What I’m thinking after the Ravens beatdown

The Seahawks are not a bad football team, despite what we saw in Baltimore on Sunday. They just aren’t a contender either.

They are a young, developing roster in the second year of a rebuild.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s where they should be. They’ve had a couple of really good drafts and were trending in the right direction. They’re not close to being a Super Bowl team though. Not close at all based on Sunday, where Baltimore were superior in every facet and embarrassed the Seahawks.

Yet a couple of unpredictable events got this team carried away, believing they were something they weren’t.

The first event was the 49ers going on a three-game losing streak. Until that point, they looked like NFC West winners-elect. I suspect, with their assortment of blue-chip players and a coach capable of being offensively brilliant, they may well return to the status of one of the NFC’s most feared teams in due course.

Nevertheless, the unexpected Niner slump suddenly plonked the Seahawks at the top of the NFC West standings.

They only got there, though, thanks to the second event. A header from Jamal Adams. The performance against Cleveland was awful. They couldn’t do anything well in the second half. That uniquely weird and fortuitous moment where Adams headed it to Julian Love changed the game. It gave Seattle a short-field and they capitalised. Instead of being 4-3 and having serious questions to answer about a poor performance, they were now ahead of the 49ers in the standings at 5-2.

Adding to this is the reality of the schedule. After the Cleveland game, the Seahawks had officially played the third easiest schedule so far. From Baltimore onwards, they were set to face the toughest schedule. It was about to get a lot harder, as we saw on Sunday when reality started to bite.

The Seahawks got carried away and made a huge splashy trade they really had no business making. It’s been exposed for all to see that they’re not ‘one player away’. Leonard Williams faces the impossible task of justifying giving up a second round pick for his services in the next nine games. It’s hard to imagine how he could possibly pull it off. He’s a good player but he’s not an outstanding player — either as a run defender or pass rusher. He’s a useful addition, not a game-changer.

Had the Seahawks been more restrained he would’ve been a nice option as a free agent at the end of the season, with the second rounder still intact. Instead, while chasing a misguided contending position, they’ll now have to compete for Williams as a free agent minus that crucial second rounder. All this for ten games when we can clearly see this isn’t a Super Bowl team.

Some are already wafting away any concern about the trade. ‘The Seahawks used a second round pick on Dee Eskridge so it doesn’t matter’ someone tweeted to me on Sunday. As if wasting one second rounder is justification for repeating the act. Not to mention that some of Seattle’s legendary picks in the Carroll/Schneider era have been day two selections.

Even more people are assuming they’ll just extend Williams’ contract and everything will be fine. As we explained on Wednesday, it isn’t that simple. The Seahawks have spent their cap money for next year already. The only way to keep Williams is to cut others — and that means from the highly paid Geno Smith, Quandre Diggs and Jamal Adams trio. Otherwise, there simply won’t be enough to spend on Williams, Bobby Wagner, Jordyn Brooks or any of the other names on a long list of free agents who’ll need to be re-signed or replaced.

This was an ultra-aggressive move in line with the ‘F those picks’ mentality of the Rams. Except they aren’t the 2021 Rams. They are the 2023 Seahawks, in year two of a rebuild.

Now, when they should be putting together a plan for stage three, they’ve already used the cap space and their second biggest 2024 asset by the start of November.

This is why some of us continue to scrutinise the decision making in Seattle. After two years of restraint and careful management with the draft, they’ve resorted to old (bad) habits by frittering away resources.

Further to that, someone asked this question in the post-game live stream. What is Seattle’s identity on either side of the ball?

They don’t run the ball consistently well. They don’t feature any of their star players enough for any of them to be the identity. Geno Smith isn’t playing well enough to be the face of the offense and his passer rating is down to 86.4, similar to Deshaun Watson’s and Desmond Ridder’s. That’s the kind of statistical company he’s keeping now, not to mention the eight turnovers in four games.

At the moment if you had to describe Seattle’s offense you’d say ‘streaky’. Given the way it hasn’t functioned in certain games, it’s almost generous to settle on ‘streaky’.

With the defense there are more positive signs and it’s possible Devin Witherspoon will become the identity — or his physical brand of football will. Yet it feels like they’re still a collection of young players figuring things out rather than necessarily being a unit on the brink of a catchy new nickname, where fans of other teams can point to a scary aspect of their play.

Let’s also be honest, look who they’ve played. The hopeless Giants, Cardinals and Panthers. A Browns team missing its quarterback and star runner. They couldn’t stop the Rams or the Ravens. The only really impressive display came against Cincinnati. If the game on Sunday is any indication, we might feel differently about this unit in a month as they tick off harder opponents.

They’ve talked in the past about being the bully. Not on this evidence. They got punched in the mouth over and over again by the Ravens.

What do the Seahawks do better than anyone else on either side of the ball? It’s hard to pinpoint anything. Thus, how could they feel this was the time to make an aggressive move?

Mike Tanner noted the following after the Ravens debacle:

“The Seahawks are good enough to scratch out late-game wins over the Lions or Browns and earn a Wild-Card berth. They aren’t good enough to beat a Super Bowl contender that’s playing to its capabilities.

The problem becomes obvious when you study the Seahawks roster. Their best overall players are the just-acquired Leonard Williams and one-foot-in-Canton Bobby Wagner. Who can the Seahawks turn to when they need to turn a game around? Geno? The 31-year old version of Tyler Lockett? Jamal Adams? A Super Bowl team needs two or three take-over-the-game type players. The division-rival 49ers have five or six. The Seahawks may have zero.”

There are key questions that need answering:

— Are the coordinators currently employed the right men for the job? Shane Waldron continues to get very little out of an offense that is littered with dynamic skill players. The offense was awful throughout against Baltimore, having stalled for long periods against LA, Cincinnati, New York, Carolina and Cleveland previously. Meanwhile — the defense has played well at times against bad opponents/quarterbacks. In their tougher games so far they’ve given up a lot. I’m not sure anyone can say with convinction that Clint Hurtt has won the benefit of the doubt yet. After all, they talked up the improvements with the run-defense and then promptly gave up 298 yards against Baltimore.

— Who is going to be the quarterback for the long term? It isn’t Geno Smith. That has surely been answered now? That doesn’t mean Drew Lock should start instead. It does mean that it’s time for us all to embrace that he’s nothing more than a short-term placeholder. A bridge to what’s next. For this franchise to reach the next level and get to where it wants to be, they need a better quarterback. They’re going to support Geno publicly and rightly so. Quarterback controversies are bad news, can split a locker room and create negative drama. Behind the scenes though, I hope they’re being honest about the need to find a better option for 2024 and beyond. It’s also a little frustrating to think they’ve been watching this version of Geno and still thought it’d be wise to start mortgaging the 2024 draft to chase success this year.

— Are the Seahawks prepared to be honest about expensive veterans? Geno Smith is due at least $33.2m next year if the Seahawks win nine games. That’s too much. Forget market rate. You’re either in possession of an elite QB earning an elite salary, or you need to be paying a cheap salary for a bridge or rookie. Having an average starter on tens of millions is a great way to be an average team, stuck in a rut. There’s always a 2022 Geno Smith or a 2023 Baker Mayfield to turn to if you’re shopping for the short-term. Meanwhile, Jamal Adams cannot be on the roster next year with a $26.9m cap hit. Ditto Quandre Diggs and his $21.2m cap hit. With only $6m in effective cap space to spend since ridding themselves of a second round draft pick salary, they need to clear-out some big, baggy contracts. Smith, Diggs and Adams cannot earn what they are due for the performances we’re seeing in 2023.

I’m sure you’ll have your own questions you wish to add. Regardless, a 37-3 hammering by a legit team has a tendency to expose warts. Last year the Seahawks started 6-3 and finished 9-8. I think this current team is nearer to that 9-8 team than they are a franchise who should be contemplating a massive trade before the deadline.

I hope it doesn’t cost them, especially in a draft that is thin for the most part but does have some attractive quarterback and interior O-line options.

While they got carried away after that Cleveland win to make the Williams deal, I also hope this result acts as a wake-up call. They aren’t ready to contend. They should still be protecting assets and continuing to build. Especially because those assets could be needed to find the next quarterback who will be required to truly reach the top again.

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  1. geoff u

    Two years now post Wilson and still no apparent plan at quarterback, yet we’re in constant win now mode because Pete may retire any year, but we’ll never be contenders until we develop a quarterback, but we can’t because we need to win now…? What is this hellhole?

    What is this team’s identity PERIOD

    • Dubb

      Well said. 70-year old coach knows he has a short window. Future picks mean nothing. Just waiting for the sale of the franchise for the changes that need to be made.

      • Parallax

        I’ve had the same thought. I hope it doesn’t require a team sale. Hell, I’d be open to Pete sticking around if he became more flexible. But what are the chances of that?

        The trade was about as stupid as can be. I was saying that the second it was announced. A lot of people were pissed at me but I felt like I was saying the Emperor has no clothes. Such an incredibly wasteful, stupid, fucked-up move. Just when it was possible to believe they had learned to covet their draft resources and spend them wisely. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! A fireable offense if I were the owner.

        I don’t know if Schneider is responsible. I don’t know if Pete gets to make these decisions alone. I’d like to boot whomever is responsible. If that’s Pete and John, I’d show them both the door.

        • Tomas

          I fear and believe the Bone Smuggler will never fire Pete so long as she controls the team. Three more seasons of Pete, perhaps? Hope not, but she certainly doesn’t seem eager to unload the franchise. Suspect her brother is not happy looking down from above.

  2. Romeo A57

    The Seahawks identity is Pete Carroll’s ego. He knows that he doesn’t have many years left to coach the Seahawks. Either the team is sold in the next few years or the media and fans will get tired of consistently mediocre teams and demand a change. New ownership would look at the teams recent lack of success and clean house.

    Once they traded Russell Wilson, which was the correct move at the time, and has since proven to be a great move, they needed to go through a proper rebuild. Get rid of the expensive veterans and stockpile as many draft picks as possible. Pete didn’t want to go through a complete rebuild because, he couldn’t believe he would be around long enough to coach the Seahawks once the roster was stacked. He could not survive a couple of 10 loss seasons in a row.

    He was still trying to build the defense from back to front by overpaying for two safties. Once he got his expensive toys at Safties and his defense was still terrible, then he started investing in Edge Rushers which most every other NFL Organization values more than Safties.

    • Parallax

      I wish new ownership guaranteed success but it doesn’t. So much depends on who the owners are. Consider how some teams have been crippled by bad ownership. The Jets come to mind. The Cardinals aren’t far behind. The Colts got lucky with Luck and have been a disaster ever since, largely because Irsay is a moron.

      So we need not just a new owner but a really good one. Like Paul Allen was. Like Jody could still be if she made some tough decisions. We need a young, whip smart, offensive minded coach and a truly savvy GM. We don’t know enough of what goes on behind the scenes to know if it might make sense to keep Schneider. Someone made excellent draft picks the last two years. Who was responsible for this dog of a trade and who was responsible for the terrible drafts prior to 2022?

      • Romeo A57

        Absolutely correct that new ownership doesn’t guarantee any success. You might end up with embarrassments like a Daniel Schneider or Donald Sterling. Maybe even cheapskates like the Mariners owners.

        This team has not been a serious contender since the Superbowl loss and it is past time for a regime change.

        I am also curious how John Schneider would function in a more normal NFL Organization not answering to the Head Coach. With all those years of draft flops before 2022, and poor returns on trades not involving Russell Wilson, I am not certain he has earned sticking around for a new regime.

        • IHeartTacoma

          Very good question about Schneider. Talent acquisition and salary management have not been great.

          Seahawks might not only be in the dreaded QB purgatory, but also in owner, GM, and coaching hells as well.

