Terron Armstead made headlines at the combine by running a 4.65 at 6-5 and 306lbs (it was later changed to an official 4.71, see above). I remember at the time wondering if Seattle would pull a reverse-Sweezy. Maybe they consider it? He’s got the length and the size they look for at defensive tackle. That’s some explosive speed for a big guy. Dion Jordan ran a 4.60 at 248lbs. Think about that comparison.
It’s fun to think about that kind of switch, yet in reality it’s unlikely. One of the reasons I suspect Seattle and Cable started to look at defensive converts is the extreme difference that’s started to emerge between offensive and defensive lineman. The best athletes in college play defense these days. As time goes on, it’s going to get harder and harder to find orthodox lineman apart from the usual stud left tackles. Once again the Seahawks are ahead of the curve in looking for defensive players who can switch. The league will catch on, especially if J.R. Sweezy develops into a permanent starter. We’d start to see more and more of this, because it could be the only way to match up physically in the trenches.
Moving from offense to defense — the reverse-Sweezy — seems unlikely. There’s already enough great athletes playing defense. Armstead is rare in that he actually has the tools to play offensive line in the modern NFL. Keep him where he is.
It’s been quite a journey for the former High School shot-putter. He started the draft process as an unknown from Arkansas Pine-Bluff, impressed at the Shrine game, made a last minute arrival at the Senior Bowl and left Indianapolis as a major talking point. No doubt many teams were scrambling to get hold of game tape after his performance at the combine.
As an athletic specimen, he’s the type Seattle probably salivates over. That’s why you can’t rule him out if he’s there at #56. As we’ve discussed before, the Seahawks can’t pay every offensive player top dollar. While Breno Giacomini performed very well for the most part last year, the right tackle position is sufficiently unimportant (context) that you don’t need to pay your starter $4.25m (Giacomini’s salary this year). It’s the kind of sacrifice you’ll need to make to keep guys like Russell Wilson, Percy Harvin, Russell Okung and Marshawn Lynch (etc) on the roster.
Armstead, if drafted at #56, would cost $644k as a rookie and a maximum of $1.2m by year four. That’s a huge saving for a position of limited importance (again, in context). Red-shirting him for a year behind Giacomini limits the need to throw him in at the deep end/ He could be spelled just like Sweezy and John Moffitt last year. It also allows Tom Cable to work with him and develop him into a more rounded pro.
I suppose you could argue that if the position is of secondary importance, why spend a second round pick? It’d be a fair point. Yet this is a team that has shown a tendency to chance their arm on upside. Armstead certainly has a lot of athletic potential and if they want to take a chance on a guy like this, they’re unlikely to find an alternative beyond day two. He has decent arm length (34 inches, the same as Menelik Watson, 1/4 of an inch shorter than Luke Joeckel). He’s definitely an intriguing player.
One of the reasons I argued heavily against taking Gabe Carimi in 2011 was because he’s a pure right tackle. I would never ever draft a player in round one who’s tagged as a pure right tackle. It usually means, like Carimi, they’re poor against the speed rush and play best in the run game. The NFL has changed and a lot of teams use dual rushers off the edge. Elite rushers like Mario Williams, Clay Matthews and J.J. Watt roam around, stunting and playing both edges. If you’re drafting a tackle in round one or two these days, I think the least you should expect is they can handle speed. A lot of these ‘pure’ right tackles can’t.
D.J. Fluker is another example. Watch Alabama tape and he has some struggles against speed. Yes he’s a powerful drive blocker for the run. I suspect, like James Carpenter, he’ll end up at guard because he’ll struggle when taking on the game’s best pass rushers. The one thing in Fluker’s locker is long arms — well over 36 inches to be exact. That’s some serious length.
Armstead has the quicks. It wouldn’t be misplaced confidence to believe he can cope well against a speed rush. I don’t take a great deal out of small school tape (see below) because the competition is so comparatively weak. Yet he did enough to keep me interested. And given Seattle has one of the best offensive line coaches in the league — I’d love to see what he could do with this guy. He’s a solid option at #56. Maybe even the type of player Seattle thrives on progressing.
Great read.
