about it.
Very odd.
It’s incredible.
Especially when they asked about the state of the RB, WR and C positions, asked about Marquise Blair (again), asked about Jordyn Brooks (again), asked about Quinton Dunbar (again).
Just ask how Pete feels about the pass rush.
Ask him if they need to add to the position.
Even if he just blows it off… just ask.
I texted Josina Anderson and she just got off the phone with Pete. He said the following:
“Really excited about the guys we have going in. We’re hoping LJ and Rasheem can take some big steps forward this year. We’ve added a lot of speed with Bruce and Benson, so we can’t wait to turn those guys loose. They know the system, so that’s gonna be big for us. Taylor, he’s dealing with some injury stuff. It’s not major, but it might keep him out a bit. Man, you guys are gonna love him though. He’s a real competitor, just can’t wait to see him get after it. You know, Mone played some for us last year and we thought he looked really good. He’s gonna get a chance to show what he can do this year. Same with Demarcus. He had that injury thing, but he’s healthy now and looking to compete. We’re all really excited about what he brings. Alton has had maybe the best camp of anybody. He’s chompin at the bit and rarin’ to go. Love the energy, love our guys.”
Josina asked about Clowney, right before she got off the phone with him, and he said “You know, that’s something where we know what Jadeveon brings and what a competitor he is. We’ve been talking to him and John, you know, John is always working on stuff. Things you guys don’t even know about, he’s working on things like that. We’re always looking to get better. We love Jadeveon and he’s a great player, so we’ll see what happens there. We love the guys we have though, so we just want to be the best football team we can be.”
Not bad. You got some chops kid.
Well done! You did what nobody else has done. And I’m encouraged hearing that JS is working on things none of us have heard of. I’m optimistic about Clowney and we know now it isn’t Clowney or bust.
//whoosh
Truly, all credit goes to Josina.
I’m happy to share what I know Pete would say. Unfortunately Josina just got off the phone with John… trying to dig into what those other “irons in the fire” might be and he only gave her this:
“You know I can’t tell you that! lol… We’re working non-stop though. Whatever we do, we don’t want it to be like that Geico commercial. You know the one where the surgeon comes out of the OR and he’s like ‘It went okay. I just got my license reinstated yesterday’… lol, we want whatever we do to be the best thing for the team going forward.”
Next time JA gets off the phone with them, I’ll update this post.
Big ups!
This is what happens when you wise guy it and try to troll the fanbase with that Damonte Moore tweet.
he’s getting razzed pretty hard for this one…”years”….LOL
The poor mother; that’s gotta be a world record for longest amount of time in labor.
🙂 🙂 🙂
This is remarkable:
https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1300217296183537664
Yannick Ngakoue has essentially given up $6m to facilitate the trade to Minnesota.
He’ll play for $12m this year.
And his 2021 tag number is lowered.
Holy hell.
No “no-tag” guarantee.
I hope the Seahawks learned their lesson with their ‘no tag’ guarantee with Clowney.
Fat lot of good that did.
Waiting until Aug 30 2 years in a row to bolster the pass rush?
Here’s the offseason frustration in a nutshell.
Seahawks traded a 2 and a 3 for a banged up unproven pass rusher on a rookie contract (Darrell Taylor) who won’t even play for the Hawks until a few weeks into the season.
Minnesota traded a 2 and a 5 (that could possibly end up a 3) on a seriously proven pass rusher who took a massive paycut and who can be under team control for 2 years at $26m.
And yet…. plenty of people say we’re just being negative for pointing stuff like this out.
It’s staggering.
<blockquote<
Have The Seahawks Signed Clowney?
@signclowney
No.
5:48 PM · Aug 30, 2020M
It’s not just pointing these things out. It’s hammering them down day after day. Staggering.
And so I bloody well should be.
We talk about the things that matter on here. People might not like it but that’s not my problem.
Let’s see how you feel about it after watching a month of Mayowa and Green leading the pass rush.
EXACTLY Rob!!! Preach brother!