          On the bright side, my Sundays are freed up for the next couple months.

    • Big Mike

      He knows that he doesn’t have many years left to coach the Seahawks. Either the team is sold in the next few years or the media and fans will get tired of consistently mediocre teams and demand a change.

      Great post Romeo except I’m going to push back on this. The fans of this team and the Seattle media will never do this imo. Pete is a God to the majority of the fanbase and media.

      • Peter

        Agreed. I’m actually not sure where the level line is where Pete gets criticism.

        I honestly think relative to how high they hold him up we could be looking at 82 year old Pete, no more championships, and a perfect .500 record still singing his praises.

        • AlaskaHawk

          What your talking about is not only a new owner. It’s that owner pulling a Jerry Jones and managing the team until it is back in winning condition. The new owner picking new coaches, new general manager, and presumably influencing the draft picks and veteran contracts for a couple years.

          Are you all prepared for that level of interference? Some one has to do it. Either a new owner or a new GM/Head Coach.

  3. Dubb

    When the camera cut to the Seahawks sideline and Spoon appeared to be yelling at Adams, I wonder what was being said. Spoon was very animated.

    • Big Mike

      “Why the hell are they paying you THAT much when you are mediocre at best?”
      “Are you ever going to stop celebrating a routine tackle?”
      “I’m what you were supposed to be and I ain’t gettin’ paid jackshit. You’re stealing the money'”
      “Alan didn’t dress you well today.”
      “YOU’RE the leader of this defense?”

      I saw that too. Maybe by some miracle they’ll dump the peacock and Diggs and let Spoon become the leader of the D like Adams and Diggs fancy themselves to be.

      • Peter

        I like all those.

        Hope to see less and less: Adams played! Adams doesn’t always have the stats, but tge defense sure plays better with him out there!

        Folks need to let it go. He’s an extremely expensive JAG. Whatever he does or doesn’t do is not markedly different than neal, etc.

        I’m glad he’s healthy I guess? Not sure it matters if he suits up or doesnt.

      • WallaSean

        Always in favor of any grief involving Alan!

  4. seaspunj

    Seahawks pushed all in this season

    love it or not this is their path for this season as a poker chip and a chair hoping to make a run with a lot of luck.

    Geno is clearly showing his old forms. like it or not 12s needs him to make better decisions down the stretch or its a one and done in the first round or worst missing the playoffs all together

    I truly dont know if this upcoming draft they draft a QB. they tend to not draft a QB no matter how badly they needed one to develop.

    this past draft i wanted to get Levis Richardson or Stroud. The Seahawks didnt like Levis for whatever reason and regardless its moot now.

    What i am concerned about is any future QB either a cheap bridge or drafted. Can the front office truly put all their hopes on that 1 player to lead them to a super bowl as a rookie or 2 seasons from now? it sounds like an enormous burden and most likely be an unfair situation setting up any QB for failure.

    Unfortunately as much as i want the Seahawks to draft a QB i think JS/PC run it back with Geno and Drew and not draft a franchise QB next year.

    I hope i am wrong

    • geoff u

      This is though, how is it any better for them to pin all their hopes on Geno Smith or Drew Lock winning us a Super Bowl this year or 2 seasons from now? How the hell does anyone believe either of them will give you a better shot than a rookie? I mean clearly a Super Bowl ain’t happening this year, does anyone here honestly believe Geno or Lock will get it done next year? Over Will Levis in his second year?

      In the long run, being shortsighted is always a killer. If you can’t get there with the guys you got, stop pretending and find the person you need.

    • Joe

      I remember days before the draft there were rumors Stroud might drop to #5 and Rob was GIDDY… We know now that Houston was able to control the draft from their #2 pick and Stroud was unattainable. we should go back to the time PCJS spent with Stroud and observe their comments, body language, etc. Being able to closely observe the top talents and now see how each has translated to the pros was/is a goldmine of data. Now, they need to make the next move for a young QB to groom, that is the only way this group can take the next step, otherwise they will remain in the “bloated NFL middle-class”

  5. Gary

    Everything that is wrong with this team can be traced to Pete Carroll and his ego. And we the fans are stuck with it for as long as he wants to amuse himself with his vanity project. He won a Super Bowl, I get it. Lots of coaches have won Super Bowls. On the evidence of the past decade it’s fair to ask if we have a Super Bowl championship because of Pete or despite him. This sentiment of wanting to build a statue of him I just can’t understand. Right now he and his cronies are an albatross around the necks of this team and we are doomed to an endless loop of 8-9 win mediocrity until he’s finally gone. Thanks for the memories, enjoy your retirement. Give me a young aggressive offensive-minded coach who answers to a smart and savvy GM. After two years on the fence I’ve finally decided I will not be renewing my season tickets next season if Always Com-Pete is back for one more go at Win Forever.

  6. CWagner

    When you look at how much is owed to Diggs, Adams, and Smith next year, it really puts into perspective how much money is being wasted. Diggs doesn’t have nearly the same impact he once did and we all know about the other two. I can’t remember if you’ve recently covered the safety position for the next draft, but I’m curious to know if how that might look for the hawks.

  7. Hawkdawg

    Maybe I’m just in a sh*tty mood because of that godawful butt-kicking today, but this situation just pisses me off. Not because we suck. We don’t, at least not ‘bottom of the league’ bad. Instead, it’s because this is yet another example of Pete getting hormonal, while believing he can rah-rah things into existence that simply don’t yet exist, and Schneider not properly serving as the counterweight to Pete’s enthusiasms.

    Williams might be great…on a team truly ready to be great. But we aren’t ready to be great, a fact made crystal clear today to the nation, not to mention to Williams himself. Why wasn’t it clear to Pete/John BEFORE this game? That’s what they are paid huge money to do–see clearly, and act accordingly, with patience as it is called for.

    I’m increasingly concerned that Pete is not the right coach for a methodical building of the Hawks into a championship team over 2-3 more years. He doesn’t have the patience for it anymore. That showed with Jamal Adams, and now again with Williams (albeit less grossly). I think the fan base actually has more patience than Pete, so long as the decisions he makes appear to flow from something more than this strange combination of hormones and the power of positive thinking. But to me at least it appears that this combination is what is running the show here, and that won’t get us much more than frustration.

    • Rob Staton

      Good post

    • Sea Mode

      Agree. JS needs to save face and throw PC under the bus if it was he who forced these terrible decisions. We know he won’t do it publicly, but hopefully ownership knows when the time comes.

      • cha

        JS told Steve Raible before the game that they’d pursued LW for a while now, last year they called and the NYG said ‘no thanks.’

        He also went on to say that LW was a ‘great culture fit.’

        So I’m not sure what the hesitation about signing him to an extension was.

  8. Oly hawk

    Agree with all of this. Sad to say but drafting JSN over will Levis might be a franchise defining mistake.

  9. LouieLouie

    I didn’t think the defense played as poorly as it seemed because the offense did absolutely nothing. It was 3 and outs. Punts. Turnovers. By some miracle they got a field goal. The offense was the problem. The defense gave the offense a gift at the end of the second quarter. What did the offense do? Long sack, then another long sack with a fumble turnover. It was the offense that stunk today, not the defense.

    • Rob Staton

      The defense gave up 300 rushing yards


      • Big Mike

        Oh c’mon Rob, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill. It was only 298 yards. Geez man. Way to be “over the top”.

        • geoff u

          Exactly! But it would’ve been 300 yds had we not traded for Williams, so 2nd rounder well spent IMHO

      • Elmer

        I know it’s just a one game sample, but it looks like they need to find a way to sign Williams for the future. Even if they have to sh*tcan a bunch of other players. And what’s going on with DreMont Jones.

      • LouieLouie

        Rob: They did give up 300 yards rushing. But at the end of the first half the defense had kept the team in the game. Had the offense been anything except missing in action, they would have gone into the 2nd half with a much different attitude. After the cluster “f” which was the last possession of the first half for the Seahawks, they were a beaten team.

        • Rob Staton

          Sure, I appreciate that.

          But 300 rushing yards is 300 rushing yards.

    • king

      Same old argument. For years, the Seattle offense carried the defense, producing top 10 or better seasons, while the defense couldn’t get within shouting distance of a top 10 unit. Even when the defense would open games getting gashed, it was somehow the offense’s fault that the defense played badly, despite consistently putting points on the board.

      This defense has been thoroughly over rated because of some decent showings against really bad teams and backup, or just plain bad, quarterbacks. Even in the showing against Cincinnati, Burrow was having his way with Seattle before he started consistently missing receivers with unforced errors.

      The offense, under Smith, is definitely not great, and was embarrassing yesterday, but it is not the reason the defense got worked.

      • LouieLouie

        King: That may have been true in past years, but not on Sunday. I think the defense is up-and-coming. They got hosed Sunday, but they weren’t the problem. There was NO OFFENSE the entire game. The only result from the offense was the punting stats.

    • Group Captain Mandrake

      The defense played decent the first three series. After that they just completely caved. It makes sense if they get run over in the second half when they are tired, but that shouldn’t happen after 1 quarter that was pretty even.

  10. Peter

    Rob first of all thanks for a great podcast with Robbie.

    At the nine week, eight game mark some things are beginning to be clear to me:

    1. Waldron needs to go. He’s not shown anything and now with the most loaded team in this era he’s producing the least.

    2. John. Pete. Who knows. Who cares. I keep hearing about an assemblage of talent. Where? Witherspoon, mafe, bradford. Am I missing anyone? Walker and Charbonnet should be deadly but the team doesn’t know how to use them. JSN I like a ton. Full stop. Also might not have been the pick for the team at this time. Cross. He sure is a LT. Jones is a whiff, love…should have kept neal for cost reasons. Wagner not the future. Clark is not now. And williams is a pointless move that hurts the future.

    3. I was calling the run defense a mirage a few weeks back. Turns out that was correct.

    Commenter LouCity is lower on eagles, niners than most but those teams can run. And we can’t stop the run. Maybe those teams aren’t great. But they’ll still be a problem for us.

    4. It’s not just lack of identity. Winning teams have units that are more “special,” than the opposition. When we were great Lynch killed people. The LOB was all swag, vinegar, and violence, and the QB was maybe the most ‘electric’ qb in the league. We are entirely unspecial at every level on this team. There’s not one area where I think we are “the best unit,” or best player in the league. Maybe Witherspoon gets there. Let’s put the best DB/best WR room in the league to rest. We aren’t.

    5. I’m legitimately pissed about the LW trade. Looking into the future holes remain: qb, te, og/ol, dt, lb, safety….and edge all need upgrades. Uchenna is good but out, hall hopefully gets good, taylor is almost useless, mafe actually good….that’s not great folks.

    • RMK-LouCityHawk

      Perspective and sleep are always helpful….they are informing my opinions today, as well as not having downed a half bottle of bourbon.

      I am high on the talent from the last two drafts, I also think the last two free agent cycles have been better, but feel a bit bi-polar. The L/W move presents that problem, it was bi-polar, it does help this team right now, but I think the Seahawks would have been better deactivating Taylor, and keeping their 2nd round pick yesterday.

      Rob’s point is well taken on this being year 2 of a re-set, which makes the L/W trade all the more untenable, I know, but don’t get caught in the weeds. People felt like tackle was solved, it wasn’t. People are feeling like multiple position groups are solved, they aren’t. This team needs 1 or even 2 more solid drafts to really compete at the highest level. There aren’t really any shortcuts.

      Lucas and his injury. Losing Chenna. Riq’s regression. Aging Lockett. DLine and LB needing resets. These are all works in progress.

      The frustration for fans is we don’t know. We don’t know who between PCJS is making which move, making which call. We may never know. Waldron’s seat is getting warmer, and the Raven’s game just turned the heat back up on Hurtt.