One quibble on the facts (that doesn’t really effect your argument):
Breno’s base salary is $3.5M in 2013 according to Rotoworld. His cap hit is $4.25M because of the remaining pro-rated portion of his $1.5M signing bonus. Cutting him in 2013 would save $3.5M in cap room (adding to the ~$9.5M cap space that we currently have).
Even if we let Breno play out his contract, he’s set to be a FA in 2014 and we should probably have a successor or some depth lined up behind him.
If he’s a day two prospect, I’d have to ask:
How does he compete? Can you see it on tape? Regardless of the level of the opposition, you should still be able to see how he fights through mistakes and how he plays.
Measurables kind of puts him on the day 3 track. Extras like production and competitiveness would be what pushes him to day 2.
Also remember, this is the second year where John has said that they pretty much have their draft board completed prior to the combine. I think the picks we’ve made bear that out. Does the tape scream 2nd round worthy?
I do recall that Armstead did have a solid reputation as a very athletic OT. So I’d have to think that it would have been apparent before he blew up the combine.
Can you clarify what you mean by measurables kind of put him on day 3 track? I thought his measurables compare favorably with the top Tackle prospects in the draft…His video looked impressive, albeit vs subpar competition…
Sure.
Decent measurables tend to put prospects on our radar. It’s like the ante for getting on the board in day 3.
If you aren’t all that talented, or have a lot of potential and are the right kind of player (competitive) with good measureables but modest talent … it gets you in the door.
Day 1 is usually guys with great measurables, visible talent and competitiveness. They have the whole package.
Day 2 I think is leftover day 1 guys (by seahawk grade), but with more of an emphasis on talent (on tape) and attitude. Measurables tend to not play as big a role in the day 2 picks. Although Tate and Wagner had really good measurables too at least as far as speed.
As opposed to conventional grading which over emphasizes measurables as befitting guys that should be at the top of the draft. Seattle doesn’t appear to link those at least in rounds 2 and 3. If they happen to coincide with good tape then great. But it’s not a given.
Great looking prospect. Very instinctual with his hands and quick feet. Adept at converting DE’s motion and energy against him to drive him into the turf or out of the play. Ridiculous speed next to fast Sweezy would create the best tandem of 2nd level blockers in football. That will keep Defensive coordinators up all night. With the likely prospect of Carpenter finally emerging as a road grader at LG next to Okung, our Beast game would be unstoppable without committing 8 in the box, which allows us to destroy teams with RW’s amazing ability to distribute the ball off of play action fakes. I think our 1st draft priority is to get the right guy to start next to Mebane and exploit all the double teams he commands by stuffing runs and stressing the middle of the pocket on early downs. If that guy is not there at #56 and Armstead is, I would be elated to have himin Tom Cable’s OL camp!
Terron Armstead is one of my favorite prospects in this draft! (along with Ryan Swope, Shamarko Thomas, and Phillip Steward). If we could get all of them, I would be ecstatic! (On a side note, Terron Armstead is a player I would almost have to draft if he was there at #56 because he is a player the Seahawks will never get to draft ever again at that range. Just a beast! (Similar to Bobby Wagner last year: Owned small school competition while having sweet measurables).
Shamarko is too short to see over the tall linemen and find the ball carrier…LOL. Actually, I do not know if I have ever watched film of a player more adept at drawing a bead on the ball carrier and then launching himself like a human missile. I will be surprised if he is not on the short list of 2013 Defensive ROY candidates. do not think we could resist his special talents and remarkable upside if he somehow lasts to our 3rd round pick. Higher priorities in the 2nd…
Yeah, really like all of those guys myself. Just all depends on what happens in the draft.
>”As an athletic specimen, he’s the type Seattle probably salivates over. ”
What is the basis for this statement?
I don’t think the Seahawks go after “athletic specimens” more than anyone else. They mostly look at football skills, with extreme athleticism as another factor.
So who are the “athletic specimens” Schneider and Carroll have drafted or signed? Maybe Bobby Wagner with his 4.45 speed, but it was really his ability to close and tackle (which isn’t exactly equivalent to speed) that made him desirable. Maybe Golden Tate with 4.42 speed at receiver, without much in terms of skills at the time? Who else?
The Seahawks probably put less value on “athletic specimens” than most teams. That’s one reason they are able to find such good players — who other teams ignore because they aren’t athletic and physical specimens — like Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman, Doug Baldwin (fast but small), Russel Wilson, etc.
