The Seahawks traded up to get Jarran Reed — the #47 SPARQ D-liner in 2016
The Seahawks are all about SPARQ, right?
Not so fast.
You can make an argument for such a focus on day three or during UDFA. The Seahawks try to max out every draft pick these days (no backup kickers) and often shoot for upside later on.
Kristjan Sokoli is a good example. He was a unique athlete with enormous potential. Seattle drafted him in round six with the intention of converting him from defensive tackle to center. His SPARQ score was off the charts. He was a physical phenomena.
He was also incredibly raw and inexperienced and couldn’t make the positional switch work. He lasted a year as a redshirt before being cut.
No big loss. It’s a sixth round pick. It’s a half-court shot on the buzzer.
If they can get the best athletes into the building and coach them up — you could end up with an exceptional player. Why not take the shot?
Here’s a list of later round picks where the players have had above average SPARQ scores:
R5 Luke Willson — 136
R6 Jeremy Lane — 128
R6 Eric Pinkins — 135
R6 Garrett Scott — 135
R6 Kristjan Sokoli — 155
R7 Jameson Konz — 150
R7 Ryan Murphy — 127
R7 Greg Scruggs — 132
R7 JR Sweezy — 127
You can also find examples where the Seahawks spent early picks on SPARQ stars. Bruce Irvin (144), Frank Clark (142) and Christine Michael (150) are the three.
However, the overall picture in rounds 1-3 is quite interesting and not as focused on SPARQ as you might think (especially compared to day three & UDFA).
Seattle’s first two picks last year were Germain Ifedi and Jarran Reed. According to SPARQ, Ifedi was only the 21st best athlete in the O-line class (scoring 111). The Seahawks could’ve taken Jason Spriggs instead, the #7 O-liner with a SPARQ rating of 123 (putting him in the 92nd NFL percentile).
George Fant was the #2 SPARQ O-liner (129) and joined the Seahawks as an UDFA.
Reed was even less athletic as the #47 SPARQ D-liner (101). He was only in the 23rd percentile for NFL players at his position. The Seahawks passed on more athletic D-liners with their first pick (Chris Jones, Vernon Butler) and even traded up to get Reed.
Seattle had five picks between rounds 1-3 last year:
Germain Ifedi — 111 SPARQ, #21 OL, 70th percentile
Jarran Reed — 101 SPARQ, #47 DL, 23rd percentile
C.J. Prosise — 120 SPARQ, #40 RB, 47th percentile
Nick Vannett — 106 SPARQ, #29 TE, 21st percentile
Rees Odhiambo — 83 SPARQ, #164 OL, 7th percentile
Not a single one of Seattle’s five early picks in 2016 ranked in the top-20 for their position according to SPARQ. Only Ifedi ranked above the 50th percentile in terms of NFL athleticism.
In 2015 the Seahawks did select Frank Clark as the #5 SPARQ EDGE rusher. There’s no doubting he’s a Greek God of an athlete. Yet with their second pick in the draft they traded up for Tyler Lockett — the #80 ranked wide receiver according to SPARQ.
That might surprise a lot of people because Lockett is assumed, not unfairly, to be a tremendous athlete. His SPARQ score however doesn’t represent this. He’s only in the 46th percentile for NFL receivers.
Furthermore, Seattle has consistently drafted receivers with a similar SPARQ score:
Tyler Lockett — 115
Golden Tate — 116
Paul Richardson — 118
Chris Harper — 116
Kris Durham — 116
Kevin Norwood — 111
Kris Lawler — 103
The best SPARQ receiver added in the Carroll era is Ricardo Lockette, an undrafted free agent who scored a 135.
This isn’t just the case at receiver either. The average SPARQ score of the cornerbacks drafted by the Seahawks is 115. 43 cornerbacks in the 2017 draft class scored higher than a 115.
The Seahawks have drafted six offensive linemen since 2010 in rounds 1-3. Here’s how they scored using SPARQ:
Russell Okung — 114
James Carpenter — 100
Germain Ifedi — 111
Justin Britt — 122
John Moffitt — 96
Rees Odhiambo — 83
And here are the O-liners they’ve drafted in rounds 4-7 plus select UDFA’s:
Mark Glowinski — 124
Terry Poole — 110
Kristjan Sokoli — 155
Garrett Scott — 135
JR Sweezy — 127
Ryan Seymour — 120
Michael Bowie — 86
George Fant — 132
Garry Gilliam — 122
Alvin Bailey — 110
Average (R1-3) — 104
Average (R4-UDFA) — 120
This backs-up the half-court shot theory. The Seahawks are mostly shooting at the buzzer on fantastic athletes on day three and in UDFA.
With their early picks, they have been known to draft the occasional SPARQ demon. Yet the evidence shows the Seahawks are not just using SPARQ to determine who they draft early. Positional ideals and specific physical traits appear to be equally if not more important.
For example:
— On the O-line there’s a strong focus on explosive performers (vertical, broad, bench press) rather than overall athleticism (as emphasised by our TEF study)
— At linebacker there appears to be a focus on short area quickness (short shuttle), general speed and explosive physicality (highlighted here)
— At cornerback we know they like length on the outside as they’ve consistently drafted players with 32 inch arms and a 77.5 inch wingspan (highlighted here)
— At running back they’ve consistently prioritised explosive traits ahead of speed, while drafting for a certain body type (approximately 5-11, 225lbs)
You can pretty much go through every position and identify the trends. Mentality, grit and physicality are important too.
Let’s go back to last years class. Why did Seattle draft each player, considering we’ve already established it wasn’t due to their SPARQ score?
Germain Ifedi — fantastic size, explosive tester, good TEF score
Jarran Reed — Toughness, great run defender, grit
C.J. Prosise — Fit Seattle’s size profile at RB, explosive
Nick Vannett — Good blocker, unique in the modern game
Rees Odhiambo — Had potential, wasn’t 100% pre-draft
Unique qualities. Traits such as size/length, short-area quickness or the way a player performed in the explosive tests. Attitude, mentality, grit. These appear to be at least as valuable as SPARQ in projecting what Seattle will do.
This year, Obi Melifonwu might be another Frank Clark or Bruce Irvin — an all-round dynamic athlete with limitless upside they just have to add. Ditto Kevin King or Tyus Bowser (for example).
Yet there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t also draft a prospect early without a high SPARQ score. Michigan’s Jourdan Lewis, who recently visited Seattle, is a good example. He’s the #71 SPARQ cornerback this year, scoring a 109.8. He’s also really gritty, superb in coverage, makes plays and has the kind of mentality that fits this defense.
Everything people said about Jarran Reed a year ago.
So while SPARQ is a useful tool to compare athletic profiles and it certainly has a use in helping to identify potential day three or UDFA targets for Seattle — the evidence shows it’s not the be-all and end-all when it comes to projecting who the Seahawks might draft in the early rounds.
And while they might end up selecting a supreme athlete with their top pick this year, it’s arguably just as important to identify three things:
— What are the specified areas of need?
— What are the positional ideals (physical features or testing results)
— Who stands out? (length, grit, etc)
They went completely away from SPARQ last year. 2 guys with athletic upside.
Ifedi & Prosise.
I think people get too caught up in the wrong column when looking at the SPARQ tablet. Sure the overall score, but more important? The NFL %. It tells us how these guys compare, athletically, to the rest of the league.
And in terms of position. There’s some that don’t call for great athleticism.
You don’t need all your backup or starting O-lineman to be freaks. You don’t need your DTs to be. Your WRs? Ehh. Sometimes.
CB, S, LB seem to be the sweet spot for SPARQ. DE/OLB might also be worth mentioning as well.
I also agree, when you see the NFL % and it is above 50%…. that is actually pretty good and there are a few players this year above 98% in athleticism for their position in the NFL….. that is extraordinary.
Rob, you see this?
Volume12 says:
April 14, 2017 at 3:11 pm
So according to Davis Hsu, Seattle’s top 2 ranked players are Stanford O-lineman Solomon Thomas and ‘Bama TE OJ Howard.