      A bit on Hurtt – Taylor leading the Edge group in snaps at Baltimore is coaching malpractice. I doubted myself when I felt like I saw him out there that much, and then I saw the snap counts. Any defense playing Darrell Taylor on more than 10% of the snaps will give up huge rushing yards. He is also much worse as a pass rusher than most people understand.

      SF was coronated the Super Bowl champions. They’ve lost three straight. The Eagles are playing a lot worse than their record indicates. Neither defense is as good as Baltimore’s. Neither team is as good running as Baltimore can be. I’ve done step by step deconstruction of these two teams. Only the Eagles would have a shot against Baltimore in my view due to their superior QB play and superior Edge group.

      I’ve retired my ‘Free Fly Zone’ moniker for the secondary with Spoon and Brown both playing better. I’ve said all off-season that CIN has the best WR room and it really isn’t close.

      Yesterday was a chance to watch Geno, then watch Burrow. Joe Burrow might be the best QB in the league, full stop, he is different than Mahomes, but so so good. Allen is also special.

      I’m frustrated as well, I legitimately am worried about Rob’s nightmare scenario, but this one is worse, where the Seahawks sneak into the Super Bowl by the skin of their teeth, only to be blown out ala yesterday. PC/Geno/Waldron/Hurtt all get automatic passes in most fans minds because we made it there, failing to recognize how easy that road was.

      • Peter

        It’s actually sucky that two dynamic and hopefully at some point three CB’s are backed up by a total display of mediocrity at safety. It’s a waste and a shame.

        I definitely agree about the niners. I just think them healthy vs. Us healthy they simply have more “special,” players than we do. Are they beatable? Absolutely.

        I know fans will disagree with me. But if we win the NFC championship but get our teeth kicked in ala like we did to the broncos or ATL vs. Patriots I’m going to be devastated.

        A rematch against the Ravens, a healthy Bengals, and the slightly floundering Bill’s because Allen is Allen and our team can’t stop QB’s that can move could be pretty ugly.

        • RMK-LouCityHawk

          No, this is 100% right.

          This team is a heartbreak waiting to happen, and it could happen at any time.

          Frankly, the Chief’s would be my worst nightmare matchup. That has 70-0 written all over it.

          • geoff u

            Hey come on now, that’s just ridiculous. The Chief’s defense isn’t all that great and we put up at least 10 to their 70

  11. PJ in Seattle

    “I don’t think this is about Geno at all.” – Pete Carroll

    Sounds like the definition of insanity. I’ll go with the glass half full take and say it also sounds a bit like the ominous ‘vote of confidence’.

    • Mick

      I understand not starting a storm on your QB, you need him next week too, it’s very likely Lock isn’t any better. But you could at least say something like “Geno needs to do better, just like the rest of the team”. It is very much about Geno, you didn’t even ask him to play like Mahomes, just throw the damn ball faster.

    • Lord Snow

      I agree with pete. The problem is not Gino it’s Pete

    • Group Captain Mandrake

      In a sense, I think I see what Pete is saying. Every part of the offense (and defense) was dogshit. Geno wasn’t good either, but the entire team was completely dysfunctional. Hopefully his head isn’t completely in the sand about Geno’s part though. He has not been good for quite a while now and is definitely not the answer for the future.

  12. CHaquesFan

    Don’t think Waldron is the issue, stuff like run/pass dynamic needs to be in Carroll’s hands and the play design seems good to me, but execution especially from Geno has been lacking

  13. Whit21

    I skipped for now the blog post.. i last the last paragraph, and i wish i wasnt the pessimist i know i am. But i call it like it is.. the trade at the deadline was dumb.. hawks are not 1 dtackle away.. forget leonard williams.. the best d tackle in the league won’t get them where they need to be..

    Am i crazy to think that what iv seen isnt good enough to really compete and they go and sell thier 2nd/5th round pick to win it all?

    I dont know who in their right mind could think that geno is gonna go anywhere.. its sad actually.. i would feel better with a near 50 year old matt Hasselbeck at this point..

    And saddest of all.. i think Russell Wilson and the broncos have played better than the hawks the last 3 to 4 weeks..

    • UkAlex6674

      1. We can still get get a QBOTF in 2024

      2. LW wasn’t reponsible for the absolute shit show that we witnessed in all three phases yesterday (boy am I done with Eskridge).

      3. Time to let Russ go, c’mon now. That genuinely isn’t the saddest part of all of this. The saddest part is we don’t know who we are at the point of the season teams are figuring themselves out for the business end of it.

      • Rob Staton

        Nobody is saying Williams was responsible though. Most people are simply frustrated that this team got carried away and mortgaged the future for a 10 game shot we can clearly see we aren’t ready for

      • Whit21

        Im just saying that it adds a little salt to the wound on RW and broncos. The better they do the further ack our r3 pick goes.

        Since the “retooling” began the hawks had done a good job to position themselves to have a young QB come in and play.. but they constantly push themselves back with the hopes of making a run.. they just flat out dont have the right guy at QB.. trading for jamal adams, trading for the players from Broncos. Beside the picks, all the players have been wasted commodities.

        Wont play lock, shelby harris was 1 and done. Fant has been bottom tier usage at TE..

        If anything they should have traded some of their 1st rounders to bad teams for their future first round picks.. thats how some of these bad teams end up with amazing draft positions.

        Thats actually how the PC JS era started.. we had 2 top 15 picks because we traded for Denvers first rounder the year later.. i think for that years 2 round pick.. its hindsight outlook to see that draft capital cant be wasted unless you hae a top tier offense or QB.. which seattle possess’ neither..

  14. Peanut

    Geno is a good guy and a good leader, but man how can one still think he is the long term guy? “Win now”, with what? With the amount of weapons on the offense these days, touchdowns should almost be free.

    A new offensive minded HC with a QBotF in 2024 and John Schneider being given full control of the draft, seems good to me. I will be that guy and say that most bad decisions made in the last 5 years has been because of Pete. A seahawks legend without at doubt, but time has come to really consider what steps to take.

    • Peter

      Didn’t John make “all,” the picks in the last drafts.

      We all like those picks roundly. Though the results say they are pretty far away from “crushing,” it. Apologies to folks who disagree. Until Seattle has the following or all three ideally the good drafts don’t produce good results:

      1. Qbotf

      2. Offensive identity. Middling results from JSN ( not his fault I don’t think) two great (?) Yet pedestrian results at RB.

      3. Defense identity. I keep hearing about this young team. Checks notes:

      Leonard Williams is old. Diggs is old. Wagner is old. Reed is old. Edwards Jr. Is old. Clark is old.

      Here’s the young names as I see it you can currently count on moving forward:

      Witherspoon….these two are it at this time.

      Then theres:

      -Brooks out of contract.
      -Hall I think will get there but heard a report about injury?
      -Nwossu will be closer to old than young when he gets back.
      -Woolen we assume is in a sophomore slump….?
      -Tre Brown…flashes
      -Taylor is playing like just a body out there.
      -Cam young? Hopefully something there but will he ever get good enough to be what Reed is.

      I like the names but it’s not coming together yet.

  15. UkAlex6674

    We ran into a buzz saw in Baltimore. We won’t be the last this year. I think this Ravens team is giving me vibes of the Eagles championship winning team a few years ago.

    A beat down. An ass whoopin’. We got our lunch money stolen, made some sandwiches instead, then they got eaten as well. A true 1980’s butt kicking.

    Whatever – it is all true. We were as poor as the Ravens were dominant.

    I know that up to more or less this point teams are trying to just stay in the play-off race while figuring themselves out, in readiness for the big November/December push. But that’s what worries me – who the hell are we?

    We are *still* in x year of a y year rebuild/reset whatever you want to label it. We have been saying this for a while. Yesterday, the Ravens ran for just shy of 300 yards in a league where there is less emphasis on the run than in my memory.

    Where has Peteball gone? We seem to be flailing around trying to replicate passing attacks around the league we simply can’t with Geno. Its great we have a stable of good WR (at least through 1-4). But not so great we can’t get the ball to them so much.

    On the other hand we have a serious 1-2 punch at RB, and I think Macintosh will be a good RB3 when ready. A lot of emphasis on here over recent years has been about complimentary football and closing the circle. We seem to be moving away from that more than ever.


    I know it isn’t the only answer, and there are a lot more problems.

    But who the hell are we? I know who the hell we were, not so long ago.

    We were the Ravens of yesterday……..

    • Big Mike

      You can’t run the ball if your o-line isn’t opening holes. The interior o-line is still low level, Cross ain’t all that great and the loss of Abe is obviously not being overcome.

      • Peter

        Always re-pete….play pre ordained starters like Haynes when Bradford unless injured has outplayed him this year.

        Where’s the TE’s?

        Father time is really better than Forsythe?

        I love the cope in the live stream “buh,buh,but.. Cross is better than the other tackles taken in that draft.” And what? That’s like saying something is better than a sharp stick in the eye.

  16. Gomhawk

    To win a Super Bowl with an average to above-average QB requires making 30-40+ million requires a dominance everywhere else. Multiple Hall-of-Famers with no holes dominance, e.g. the Rams and Stafford. I was even saying last year Geno’s upside is Stafford, which was a compliment, but now seems further away and still isn’t good enough without Aaron Donald and company.

    An average QB on a rookie deal makes it easier to build a team like that. I’m waiting for more teams to try this route or low-ball a decent qb who is a back up and ask them if they want to be a starter or not, like an Andy Dalton or if Baker was signed to a longer term deal at his current salary. If the 49ers didn’t waste so many assets on a QB bust and just let the draft come to them they woulda been a great case study for a stacked team with random low paid QB. Luckily for us they weren’t able to use the 1st round picks to be even better.

    Obviously the best deal is an elite QB. Ravens might be top of the AFC but could easily lose to a hot Burrows, Allen, or Mahomes.

    • A-ok

      I like that you mentioned Dalton. For the results we’re seeing this year from Geno, its right in line with what Dalton has done his entire career (if not a little worse). He threw the ball well against us, and with a decent OL and some weapons he could be an average to average+ QB bridge.

      The problem with the, “lets get a cheaper QB” club, is who is that?

      The only QBs under $8m who are FAs at end of season are: Jacoby Brissett, Tyrod Taylor, Sam Darnold, Jameis Winston, Mayfield, Minshew, Bridgewater, Mariota and Lock.

      Would you consider trading a late pick for Justin Fields or Davis Mills for one year of a cheap young QB?

      I’m just not sure what the options even are. If Geno plays like he did vs the Lions, I’d want to keep him at $30m, but he’s simply not, he’s regressing. I would keep Geno if he was at $8m or less.

      • Gomhawk

        I agree that Geno’s current play should be worth around 8 million.

        Among those, Dalton and Baker seem to fit the bill best. The Seahawks aren’t stacked enough to make it worthwhile. The 49ers might have done better with Dalton the last few years and extra first round picks to further stack the team tho. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t draft QB but it does mean they didn’t need to become desperate for a QB.

        I’d like to see a team win again with a Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer on a team friendly deal. Maybe the NFL has changed too much but I think it can happen. The QB middle class just takes up too much cap, gotta at least be consistent upper middle class lol. Who would that even be right now? The names coming to mind are still young and you’re hoping for improvement. Basically prime Eli Manning was consistently upper middle class, it’s a weird range of QBs right now.

    • Big Mike

      Allen? Nope. Their Super Bowl window has slammed shut at least for this year.

      • Peter

        There’s a stat out there about time it takes for coach and qb SB window to get open and stay open and that coach and qb combo are well past that at this time.