“That’s one reason they are able to find such good players — who other teams ignore because they aren’t athletic and physical specimens — like Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman”
This makes no sense at all. Just because most of the league did not view them as athletic, physical specimens with regards to the norms of their respective positions does not make them less the part. Guys who are 6’3″ + and can run and hit and cover like they do are damn fine athletes.
“The Seahawks probably put less value on “athletic specimens” than most teams”
I have no idea what this statement means. My translation is that they focus on what they can do as opposed to what they can’t, which is nothing new…
Who else?
Bruce Irvin, number 15 overall in the draft. Earl Thomas, a blistering centre fielder, #14 in the draft. How about trading a trio of picks for Percy Harvin? How about drafting a defensive tackle who’d never played offense and converting him to guard because athletically he was superior to most guards available in the draft? How about making Russell Wilson the franchise quarterback, a guy who isn’t exactly what you’d call a cumbersome pocket passer? How about all the little projects they’ve taken on, like signing a basketball player recently on a three year deal? Or trying out guys like Jameson Konz and Ricardo Lockette? Byron Maxwell, Winston Guy and Jeremy Lane ran in the 4.4’s. The penchant for speed at linebacker, which is why Wagner was drafted in round two and why guys like Malcolm Smith get their opportunities?
Being an athletic specimen isn’t just about straight line speed, either. James Carpenter was an enormous left tackle, who excelled as a defining blocker in Alabama’s scheme. Put him next to Usain Bolt and nobody calls him an athlete. In the context of the NFL, he’s an athletic specimen. You listed Kam Chancellor as a non-athletic specimen. I beg to differ there.
The foundation of this team is built around competitive spirit, speed and athleticism. I don’t know how anyone can argue against that.
I agree with Rob
This is a great summary. In a nutshell, they look for extraordinary length, speed, elusiveness, force, explosiveness, or overall athleticism. They also put a premium on football instinct, intelligence and leadership in some key roles. The thing they all had in common was a particular area(s) they were above average with high ceilings in terms of overall potential. With so many of their key roles covered, I concur they will be more likely to take risks on guys with very high potential who may be considered damaged goods by more conservative organizations.
Korey Toomer and Mike Morgan have ridiculous speed as well. RW has good speed but is ridiculously nimble as evidenced not only by his shuttle time at the combine, but obviously on full display every Sunday as defenders whiff futily at where he once was…
Unique physical traits are definitely high on our list when choosing players, especially on defense. It may not be what is termed as pure athleticism aka speed, but physical traits like long arms, extraordinary size and strength, extraordinary speed, big hands, or any other physical characteristic Pete and John think they can put to good use.
I have to be honest Bob, I haven’t been all that keen on your style of commenting since coming to the forums in the last week or so. I find your posts to be very combative and somewhat aggressive…repeatedly calling players garbage and such isn’t the way folks roll around here. Furthermore, there has yet to be a post where you agreed with anything anyone has said. Every post has been to point out the flaws in everyone else’s logic. Now, I’m all for people having different views and expressing them, there are a number of regular commenters on here that I almost never agree with their views, but I have never called them out on an individual basis for it. I think the reason is, they aren’t doing it in a way that is so blatantly dismissive of others while making their points. They are simply offering their views in a much more matter of fact way. I feel that your style clashes greatly with the bulk of visitors to this board.
My suggestion would be to sit back and lurk for a while. Get a feel for how the people here interact and speak to one another, how they express their opinions and differences. People here will respect your views a great deal more it they aren’t constantly trying to find them, hidden amongst all of the negativity.
I think I may be the wrong person to be the one saying all of this as I comment so infrequently. But, having said that, I have been coming here since it was an actual blog, and I always read all of the comments and am very familiar with the regular commenters and their views. I have always enjoyed the overall vibe of this board and I guess I would prefer that it keep that sense of community that it has here.
Sorry for the call out and the rant…I’ll contribute something football related next time.
I agree. This site has the best commenting of all Seahawks sites out there (I’ve left commenting on field gulls and TNT insider because it’s a pure waste of time) and I make a point to read every comment by every commentor and really like the interaction with Rob and Kip, but Bob333… I’m skipping over your comments now and many others probably are as well… You sound like a jerk.