They may try to move up in the 1st for a D-lineman. ‘Bama’s Jon Allen. Their ‘fallback’ may be Michigan’s Taco Charlton. And they seem to like Charlotte DT Larry Ogunjobi.
Marlon Humphrey is their #1 CB.
They have a 1st round grade on Florida CB Quincy Wilson.
Apparently they feel like there’s a huge cliff for the DL, but not for CBs. So that explains the interest in guys like Ahkello Witherspoon and Jourdan Lewis.
I hadn’t seen it. A lot of it makes sense.
I think a ton of teams will have Humphrey ranked as their #1 corner. He will go a lot earlier than the media talking heads have been suggesting. Quincy Wilson is really good too, not sure why the media types went from hyping him up to dropping him into R2-3 so quickly. I kind of went the other way with him.
Would be surprised if moving up for Jonathan Allen is a thing. Would take probably their top two picks and maybe more (2018 comp?). Can see them liking Taco but he might go earlier than people realise too.
For example, per the draft trade chart you might be able to get up to #18 if you’re willing to give up #90 and #102. Feels like a steep price and you’d only be picking five times in the draft.
That said, I think Davis is implying they need to trade Sherman to do this (looking on his TL). So presumably you’re starting at a higher point (eg #18) and then you might be able to get into range for Allen.
Absolutely. I probably should’ve put that in there.
If there’s any CB whose attitude, interviews, and ‘swag’ are Seahawky, its Quincy Wilson.
Didn’t Pete work Jonathan Allen out personally at the ‘Bama pro day, or am I recalling that incorrectly? The arthritic shoulders are a real concern but you can line him up mostly anywhere on the line and he could be the disruptive interior rusher we all want. It would take a heckuva slide though, even with the injury flag.
He didn’t work him out but they fell in love: https://twitter.com/colecubelic/status/842469587656552450
I like Allen a lot. Great production. THAT sack against Texas A&M. And yet Alabama could rotate guys all day on that DL, had so many rushers you had to account for. You could never key-in on Allen or Williams. At the next level he won’t get the kind of 1v1 match-ups against college linemen he thrived on. And he didn’t test particularly well to think he’ll go to the next level and just be better than everyone else.
I agree with everything you’re saying, but it’s funny that people penalize Forrest Lamp for never facing anybody in college and people won’t acknowledge Alabama because they don’t have any great pass rushers and yet you read about Allen and it talks about how he didn’t play all the time because Alabama had such a plethora of pass rushers.
Mentioned that some posts back (and comments were Alabama doesn’t have good pass rushers).
People aren’t willing to acknowledge Lamp as facing great competition and people won’t acknowledge Allen because he was surrounded by too many pass rushers. Funny.
I have never used a lack of good opponents argument against Lamp and I haven’t seen anyone else saying that in the comments section.
It’s also not about failing to acknowledge Allen. It’s not unfair to suggest when you’re playing within a 7-8 man rotation on the D-line and every guy is a 4-5 star stud, it makes life easier. Opponents cannot focus on one guy at any point.
“BobbyK says:
April 7, 2017 at 11:15 am
In looking at Lamp some more… why can’t he play LT? Is it because his arms are too short, like Joe Thomas? Is that the only justifiable reason? Why weren’t his arms too short when he played well against Alabama?
Reply
Jujus says:
April 7, 2017 at 11:29 am
Well I believe that alabama doesnt have any edge rushers that fit the typical edge guy length in the NFL, the athlete like Cliff avril who can dominate with his speed and length.”
And I know you like Lamp. It’s just funny some of the arguments that are out there for some players. That’s why, Rob, you have the best draft blog/site there is. You don’t play that game and I’d be willing to bet money that you’re spot on much more than the talking heads. Actually, all of us know that – that’s why you have so many followers. Kudos to you and all your work.
I love lamp, I was just explaining why people in the league might pigeonhole him positional wise
I know it was only a 6 second clip, but, to me, it looked like J. Allen didn’t even know that that was PC. Straight up stonewalled the Robber Baron. SMH… 😉
I absolutely love O.J. Howard. Already planning to draft him next year in fantasy lol. Same with Ross and McCaffrey, no matter where they go
Charlton and Ogunjobi played through injuries at one point each.
I really want to like Taco, but he doesn’t look great at 5 tech and plays really tall
And that’s why his range will be in the 20’s. He’s a 4-3 guy with tremendous upside. You can get creative with a guy like Charlton.
Would you be mad at Taco, Jourdan Lewis 1-2?
I wouldn’t.
I would flipping do cartwheels if they drafted Taco Charlton. Ogunjobi’s an interesting player to consider, as well.
Humphrey is really good, he has absolutely everything the Hawks like as well. I saw some mock today that had him lasting into the early third…
A few of us mentioned recently how he’s lasting into the second and third round in some drafts when he seems to be the best one available. I love King, but I’d take Humphrey over him.
The Lynch compensation seems interesting. Will we get a 4th or 5th round pick or will we perhaps turn our #26 pick into the #24 pick? Which may make it a bit easier for a player like King to make it to us (Humphrey has to be long gone).
The more I think about it the more I think King will be long gone as well. If Lattimore and Humphrey are the top 2, King is #3. If Lattimore goes top 5 or even top 10, the next corner is gonna come quick, say Humphrey to NO at #11, that leaves 25 picks for the #3 corner to fall. Don’t be surprised if King goes in the top 15. (Arizona?)
Yeah. I think King will be gone by #26, too.
I’m less convinced. Most analysts, film guys, ‘experts’ aren’t as sold or excited about King as us Seattle fans are. Obviously, the athletic profile is all there, but he has flaws and development concerns vs some of the other corners. Plus, not every team is going by the Seahawks code of length, wingspan. Some I’ve listened to recently have 2nd-3rd round grades on King (draftbreakdown.com podcast, and both NDT guys to name a couple). That said, it only takes one team to feel they can coach up those dynamite traits…
I think there are several raw edge rushers that are interesting, such as D. Rivers, T. Hendrickson, J. Willis, Basham, and obviously we’ve talked a lot about Watt, who I’ve heard stated has the Fram to put on enough good weight to become
*frame to put on enough good weight to become a starting 43 DE.
I enjoy Davis Hsu’s twitter feeds, but how on earth could he possibly know how John has his draft board set up?
Old college buddy or work associate perhaps? I’m not sure he necessarily has an inside scoop but he has been ahead of the curve enough with things like this.
Yeah – I looked thru his Twitter feed and couldn’t find anything. Rob? Vol?
If you look through his replies to people he basically lays out the info discussed here by Volume 12.
Interesting…but why would the Seahawks just spill the beans like that to this Davis Hsu guy and to the rest of the world. Makes no sense. Either Hsu is lying or the Seahawks are incredibly stupid.
Organisations leak. They aren’t just one huge monolithic hive-mind. All it takes is one scout who’s mates with Hsu to say they’re considering trading up if their guy falls far enough and you’re off to the races. Humphrey as their #1 isn’t surprising, they love that program and he ticks all their boxes. Them liking Quincy Wilson isn’t surprising either, he’s big and long and carries himself like he owns the field – they love that shit. Solomon and Howard being at the top of their board isn’t a surprise either.
The only real surprise is the trade-up news, and that could be deliberate misinformation as much as anything. It’s a weird time of the year.
Put Dalvin Cook on the board!
No, he has more red flags then mixon. And his athletic profile has no precursor of success in the nfl.
And to be fair, I’d rather draft Mixon. He’s the best back in the draft.
I agree to an extent, I consider him and fournette semi equals just on different spectrums of style
I’m sorry, but unless he has a video out there of him punching a woman, he’s small change in comparison. Cook is the best runner in the draft. I don’t care what he jumped at the combine.
Forgot the source but someone said that Teams think Cook has a worse character than Mixon.
Some think he runs with a rough crowd, I’ve heard.
Not all will think it’s a problem.
That + alcohol issues, animal abuse, robbery, an assault… There’s a fair bit to get through.
Regarding positional ideals, I wonder what they’re looking for at slot DB? I’m sure they want a more intimidating presence than Lane for punishing crossers and run support. Obi is a tantalizing prospect, but would quick WRs create quick separation that could not be offset with his athleticism and length???