        • Gomhawk

          That super prevent D where they just let the Chiefs in FG range was indefensible and their biggest window. I’d still give Allen a punchers chance in the playoffs vs the Ravens, doesn’t mean they beat 3 good teams in a row though. Whereas I would not give Geno or a host of other QBs that punchers chance.

  17. Gomhawk

    Question for folks: I’m not on Seahawks Twitter but sometimes take a look at Field Gulls and this site. Do a lot of fans not realize the salary cap situation we’re in next year?

    Someone(s) gotta go, the Williams trade only further complicates the matter. Cut the safeties and take the huge dead money hit and find new safeties, trade DK (I would advise against), cut Geno, don’t resign any of the LBs, Lewis, Fant and co. Something has to give that would likely result in a step backwards. Cutting the safeties seems safest, but doesn’t seem like that’s enough money to keep the FAs by itself.

    • Peanut

      No. Seems to me people on Field Gulls and seahawks twitter is just focusing on this season and how good of a guy Geno is. Cap isn’t a thing, especially not future cap. “just resign the lads! Go out and sign a starter at DT!”

      Take the hit, cut Geno, Diggs and Adams. Move on. If someone gives Adams a huge contract, good for him. If not, maybe you can get him back on a cheaper deal. The project as failed. Good player, horrible contract.

      • Big Mike

        cut Geno, Diggs and Adams. Move on

        Unless Carroll goes, this won’t happen. I’d love to be wrong, am desperate to be wrong but……….

        • A-ok

          The contracts are setup for 2024 to be the year to deal with a lot of this.

          I know Rob keeps saying the cap is spent, but from what I can see, there’s $20m in dead money off the books in 2024 which puts us at $17m. If we move on/restructure/cut & re-sign Geno, Diggs, Dissly, Mone, Eskridge, and restructure Lockett/Metcalf, we are sitting at like $60m in cap.

          We don’t have a ton of high-priced FAs either.

          But even still, what do you want them to do with the cap? We have two big draft classes which will cost a lot to bring back in 2 and 3 years from now. If you spend all the cap on mega deals you make that harder. Almost all of our biggest contracts are expiring by that time.

          In one hand you want them to give up now, fire the coach and GM, but then you want cap space? I don’t get it.

          • Jeff

            The cap situation isn’t all that simple.

            We have $6 million in *effective* cap space, which is what’s left over after filling out the roster as cheaply as possible. We have several notable free agents next year that will need to be taken care of, including:

            * Leonard Williams (lol)
            * Bobby Wagner
            * Jordyn Brooks
            * Damien Lewis
            * Phil Haynes
            * Frank Clark
            * Noah Fant
            * Evan Brown
            * Darrell Taylor

            So right away we have a problem; $7 million is *not* remotely enough to sign even a third of those guys.

            The options for restructures are actually pretty thin. You can get some relief from DK Metcalf’s contract (maybe $10 million) but after that you’re looking at either Tyler Lockett (who is aging) or Jamal Adams (from whom we have to move on).

            Cutting Quandre and Jamal can free up up $16 million (or $26 million of Jamal is a post June-1 move). Quandre is in the last year of his deal so you can’t really save money by extending him (he’s old, an extension would only be for maybe two years). You could try to get Jamal to take a pay cut, but good luck.

            As it stands, the team is going to get substantially worse in free agency next year. We will need to once again lean heavily on the draft and oops we just traded away our second round pick.

            • A-ok

              Sure, but as I said, all of that can bring us to $60m. If the effective cap is really just -$10m, then fine, $50m.

              I don’t see how that is so bad. I also don’t feel like any of this is a stretch. The numbers suggest to me it was planned/re-configured to line up for 2024 to be a change year in contracts.

              I also don’t think many of those FAs will command big contracts, nor would we need to re-sign half of them.

              If Leonard Williams walks, that will be disappointing for sure. I would have preferred that they negotiate an extension as part of the trade if they were giving up a 2nd rounder. I’d be ok with that for 2-3 years for a solid IDL. But if he walks, it’s just bad all around.

          • Rob Staton

            I know Rob keeps saying the cap is spent, but from what I can see, there’s $20m in dead money off the books in 2024 which puts us at $17m

            Over the cap has already accounted for this and they have the Seahawks with $17m but you are not taking into account that millions has to be saved for your draft class etc. which is why OTC calculates ‘effective cap space’ (how much you ACTUALLY have to spend). And that number is $6m. The Seahawks currently have $6m to play with. That is the situation.

            • Ty the Guy

              This game was nail in coffin for Jamal Adams. Quandre does not look the same. You have Love and Coby Bryant who can probably play just as well at this point.

              How much savings are the two safeties alone? Then Geno?

            • A-ok

              Ya but that’s just -$10m. If we make the cuts/changes I listed we’re at $60m, so knock $-10m off and we’re at $50m.

              That’s also without cutting Adams. I think we should probably keep him for one more season unless he’s performing worse than what a replacement would do.

              We can sign a few vets like we always do, make one or two good signings (I love these 2 year contracts they gave to Reed and Love) and then hopefully draft a new QB.

              I think it’s looking pretty good.

              • AlaskaHawk

                Only if the Seahawks follow your plan and cut the three players mentioned. But here’s the problem, we had this discussion last year and none of those players got cut. So management has already said NO once.

              • Rob Staton

                You didn’t detail any cuts or changes. You just listed a bunch of names A-ok and plucked a figure out of the sky.

              • Gomhawk

                That’s kinda what I’m getting at: cutting Geno is key to free up that money, Diggs helps too. But by himself doesn’t bring back key FAs like Lewis and the LBs. Cutting Dissly leaves is no TEs. So if we keep Geno we’re looking at a very different team next year in which Geno has fewer weapons/protection and a likely step back on D.

            • 805Hawk

              I wish OTC would put the effective cap space on their mobile site. You can’t seem to see it unless you log on to a laptop/desktop. It would alleviate a lot of confusion since 90% of people look at their site on their phones.

              • cha

                On my iPhone if I flip it to the Landscape view it shows up. (yes I agree it is annoying)

  18. L80

    I don’t want to hear PC get on the radio and defend the play of Smith. It’s painfully easy to see that he has a pretty pass (AT TIMES)…. the other times he looks like a kid in the cereal aisle at the grocery store and by the time he makes a decision it’s the WRONG one.

    Another year of him and I’ll be taking an even bigger vacation from football.

    This team reminds me of the great looking gal at the bar who just can’t get it all together.

    A Pretty MESS.

  19. Curt

    I keep watching this offense commit 3 and outs. Rob do you keep track of this stat?
    Offense commiting 3 and outs vs. Defense creating 3 and outs.

  20. KHammarling

    You’re spot on point here Rob. It’s Year 2 of a rebuild, and the major issues seem to stem from PC(JS) unwillingness to recognise/accept this. But it also has to be recognized that even a 7 win season will keep him employed, 9+ will keep him happy and the team in playoff contention, making it hard to really pressure and demand more. I keep my fingers crossed the off-season brings something more assertive/aggressive in a rebuild – a sizable change in coaching staff (especially whoever is responsible for tackling, and Waldron) and honesty to cut bad contracts (there are a number of players to move on from that will create enough Cap to re-sign the majority of FA’s, if JS/PC are willing to cut the loyalty bullsh*t and eat an above average level of dead money).
    I stand by this team could be ready to call themselves contenders as early as next season, if the assertive moves are made. 2025 for sure. I just fear the malaise creeping in that feels like 2017-2021 of being close at 9/10 regular season wins and a one game playoff loss.

  21. geoff u

    It’s all very simple and it’s always beem simple in the NFL. I keep going back to this but make no mistake, we ARE one player away from being a Super Bowl contending team, and that player just so happens to play the quarterback positon. Guess what? Same is true for every team without a franchise quarterback, that’s why the Jets went all in on Rodgers. They’re 4-3. Imagine them with him? It doesn’t guarantee you Super Bowls, you are still competing with other teams with franchise QBs, but it is by far your best shot.

    “You either have a franchise quarterback or you’re looking for one.” End of story. And the team needs to be doing everything it can to get us one. The sad part is the front office doesn’t seem to realize this, doesn’t appar all that concerned with finding one, and traded away much needed ammunition in next year’s draft to get one. For what? The delusion that a DT would put us over the top? 300 rushing yards WITH Lenard Williams. He will not give us even one extra win this year.

    • A-ok

      I am wondering what happened between the draft and now though because they said they were acquiring picks to give flexibility to move in the draft in 2024. I am wondering if Ewers injury has really shifted their perspective on the 2024 draft, or if they don’t think there’s any major 1st round-graded QBs they’ll have to trade up for.

      If not Geno next year then who? Do you want them to trial Lock this year to see? Look for a well aged vet like Andy Dalton? Trade a late pick for a young kid like Fields or Davis Mills?

      Obviously, we want to draft the future either way, but what about the interim?

      • UkAlex6674

        Agree to a point Geoff for sure.

        But even a franchise QB needs other components around him. He isn’t the magic bullet.

        I think Seattle is trying to set it up so that an incoming rookie QB next year has the best shot with the foundation around him.

        And that then maximises the value of rookie QB contract.

      • Romeo A57

        Rob had Kenny Pickett rated as a 3rd Round QB in in 2021. The “Stealers” just lost Big Ben and didn’t have anything close to a viable starting QB on their roster. They over drafted him in Round 1. Pickett has started 21 games. He has 13 TDs, 13 Ints a Passer Rating under 80.

        If Geno keeps playing this badly, could Seattle go into the 2024 Draft having to take the best QB available in round 1 even if they have a much lower grade on this QB? Or would you rarherbtry to sign a Mayfield type for 5M and roll with that?

      • geoff u

        In the interm doesn’t matter, you’re not going anywhere close to a Super Bowl anyway. Ahlers can go out there and throw interceptions and go three and out on nearly every drive and score 3 points just as easily as Geno, for 30 million less. Hell, if they really wanted to win now they’d have gone after Aaron Rodgers.

        But what you don’t do is give up future draft capital for a rental. We don’t know what the 2024 draft will look like yet and banking on Ewers who could taken in the top or 5 if he had a great year is a shit plan anyway. John was out of the loop and completely obvious to the Bryce Young trade. He could’ve thrown in DK and matched the Carolina deal and we’d have CJ Stroud throwing for 470 yds. But we weren’t even in the conversation because this team seems to think wallowing in mediocrity is how you win now. There’s some serious discontent and ability self evaluate going on here. And apparently no real plan.

        • geoff u

          Oblivious, not obvious.

          • Big Mike

            But wouldn’t trading up for Stroud be an admission that you and you’re program/approach aren’t the main reason for success? Wouldn’t it mean admitting the QB position is at least as important as the HC/GM?

            • Peter

              Exactly. Then you’d have to stop reading your press clippings about how qb friendly your system is and how you “covered,” up the flaws of the former qb…..

            • A-ok

              I can’t think of a single mortgage the future trade that has actually worked out. And almost all were done with poor teams who were likely to offer higher future picks than what Seattle had.

            • geoff u

              If that is their line of thinking then we are seriously screwed, and maybe that’s why we’ve been spinning our wheels for so long now. I’m not sure I believe that, because apparently we were trying to get Allen or Mahomes, but how serious I don’t know. Clearly not enough to get the job done. And giving up a 2nd next year means perhaps they aren’t serious in 2024 either.

              I do think this game may have been a wake up call on what a mistake the Williams trade was and that without a top quarterback this is our ceiling, this is who we are, but I’m not holding my breath. Old habits die hard.

              I will take a franchise QB over a head coach any day of the week and seventeen times on Sunday. Seeing Bellichick post Brady, and Carroll post Wilson, has cemented my thinking. I also think it’s no coincidence Sean Payton moved on a year after Brees retired.

  22. Big Mike

    I’m worn out on this team.