If you want someone who is really a physical specimen without football skills, then it’s Lawrence Okoye, an Olympic discus thrower from the U.K. who is considering trying out for the NFL:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2301616/Lawrence-Okoye-wanted-NFL-teams-impressing-Regional-Combine-Atlanta.html
6’1″ 295 lbs
bench: ~500lbs
40yd: 4.78
Vertical Jump: 35 inches
R-short shuttle: 4.48
L-short shuttle: 4.38
Broad Jump 125 inches
10yd split: 1.71
20yd split: 2.64
Smart: supposed to study at Oxford
#5 in the world in discuss.
No relation to Christian Okoye who played for Azusa Pacific and Kansas City in the late eighties.
Well, he did study at Oxford. But he didn’t look like the #5 discuss thrower in the world at the Olympics. Being British I followed Lawrence’s Olympic journey with close interest. He started playing rugby, moved on to discuss and is now trying for the NFL. Unfortunately, guys who bounce around sports like this rarely seem to stick. I’d argue if he didn’t stand out as a rugby player with those skills to the point he turned to discuss throwing, then the chances are he won’t stand out in the NFL.
I would love to sign this guy! British Discus Thrower is a pretty abnormally cool prospect!
I like the idea of Discus throwers converted to DL. Imagine their spin moves ahahaha
Well played Kenny. Well Played 🙂
So is an Estonian Shot putter who runs the 40 in 4.6s, with a 1.63s 10yd split, and can put up an amazing 38 reps on BP, while standing 6-8 280lbs.
The Sports Radio Draftniks here in San Diego are saying that Armstead could be a target in Rd 2 if they couldn’t get any of the top3 OT’s, with Fisher being their favorite. Kiper did a conference call the other day saying they need to trade to #6 with the Browns to have any shot at Fisher. I guess Tom Telesco visited Armstead not too long ago and they were the first team to interview him.
There’s a very good chance he lands in San Diego.
I was just validating your 2nd round assessment for Armstead. If Diego is looking at him in 2nd Rd, hell why not us? Personally, I’d rather go CB/DLine for our pick but that’s the best part of this whole draft: we aren’t tied to any one position and we can let value slip to us, starting to feel “Ravenesque” about this draft…
Any chance you see SEA dropping out of 2nd round and acquire more mid round picks?
Absolutely. Perhaps not a big drop, something more like the trade in 2011 that saw them move back and take Moffitt. I think if possible they’d like to replenish picks for 2014. Perhaps a deal where they move back into the early third and collect a 2014 4th plus a 5th or 6th this year? That could work. The talent available at 56 and the early third will be very similar.
Call that the “Early 3rd Special”
Marcus Lattimore in the 3rd then???
I love the idea of lattimore he might be a guy we rehab and turn into picks in the future or he could take over for lynch. Gambling on a guy like him is a good way to get top notch talent on this team with out having high first round picks.
The Seahawks have tried the offense to defense switch already, with Jameson Konz. While he was definitely more just athlete in general than a defined position, it hasn’t been much of a successful switch for all intents and purposes. It’d be a cool thing if it worked though.
I say Armstead is gone in the first round. He’s this year’s version of Dontari Poe.
On topic…I’m intrigued by the measurables, but I’m hoping for more of an impact player in the second. With so many second round grades, I’d like to see an inexpensive, longterm WR, nickel CB that can move outside with a BB departure, longterm DT although I don’t know that this is the draft for that, TE whether a Joker type or a more inline guy, or if a K. Greene is there. I do think they need a solid swing tackle, but could probably look to get one in the 5th once all the second rounders are gone. I sure like the articles about these guys though. It’s going to make my draft viewing much more enjoyable this year as I find I should recognize the bulk of the players right up to the 3rd/4th round this year.
On a side note and way off topic…has anyone been watching “Game Changers” on NFL Network?
Of the three episodes that have aired, mya favorites from each have been:
WR – Kenny Stills…I won’t claim to know much about him as a player. And his size doesn’t make him attractive for whatI’d like the Hawks to go after…but I felt he had the most genuine personality of the five WR’s on the show.
CB – Desmond Trufant…I thought he showed the most hustle of the group, especially in the block shedding drill.