“…..a few weeks into the season” is going to turn into at least half the season imo. I feel you’re being optimistic. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong of course.
Small correction. If YN gets tagged next season it’s likely to be 2 years, $30ish million since the franchise tag is the GREATER OF the top 5 players at the position or 120% of the player’s previous year’s salary. Thus YN playing for less than the tag amount this year doesn’t actually lower what his tag would be next season (if tagged).
Also, Taylor will earn roughly $3M the next 2 years … and will still be under team control for 2 years after that.
So while I understand your frustration (and your point), I would argue that YN probably isn’t worth $27M more over the next 2 years given what Seattle could (theoretically) do with those funds. Especially if Taylor ends up being as good as advertised.
Also, Taylor will earn a TOTAL of $6,764,507 the next 4 years which is just over HALF of what YN is going to make this season.
Like what? Lock up a premier pass rusher???
Ha! We definitely won’t be drafting one.
Says who? They drafted Brooks immediately after trading up for Barton. They traded for Adams immediately after drafting Blair.
They could sign proven sack machines like Mayowa and Irvin!!!
Any interest in discussing what a pair of 1st round picks and a 3rd round pick will make in the next half-decade vs. a SS who is going to get PAID next year? Or does value only count when you’re supporting the team?
What can $27 million get you?
Irvin. Mayowa. Finney. … Seahawks already proved this off-season they can spend $60 million and not get too much to show for it.
If we’re going to be snarky, let’s put some numbers to the names.
Irvin = 1 year, $5.5M ($5M guaranteed)
Mayowa = 1 year, $3.05M ($2.55M guaranteed)
Finney = 2 years, $8M ($4.5M guaranteed; $3.5M this season, $1M next)
My math says that’s only $12.05M of the $60M the team spent. Looks like you need to throw out some more names.
Irvin’s cap hit is $6m this year.
Taylor won’t be worth anything if he can’t get on the field.
Tannic takes paycut to make trade happen this close to start of the season. Hoping Clowney will take the clue and signs with Hawks.
Not sure how and why PC/JS ignore DL / Pass rush. Rob pointed out even journalists are not asking that question. Not sure if they over confident or plain stupid. One more week 🙌
Now Jackson goes down with a season-ender.
It’s time to fire Pete and John.
Never thought I’d say that. But here we are.
Jackson is and always has been… not good. I feel bad for him, but he’s not a good NFL pass rusher and anyone thinking he could be a good pass rusher in 2020 should really have their head examined.
It’s not a matter of if Jackson is any good. It’s a matter of they don’t even have a replacement for a not very good player they were counting on to be a rotational player. It’s complete incompetence. I’m over it.
They hit on an all-world QB in the 3rd round and because of that had an amazing run. Since that QB got paid, the cracks have shown themselves, and we are seeing what Schneider and Carroll really are– which is a not very good front office with an All-World QB they are mostly wasting.
Fire them before we end up wondering how we could have wasted a HOF QB’s career with only one championship to show for it.
TBF to them, they didnt just hit gold on a 3rd round QB, they also constructed one if the greatest defences of all time.
I believe that was entirely thanks to Scott Mclaughlin. Look at their drafting since he left. Disaster after disaster. Frank Clark, Tyler Lockett, and DK are the only good picks in something like 7 drafts. And all three of those were gifted to us by falling because of absurd reasons.
A few good trades too. But then there has been disaster after disaster. Harvin, Graham.
We lost a HOF CB and a HOF safety and got NOTHING in return. Nothing. Zilch. Not even a conditional 7th.
How does that even happen?
Fire them.
Jim, it’s OK to be angry about the current state of the roster.
But you do yourself no favours trying to re-write history, giving PCJS zero credit for drafting and developing an all-time legendary NFL roster that brought Seattle its first Super Bowl.
I’m not giving them no credit. They get lots of credit. But credit is not a lifelong pass for incompetence. And I think most people can see the direction of the team has been down for some time. If Houston doesn’t givft us Clowney or Greg the Leg makes a FG last year that he hits 98% of the time, we don’t make the playoffs. And the conversation here is radically different.