    I’m worn out from watching a team with 2 quality RBs not be able to run the ball cuz they keep trying to band-aid the interior o-line and play 41 year olds at RT and their high draft pick at LT be average at best.

    I’m worn out watching a career backup QB fail way more often than he succeeds while the FO doesn’t draft a QB in an effort to find a franchise level guy at the position.

    I’m worn out watching grossly overpaid Safeties play at a level no better than mediocre and often worse while taking up an obscene portion of the salary cap after getting their contracts reworked meaning it’s quite possible/likely they’ll be back again next season.

    I’m worn out listening to how the Seahawks are going to be the bully and then watching a true bully team pants them, steal their lunch money and laugh in their face by putting in their backup QB for the entire 4th quarter.

    I’m worn out from watching the same problems stopping the run never be repaired. for at least 3 years in a row now.

    Mostly I’m worn out from watching PCJS never learn from the mistakes they’ve made mortgaging the future for a quick fix and do it yet again and again and again and………

    Mostly, I’m worn out from Pete Carroll and his failures the last 7-8 years likely stemming from a desperate attempt to try to win one more championship and not be remembered in part as the guy that blew 49. It’s time to move on from his ego, his failings and his treating this team as his private playground.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    • Troy

      I am so sick of Adams and Diggs. $40+ million for nothing other than missed takes, big plays allowed and social media posts.

      • A-ok

        Imagine being tired of a team that has had one losing season in 12 years…

        • BK26

          Imagine being nothing more than “fine” over that time period. Imagine not holding people accountable. Imagine settling.

          • A-ok

            If 10+ win seasons and making the playoffs is only “fine” I don’t know what to tell you. You’re a fan of the wrong sport.

            The team turned over their entire roster, and traded their Franchise QB because they acknowledged they were at the end of that era and needed to move into a new one. And right now we’re looking for the next QBotf.

            How is that settling, and not showing accountability?

            • BK26

              Thinking that 10 wins and first round exits is good enough is settling. If you think that’s ok, then maybe sports aren’t for you.

              They traded Russ because there was a clash with him and Pete. They currently think that they have their quarterback. They have abused the position since drafting Russ.

              They did change their strategy and focus on the draft. But the team is still crippled by inexcusable contracts, which they have doubled down on with the restructures. Then they trade for a a guy for only 10 games, and gave up picks. Which ruins the drafting strategy. Within 6 days, they broke their plan and will have to pay for it.

              Imagine someone telling you how you should root for your team….

              • A-ok

                The contracts were pushed. Why cut them to then have to replace them at nearly the same cost? Dead cap + new contract = nearly the same outcome.

                They shifted the cap to 2024, where its much more cost effective to cut the remaining contracts from the 2020 season. Adams being the one I would likely keep one more season unless he’s playing worse than average, or a lot of cheap safeties hit the market.

                Thats it. DK was paid what he was showing during Wilson era, and Lockett is worth every penny but could easily be restructured.

                Most new FA contracts have an out in either 2024 or 2025 so they didn’t bog down at all.

            • Peter

              Where are the 10 win seasons?

              Turned over the roster? THE best player on the team, full stop, is a 30+ year old WR that’s been here forever. The defense is being led by Reed because in 14 draft cycles they can’t find even two DT’s worth anything so they brought back the one guy they got right, Wagner because they can’t find a LB to man the middle, Dissly who’s been here forever, safeties that are extended in perpetuity instead of cut. Of course the roster churns that’s the NFL. But I wouldn’t say they’ve turned it over. They’ve changed the names.

              This team, our team, was held together by a guy most fans grew to hate. The roster was churned with some very good results. By the guys that blew it the first time. And now we sit and hope that two guys who have never proved they can develop the most important position in the sport are going to find that this draft in what is shaping up to be a goofy draft class.

              Before people “at” me about the former qb…he was inarguably the second best qb after Luck, playing in a pro offense, with a big old oline, and was deadly accurate prior to getting here.

              After hamstringing their ability to move up w/o mortgaging future picks ( I’m not against btw).

              • A-ok

                70% of the team is gone from just 3 years ago… What else qualifies as a turnover? OC and DC gone (and could be again in 2024)

                And of those players, half of them could be gone in 2024, so 90% of the team turned over.

                • Peter

                  See below.

                  That’s what happens to every team.

                  Turned over the defense from last year to go from terrible to middling…actually a positive.

                  Turned over the center, Turned over the recievers with two probably better ones….for worse outcomes than last year.

        • Big Mike

          Imagine having the guts to actually tear it down and rebuild with the risk of failure always in the picture rather than being content with being on the fringes of the playoffs and never getting to even an NFCCG in what will soon be 9 years. Imagine reaching for the brass ring rather than being content with buying a pot metal piece of finger jewelry.

          • A-ok

            And how have they not literally already done that? They have only 17 players left from the 12-4 2020 season.

            Dickson and Myers, a P and K
            Wagner and Reed, who left and came back
            5 Rookies- Lewis, Brooks, Parkinson, Dallas, Taylor

            So really, we have only 6 players who were not unloaded. Of those 6, Diggs, Dissly and Mone are at the end of backloaded contracts and could easily be let go in 2024, Geno we already know. Metcalf and Lockett could be renegotiated/extended, cut or traded at a reasonable dead cap hit.

            And they did it in 2 years while trading the franchise QB. That nearly a 100% turnover, and trading your franchise QB is as high risk as it gets, next to mortgaging the future on the #1 pick which as far as I can tell has never worked out.

            • Big Mike

              This will be the 10th season on a row without even making it to a conference championship game let alone the Super Bowl.
              Do you remember who the wild card teams were 5 years ago, 7 years ago? Only a team’s fan base remembers that they made it to the wild card round I have a decade or a decade later.

              You do you as a fan I’ll do me. If you’re content with the way things are and just one losing season in 12 years, that’s great for you. I want a new regime and I’m willing to risk failure to try and get to the Super Bowl because this regime is not going to get us there. That much to me has become abundantly clear.

              • Peter

                Turnover, schmurnover…

                They’ve been here 14 years. Average career 3.5 years or there abouts. That’s 4 full times to roll over the roster. Them doing the inevitable doesn’t mean anything…..

                Get me a team that stacks up to or bests any of the gears in any single department.


                Can we run harder.

                Can we hit harder.

                Are we putting on a show in the air.

                Can we get after the other qb.

                Football is kind of basic in this way.

              • A-ok

                I think fans underestimate the significance of continuity, and the difficulty of replacing a franchise QB.

                Outside of Mahomes, has any trade that mortgaged a future 1st and 2nd(or more) actually yielded a QB that won a Superbowl? Like… ever?

                I can’t think of one. Most of them flop or get traded.

                I would also argue it makes more sense to build the team then draft a QB. How often do young QBs thrive on bad teams? Herbert is incredible but the Chargers are still awful. You’re just trading one form of going nowhere for another.

                • BK26

                  You. Still. Need. A. Top. Quarterback. That is why you keep trying until you get your guy.

                  If you are a good team then you have to move to get your guy. You do not win without that guy. By your logic, if something is hard to do, we just don’t do it?

                  What is seriously happening this week? Are we just thinking that fans are getting too extreme one way or another? We are getting too bad and can’t have that. People are wanting to win too much and we can’t do that either.

                  • A-ok

                    Mortgaging the future has never worked. Trading up does and costs way less and is way less high risk, but it requires patience, and two willing participants.

                    I am all for trading up from 20 whatever if our guy is there at 10, and paying a future 1st and 3rd. I am not in favour of sending Two high 1sts, Two high 2nds and a top WR like the Panthers did for the #1 pick.

                    And I also think it’s far better to trade up for a QB when you have a strong roster, and then sit him for a year. Stability is key for young QBs, every flop has voiced this exact thing. Coach carousel ruins QBs.

                    We are better situated to draft a QB and benefit, if we have the team behind him, and we have the organizational stability.

            • Group Captain Mandrake

              They turned over the roster. Great. But did turning it over make it better? I’d say no. Now they have overpaid guys like Jamal Adams, Will Dissly and Quandre Diggs hamstringing the ability to build an effective roster.

        • Peter

          You can’t imagine how going on seven years of goofy picks, bad trades, the same listless defense for the same results with now the added twist that our offense sucks wouldn’t make fans want something else?

        • RKM-LouCityHawk

          Imagine not embracing mediocrity
          It’s easy if you try
          Imagine not spending $50m on 3 safeties
          It isn’t hard to do

          Imagine seeing systemic problems…taking years to solve

          And youuuuuuuuu

          You may say, I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one…

        • RMK-LouCityHawk

          Imagine not embracing mediocrity
          It’s easy if you try

          Imagine not spending $50m on 3 safeties
          It isn’t hard to do

          Imagine seeing systemic problems…taking years to solve

          And youuuuuuuuu

          You may say, I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one…

          • Big Mike

            I hope some day they’ll join us
            And the Seahawks will be number 1

    • RMK-LouCityHawk

      You are not alone in feeling fatigued, and I think those numbers are growing.

      I got to spend a very nice day in Bloomington, IN on Saturday and spent time with some dear old friends. One of these happened to be a fan of another team who picked up the Seahawks as a second team while he was my roommate. He has been to more games in Seattle than I have in the past decade.

      He is usually a rah rah fan, he just wanted RW and PC to get along. He remembers me from the mid-90s, he remembers the dark days. He is fatigued.

      More than anything, he feels like the team is stuck in a stasis of mediocrity.

      Everyone in this group went to IU, and we all endured what felt like 20 years in the desert between Coach Knight and Coach Woodson. The feelings we shared are not unfamiliar to me now. The arguments against change feel recycled, heck, we even have one guy who still says we should have stuck with Kelvin Sampson.

      The Seahawks had an identity under Holmgren, PC has become the identity of the current Seahawks, that has become a problem.

      2024 has been set up as almost a perfect year to hit the reset button, multiple commenters are now noting that the Seahawks could enter 2025 with a good cap, a QBotF, and a wealth of young talent. What a 2024 2nd rounder could add to that roster? We will all know come 2025.

    • Peter

      When they put in their back up in a normal world with a normal ownership heads would have started to roll as of now pacific time.

      That was one of the most demonstrably evident moves that we are no where close I’ve seen a team do to Seattle in forever.

      • Sea Mode


  23. Chavac

    My question is just how long is the leash on Geno? If he puts up another game or two like this does he still finish the season as the starter? It would take a lot of mea culpa to bench your 30m starting QB who you extended just over a year ago, especially because he is (was) such a feel good story that they’re proud of. I’m starting to get nervous that even if they draft a QB this year they’ll have no option but to hold on to Geno because they won’t want to rush a rookie, effectively punting next year too.

    • A-ok

      I think we need to see Lock if we lose the next two games. If Lock can’t turn it around either, then I start looking at the OC, not because Lock is great but because they knew what they had entering the season and couldn’t get it done.

      I think if they replace the OC, QB is wide open.

      If they keep him, Lock might be worth keeping if he’s decent.

      But outside of that, as I asked in another reply…if not Geno/Lock next year then who? Look for a well aged vet like Andy Dalton? Trade a late pick for a young kid like Fields or Davis Mills? This is in addition to drafting someone.

    • geoff u

      If he does poorly against Washington, turns the ball over more, and we lose, I think there’s a possibility Lock starts against LA.

      I suspect he’ll have an ok game, then when we hit the murderers row of our schedule it’s going to take back to back blowouts.

      However, I’m not certain Pete will actually make the move, depends on how good they actually think Lock is. I really don’t think he’s all that good, but he should be given a shot, at least to find out if he’s good enough to start next year while we coach up a rookie (and let Geno walk). We’ll never know till he gets a chance.