It’s hard to say because they’ve never drafted a specialist there. I think being above average vs the run will be key. Good athlete. Maybe good short shuttle. I’m guessing though.
The only time they had someone who could have been a specialist there was Josh Wilson and they got rid of him in a hurry. The difference now is they want to win in the moment and aren’t building for the future (like they were).
BobbyK we did sign and then cut that exceptional veteran slot db from the vikings… i cant recall his name but he was like 34 and did the lean back wave ur arms move for celebrations.
Antoine Winfield
I think they will look for a guy who could play inside or outside. Tough vs the rush. Good football IQ and instincts for the ball. Very good lateral movement ability and explosive hitting at the point of attack.
Like Josh Wilson was in the slot. That’s my quandary.
He was just little but had great short area quickness, was a great blitzer, etc. He was just little.
I liked Wilson, but he was prone to gamble and got beat too often for Carrol. That played into his leaving, not just his lack of size.
Why can’t Witherspoon play there? His ability to stay with John Ross bodes pretty well him for at the next level.
Yes his tackling leaves something to be desired to say the least, but I don’t think Witherspoon is a bad option it some of ‘their’ other guys are off the board.
His ball skills might be the best in this class and he gets his hands on everything.
He’s Kevin King minus the tackling technique in the run game.
How do you square your last statement though? Witherspoon has undeniable coverage skills. But he if he doesn’t have it to tackle now for a team that wants to be the bully and be the best at stopping the run, how would he fit?
Agreed. Tackling requires an attitude, not just technique, so you can teach a player how to do it, but can you teach him to want to?
So your gonna pass on the guy who matches their physical profile, probably has the best ball skills out of anyone, because he struggles to defend the run? And draft a CB that can, but will make 0 plays on the ball and just get beat like a drum?
The #1 philosophy of this D is to limit explosive plays. Then its stop the run.
I have to disagree here Volume12. Witherspoon has moments where he actively avoids contact. If this was just a technical tweak I could see your point. He’s not even able to hold position on his side of the field.
Explosive plays includes running plays. And if teams are getting +10-15 yards on the ground running his side or via WR screens then he is giving up explosive plays. The Seahawks are also focused on taking away the run to make teams one-dimensional. And if they’re never able to do that, they won’t get the benefit of strong coverage skills.
Witherspoon based on his college performance he is a massive liability when the ball isn’t travelling in the air. I suspect the point of their meeting was to find out who he really is and get to the bottom of why he was shirking contact so much at Colorado.
Absolutely you do. He kills you in the running game and that’s unacceptable. He’s beyond soft.
Check out that Ogunjobi tape. The RS Senior from Charlotte is a force at DT!
Great eyes, hands, and footwork. He looked pissed in a rout from Louisville last year.
4.9~ at 30~! not bad
Thats a guy that I would pretty interested in as well as your dude Antoine. Seems to me to run the big nickel you have to make the front four just a little stronger to balance the loss of the third LB.
They need another DT because Rubin is likely gone next year, QJeff is an unknown, and there’s no backup behind Reed.
And they could very well fill that role with a vet as they always do, but something tells me they like this DT class perhaps more than draft media does.
I’ve never really understood the “great draft class thing.” Personally, if Allen becomes a great DT and the Seahawks get him and the rest of the DT draft class is terrible – why do we care if it was a bad draft class when we got a stud?
That’s always annoyed me when people talk about how this position is bad because it’s a bad draft class for it. Who cares if you’re the team who gets a great player from that position.
Case in point: If you’re the team that drafts Forrest Lamp, are you going to care that it was a bad OL draft class? No, because it was a pretty great OL draft class for you!
Which is why there’s really no such thing as a reach. IF he ends panning out for you.
Yep!
The “reach” concept has always bothered me. So it was a reach on your board, but what do you know about that team’s board.
I choose to hear the word “reach” to mean that the commentator may not have done his homework.
Different teams value a variety of qualities, as Rob has shown us the Seahawk tendencies, but different approaches produce a variety of results. That is what makes the draft such a hoot.
It would be boring if all the teams shared the same big board, and the picks came invariably like expected.
+1
The best part of the draft is having our collective preconceptions destroyed like a storm smashing a cheap canoe against a rocky shore. And all the second-guessing and speedy hindsighting that comes after a surprise pick in order to justify it.
They’ve definitely been sniffing been sniffing around the DT’s in this class for a while, and they have also been slow looking at vets. I’ve been thinking for the last couple weeks that they might go DL early because of the drop off and go DB later. It’s kinda what they did with taking Ifedi first last year because they knew the draft was deep at DT.
Also, they didn’t expect Reed to drop that far into R2, and found great value to move up and snag. They could go DL early and move up for a DB in R2 that they have graded high.
HI Hawk, thanks for bringing up Kareem Hunt on that last thread, I’ve been thinking about him a lot lately and would really like to see him push Collins as well! That would be great competition
Ex- Jags and Miami DE Jared Odrick is apparently visiting the Seahawks. Veteran guy, 6’5″, 290, pretty regularly around the 5 sacks per season mark. He’s a different cat, marches to the beat of his own drum. I like that in a player, and we know the Hawks do to an extent as well. If he can play a bit of DT on passing downs, and can be had at veteran minimum, he could be a sneaky good pick.
I’d love an Odrick addition at the minimum. We need at least 2 more bodies to carry what we normally do on the roster. Wouldn’t mind Odrick and maybe snagging Vanderdoes out of UCLA in the third if he is still there.
He’s definitely worth a look. I question how much he loves football, and how important it is to him. He didn’t seem anywhere near upset Jacksonville cut him, jokingly posting a picture of himself on a sunny beach smiling the day he was cut. Athletically, I think he fits the mold of what they like as an interior rusher though. They might be inclined to bring him in on another one year deal as a hedge in the event they aren’t able to fill that spot in the draft. Sound like they are seriously going after that spot, though.
That’s what I’m saying, he’s his own man. And honestly, I wouldn’t want to play under Tom Coughlin either. Take some time off, try to get off the painkillers, stop forcing calories down your throats for a bit, come back fresh for a year or two and have some fun with it. I think he’d be a good fit in Seattle, we’ll see how it pans out though.
Insider Source is saying that Seattle is seriously considering moving up. My thought is they may want to position themselves in front of Oakland for Awuzie, Jackson, or Melifonwu. Oakland grabs similar talent on D are have similar positions of need.
But if they trade their #26 AND Lynch to Oakland for their #24… then they won’t have to move in front of them. As Vol12 mentioned earlier/above… they might be thinking about moving up/higher for a DT like Allen. Interesting.
It seems to me that if the draft is deep, more teams are willing to trade down to take advantage, that may allow a team to move up at a cheaper price than usual, as teams seek to add picks. As we would like to do. While I do not expect us to trade up, it would not surprise me. For a special player, it can be worth some sacrifice.
On the other hand, it would not be surprising to see them do some maneuvering to add some picks in the middle rounds.
So interesting, and so variable.
Rob, you did it again. How do you see this stuff we all seem to miss? Thanks for the sharpened perspective.
Ok, I may get killed on here for this, but here it is. For starters, let me say I loved watching the heart and toughness Lynch ran with. I love that his teammates loved him and he had the best end zone celebration in football(shakes o-lineman’s hands.) I appreciate his role in Seattle’s current great run.
That said, I don’t understand the fierce loyalty Hawks fans and certain members of the media have for him. Certainly not over a guy like Sherman.
When they acquired Lynch in 2010 he was an afterthought in Buffalo who was falling down the depth chart and had been involved in an ugly hit and run incident. It was the Seahawks that brought him in and gave him an opportunity to be great. it was the Seahawks that gave him a contract in 2012 that he was more than happy to sign and it was the Hawks that stood by him even when he got his DUI in Oakland. Lynch consistently broke rule#1. He was the one flipping off coaches. He was the one not communicating with Pete Carroll. He was the one holding out despite 2 years on his contract. HE was the one showing up in Turkey fanning the flame of the preposterous notion that the Seahawks coaches didn’t want him to be the “face of the nation.” Let’s not even talk about the Viking playoff game (I know he said he was hurt, but he didn’t let the coaches know till the last minute.)