Enough is enough. I don’t want to waste the rest of Wilson’s career giving Pete Carroll a gold watch because he won a championship. He can stay on as coach only if he gives up the front office. That’s where I’m at.
And it’s where everyone else will be at this time next year. Or the next. Only we’ll have wasted one or two more seasons of Wilson’s career by then.
Oh, I’ll give you Chris Carson too. Maybe. Injury prone. Fumbling issues. But for a 7th rounder, you can’t complain. Might be able to sell me on Reed too. Otherwise, there’s been a whole lotta Germaine Ifedis and Terry Pooles and C.J. Prosises and so on. And the rest held together with expensive trades and endless trade-downs that costs us high end talent to fill multiple roster holes.
The fact is that before Wilson came along, they were a 7-9 team. He took them to the top as long as they could pad the roster around a cheap QB. But since then, it’s been Wilson carrying them to 9-11 wins, most of them by the skin of their teeth. Last year they were something like 10-1 in one-score games. And that one became a one-score game on a no-time-remaining prevent TD. They lost big against every team they played that was in contention except division rivals. If that even slides a little this year, and goes to, say, 7-4 in one-score games, you’re looking at a 8-8 record.
And you’ve traded away your next two drafts for a safety.
Check that. 10-2. They lost the SF home game by one score too. It was really 10-1, though, because the NO game was one-score in the final score only. That game was never close.
“The fact is that before Wilson came along, they were a 7-9 team.”
Yes, until they made of the all-time great draft picks by finding a superb franchise QB in round three, they were — like most teams without a proper starting QB — 7-9.
This is silly Jim.
Yeah, it’s silly if, unlike me, you don’t remember that they were in one of the worst divisions in NFL history at the time. Not all 7-9 are equal. And that was a couple of the weakest 7-9 records ever. Which made the Beast Mode game all the more unlikely and why even at home they were 10-point underdogs.
You’re being ridiculous Jim. Especially in your (now deleted post) claiming your criticism is valid because I’ve been ‘bitching and moaning’ about the pass rush. Fair criticism over the Seahawks’ inability to address their self-confessed biggest need is not the same as attempting to dilute the greatest act of roster building in franchise history.
PCJS inherited what amounted to an expansion franchise in 2010. Within four seasons they’d won a Super Bowl, built one of the greatest defense’s in history and found one of the best QB’s in NFL history with a mid third round pick.
I’m not going to allow you to re-write history, sorry.
Jackson was depth, nothing more. This is the same player that was released on the initial cut to 80 then brought back. IF he had made the final 53, he’d have played maybe 10%-20% of the defensive snaps this year. Seattle can replace him with almost anyone. And the fact that they (maybe) don’t currently have his replacement on the team is because he was probably #70 on the 80-man list.
Incompetence is teams like Cleveland and Cincinnati who play in weak divisions, almost never make the playoffs, and then lose in the wildcard game if they do. I will GLADLY take Seattle’s staff over theirs.
Frustration is natural and it’s nice to have a place to vent said frustration. But let’s keep things in perspective. Seattle has a HOF quarterback. They built one of the best defenses in history when said quarterback was on his rookie contract. They’ve struggled to keep the team at that level since signing said quarterback to a market-rate deal. But they have STILL managed to field a team that averages double-digit wins, competes for division titles, and makes the playoffs almost every single year. To me, that is the exact opposite of incompetence.
That’s what did it for you? Branden Jackson getting hurt in a scrimmage = Pete and John need to be fired?
I’m as confused about this version of connect-the-dots as I am about our DL.
I explained it above. I shouldn’t need to explain it. And it wasn’t one straw that broke the camel’s back. It’s been anvil after anvil, the entire 2020 offseason the heaviest anvil yet. As Rob has exasperatedly pointed out for months.
Rob has pointed out that the FO has done an abysmal job of addressing the Dline after stating it was their offseason priority. To say that they have been a failure is asinine! To be a fan of a franchise that has made the playoffs and been competitive for the last 10 years has been fabulous. Maybe you should talk to Browns or Jag fans; those are poorly run franchises.