    • DC1234

      I dont see Pete benching Geno anytime soon. Even if he struggles against the Commanders and Rams. Pete will want Geno against Niners,Cowboys, Niners, Eagles. He wouldn’t want Lock to face those elite defenses. And Pete will feel those 4 games are for the season.

      The only chance Lock starts is if the Seahawks are eliminated from playoff contention. Maybe he gets a start against Cardinels at week 18.

      BTW, I kind of wish Pete sat Geno down the rest of the game after he got hurt against the Giants. Lock had a good drive and obviously they would not lose that game with Lock. Make sure Geno was ok. Geno doesnt look as mobile/quick after that game. I felt Geno rushed back in the game. I bet he didnt want to lose his starting job.

      It reminds me of when Russ rushed back from his finger injury and played like crap for a few games. Fans were chanting “Geno, Geno.” Maybe Russ felt threatened.

      If Lock plays well, there will be the same issue with Geno and Lock.

  24. Cambs

    This really is exactly why to pay up for QB in the draft trade market when you’re positioned close enough to make the move. Rob said on the stream that Stroud wasn’t available to them — but that’s not the case. 1.01 was available for trade before the draft.

    The price was high, iron even, but when you put the names to the deal it doesn’t seem so much after all.

    To mirror the Chicago-Carolina trade … to acquire CJ Stroud, would you give Witherspoon, DK Metcalf, (either of JSN or a future first), (any one — or even all three — of Hall, Charbonnet, or Leonard Williams)? If Chicago demanded yet another pick on top of that haul, would it have been worth it? Is the reason why not that the roster from 2 to 53 would be a bit weaker in 2023 specifically?

    The fact that the Seahawks will make big-balls moves for the likes of Jamal Adams and Leonard Williams but not for a franchise QB is so very Pete and John. Stroud was even a dang Seahawks fan.

    • geoff u

      1000%, but the sad part is John was even in on the conversation so even that close, sitting at 5, it never crossed their mind. Ridiculous.

      Pick No. 1 (3000 draft points)

      Carolina gave up:

      pick No. 9 (1350)
      pick No. 61 (292)
      a first-round pick in 2024 (~500)
      a second-round pick in 2025 (~75)
      WR DJ Moore (and 2217 total draft points)

      Seattle could’ve given up

      pick No. 5 (1700)
      a first-round pick in 2024 (~500)
      a second-round pick in 2025 (~75)
      WR DK Metcalf (and 2275 total draft points)


      pick No. 5 (1700)
      pick No. 20 (850)
      WR DK Metcalf (and 2550 total draft points)


      pick No. 5 (1700)
      pick No. 37 (530)
      pick No. 52 (380)
      WR DK Metcalf (and total 2610 draft points)

      For a franchise QB that doesn’t seem that steep to me…people don’t realize how valuable that #5 pick is vs the #9 pick.

      • RMK-LouCityHawk

        These are good points, but even consider that Chicago may have accepted some assets other than DK (gladly)

        Fant? Taylor? Jackson? Diggs? Prez? There is a lot of surplussage that would have been worth jettisoning for that first pick.

        • geoff u

          I use DK because presumably they wanted a #1 receiver to pair with Fields and it’s an easy comp for my calcs. If they wanted other players, if I’m the GM, anything’s on the table for a franchise QB. Hell, they can take Pete Carroll (blasphemy, I know)

      • Peter

        Recent goofy talking points:

        You can’t find a player as talented as Williams in this draft.

        Second round picks don’t matter.

        We’ll trade out if the first for a second rounder.

        You make a good point with the draft calculus. Last year was the easiest shot at controlling the draft as we’ve had in years. I agree with Rob that Houston was never going to trade. But five to one would have sting less than nine to one.

        This year we hope the guy is magically sitting there at pick #22. Or I suppose repeat the trick with Wilson.

      • A-ok

        I don’t think the bears would have taken the #5 and fewer picks over the Panthers offer. Not to mention the estimated value of the future picks.

        If the season ended today the bears have two top 5 picks, and still picked in the top 10, AND got better value 2nd rounders AND still got a #1 WR.

        The Seahawks couldn’t have beat that trade.

        And they won’t be able to this year either.

        Our best bet is to replicate the Mahomes or Allen moves. They were way less high-risk, and ultimately way more successful.

        Move up in the first round for a QB and pay at most an extra 1st and a 3rd.

        • geoff u

          Then we sweeten the pot. For a franchise QB, anything’s on the table. But really, the main point is not only did John Schneider not even try to negotiate something, he didn’t even have a clue it was going on until after the trade was made. That is a horrible, horrible look for a GM. It means either he’s out of the loop or he told everyone he wasn’t interested in trading up, and thus not interested in a QB. And maybe that’s why we passed on Levis twice, which would be really disheartening.

          • A-ok

            If you would be willing to give up more than the Panthers, you’re desperate, and thats beyond high risk, thats downright degenerate-level gambling! hahah

            It would look bad to everyone, and cost you your job if he played like Young is playing right now (which isn’t even that bad).

            I think passing on that is good, and becomes even better if they get their guy in 2024, or at worst, 2025.

            • geoff u

              Ah yes, the ol “you can always get your guy next year”….while picking in the 20s. Easy peasy, I don’t know why all the franchise deficient QB teams don’t just do that.

        • Cambs

          There’s such a thing as penny-wise and pound-foolish. You can let the seasons roll by until you find the perfectly priced trade. QB is basically a have and have-not situation and there’s nearly no price you shouldn’t be willing to pay to graduate from the one state of affairs to the other … draft and free agency are set up to help you rebound even if you have to gut the rest of your roster in the process.

          It also wasn’t a given at the time of the trade-down that the Panthers would stink like this … the initial betting odds had them picking Stroud lol. Plus their division is so shaky. Hit on QB and they’re probably in the mix despite their many deficiencies. It’s possible that the Bears would have valued Carolina’s future first higher than Seattle’s as a mystery box in March 2023, but they were madmen if they were sharpshooting it as a top-5 pick.

          Also possible that if it were Seattle that made this move and then picked the wrong QB, that they’d be in Carolina’s situation instead (defense is bad, Lockett’s your only weapon …). Which would obviously be aggravating but from a process perspective, that’s also fine … the mere coin-flip shot on hitting a transformative QB is also worth the price, and if the coin comes up tails then you accept the suck and you come back in a future draft and take your next shot on Dante Moore or Dylan Raiola or whomever.

          I guess reasonable people can prefer the path that we’re on now, but as a fan who’s been there with the Frieszes and the Kitnas, QB purgatory — which seems like it’ll be the tale of the Hawks’ 2020s — seems much the worse to me. Our next opponent, the Commanders, have been a great illustration of that scenario ever since the Hogs were put out to pasture. (… they also took the now-dumped Chase Young ahead of Tua and Herbert in that draft, since they were set at QB with Alex Smith.)

          • geoff u

            Well said. With Schneider’s affinity for traits, I find it hard to believe we’d have picked Young. It would’ve been Stroud or Richardson (and clearly not Levis).

    • Scot04

      Personally I would have rather just taken Levis instead of JSN at pick #20.
      I didn’t think there was any chance he’d be there at #20 for us, so was just sitting and hoping that Levis would be on our card.
      Evidently our front office felt JSN was the better player.
      I was fine with not trading up, and understood the reasoning not to spend the extra assets. Mostly because of where I viewed our roster was.
      This is also why I definitely wasn’t a fan of a 2nd and 5th on LW.

  25. BK26

    Dear God, the excuses.

    “It’s an AFC team so it’s a wash.”
    “It’s just one game.”
    “They phoned it in so it wasn’t that bad (leading to even worse problems then.”
    “It’s the line, the running backs, the defense, Lock’s fault, the phase of the moon last night.”

    I’ve seen people honestly get offended at the negativity and someone said how dare someone shot on his team.

    This is as pathetic as the game yesterday. Maybe even more. This is a culture of a team’s fandom.

    • Troy

      When a team gets dominated like our Hawks did yesterday, bring on the negativity. Rebuilding, contender, whatever – what I witnessed yesterday was pathetic. And they should be called out for it.

      • BK26

        Exactly. Two games this year were embarrassing. Rams and yesterday. It’s not that we lost, it’s that we didn’t deserve to be on the field. When is there going to be accountability? (I know the answer, but we are literally the only team in the NFL where the high brass gets a complete free pass).

        • UkAlex6674

          Exactly this BK.

          We didn’t deserve to be on the field at all with those teams.

          I don’t normally bubble up on here. But Sunday has really ripped my guts out.

          Not taking anything away from Baltimore. They were excellent (again).

          But we were equal in being crap.

        • DC1234

          Part of the problem is the Seattle media is too soft. To me they avoid the tough questions. Feels like they prefer to be buddy, buddy with Pete and John. Scared to offend their team.

          Maybe seattle as a whole just dont like confrontation/awkardness. I lived in seattle all my life (born and raised). The media personality is similar to most seattle people.

          After a game like this, please ask tough questions. Make them accountable. But I doubt it.

    • Rob Staton


    • Peter

      A take away from hawks-verse for me is that after a last minute win against the fighting PJ Walkers a lot of talking heads freed up their schedules to strut about dark horse superbowl contenders.

      After yesterday….literal 18 minute acknowledgements that we sucked and they didn’t want to see the negativity.

      There’s already a quiet mutiny on the decks of the SS Hawkblogger when Simmons says in the politest manner that maybe, just maybe we should be talking about not resigning Geno next year.

  26. Craig

    I was annoyed that Lock wasn’t put in for the last 10 minutes. The game was over. Get him some reps. Signal to Geno that the job isn’t his regardless of play quality. Maybe Lock pushes the ball downfield and makes some plays with his legs. This team is going nowhere with Geno so why not? Always compete.

  27. Ty the Guy

    They ran the ball 13 times again. (Not counting Geno)

    Time of Possession: BAL = 40:04, SEA = 19:56

    First Downs = BAL = 29, SEA = 6

    I have so much respect for PC/JS. But the above stats look too much like when Russ was trying to cook. That threw the whole team off balance.

    • Ty the Guy

      Pete isn’t even establishing his core philosophy of building off of the run.

      We thrive on play action. Can’t set that up if you don’t run the football.

      Against the rest of their schedule they MUST establish the run, if they want to sniff the playoffs.

      As for the future: Rob is spot on. I tried to fight it. Tried to convince myself LW would be the piece they needed to win by playing old school Seahawks football. Run hard and hard defense. That does not work with how this team is operating.

  28. Rob Staton

    Mike Tanner:

    “The Seahawks are good enough to scratch out late-game wins over the Lions or Browns and earn a Wild-Card berth. They aren’t good enough to beat a Super Bowl contender that’s playing to its capabilities.

    The problem becomes obvious when you study the Seahawks roster. Their best overall players are the just-acquired Leonard Williams and one-foot-in-Canton Bobby Wagner. Who can the Seahawks turn to when they need to turn a game around? Geno? The 31-year old version of Tyler Lockett? Jamal Adams? A Super Bowl team needs two or three take-over-the-game type players. The division-rival 49ers have five or six. The Seahawks may have zero.”

    • Ty the Guy

      Hawks have weapons. Geno was never more than a point guard trying to be Kobe Bryant. Never been a guy who could lead a comeback. He can maintain. “Bridge.”

      Should have taken a chance on Levis…….

    • Hawkdawg

      He makes good points. Although I’ll take a “31-year-old Tyler Lockett” on my team any day of the week. And I think Witherspoon will turn out to be one of those rare difference makers.

  29. RMK-LouCityHawk

    I expected a loss, I got very Tampa 2022 vibes going into this game, it was very Tampa 2022 in how it felt.

    Is one loss the end of the world? No.