Then there the media thing. talking to the press is literally part of his job as laid out by the nflpa. Why is he so special. Plus, the Seattle media has always treated him quite well, especially when u compare him to someone like, oh, say, Sherman. There are other examples too. Further he signed a 3 year extension. One of the reasons for the extra years was cap structure, but I suspect it was also to avoid Lynch trying to go to another team. Yet hear he is and so are we.
It has the 12s that have shown him nothing but love. I remember well Monday night football in 2011 where he was showered with skittles as we defeated the eagles. Has he ever really returned that love? His heart is in Oakland and that’s fine. All the 12s ever asked is that he follow rule 1, but that was too much to ask. Seattle was always a business decision. That’s fine too.
On to Sherman. For the most part Sherman has been a banner Seahawk. Until this year he was great with the press. Great in the community. Supportive of teammates. He played hurt and was still elite. Does he mess up occasionally. Yes. However until this season,he has been everything that we could ever ask. Even in his mistakes, it is due to his competitive nature. This is not the case with many teams.
Which is why I don’t understand the animosity and vitriol with which some Seahawks fans and certain media treat this man while Lynch is beloved. In fact it could well be that lynch’s poor example paved the way for Sherman’s discontent.
Phew. Glad to get that out.
Proceed with the tar and feathers…
“Great in the community. Supportive of teammates. He played hurt and was still elite. Does he mess up occasionally. Yes. However until this season,he has been everything that we could ever ask. Even in his mistakes, it is due to his competitive nature.”
Are you talking about Sherman or Lynch? All the good you said about Sherm could be said of Lynch, too. The lockerroom LOVED him, he taught Rawls and passed him the torch like a man, he flipped off the coaches because of his competitive nature. He messed up occasionally (Media). Lynch will forever be a Seahawks Legend, he’s already up there with Largent, Jones, Hutch, Tez, Easley. He deserves a statue yesterday IMO
I acknowledged that his teammates loved him. That means a lot. We’ll agree to disagree on the rest.
I know you did, I was just listing the similarities he has to Sherman.
I’ll add this, what Sherman did last season on the sideline is far worse than flipping off the sideline. Lynch’s would have gone unnoticed if not for the camera just happening to be in him when he did it. Sherm made a huge scene when we’re about to score and he’s just watching, he might as well have put on the opposing team’s jersey
Everyone acknowledges that Shermans behavior was out of line this season. That’s not the point. I’m asking why Marshawn gets the hero treatment for being kind of a jerk, when Sherman gets villainized for doing far less
Out of sight out of mind. Would Marshawn be beloved if he were still on the team and these events were happening? Marshawn played when the team was at the top and winning cures everything. The past two seasons the team has taken a turn south from what it was. If Marshawn were a part of that, would fans be giving him a free pass if he were doing what Sherm did last season?
Look at Shawn Kemp. Beloved now. People remember his legacy. But when he left the sonics, he was booed every time he touched the ball. Ken Griffey left the mariners under bad circumstances. He wanted to go to the Reds, and he even got Bowden to play hardball to lower the trade pieces to not cripple his new team. Last night they unveiled a statue to him at Safeco.
Out of sight out of mind.
I know a few things happened last year with the defense talking on the sidelines. Probably a combination of being competitive and getting frustrated. Well it’s up to the coaches to control that. And Sherman is competitive so you know he is going to cross the line occasionally. I just don’t see that as a long term issue – the coaches will get him under control this year.
Marshawn – I thought Seattle treated him pretty well with his contracts. Even renegotiate with two years left on his contract, and he is still on contract if he wanted to come back. But nooooo. He has to be his own man and follow his own path. Well its a shame Seahawks can’t get more of a draft pick for him. Why not a third rounder? If its a late rounder I would rather trade for a higher position in round #1.
Alaska I agree. It’s not a long term issue. I’d rather see Sherman challenging the offense to put points on the board than accepting for example a 14-5 defeat at Tampa. Sherm will get himself under control this year. He wants that second ring so bad to remove the memory of that dreadful night v NE. I think this year he balls out and we do it.
Oh yeah, he did have the best TD celebration in football but it wasn’t the handshake lol
Lol. but I guess that is the case in point. Marshawn Lynch performs one of the legendary runs of all time and finishes with some bad sportsmanship. (Twice)It was mostly ignored.
Sherman made one of great defensive plays in playoff history, then showed bad sportsmanship. He got killed in the media to the point that the president even weighed in…
funniest endzone leap ive ever seen
Lynch and Sherman are both banner Seahawks and each is/was the best at their respective positions that we have ever had. The Tip & Beastquake are probably the 2 single best plays in Hawks history (at least in my memory). I love them both. We all know what it feels like to be a champion in no small part because of these guys.
No one has to like everything about them. I just got done watching the Beast Mode w/Bear Grylls episode. Marshawn is a funny dude. He’s just a big kid. I’m glad he’s staying true to himself.
Society has a fierce need to change people. These two ain’t playing ball and that causes conflict and friction. I respect them both. There aren’t any real “rules”, just the beliefs we each choose.
On the contrary, coach Carroll’s first rule is Protect the team. Both violated this rule. However, Sherman only became a problem for last year. Beast was like that for years.
Look, I like Lynch. Not saying I don’t. But he signed a 3 year contract. He took the $. Now he says he still wants to play. But not for the Hawks. I get it, it’s his hometown. He doesn’t want us or his teammates enough to come back during a championship window.
The truth is Seattle always loved lynch more than he ever loved Seattle. Sherman actually loves it here and many want him to go. I really hope he and the team work it out. Go Hawks.
Basically Marshawn shouldn’t have been extended with another long term contract. He was at 30, on the decline, and the front office let their hearts decide on their newest superstar. It was great while he was in good health and productive. Now he won’t even try to help the Seahawks in good health.
This is a good lesson when evaluating other players like Kam Chancellor, Thomas, or Sherman. I love them all, but can also tell that they are a step slower than when they were rookies. Will they last for a long time? Maybe, but it needs to be evaluated without the heart tugging but I love that player moments.
You bring up some good points. I love Lynch as a player and a person, one of my favorite Seahawks. But the whole taking the money and running, leaving the Hawks to pay him millions for not playing, and then sneakily wanting to get back into the game and get off the hook for the money is kind of ridiculous.
I hope he goes to Oakland and has some great plays, but it would be cool for the Hawks to get some kind of compensation.
Sherman actually loves it here and many want him to go. I really hope he and the team work it out.
Ive read multiple articles saying Sherman asked for the trade. is that not correct?
As near as I tell, there are tons of stories about this subject, each of which will tell you something different about who wants what. His brother said he wants to stay. The Seahawks have said they don’t think twice likely. Idk
Regarding Carroll’s “first rule”, how are you going to receive that message from the guy who was at the helm of USC and then bailed right before the sanction hammer came down for a “lack of institutional control” during his tenure? When “Win Forever” meets “Protect the Team” win forever wins a lot of the time.
I will love all of these guys forever. There is a lot of BS, hypocrisy and goofy antics involved but it’s part of the whole. They brought us our one and only championship. I waited a loooong time for that and I don’t take it or the folks involved for granted.
We are talking about a group of primarily 20-something males, arguably the second stupidest group of humans on the planet (behind teenage males). You hope for the best. Looking back, I’m surprised that I survived that time in my life.
Seattle’s approach is fantastic. Naturally in the early rounds you’ll have more information and familiarity. It’s helpful to have analytic tools, which are still in infancy stage, but there is exponentially greater margin for error in those rounds so obviously multiple methods can succeed. Heck, different teams will be eyeing the same player for vastly different reasons.
Down the line when it’s more vague and scattergun you need a gimmick, preferably a logical gimmick that shifts the percentages slightly in your favor. As a Dolphins fan I don’t know how many times I cursed Don Shula for drafting some stiff in the later rounds, without a fleck of athletic ability. Shula subjectively would identify the bottom of SPARQ, one before SPARQ was known.