In retrospect, the only thing I can blame on JS/PC is trying to keep the band together for too long after 2014; getting rid of some of attitudes in 2015/2016 could have netted us big returns. Having said that, the backlash of trading away HOF caliber players at that time would have been crazy.
Blame JS/PC for pissing away 60m without addressing our biggest need; sure. To say that they need to be fired…whole new level of craziness there!
I would add the word “yet” … as in, “Seattle hasn’t addressed the D-line YET.” While it’s entirely possible that they won’t, there’s still time and if Seattle DOES resign Clowney or brings in someone else that 12s think is “as good or better” then Seattle goes from having a “frustrating” offseason to a “stellar” one.
🤔 who…?
Don’t get my hopes up…
Get my hopes up…?
I’ll be satisfied if he’s a league average Nickel this season. I don’t think we can expect much more than that.
I’m worried about Blair.
He’s never played there. Teams will try to exploit him. He will be tested BIG TIME.
It’s one thing playing well in practise. It’s quite enough when you have to defend the best slot WR’s and TE’s in the league. Not to mention all the crossers and misdirection from SF and LA.
With different players (Kittle/woods/etc) it will be big learning curve during season. Since he started well in practice that will keep his confidence up. Good start.
Baptism by fire. Being a professional musician I have to say that when I had to start singing (due to being in a 3 piece outfit where the bassist didn’t sing) and being told “you WILL sing” and play drums at the same time was terrifying.
However, I benefited from that baptism by fire. It made me a better player and boosted my confidence. This can transcend to Blair as well. Yeah he will make mistakes, but ultimately his athleticism and determination will eventually prevail.
I share your concern but think that the team’s “plan” is to fill the nickel role situationally (is that a word? spell-check doesn’t think so).
* Blair is the “big” nickel
* Amadi is the “normal” nickel
* Adams or Diggs can play nickel at times
* Dunbar and Flowers can also play nickel
Depending on who Seattle is playing and which player the nickel will be covering and what the game situation is (3rd and long vs. 3rd and short, up 2 scores vs. down 1, etc.), Seattle has a shit ton of flexibility.
If the “plan” is to play Blair at nickel 80% of the time (or more) then … I’m nervous. If the plan is to mix and match depending on the situation then …. Go Hawks!
I would personally be very surprised if they have that many players moving to nickel.
To me it seems much more likely they’re going to chuck Blair out there and see how it goes.
I was thinking on the same line. If Blair and Adams are on the same field, Adams can play Nickel/Blitz and Blair can play strong safety. It can be big challenge for offense to detect. There is good chance it will work out. Something new is coming, this DL does not look even average not something we are used to see.
Would imagine Philly, Washington and New England will show interest.
He’s a good player. Sometimes you need a fresh start — see: Marshawn.
(I don’t think the Seahawks will sign him, no, but it wouldn’t be the worst punt to take given Carson is a FA next year)
Pittsburgh’s a good shout too.
Will be interesting to see if he clears waivers. I don’t think he will. Only due $4m for this year, so well worth it for anyone who needs a shot in the arm at RB.
Then again, nobody was willing to toss JAX a bone for him either:
My guess is he will probably clear waivers and then someone will take a punt.
Remember this spring when we were hypothesizing Jax packaging Calais and Fournette in a trade for one of our draft picks? Turns out they both could’ve been had for less than we thought.
Could’ve have Ngakoue too.
But thankfully we haven’t made that mistake and plumped for retaining our RFA’s and adding studs like Benson Mayowa, BJ Finney and Brandon Shell.
How crazy would it have been if we traded a 1st and 3rd for those 3 guys? Obviously some numbers would’ve been needed to be adjusted, but damn…
Thanks a lot Rob. Now I’m back to Anger.
I’d been transitioning from Bargaining (Clowney will sign with the Hawks) and getting a strong grasp on Depression.