QB – Matt Barkley…although in all fairness they did spent a lot more time on him compared to anyone else. Geno Smith was my least favorite of the group. Something about him doesn’t scream competitive to me. I don’t seem him as a leader of men. Felt the same way about Cam Newton. Just a general standoff-ness about him. Glennon was just kind of ho hum. Aaron Rodgers little brother(already forgot his first name) seems like quite the character and very competitive, with a really big chip on his shoulder and something to prove. I like that.
With all of that said, none of those opinions have anything to do with their skills levels. Just an overall feel after hearing them speak and that kind of thing.
As good as Armstead is, I would say the Hawks need to target a position of need like DT or TE.
I am hoping for Sylvester Williams at #56, they should trade up 10 picks to get him, but it would be worth it.
3rd Rd target Goard, 6’4″ WR and convert him to TE Joker. He is very good.
Then you can go with best OL available.
I am also hoping for Sly or a WR/te but at least with me it is because those picks are more fun olive is kinda boring even though it is definitely nessacary. One thing Rob pointed out in the article though is how much cheaper a rookie RT would be then geno so that kind of has me excited about the possibility there.
I don’t know why some people are suggesting trading down to get more picks, when the 10 picks they have will not all make the team. The Hawks should trade up whenever they can and draft only 4-5 better players that best fit their need.
I agreee not only did PC/JS say they probably won’t make the team, but we don’t have the money to sign all 10 picks as it is. Package and trade up. We got us some extra picks in future years with the Flynn trade, be satisfied when we have to worry about resigning our core guys the next couple of years anyway. I’d sign Sly Williams or Jon Hankins Rd. 2 and Zaviar Gooden Rd.3 We signed Will Blackmon – let him and Thurmond duke it our for nickel corner if we can’t get honey badger Rd. 4
With something to contribute to this article, I see in mocks Armstead has been dropping to the 3-4 Rd. and would be very excited to get him, especially if we package and trade up!
In the new CBA only the top 51 highest earners count against the cap. So theoretically, the Seahawks can draft as many rookies as they like. I think what we have to remember here is… while every player won’t make the final roster, spreading the net to find the guys who can break the team shouldn’t be ruled out.
5 year $37 million extension for A. Davis in SF. Wow.
7 a year for a RT?
Their 2010 class is going to be coming due about the time Okung/Thomas do. Bowman was extended last year to the tune of 5y/45m/25m guaranteed.
If Davis is going for 5/37, what will Iupati go for? I’d have to think Hutch money.
Compare to Max Unger at 4/25. Bowman was actually guaranteed more than Unger’s whole contract.
They’re reaping the rewards of their deal with Staley. I’d have to think he’s going to be pretty unhappy with these deals. He signed a 9 year deal (through 2017) that will pay him around 2.7m. As a LT, that’s chump change. Will be worth watching how that dynamic plays out. Because their RT is now going to make more this year than their LT will in the next 2 years.
They can also afford to do this, because outside of Kaepernick and Aldon Smith, they don’t have any restructures on the books for the next 4 years. Their 2012 class is pretty much not getting resigned, and the rest of their 2011 class shouldn’t either except for Miller but he’s a FB. That deal should be quick and easy.
This draft year is just HUGE for them. They have a lot of talent they need to find successors for. There is nothing in their pipeline. If they have another draft similar to 2012, they are going to quickly decay as attrition sets in on the 2005/2006/2007 classes.
Top 51 count in offseason, once season starts everyone counts.
They have plenty of money to sign all 10 picks. They may not all make the team but it won’t be because of money. Money is not an issue when it comes to picks.
Finally a place to get accurate Cap Stats. Not the easiest to read but updated 4x a day.
https://nflplayers.com/reports/RunPublicReport.aspx?report=top51
“I would never ever draft a player in round one who’s tagged as a pure right tackle.” Great point and one that I agree with. I thought we overdrafted Carpenter, but if he works out at LG, then it will be worth it. SF on the other hand, spent a 1st rounder on Anthony Davis, a foolish pick imaho. Davis is athletic, and fortunately for SF, they had Singletary there to make sure he played up to his potential. But if they had any other coach, Anthony very well could have ended up displaying the talent of a 5th round pick. San Francisco does not show Singletary the appreciation that he deserves. WIthout his discipline, VD and AD would be busts. And who knows who else he has motivated in to being a good football player.