Contrast to when I was 10 years old the draft was something like 17 rounds. I remember being thrilled when Miami drafted Jake Scott in the 7th round. I had actually watched him play and knew he was darn good. Who cares that he had some squabbles with Georgia coaches and ended up briefly in the CFL? This was the type of value pick that should be prominent in later rounds. Gamble on greatness. Otherwise it’s like laying up on a par 5 while down by 2 on the final hole.
Speaking of golf, I found my own versions of SPARQ in 2000 after having an absolutely horrendous year betting the golf matchups in 1999. I threw everything into Excel. It spit out an astonishing 68% matchup winners if the player had an advantage in both driving distance and putts per green in regulation entering the tournament. That held up fully for 2 years and was a gold mine, until the oddsmaker somehow wised up and started matching players with similar numbers in both categories. For the LPGA it was considerably more bizarre. The stats weren’t available but bios were. Very quickly I noticed that players who were exactly 5 foot 6 were not only dominating the matchups but winning the tournaments. It made perfect sense since that height allowed enough wiry power while also not being too far from your work. Michelle Wie is not a disappointment. She had the misfortune of being 6 foot 1 in this sport. Too many things go wrong. That’s why she constantly has to tinker with her swing and putting style. As soon as I learned her height before ever seeing her play when she was 13 I posted that no chance she would fulfill expectation.
I think it was something like 19 consecutive seasons that the LPGA Player of the Year had a listed height of exactly 5-6. Stacy Lewis ended the streak. She is 5-5. South Koreans dominate that sport largely because their females are considerably taller than the typical Asian country. Hence they send out one player after another in the ideal 5-6 range, like Se Ri Pak, Inbee Park and So Yeon Ryu, all 5-6. Meanwhile the Americans are all over the map in terms of height but generally too tall and therefore erratic.
I mention this only because I’m an older guy who has done enough research to realize that tons more helpful angles are out there that either haven’t been discovered or not yet publicized. Some of my Las Vegas buddies are tight lipped as they can be and have threatened me not to give away their prized material. This is betting related but it applies elsewhere. If you sit around and rely on subjective garbage alone then it’s yet another example of a flawed process being passed down to the next generation of flawed processors.
I dig reading your posts. Good stuff
agreed, always an interesting read. ty awsi
Cool read again!
Very interesting to read, I wonder if we can assimilate you into the 12th man.
tell us more of your ways o wise yogi
I’ve said this may be the year to trade up, considering our title window and roster (aging, contracts expiring), and discount the volume drafting practice of previous seasons somewhat.
I don’t know if that above rumor has any merit, but I want to ask a question:
Who are your guys, a shortlist of trade-up targets?
I think Allen is a good one to list. I’d also add Bolles, Obi for sure. I’d take a swing on Corey Davis.
It’s hard to get too excited for much else that have a chance to fall to at least 15. I think 15-26 will have many similar talents or are positions that can also be found later. King maybe, but he has late first to 3rd round grades according to some I’ve read. Same for A. Jackson. Why not let another DB fall or take a later value at that spot rather than move up? I could see a minor move up for the right guy (King, Jackson, Awuzie, or Humphrey). I don’t see Lattimore or Conley making it in range (and Conley is an IF, due to his handlessness). Is Charlton that good? Quite possible. I don’t feel that same of anyone else outside of Solomon or Allen. I think both will make great 43 3-techs.Howard has zero chance of falling. I think same about R. Foster despite some se time to otherwise. Who or what are we missing?
I’d move up a few spots for Obi. I’ve watched his good tape (virginia) and his bad tape (houston) a ton of times. Rob’s been super diligent about studying the nickel CB’s but for me if you want to really set the bar for a modern NFL player you have to look at Obi. That size near and LB but the explosion plus short area quickness of players significantly smaller than him is amazing. his ability to commit and bring down dudes in the open field to clean up bad plays is something else. People harp on him not being a heavy hitter. So what. Neither is Wright and he’s one of the best LB’s in the game.
*that size, nearly a LB*….
I agree, Lynch was a force to be reckoned with both on and off the field. If we would have given him at least 1 try to punch it in at the 1 yard line in the SB he probably would’ve had more loyalty but he definitely needed to be handled with kid gloves, plus no Lynch- no superbowl. I think Sherman played through injuries and it showed, maybe to opposing teams too. I think his ego is a bit inflated but in the past he always backed it up. Hopefully he will again for us, or it’s time to move on. All this talk about how it’s just a business is BS, i want/ demand loyalty to the team who drafted you and gave you superstar money and a podium. Time for new bodies because i root for the team.
I’d be good with less players of a higher caliber than lots of depth, if you see someone special, go get him. Besides this draft will be loaded with UDFA’s.
I normally agree, but I think TJ Watt is going to make more Pro Bowls than most of the top-15 picks (and would have been a top-10 pick himself had he stayed in school another year).
I think Watt can be a SAM immediately, and groom for full time DE, similar to Clark, and we have our 4 deep lethal rush package now and our Bennett and Avril replacements for injury and long term solution. Watt could be an important piece in our defense. I am concerned about his development at this stage as a rusher. He needs more refinement, experience. This may be why we are thinking he lasts until late 1 ~ mid 2nd. He may not require a trade up.
That said, I think there are some gems later should we pass on him or simply miss out.
If all the top corners are taken I would definitely go Watt to strengthen the linebackers. He would be incredibly useful and is a tough player. The draft is deep enough they can get a corner in the second round.
I would love Watt
I wouldn’t trade up for Allen, but I definitely would to secure Melinfonwu.
same.
The Seattle Seahawks miss out on highly coveted players in R1 and trade back with the QB hungry Cleveland Browns, acquiring picks 33, 108, and 181. With the 33rd pick in the 2017 NFL Draft, the Seattle Seahawks select Larry Ogunjobi, defensive tackle, Charlotte.
33: R2P1
DL LARRY OGUNJOBI
CHARLOTTE
58: R2P26
CB JOURDAN LEWIS
MICHIGAN
90: R3P26
G ISAAC ASIATA
UTAH
102: R3P38
WR TAYWAN TAYLOR
WESTERN KENTUCKY
106: R3P42
S SHALOM LUANI
WASHINGTON STATE
108: R4P1
EDGE CARROLL PHILLIPS
ILLIONIS
181: R5P37
TE DARRELL DANIELS
WASHINGTON
210: R6P26
CB BRIAN ALLEN
UTAH
226: R7P8
QB ALEK TORGERSEN
PENN
244: R7P26
CB ADRIAN COLBERT
MIAMI
Many Seahawks fans do a big WHAT THE WHAT with the Ogunjobi pick, expecting them to go DB, maybe even OL, but the fact is; C-Dog does cartwheels. Seattle has Jarran Reed and Atubya Rubin at DT and a host of unprovens. Carroll, long frustrated playing the Rams twice a year, and Carolina seemingly once a year for the last several years, has salivated over the DT situations with both these teams. Last year, he felt he got his Brockers/Lotulelei with Jarran Reed, this year he feels like he may have landed his Donald/Short in Ogunjobi. Okay, so I’m entirely aware that it’s probably hyperbole to comp Ogunjobi to Donald or maybe even Short (Although NFL.com comps him to last years SDB favorite Sheldon Rankins), it is worth noting that PFF ranked him as the 4th best DT in the country against the run, while noting his plus ability as a pass rusher. This sounds like the type of interior DL Coach Pete Carroll would covet, and also sounds a bit like Terrell McClain, and a few other FA DTs they were supposedly interested in.
They still nab coveted tone setting Jourdan Lewis to fill the nickel spot for J Lane who moves outside, starting opposite Richard Sherman. R3, they take coveted OG Asiata, coveted Golden Tate-esque WR Taywan Lewis, and coveted athletic gritty safety Luani. At the top of R4, they take coveted edge rusher Carroll Phillips, who coach Carroll will say reminds him a little bit of Bruce Irvin, in background and playing style, and that they had a higher round grade on him.
In the later rounds, they target SPARQ’d up athletes; Daniels a SPARQy move TE that they know a lot about, and SPARQy big Ute DB Brian Allen. In R7, they take a hard working, athletic SPARQY QB sleeper with a strong arm, big hands, tight high delivery, who can effectively run the zone read in Torgerson, and lastly a super charged SPARQ’d up speedster CB in Adrian Colbert with the pick they received from Oakland in the Marshawn Lynch package.