    Rob strikes the right tone of moderation. This loss is a data point that is useful as a benchmark to see where this team is against one of the real Super Bowl contenders. I rate the ‘real’ contenders as AFC teams only, until proven otherwise I will posit that the teams I’m about to name would have near undefeated records if given the SEA early schedule: KC, BAL, JAX, BUF, & CIN in that order. I would back (and so would Vegas) every team on that list against SF/PHL 7/10 times.

    * Bonus game for the kiddos at home: what do those 5 AFC teams have in common?

    ** Bonus game for the adults: aside from the obvious similarity, what is the other commonality/limiting factor for overall success?

    Let’s make a trade, let’s trade the LAC for the Seahawks. Not even a homer would be talking Super Bowl, and only a glass-half full optimist would opine this as a playoff team. I’d guess the Hawks would be 4-3 looking at a tough crucial Monday night game against a Jets team with an Elite defense. The Chargers I’d wager at 5-3, mainly because Staley is an awful coach, but Herbert would be shredding some teams. If the 4-3 Seahawks traded for L/W and gave up a 2nd rounder, the fans would be livid, the Chargers in the NFC though? Looks wide open.

    That mental exercise might help get you to seeing the perspective of a PC, who perhaps sees the chance to go out in at least a blaze of glory. One last ride with BWagz before heading to that great big pontificator payday. The 9ers in the AFC? Woof. At least they’d get another high pick. The Eagles? Hurts would help them stay in the hunt, but they are not at the same level as last season. Houston would be a contender in the NFC, let that sink in.

    The lessons from Baltimore 2023 might take some time to sink in.

    Why would anyone give Taylor more than 50% of snaps against Baltimore? Why is Frank Clark so high? I got very frustrated in comment sections last year trying to point out that the 9ers were whipping us in the run game by just running at Taylor, that was their plan, over and over. It didn’t matter what else happened, Taylor is that big of a liability. Drafting Taylor almost broke me as a fan, Eskridge nearly tipped the scales, RW’s departure brought me back. Taylor shouldn’t have even been active for that game, and he saw the field on more than 50% of snaps. Yup, your run defense is going to suck as a result. Oh, and your pass rush will be largely ineffective as well.

    * for anyone wondering, an Edge like Taylor places enormous stress on the rest of the defense, on the DT to try and disrupt, on the LB to try and shade or accommodate, on the secondary to support and tackle, it has a cascading effect.

    Edge depth has to be continually addressed, and there are Edge rushers I like in this next draft, maybe not first rounders, but the sort you could pick up in the 2nd or 5th…which brings us back to L/W. The DLine and LB both need refreshes, expensive veterans aren’t the answers we are looking for, again, 2nd and 5th rounders would be nice for depth.

    The issue at Safety has been hashed and rehashed here, I view this as a market error, I view the reworking of the contracts as an obvious move to get right with the market following the 2024 season. I’m guessing that safety would be another position that a 2nd and 5th would have helped with.

    For my money the defensive scheming has been better in 2023, but the use of players has not been. It is unclear the extent to which PC and CH have intersection here, but playing Taylor that many snaps against the Ravens suggests that someone needs to reconsider their role.

    * I actually felt bad for Taylor at points on Sunday, he looked so lost and helpless, it would have been a kindness to sit him.

    The issues on offense run deep and it feels like the men of Spider-Man pointing the finger at himself.

    Do the issues start and end with Geno? Maybe. Tennessee looked dysfunctional as all get out pre-Levis, now suddenly looks feisty. CIN looked bad while Burrow as ailing, now looks good. MIN was dismissed after losing Cousins, but Dobbs did ok. All of those data points beg the question: is it Geno or Waldron? Both? Neither – it’s the injured OLine dummy, whatchagonnadoNFLinjurieshappensosadonrothenextonewhenisLucasdueback?

    I’m tempted to say 1) Geno 2) Waldron 3) the offense is still rebuilding.

    Take those in reverse, the running game needed Bradford badly, it needed Lucas, it needed another draft, say one deep in options that would benefit from having a 2nd and 5th. The OLine needs to be stacked, injuries happen. The TE group is nice, but LaPorta is nicer – I had an underrated argument somewhere advocating that Fant needed to be moved and LaPorta was the priority in the draft.

    * list of AFC contenders, note that elite TE are on some of the top teams.

    Waldron, sometimes you look like a genius, other times a fool. What. Is. Up? PC is mad at you following BAL, suggests that this was a lot of your game plan. Geno’s audibles seemed to always backfire. Ben Johnson just got shut down by MacDonald’s crew, so should we just bow down to the Golden Arches? My take is that this game plan was a stinker, and we’ve seen a lot of stinkers, and we’ve seen a lot of slow adjustments. I’m throwing half blame at Waldron because PC o-coordinators have taken unwieldy amounts of blame. But Shane, I don’t think I want you in 2024 or beyond, even as much as I’m likening Dickerson.

    Geno. Let’s just say, the constant excuses are getting old. He is constantly under pressure, his receiver ran the wrong route, the scheme was bad, the sun got in his eyes, whaddaboutDKspenalties, whaddaboutdaDefense… how about this, I think Joe Burrow does a hell of a lot better job against the Ravens than Geno just turned in. 1) Burrow recognizes defensive alignments better 2) Burrow processes faster 3) Blitzes against Burrow are something he punishes the D for…I’ll stop, because someone might rightly say, didn’t you state that Burrow may be better than Mahomes…and they would be right. The offensive game plan is a collective effort between the QB and the Ocoordinator; would Stafford or Goff have performed like Geno? Cousins? Or would they have made different pre snap reads and audibles? The debate has gotten old, Geno isn’t the answer moving forward and he is too expensive next year, end of story. Can Geno win? Yes, if everything else is going right and the other team has some key injuries, but it won’t be easy or comfortable.

    Rob might ban me one day for writing comments that are novel length, and he’d be right to do so. The good Lord knows I’ll write a paragraph, leave it, and come back only to add three more.

    The summation of all of these is that the best thing for the Seahawks as an Org is a change at the top following the season, it will ease the already brutal changes that need to happen in 2024, and set the stage for a smoother transition into the next era.

    Will I keep cheering and advocating for incremental improvements this year? Of course, and I’d encourage every fan to. 2013 would not have felt so sweet for me if I hadn’t been standing in a stadium with the same people I went to Detroit in 2005 with, at least one of whom I sat with looking at the fans blocking moving trucks in the 90s.

    I’m going to be hopefully thinking about a PC successor, and a QBotF, if I can endure McGwire and Taylor, I can endure more mediocrity in hopes of a better tomorrow, even if I want tomorrow to arrive faster than Amazon Prime can deliver it.

    • AlaskaHawk

      Interesting stuff! Thanks for using paragraphs!

  30. RMK-LouCityHawk

    With all of that, I forgot

    Is there a well of talking points that I’m just not finding?

    Last night (for me) the usual posters started cropping up with a bizarre, “well since you can do a better job, why not head down to the VMAC?” Or even weirder “if playing QB is so easy why aren’t you out there?”

    These are logically absurd and borderline offensive, I just wonder if there is a site or influencer I can’t find who just rolls out some talking points every week.

  31. Sea Mode

    The last 7 quarters of offense has got to be on some record-breaking terrible level. Inexplicable with all the weapons we have. I don’t care if they are the #1 defense in the league, this has simply been pure incompetence.

    Also, and I understand there are different personalities and such, but seeing Lamar on the sidelines smiling, relaxed, joking with his teammates–you know, having fun–(even before it became a blowout) just made Geno’s body language and attitude look terrible. He almost looks like he doesn’t even care or want to be out there.

    • Hawkdawg

      I think Geno is a worrier. The body language follows.

    • cha

      Geno’s body language and attitude look terrible. He almost looks like he doesn’t even care or want to be out there.

      It’s not unfair to wonder if all the shine he’s gotten this year and last has caused some of this.

    • Ashish

      PC and OC are responsible for the performance. If you see Geno in the Browns game he was feeling pressure even before defense in his face. So that’s on Geno but OC should have plays designed to overcome pressure.
      1) TE helps to chip the rusher
      2) Screenplay – which we are terrible. There was an instance yesterday where Geno should have given the ball to the wide receiver who was ready if there was a blitz but he gave to K9 for a negative play. That’s on Geno.
      3) and more

      A good example is Brown’s game’s first touchdown for Bobo, a good play design to handle pressure in the red zone.

      The frustration is that the Seahawks are not learning from their mistake. We might still lose the game but this is absurd planning.

  32. Denver Hawker

    The offense gets rightfully skewered for this game.

    But what about that 2nd half defense?!? Just a bloodletting. They knew the run was coming and couldn’t stop it. Baltimore deserves kudos for a masterful game, but there shouldn’t be any talk about how the defense kept things competitive. They had a solid first quarter, came up with a couple turnovers in the second, then rolled over and died.

    • Peter

      There’s not enough dogs to right the ship.

      There’s Reed….. Witherspoon and Hall will get there I think and that’s it.

      Bobby’s good in spots but has never really carried himself as ‘that guy.’ He’s always felt like a Lockett.

      Who is taking direction from the safeties?

      Mafe just seems like a quiet ultra steady player.

      I know nwossu’s stats were off but that’s feeling more and more like a huge loss.

      Can’t imagine anyone listening to perennially goof around class clown Taylor.

      I really don’t know enough about Jones or LW.

  33. Peter

    Listening to Cowherd talking about Bill’s post game.

    Switch the bills for the seahawks and a lot of the points are salient.

    If you’re always making excuses: dropped passes, offensive scheme, oline…you don’t have a qb.

    • RMK-LouCityHawk

      Really, a fair question to ask is if we are any better than

      The Jets, The Titans…. We have a not as good defense, with a non-functional offense.

      • Peter

        Jets…..who knows? But the defense feels real and ours is ‘streaky’….

        Not excited to open up the presents at x-mas time to find that we might have royally whiffed at qb….because, reasons?

    • Rob Staton

      Maybe the Bills will let us have Josh Allen

      • Group Captain Mandrake

        Maybe the Hawks can swap a couple safeties for him. Just spit balling.

  34. Gross MaToast

    It’s odd how Pete and Belichick sort of mirror each other. Their best days were with an all-timer at quarterback spreading the ball around and great defense. Obviously, Belichick has won a shit-ton more rings, but each coach had teams at the absolute pinnacle for awhile. And then each got goofy with hires, preferring “their” guys as opposed to the best coach they could get (Matt Patricia, OC??? KNJr???!). Each guy said some version of, “at this point, I just want to coach the guys I like and want to coach,” completely dismissing a good portion of being able to bring in top talent because often, top talent has to be managed. Both coaches lost their QB and seemed to think that it was a plug and play position, that their genius could overcome Geno being Geno and Mac Jones being Mac Jones. Each had a number of years with head-scratching draft picks and trades that didn’t add up. Now, each guy is stumbling to the finish line with teams that look like the Seahawks and Patriots, but most-decidedly are not. New England seems to have no real direction; Seattle seems to have punted on the thought ofa rebuild with the Williams trade.

    Each of these guys seem oblivious to the fact that what made their teams go was a QB they stumbled across on their way to the unemployment line – Brady, a sixth round pick, and RW, a third. They’ve both done crap jobs replacing those guys and their teams reflect that. Yes, each has made the playoffs with their new guys, but are the teams even a shadow of what they used to be? Maybe we can see echoes, but it’s impossible to argue that either franchise is what it was a decade ago. No team identity for either other than the coach. Certainly Pete and Belichick think they are the guy to bring these teams back to glory, but it’s obvious at this point that each franchise needs a fresh start with a new voice at the top. Not discounting what those guys did, because it was magic, but what it was, it ain’t no more.

    • RMK-LouCityHawk

      Recall that PC had to be sold on RW by JS, and that PC still made JS wait one round before taking RW.