I would never say never 🙂
Pete and John never say never.
That said, I don’t see any RTs in this draft that are R1 worthy. I’m sure some will go. But let other teams indulge in that.
Good teams get RTs that are equal or better than DJ Fluker in day 3. Bad teams take DJ Fluker in day one because they can’t get good players in day 3.
I don’t feel like I need to know or be excited for whomever we pick for our RT. Spend that draft capital on players that can better impact our fortunes.
I Wish W Had A DT With His Measurables To Line Up Next To Mebane!!!
I have to admit, ever since Walter Jones ran a 4.72 40 at the combine (I seem to recall he was around 294), and then turned into an All Pro/HOF player, I have kept an eye on 40 times for OT.
What is shocking to me is the number of OT’s who ran under 5.0 this year. Since Walter Jones ran that 4.72, the only other OT over 290 who ran under 4.8 that I recall was Trent Williams. Then this year there are not one, but two who ran 4.71 – 4.72.
From watching Jones over the years, as well as reading articles and reports, the secret to Jones success were his feet. No one could ever get around the guy, no matter how fast they were. That is not something that you can teach, it is pure skill. As an OT, you don’t have to thrive on contact either in order to be quite good, just a workman lunch pale ethic.
My eyes lit up when Armstead ran that 4.71. If the Seahawks can somehow draft him, it will put them in extremely good position going forward. Armstead will have the footspeed to play LT, providing us with additional insurance on the OL. It allows greater flexibility in the future, and will likely result in two Pro Bowl caliber OT’s. If they need to trade up to get the kid, I think it would likely still be worth it.
is it out of the question to see sweezy bounce out to RT? He seems to have enough size, and after all in this zone blocking system, the right tackle is pretty much the third guard on the line. It seems the true responsible for pass blocking falls to Unger and Okung, all the linemen seem to pass block within a scheme for each play called. Just having Unger and Okung playing dominant at their positions allows the offensive line calls to open it up a little, and take pressure off the RT. I would not be surprised to see Sweezy out there in the first camp getting more than obligatory reps.
Here’s a question for anyone: When is Giacomini’s $4.25 million salary guaranteed for this season, and how much of that would we save on the cap if we were to cut him before said deadline? That could be a telling fact about what the Seahawks will look for in Round 2. We’ve already suspected they would draft an OT there, who can come in and potentially start right away, but if they are looking for a Giac replacement there shouldn’t be much doubt. They will draft an OT if the right player is there. Right?
I guess I’m in the minority around here as I think Giacomini did okay last season, especially in the second half. Yes, he got a lot of penalties in the first half of the season, but he got that under control. I also think that both his run blocking and pass blocking improved as the season progressed.
If you were paying attention, you noticed that the majority of his unnecessary roughness penalties came when he was trying to protect other players on the offense from the players on the opposing teams defense, when he felt they were crossing the line and especially after the play was over. By seasons end he was no longer incurring these penalties, but he was always somewhere close to the ball carrier just to be sure. Maybe it’s just me, but I kind of like that.
That said, I think the Seahawks still should pick an OT in this draft, as it is one of the positions where I think they lack depth. I like Chris Faulk at around the 4th round, but have noticed that nobody else here seems to mention him much so I’m probably alone in liking him as well.
Finally, Giacomini’s contract is up next year and guess what? If it were my decision and the price was right, I would re-sign him.
I would also seriously consider re-signing Giacomini… but I fear it’s a luxury for a team loaded with talent. Eventually if they want stars at LT, QB, RB, WR, DE, CB, FS, LB etc… they’re going to need a few positions that provide value. A right tackle earning $600K-$1.2m over four years might have to be the way forward.
I’m not suggesting Giac is a bad option. Like I’ve stated before I think he’s a good tackle. But if you can get a better “value” player in place of Giac than there wouldn’t be a need to eat the $4.25 million this year. That could be a lot of cap room to carry over into next year..!
Rob, what’s your take on Jeff Baca, the G from UCLA? To me, he’s sort of the Terron Armstead of interior linemen. He was the the most athletic interior OL at the combine and has long arms and decent size. After the combine I was expecting to hear more about him but I haven’t heard anything (which probably means he’s not really very good).
Not watched him to be honest Erik.