UDFA’s include FB Freddie Stevenson, RB De’Angelo Henderson, LB Jimmy Gilbert, WR Chris Gamble, DT Josh Tupou, OG Jake Eldrenkamp, OT Joseph Dieugot, and K Conrad Ukropina.
Interesting scenario. I like many of those players, with the exception of Taylor. I firmly believe he is a slot-only receiver, and we have the best one in football manning the slot already. Plus, Lockett can back up that position.
+bonus points for Brian Allen. We must get him. Have to. Mandatory.
Agree on Allen. I’d even burn a comp third. So what if it doesn’t work. No worse than Jordan Hill, Moffitt, and few WR’s. But. But if it did work after a year? That’s some length coupled with some damn good short area quickness.
For me it’s Melifonwu, King, or T.J. Watt. If all three guys are off the board. Then I trade down.
Given that scenario I’d probably trade down a bit. I’m a big believer in Chris Wormley and think you would be getting Bennett’s successor with the ability to go inside and out. He’s a three down player that I think paired with Jarran Reed could provide a nasty interior.
It’s funny. Some people say no way on Mixon. But they have no problem taking a chance on Jourdan Lewis. NFL PLAYERS are physically strong. They are capable of choking someone to death with their bare hands. Especially a woman. I don’t see how you can say no to Mixon but then take Lewis.
I guess the only difference is that their is video on Mixon.
Because Mixon has a violent history, the details of Lewis’s case make him seem falsely accused.
“Innocent until proven guilty” appears to be the mantra when it comes to these situations. Mixon is on tape committing his act, whereas the circumstances surrounding Jourdan Lewis do not make him out to be rightfully accused, as Del tre put it. We cannot say with certainty what Lewis may or may not have done, but with Mixon it’s rather obvious what transpired.
I would say the main difference would be that the video of Mixon’s incident makes it certain that he hit the girl, while we have no idea if Lewis did anything wrong. But yeah, carry on.
I second that on Melinfonwu, damn there’s so many players that i want.
You get Obi to play lower on his tape and i think a lot of his problems are solved, plays too tall and fails sometines in run support because of it. I would love to see the Hawks get Obi simply to watch him develop with the coaching staff.
Yes, he is so attractive with his size, athleticism and versatility. Improbable athlete. Can he really play at NFL level? As a positive, he seems bright, and adaptable, and with no overt signs of personality problems. The negative is that he would be a pure experiment in what can be done with a 5th DB, following what Buchanan has done.
Hell with it, let’s get this guy. Somehow.
Some further thoughts on the possibility of moving sherm to trade up (davis hsu and vol12 mentioned it): Tennesse makes a lot of sense, thoughts on a possible trade of Sherm for T Lewan and pick 18;
-they got rid of McCourty although thin at CB (weird move, because the already have enough cap space)
-Lewan will get a new contract in a years time, so why should they wait to lose him for a third?
-they already drafted his heir apparent in Conklin, so they can move on (and they already planned it last year)
-they can evaluate o-liners, so finding a replacement at RT could be doable
-tennesse gets the best CB in the game for the price of an o-liner (whom they would have lost anyway) and their second first round selection
-seattle can grant Sherm his wish and get a good player plus a high pick (what their price tag was)
So the hawks would have the ammo to move up and get who they want (picks 18,26,58,90…). I would be against it, but sadly it’s more likely than ever.
Yeah I really don’t want Sherm to go, not one bit, but if we got Lewan and pick 18 then that would seemingly represent a good trade.
It could set them up pretty nicely for the draft/longterm:
Lose Sherm
Get:
OT Lewan
18 CB King
26 S Melinvonwu
58+102 best DL available (pass-rusher)
90 LB/TE/WR
round 4 LB/TE/WR
round 5 DB (depends on what they see in obi)
round 6 NT
round 7 QB (backup)
round 7 K (competition)
Would be a nice haul and would ease the pain of losing sherm.
That would be a nice move, but there is absolutely zero chance that the Titans would do it. Sherman’s trade value isn’t that high.
I would take Lewan a 2nd and a 3rd.
Hey Rob! Just curious – what were the SPARQ values for off season pick-ups?
Watched ESPN with Adam Caplan talking about the Marshawn Lynch situation saying that the Raiders will want a low base salary and incentive bonuses if he produces. Similarly with a trade to the Seahawks, they will want to trade a conditional 2018 pick, higher if he produces. Would love that trading of our #1 picks this year and/or a mid-lower 2017 pick, but it may not even be a pick this year, could very well be a 2018 pick.
I’ve been hoping a swap of 24 and 26 to start – I’ll take a conditional 2018 based on performance – probably better than a late round 2017
I’m curious. As we all know richard Sherman is asking for a trade. His contract is up in 2 years. More than likely he’s not gonna resign with the Hawks. So why not try to trade him if the opportunity presents itself.
I think for Seattle to trade him in the middle of a championship window, it would have to be a pretty enticing offer, which is why it’s reported that they want a good player and a high pick. Seattle probably isn’t going to trade him for the sake of seeing what they could get. If they don’t trade him, they still get a pro bowl corner for two more years and a chance to groom a replacement if he chooses to sign elsewhere.
middle of a championship window,
I think we have to be honest with ourselves though also. For most of the past two seasons…we didn’t look anything like a championship caliber team. Not saying that is Sherman’s fault…but if we aren’t going to sign him to a third contract (which appears to be the case)…trading him now while he still has some trade value makes a lot of sense.
I would say, though, there was a run towards the end of the 2015 season where the Seattle Seahawks looked like they could be any team in the league until Thomas Rawls got injured, and there was some definite glimpses of largely that same team in 2016 until Earl Thomas got injured. Were those team on par with the 2013 Seahawks? No, but that was a family historic team. IMO, Seattle is still in that window for a championship, and I don’t see how trading Sherman for the sake of it makes sense. Now if trading him involves a solid veteran starter at a position of need, and a draft pick the enables Seattle to get a much coveted player in the draft, that might make better sense, but what team is going to give that up for a 29 year old cornerback?
Because – Deshawn Shead.
The team is largely ready for another deep playoff run. Trying to replace TWO starting CBs to start the year could spoil that.
and like you said, Sherm could be traded next year, once his replacement is in place.
The team is largely ready for another deep playoff run.
not really..they appear to me to have the same issues on offense that they had last year..and the once dominant defense is just another year older
The “same issues on offense” were inflated HEAVILY last year by RW’ s injury. Him being healthy IS our offense now that Lynch is gone.
We didn’t look like a championship caliber team when RW went on that streak at the end of 2015 and dropped 5 TDs on the Vikings? That’s our real offense, we just didn’t see it last year cause RW was hurt.
Fact of the matter is the issues we had on O last year have no way of rearing their ugly heads again so long as Russ has working legs.
Last four seasons…
2013 13-3 won SB
2014 12-4 lost SB
2015 10-6 lost in Divisional (and to be honest..should have lost wild card)
2016 10-5-1 (in a weak division) and got crushed in the Divisional playoff
that is not a good trend..and hardly worth keeping the old expensive vets together for one more try imo
LOL I’m sorry but how is making the playoffs 4 years in a row a bad trend?? If I’m being completely honest, you’re expecting too much. We are SO lucky that we aren’t another team like the Browns or Jags (like we were for a very very long time)
Enjoy winning while it lasts, my friend.
I’m pointing out the trend (which isn’t good)..and from my experience watching NFL football for many, many years..the trend (up or down) tends to continue in the same direction unless something radical is done to stop it.
I lived in 49er country back in the 90’s..you would have laughed at how many fans down there still thought they were in their “championship window”..
Look at the Patriots seasons since they got Brady, they make the playoffs every year and consistently go from winning/ losing the super bowl to losing in the first or second round. Strength of roster is going to fluctuate for every team, as long as you make the playoffs, you have a shot to win out and win the SB . Making the playoffs should be priority #1 and our core ensures that every year. We just need to build up the roster around it (like NE does) to get us deeper into the playoffs.
well..the Patriots philosophy (as far as i can tell)..is we have Brady…everyone else is expendable. So if you’re advocating that for the Seahawks..it’s we have Russell..everyone else is expendable..which is not what I’m picking up from you.