      There is a lot of back room stuff that we only get small glimpses of.

      • Gross MaToast

        That’s right. What would those years look like with Matt Flynn at QB?

        • Denver Hawker

          Or Russ, but no Bobby

          • BK26

            Why would you say “no Bobby?”

            Ohhh yeah, he was a second round pick. Good thing we still have one next year. Oh…wait…

    • geoff u

      I don’t want to minimize coaching too much, but Brady is the best quarterback to have ever played the game. Ask yourself this: if Pete had Brady and Bellichick had Wilson, do you think the coaches would’ve won the same number of Super Bowls or would the wins follow the QBs?

      • Peter

        Too hard to say.

        Though Bill lost superbowls and didn’t lose his team.

        Additionally patriots had a minimum top 10 defense for every superbowl. That’s a long time to maintain that level. We haven’t.

        How would Brady do here in 2018,19,20 as the defense begins its cratering?

        • geoff u

          Patriots also had a top 10 defense, or close to, from 20-22. They went 7-8, 10-7, and 8-9.

          You’re not wrong though, defense matters. I do think Brady is a much better quarterback than Wilson though, and maybe swapping the two gives more mixed results and the wins even out a bit. You never know, but it’s fun to speculate. It certainly doesn’t make up for some of the dumb trades Seattle’s made.

          • Peter

            Brady rules. Has that slappable face that’s easy to hate. Corny in his own way….no tomatoes, sure why not….

            He’s definitely better than Wilson. But the whole patriots were a machine. There was quite a run where Wilson was playing at his level but the patriots were always a serious threat.

            I will never, ever take anything away from Brady or Bellichick. But in tiny font: must have been nice rocking up in the afc east for about 20 years as opposed to dealing with the often great niners, rams, and dangerous in spurts AZ over the last decade.

            • geoff u

              But the real question is, if we swapped Geno and Mac Jones, who would come out on top?

              • Peter

                Patriots. Because we’d throw in a third to make it happen.

                • geoff u

                  “I see our third, and raise you a second!” JS bidding against himself.

        • Cambs

          Imagining the LOB meltdown after Eli Manning steals their 19-0 season lol.

          It’s funny that despite the 20-year dynasty, Belichick gets more “what have you done for me lately” smoke from his local fans and media than do Pete and John.

          • Peter

            Cambs not sure if you’re UK based, US, or elsewhere but I can explain the Pete thing easily.

            In around 50 or less years of pro sports the city of Seattle has had two champions. One of which was in 1979 by a team that doesn’t even exist in that city any more. So rather naturally Pete is basically a God in Seattle for bringing the championship that most fans even remember.

            In boston they just win. 17 titles for Celtics in 77 years. 6 titles for patriots in 64 years. 9 titles for red sox in 122 years. The mariners have zero titles or appearances at getting a title in 46 odd years.

            • Cambs

              I’m in the UK now but I’m a PNW native, and I fully agree and feel every bit of that. City has a little-brother sports complex like no other, it used to enrage me that you’d get people turning out to warmly greet the 116-win M’s after they washed out in the ALCS. Gee thanks for the memories. I’m sorry but I’m with Boston and New York on this: return with your shield, or on it.

              Maybe if not for Dikembe Mutombo or that holding call on Sean Locklear or the Heathcliff Slocumb trade or even Malcolm Butler, there’d be a little better perspective. As it is, it’s like Pete took our v-card and we can’t let him go.

              My point was just … if there’s one guy on an NFL sideline about whom you could justifiably decide, he gets to coach as long as he wants even if he lost his fastball — it’s Bill B. But a fan base that demands more ain’t gonna put even a legend on indefinite scholarship.

            • Group Captain Mandrake

              Well now you’ve hurt the Storm and Sounders feelings.

      • DC1234

        Wilson in New England will win a lot more. AFC east were a dumpster fire division. While the seahawks had to contend with the Niners and Rams. And the Cardinals had a run with Arians and Palmer.

        New england were always the 1 or 2 seed.. Win one at home and get into conference championship game.

  35. KennyBadger


    Not that I thought a contract was imminent but -sigh- anyway.

  36. neil

    A lot of justified anger over the offensive struggles, but what about the tackling, it has been bad all ear.I would be surprised if they spend any time during the week practicing tackling.

    • 12th chuck

      its been bad for several years

  37. Zane

    I would be in favor of benching Diggs for Jerrick Reed at this point. Even if he made a bunch of mistakes in coverage, at least you know he would play with some semblance of physicality and juice.

    • Dubb

      Agree…but, it ain’t gonna happen.

  38. James

    I don’t condescendingly mean this, but man… the Seahawks are SOFT. Worse than that, watching them is boring. Not bad enough to accumulate high picks, not good enough to win… just kind of soft around the middle.

    • Rob Staton

      A legit concern James

  39. Peter

    The “how bad was it,” stat watch:

    Prior to Sunday I heard local and national media saying the phrase “top ten defense.”

    Here’s what happens when you play the Ravens and Lamar’s record against the NFC is miles better than Pete’s record at 10am…

    Seattle currently ranks:

    21st in points allowed

    20th in pass yards conceded

    And that vaunted run defense after falling to 8th after meeting the browns now sits at 21st (!!!) In yards allowed on the ground.

    A 20th ish ranked defense is the song that never ends no natter how much we shuffle the chairs.

    • Rob Staton

      Reality check

  40. Big Mike

    Just watched Mark Sanchez on Cowherd. Colin turned the convo to the Seahawks and Pete Carroll saying Geno is a great story but he’s (paraphrasing here) not the guy to get Seattle where it wants to go. He also mentioned how good the last 2 drafts have been and how the team is in good shape with drafted RBs, CBs Tackles, etc. He stated that he feels the Hawks will move up to get the last piece which is the QB they obviously need.

    Sanchez’s response was to hesitate and then said “Maybe, or Pete will bring someone in to compete (with Geno obviously)”. For those of you that don’t know, Sanchez played under Pete at USC and knows him on a personal level as well.

    I find Sanchez’s statement to be extremely revealing and extremely saddening. I think he’s right. I think Carroll won’t draft a QB before at least round 3 and will pass on someone much as he/they passed on Levis this most recent draft. Let then Tyrod Taylor era begin!

    • neil

      I don’t know how they can move up in the draft unless they give up 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 in the 25 draft.

      • neil

        On second thought with rhe schedule as it is they may finish high enough to draft a QB in their first round spot.

        • geoff u

          Sure would be nice to have a second rounder available to trade up 5-10 spots though, if need be.

    • Peter

      31-33 million for Geno in a competition plus 2-4 million for a back up journeymen…how about Lock!?

      I guess that would at least finally settle that John has zero job here and just collects a paycheck.

      There’s only one scenario more depressing: sign Geno to a three year 55 odd million guarantee to “reduce,” cap hit.

  41. cha

    PFF Ravens game offense


    • cha

      PFF Ravens game defense


      • geoff u

        And that’s why we pay Nick Bellore the big bucks

        • Peter

          Can you put a price on veteran presence?


          No. Seriously. Can you? Because the FO can’t.

          • geoff u

            But have you seen his videos? He’s a pretty funny guy. The comedic aspect alone is worth at least another mil a year. Comedy is often an overlooked aspect to winning championships, in fact some speculate it’s even more important than having a franchise quarterback. Can you name even one Super Bowl team that didn’t have a funny guy on it? I rest my case.

            • Peter

              Does Robert Kraft calling his players the wrong name count? Wes wekler…

              • geoff u

                That he’s a billionaire who goes to a “massage parlor” for a $100 happy ending is worth at least a decade of comedic credit.

      • Peter

        Gonna be one of those weeks where stats and grades don’t “show the whole picture.”

        Hope Hall is not seriously hurt because I’ve seen enough of Taylor doubling his snap count.

      • cha

        PFF charged the defense with 23 missed tackles.

      • Denver Hawker

        Dre, Cam, and Reed grades say all you need to know. Linderbaum feasted.

        • Big Mike

          Wasn’t there a draft guy in the Seahawks sphere that was pretty high on Linderbaum when he was entering the draft?

          • Denver Hawker

            We’ve long suspected Baltimore FO are avid SDB readers..

      • McZ

        While having huge doubts about the signing, I’d never thought Jones could turn in a lazier season than 2022, especially after getting paid. But here we are.

        The way this roster is constructed is just plain bad. No balance, soft underbelly, no leadership.

  42. WallaSean

    Confirming most of my priors, ugh! “You are what you is, and that’s all that you am” Good news is that we can still stay on track to have a top half offense and a middle third defense and win a playoff game. We know the bad news. Offense still can’t run a screen pass or quick passing game when someone shuts down the run, then they struggle on third downs. Defense still has inconsistent tackling and pass rush and gets gashed by a good running attack when they fall behind on time of possession. QB starts holding the ball too much when pass protection struggles. All of this creates a feedback loop that takes us out of our game plans on both sides. This criticism could be copied and pasted for every frustrating close win VS bad teams or loss for going on ten years. No answers at QB, under the gun on the cap, rinse and re-Pete. Not horrible but not good enough.

    • Peter

      Not sure you win many games or any games in the playoffs with the 15th ranked offense and defense…..not sure we’ll know though. Thankfully almost half the teams get to the playoffs because we’re it not for that:

      Seattle has the 20th ranked defense ( non dvoa, just straight facts: yards allowed, do you stop getting scored on)

      As for offense:


      Not good.

      • WallaSean

        Very true, still aspiring to get that playoff win and feel like some progress has been made. Not surprising to see this pattern play out vs Ravens, Eagles and 49ers are poised to do the same.

  43. Palatypus

    Rather than confirming my priors. I’m going to prioritize my confirms.

    • WallaSean

      I would take being wrong about screen passes, like 5 good ones in the same game.

      • Big Mike

        And I would love to be wrong about my priors when they actually draft a QBOTF and do so EARLY in the draft, cuz my priors are already that Pete won’t do it.

  44. LouieLouie

    Looking past just the Seahawks, for the NFC- “winter is coming.” Virtually all of the good quarterbacks are in the AFC. Mahomes, Jackson, Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, and Tagovialoa to name a few. Even the draft picks this year that look decent are in the AFC. The NFC has Jalen Hurts and, maybe, Prescott. I wouldn’t trade any of those AFC quarterbacks for Prescott. The AFC is going to hog the Lombardi Trophy for the next several years.

  45. Group Captain Mandrake

    This team. It used to be that I would watch every second of every game no matter how bad the beatdown was. I watched every game of the 2-14 season that was not blacked out (remember those?). A team can be bad and still fun to watch, but this team ain’t it. Bad offense. Bad defense. Nothing to hang their hat on. Their identity is striving to be middle of the road at best.

    • Rob Staton

      For me the bigger issue is them thinking they’re better than they are. Being honest about your own team and projecting accordingly is as critical as anything.

      Just find it very annoying, especially when it starts impacting their decision making

      • Group Captain Mandrake

        Exactly. They are treading water hoping to catch fire at the right time. It’s not happening.

  46. Palatypus

    Does anybody think the premature reciprocation in that Leonard Williams trade might be because Jodi Allen is close to finding a buyer?

    • Rob Staton


      • Palatypus

        So they haven’t sold any more art. Got it.

  47. Forrest

    We had the chance to cut BOTH Diggs and Adams this offseason and chose to not just keep them on the books, but make it HARDER to cut them next year by restructuring. Pete (yes, Pete, not John) should be fired for that alone!

  48. Matt Gaugler

    Hey, Rob enjoy your Seahawks coverage. What do you think of Sam Hartman qb at Notre Dame? Also what do you think about replacing Geno with Daniel Jones for a year to save money? Thanks

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