I want to see Rob in happy mood, you know when that will happen. Rob and most of SDB fans are very salty on progress of DL. Sometime i feel, are we not seeing what they are and vice versa. What the heck, even not so good players are getting injured and there is no replacement. We are still signing DBs what is going on.
“Rob and most of SDB fans are very salty on progress of DL”
No I am not.
Why are some people so incapable of having a proper conversation about the Seahawks without denigrating it using these terms?
It’s not about being ‘salty’. It’s about having conversations about things that actually matter regarding this team and its future success. If you want fluff there are plenty of other websites churning that out daily.
This is salty
https://twitter.com/mrtommygman/status/1287883147888046082
Not at the time, they couldn’t. Teams will ALWAYS get more pre-draft (or during the draft) then they get after it. And they typically get less and less as the season approaches. Case in point: Yannick Ngakoue would have cost a #1 “and more when Jacksonville first tagged him but the price went down as the season approached and it became clear to everyone (not just Jacksonville) that he was NOT going to sign his tender and report to the team. What it would have taken to get Campbell and Fournette on draft day would have been higher than what they ended up going for (in Fournette’s case, nothing).
Why would teams trade for a player they know you’re going to release. Especially if they think he’ll clear waivers and potentially be willing to sign with them for less than he’s scheduled to make if they traded for him? Business 101 right there.
Well sure, but I’m referring to the time before the Jags went all scorched-earth and leaked that Fournette was sleeping in meetings, etc. If you’re concerned about the Hawks overspending, I’d take a look the other moves they did this offseason.
Chris, just a suggestion you might consider. Tone down the snark just a little. None of us have all the answers here.
God forbid he ends up in the NFCW!!!!
Watching from clips from Steelers camp and wow Chase Claypool looks impressive for a rookie. He stands out on tape like DK did last year. Amazing how the Steelers always manage to get and develop these great young WR outside of Rd #1. Still dreaming of what Claypool and DK would have looked like outside with Locket in the Slot.
Sign Clowney this week! Sign Fournette and Marcell Dareus as well. I need to feel better about 2020.
Today’s the 1 year anniversary of the Clowney trade
Derwin James “will miss significant time” for the Chargers. Meniscus. He’s a stud tud and I feel bad for him. That franchise may have the worst injury bug in the NFL year after year.
https://www.nfl.com/news/chargers-s-derwin-james-meniscus-will-miss-significant-time
stud, not stud tud. Damn it a crappy typist like myself badly needs an edit feature here.
Again?! It’s unfortunate, but he’s gonna be 1 of those guys who had all the talent except for availability.
Alright ya’ll. Need help on my waiver wire. Here’s the scoop.
QB Russ
HB Derrick Henry
HB Cam Akers or Tarik Cohen
WR Tyreek Hill
WR DK Metcalf
WR/FLEX Terry McLaurin
TE Noah Fant
K Greg Zuerlein
DEF Pitt’s
Backups:
QB Brady
HB Tarik Cohen or Cam Akers
HB James White
WR Michael Gallup
WR Jalen Reagor
WR Justin Jefferson
TE Hockenson
Reagor’s hurt and it’s gonna affect his chemistry w/ the QB as rookie when he comes back. Who I grab in place of him?
Darius Slayton? Aiyuk? Curtis Samuel? Beasley?
Some else maybe?
Trev, should I grab Claypool? He’s available
I would Vol. Big Ben is back and in that offense I think he will put up numbers similar to DK last year. I think he is going to be an impact rookie.
I’m gonna do it. Was thinking last night how every year Pittsburgh finds a productive receiver. I like taking rookies because your guaranteed to get 3-4 breakout players at each position (RB & WR).
Maybe another TE or RB? What type of league?
Chris Thompson should get some run with Fournette gonzo. DJax might be a good swap for Raegor too. He went off week 1 last year, only to get hurt. He’s about the only healthy WR in Philly at the moment.
Curtis Samuel is one of my sleepers. Great route runner, who underperformed last year due to a QB with an inaccurate deep ball. Teddy should be able to turn that around.