Those words didn’t come from my mouth. All I’m saying about the Patriots is even the best has up and down years, do you think their fans say their window is closed if they don’t make it to the AFC Chaampionship for 2 years?
It can’t be NFC championship or bust every year.
Seriously, fans have such unreasonable expectations. Put yourself in the playoffs and you’re a decent chance to make it all the way. 10-5-1 with a broken QB, broken RBs, the lynchpin of the defence gone, a #1 CB with a busted knee, and a mess of an OL is a pretty decent effort.
I mistakenly wrote that trading Lynch would free up salary cap, i forgot that if he stays retired he doesn’t count against the cap. If he un retires it’s a different story. If he tried to force us into releasing him then i’d trade him to the Browns for a decent pick. I love the guy on the field, he’s even really good to fans all over the globe, but he’s doing this to further the Beastmode brand, i honestly don’t think he has a full season left in the tank, i might be wrong.
This all reminds me of a recent comment John Schneider made during an interview. To paraphrase, he said, “people throw all these numbers at you, and sometimes something stands out.”
I think its good to remember that Schneider and most other Seahawks scouts have been evaluating players long BEFORE there was a SPARQ or other metrics to look at. They evaluate off film, and then evaluate live in workouts. The numbers are interesting backup information.
For example, there is no way they drafted last year’s #1 and #2 players based off numbers. Ifedi was drafted because he dominated at the OT position using tremendous hands, arms, and reach. He had the needed frame, and the coaches believed they could teach him the rest.
Same was true for Jarran Reed. Great hands and technique, along with leadership. He could be taught the rest. They could see this on film. They could see this in workouts. The numbers like SPARQ are nice backup information, but that’s clearly not what our scouts start with.
I think numbers did play into it a little bit. Ifedi was enormous, had great length and had a really explosive combine workout. Reed not so much and was more of a tape assessment I think. But they both fit ideals, had the kind of physical or performance traits they look for. And that is the key — not SPARQ.
Eagles 14 for Sherman/Kearse
Titans 18 for Sherman/Kearse
Raiders 24 for Sherman/Lynch
Saints 32 for Sherman
Chargers 38 and 71 for Sherman
Titans 83, 100 and Lewan for Sherman
I think I would do all those trades.
Drafting 3 DB, 1 LB/DL, 1 WR or 1 TE with your first 5 picks
You’d have to bribe a team to take Kearse…
A legitimate question is: why would any team in to top 20 be willing to take on an aging veteran with a massive salary when they can just draft someone extremely talented; much cheaper, and much younger at the same position?
The Raiders make an awful lot of sense for Sherman..hope to see a bundled Sherman/Marshawn trade happen. Would help both teams I think…
I think Lynch will go for an 2018 6th or conditional 7th upgradable to a 6th, or a 6th with upgradable to a 5th at most. Perhaps just a 2017 6th.
I don’t think anyone is giving up a mid 1st for Sherman. It’s just too rare to ever happen for older players and big salaries. Seattle is asking for a 1st and a good player or a 1st+3rd from what I’ve read. I think chances are slim teams meet that. We would do a lot of damage with a pick like is suggested, though. 🙂
I think the Lynch transaction will be an individual deal, and I don’t expect much in return. Aging backs just aren’t valuable, despite the big name association.
We have so few corners and rookies in our system take a lot of time to develop for the outside positions, especially. Losing Sherman would massively affect out defense in a negative way. I fear we would be committing to an average season rather than a chance at another Super Bowl title.
I agree.. I’m thinking we could possibly get a second for Sherm..which I would take if I were the GM. Bundle it with one of our thirds and move up into the late first/early second…Obi + King (in my dreams)
I kind of agree but the known quantity in any transaction always has it’s buyers. And for Sherman you have a greater track record to show exactly what you are getting vs. King, Conley, Lewis, Jackson, et al. Plus a lot of us our down on Sherman based on his previous historic level of play but outside of Marcus Peters is there really a better corner year to year, game to game than Sherman? Seriously. Not Josh Norman. His one good season wasn’t anywhere near Sherman. And his career. Not at all. Hell Malcolm Butler is being linked to a first round draft pick and that guy is nowhere near Sherman.
is there really a better corner year to year, game to game than Sherman?
playing a bit of “devil’s advocate”..how much of that is due to ET’s presence though. Sherm ran a 4.55 40 coming out of college..what is he now..4.7?? can he really cover a guy like J Ross without significant safety help??
Because he can mirror Ross coming off the line. Can stay on top of him, won’t panic in his back pedal and Sherm watches so much tape he’ll run these young receivers routes for them.
That’s what I like about Witherspoon. He’s a guy who didn’t start playing football until his SR year of HS. He was a soccer player and it shows. Boy does it show.
His footwork is incredible. I’ve seen him bite on maybe 2 double moves? Most of these college corners will get eaten alive on those.
Witherspoon is always talking on defense. Sound familiar?
He is going to be a nightmare down in the red zone for opposing QBs.
He 💯% needs to get stronger and more physical, but he just has that infectious energy that would fit. He’s Kevin King.
Tackling is very important in a corner, but its not more important than ball and coverage skills. Tye Smith was an amazing run defender in college. Where did that get him?
no way..Ross blows right by him.
Sherman will start following the B Browner trajectory imo. More and more grabbing…more and more penalties
Let’s see how Ross deals with bigger, stronger corners at the next level.
I’ll take Antonio Brown over John Ross every day of the week and Sherm played him exceptionally well.
Antonio Brown is better than John Ross at every single facet of the game, and it’s not even really close. Ross maybe gets by Sherman once or twice, no corner is perfect, but I wouldn’t be remotely worried about that match up.
sorry..how many times has Sherman shut down A Brown??
Week 12 of the 2015-16 season: ‘Sherman was thrown at nine times when covering Brown, and allowed only 24 yards, notching an interception in the process. When Sherman was targeted in this game, he yielded a passer rating of 0.0.’
How much greener do you think the grass gets?
Sherman got 2 interceptions off of AB and I believe that’s the only time they’ve played each other
BTW i wasn’t trying to dog on you earlier. I love Witherspoons game when the ball is in the air. And if there was some way to “protect,” him in the run game to minimize that weakness I’d be all about him.
Maybe all of it is ET. But the numbers don’t lie. Sherman currently is the best CB in the game, and every way the equal to whatever people thought of Revis Island. Better even in most metrics.
Misfit74,
While I understand your question and agree somewhat, Sherman is a PROVEN commodity. Names like Dee Milliner, DJ Hayden and Morris Claiborne are why a team would trade. That is just 3 Top-12 CB picks between 2011-2013 drafts that have stunk up the league that were “safe” picks and had unlimited potential…
Fair point there
Question to the community.
What QB do you take 1st?
Me? I take Texas Tech QB Patrick Mahomes.
ha ha..I was just thinking how cool it would be for the Seahawks to take Mahomes with #26. Light a fire under Russell’s butt…
Oh boy. That would be…awkward.
I’d rather Seattle go for Oklahoma’s Trevor Knight, Tennessee’s Josh Dobbs, or Jacksonville St’s Eli Jenkins in UDFA.
well..it’s not that crazy once you think of it. Russell back in his “Fran Tarkenton” days was amazing..as a 30-something traditional pocket qb…I’m not so sure…
I think one of the winningest QB’s out of the blocks in Wilson is going to be great as he ages. A lot of his success as the team changes it’s identity is going to keep him up right. That end to 2015 was awesome. And his season as a badger was pretty amazing.
as a 30-something traditional pocket qb…I’m not so sure…
That will depend on if he has a pocket.
Something tells me RW will have the wheels to pull off his Fran Tarkenton plays well into his 30s.
Depends, if I’m a QB away like Houston, I’d go Trubisky. If i was rebuilding, I’d go Mahomes every day
Watson. proven winner, shines in big games
Watson, all day every day. Wouldn’t even think about it. Especially if I was some potato team like the Niners or Browns. That dude is a leader of men, and he knows how to win. He’d set the standard from the first day he walked through the door.
After that I’d go Mahomes, and build the offence around what he ‘can’ do – rather than trying to fix what he ‘can’t.’
Give me Seth Russell all day.
His backup looks good for next year.
Oh first?
I really don’t like any of the top QB’s
Probably Trubisky
.The draft? For Seattle? What’s the parameters?
Me, I take Watson first. Big time production. Good TD to Int ratio. Lost the big one and got right back to win it the next chance out against the best.
Mahomes second.
For Seattle I like josh Dobbs
My favorite qb in the draft is watson.
Dobbs for seattle
How about http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2239609/jerod-evans in the 6th-7th?
Right. For rebuilding team, Trubisky. Then Kizer, then Mahomes.
For us as a later round guy? Jerod Evans.
let’s say we flat line here…make it to the playoffs…early exit…2018 comes and it’s time to resign Russell..do you give him the $25-$30 million per year he’ll be looking for..based on one SB win..a long time ago??
How many Super Bowls has A.A.Ron Rodgers won? Drew Brees? One & one & they were further back than ours & haven’t returned to the big game. When should their teams dump them?
To answer your question, yes, barring catastrophic injury you PAY your franchise QB.
I would like to see him turn this ship..so conf finals next year..sb the next year..
then we talk..early exit out of the playoffs from a weak NFC West?? nope..
I’m not as patient as you. I want it all this year!
Feel like it’s the last year with the whole LOB generation on D. Let’s cement that legacy!
Yes, you keep paying Russell like the top-5 QB that he is and the quality of character and leader his is on and off the field. Not based on anything else, really.
sorry..Russell is signed thru 2019..so assume two seasons of flat-line (make playoffs/early exit)…time to re-up Russell..
i kind of like having a guy like Mahomes on the roster..though maybe next year might be the better year to spend a high draft pick..
Mahomes isn’t going to be Wilson. Like, do you honestly think he’s that much better a college player than Boykin was? Because I don’t.
Thanks to modern sports science/no-strawberry diets/PEDs, quarterbacks are going to play into their 40s more and more regularly. You get them to sign team friendly contracts, and then you get your owner to fork out the millions in endorsement deals, and contract out work to player-owned businesses. Wilson still has a lot to work on, but he’s on track for a historically good/HOF career.
allow me to play devils advocate here (again)..
let’s say an immobile Russell (like most of ’16 season) is what we can expect of him in his 30’s..is that worth $25 million + per year??
If I was JS.. I certainly would be thinking of drafting a challenger either this year or next…
He had a torn MCL, a high ankle sprain, and a torn pec. And that’s just what they were reporting. It was borderline miraculous that he was able to play, a totally different issue to being 35.
Sprained MCL. Strained pect. Com’on man…..
I remembered wrong then, my bad. But really, do you honestly think the team were telling the truth about the severity of the injuries? All teams lie, the Hawks as much as everyone.
the point being..he was an immobile qb..much like we should expect him to be for most of his 3rd contract..
But he won’t be that immobile. I’m sure you have as well, but when I sprained my ankle I couldn’t even put weight on it. No doubt they had it strapped up to a point where it was immobile, and they had him on so many painkillers he forgot he had a leg, but that’s a totally different experience to just being in your 30s. And that’s just a sprained ankle, no mention of the knee, or the pec, or everything else that comes with being obliterated by giant angry men a few times a week.
He’s going to have to change things up a bit, but drafting his replacement because he got injured last year is wild stuff.
well..it’s always compete right??
Assume it’s going to take $25 million plus per year to resign RW…vs say $3 million on a first year contract for his replacement…that’s four or five really good players we could add.
Also..a big unknown is what the salary cap will look like after 2020. Lower tv ratings and expiration of the current CBA don’t bode well..
Why though? Maybe Seattle gets real and decides to build a passing team. If you look at Brady’s arc it’s pretty familiar to Wilson’s. Ball control and heavy defense. Then explosive passing game era with Moss and a more healthy Gronk. Then this super quick strike version of the west coast with Welker, and now this hybrid heavy hitting run game that can switch into the “weave,” passing game.
The constant. They make continuity on the Oline a bit more of a priority, and more importantly, they add weapons all the time and change their play calling often. Three things that aren’t Seattle’s strong suit yet….
Let me play devil’s advocate with your devil’s advocate.
Let’s say Russell Wilson is able to maintain his unique mobility well into his 30s, and Seattle spent it’s first round pick on a QB like Mahomes who rarely sees the field, if at all. IMO, that can easily happen. Aaron Rogers at age 33, has been severely banged up in prior seasons, and hasn’t lost his mobility coming back from those injuries. I don’t see any reason to think RW can’t do that same.
I think Seattle might take a QB in this draft, might even be day 2, if by chance a talent like Mahomes slips into R3, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Seattle will not draft a QB with its first pick in this draft.
WTF, no strawberry diets! I love strawberries. F that diet.
It’s part of the diet that Brady’s snake-oil merchant has him on. Definitely what has him re-discovering a deep ball aged 85. Absolutely nothing else going on there, no siree.
I think the Hawks look for 3 things in a potential draftee. Grit, love of the game(competitive, work ethic, intellect), then last freaky atheletic traits. I think to draft a player they have to have at least 2 of these qualities for them to succeed. Then sometimes you see them reach on guys like Christian Michael and they take a chance on a freaky athlete when they have a guy like Marshawn Lynch in front of him and they hope he rubs off on them. I think they are all over the board with how they choose the traits that are more important. I think you look at where they are and it’s time to stock the defensive shelves so to speak. I think they have a ton of options on the oline for competition and at running back and at tight end. Wide out needs some competition and like Carroll said: they will be looking for linebacker competition and DB competition. I believe they have supplied the competition for the oline through free agency. I think they were happy with their dline with the exception of a pass rushing DT and always looking for pass rushers. So the position of strength like linebacker they might take a chance on an athletic freak. DB they just need able bodies. Dline you might see some athletic freak reaches. Because linebacker and Dline are probabaly the strongest position groups as well as safety. 5the draft is right around the corner! closer and closer. Exciting!!!
Christian Micheal gets a bunch of grief from the NFL, some of it warranted. However, he is still in the NFL, unlike hundreds of other players who wash out each year (or never even make the dance). If he gets his head right, he can still be a very dynamic player…. well worth the deal GB signed him to.
Predict the pick try 2,874
(minor trade down with CLE, 26 for #1 pick 2nd + #1 pick 4th round /
I’m assuming Obi and King are gone in this scenario, otherwise they stand pat)
Round #2 (2) (#33) Adoree Jackson, CB USC Round #2 (Native pick) Ahkello Witherspoon CB Colorado
Round #3 (3) Davis Webb, QB Cal, Samaje Perine, RB Oklahoma, George Kittle, TE Iowa
Round #4 (1) (CLE Pick) Eddie Vanderdoes, DT UCLA
Round #5 (0)
Round #6 (1) Samson Ebukum, OLB Eastern Washington
Round #7 (1) Bug Howard, WR, North Carolina
Mahomes over Boykin. Not even close man!!!!!
Witherspoon is a third rounder.
He’s whatever round he goes in. He has 1st round coverage skills. I still like him as a Hawk & would be stoked if we did get him in the 3rd.
If he turns out great then any round we got him in would be perfect.
are cb’s even asked to make that many tackles at the LOS?? Malcolm Butler averaged three tackles per game last year (and made all-Pro)..I’m guessing one or two of those had to be on pass coverage….
+1
He has to improve his willingness to stick his nose in there more and get dirty, but I’ll take top flight coverage along with his size and length over a great tackler who is poor in coverage. Witherspoon if we draft him will turn out great.
re: Sherman vs A Brown..2015…I’m seeing Sherman credited with 1 int and 2 passes defensed during the game.. A brown 6 recs for 54 yards (no specific Sherman vs Brown stats though)..
and who the heck was covering Markus Wheaton that game..9 recs for 201 yards…Roethlesberger thew for 490 in total.. :<o
Sherman had 2 INTs covering Brown. One was on a 2 pt conversion so it wasn’t counted.